Hellfire cheese

[ThreeDSix]

Hello there everyone!




I posted a few times a while back asking for advice on building a character for a campaign - well, here's the update on that character:

he's dead.

And I realized: My melee characters die. All. The. Time.

So I had an epiphany: Build a ranged character!
Trouble is, I always only build melee characters and have never played a mage in my life (Well, only once and that campaign was discontinued after three sessions), so I decided the simplest way to build a blaster while keeping it within my limited span of attention was a warlock.

So here's the idea: Build progression is:
1 Paladin of Freedom, 1 Warlock, 1 Paladin of Freedom, 6 Warlock, 1 Hellfire Warlock, 10 Legacy Champion

-- Please Note: All this is DM approved. For fluff reasons, he allows me to take the second level of paladin after taking the Warlock. The Warlock and Hellfire Warlock classes have also been refluffed away from their 'tap into your fiendish heritage' roots into a more ' tap into your own inner power - take power from the land' sort of angle.

The reasoning for the character having the levels he does is in the spoiler

This character use to be a daring, young knight with ideals of chivalry and romantic ideas of glorious combat. Years ago, he got his wish to go on a crusade and crossed the ocean with an army to make war on the eastern city states that dwell across the ocean. Whether the crusade succeeded or failed doesn't matter. What does is that this knight was beaten and captured and sold into slavery, where he spent the better part of fiteen years toiling under the lashes of cruel and callous masters.
Eventually, he managed to escape and fled the city with several other escapees, eventually settling on it's outskirts - since the slavers that control the city don't want to stir up trouble by enslaving their own - and becoming a goat farmer, marrying a local, having kids.

But he was unhappy. He regrets not living up to the ideals of his youth and is determined to save those poor souls still trapped in the city just over the horizon. This determination burns within him so greatly that he will use almost any means to see to the successful completion of his goal, even learning to tap into the eldritch energies of the land and controlling it with pure force of personality.

I will be advancing Hellfire Warlock PrC levels with the Legacy Champion, so I do realize that once he's used his Hellfire ability a few times everything had better be dead.

So the question becomes: What feats do I take? Better: How do I keep him alive?
I've read the Handbooks and several ideas sparang to mind:

-Improved Familiar: to break the action chain. Maybe a monkey familiar to stick a wand of restoration up my nose now and again
-Quicken and Empower Spell-like Ability: Two Eldritch blasts and more d6's cant be a bad thing, can it?
-Fey heritage feat chain: extra DR/cold iron and increased CL could help
-Weapon focus(Ray): To make sure I hit
-Point blank shot: ditto above

Any other ideas or something I havent thought of yet? Comments? Suggestions?

[hex0]

I like using a bit of scout for ranged warlock builds, since skirmish is essentially a boost to your blast. I suggested one a bit back that used Dragon Devotee as well. You are going for a fey feel though and your build looks dandy.

[ThreeDSix]

Gravy. :)

Might I enquire as to the source of the Dragon Devotee?

[hex0]

Gravy. :)

Might I enquire as to the source of the Dragon Devotee?

Races of the Dragon. Gives a bunch of stuff.

[Psyren]

Get a level of Binder in there (and bind Naberius) so that you heal the Con damage after each shot. Make sure your Con is odd so your modifier doesn't keep fluctuating at low levels.

Also, to get it out of the way:

*Strongheart Vest suggestion*
*debate/flames ensue*
*{Scrubbed}*

[The Glyphstone]

Since you're read the handbooks, presumably you've already rejected a 1-level dip in Binder for Naberius's Fast Ability Healing. Any particular reason why you avoided that instead of giving up, say, 1 level of Legacy Champion?

[ThreeDSix]

Races of the Dragon. Gives a bunch of stuff.

Thanks! Will take a look at that, then.

[The Underlord]

I would recommend somehow fitting in a 1 level dip in the binder class so you can bind Naberuis, who IIRC lets you heal 1 point of ability damage per round(which should help with your surviablity). edit swordsaged!

[ThreeDSix]

Since you're read the handbooks, presumably you've already rejected a 1-level dip in Binder for Naberius's Fast Ability Healing. Any particular reason why you avoided that instead of giving up, say, 1 level of Legacy Champion?

I'd have to take a look at that class again, as it's never been used by my gaming group. It'd fit the flavour. Thanks for the suggestion.

EDIT: And I didn't reject it, I just forgot... :smalltongue:

[gallagher]

remember that even though you can use hellfire every time, you dont have to. be aware of your surroundings and enemies, especially since you arent dipping into binder. a wand of restoration may not seem like much cost until you find out how many times you have the opportunity to kill it with hellfire

[Kittenwolf]

If you ever feel like wandering near Melee again, grab Eldritch Glaive :)

A Warlock/Hellfire warlock in my last campaign had a habit of using a Maximised Hellfire Eldritch Glaive to one-shot dragons.

[ThreeDSix]

If you ever feel like wandering near Melee again, grab Eldritch Glaive :)

A Warlock/Hellfire warlock in my last campaign had a habit of using a Maximised Hellfire Eldritch Glaive to one-shot dragons.

I definitely will grab that glaive sometime, since I am too much of a glory hound to stand at the back too long - too impatient :smalltongue:

Anyway, my thinking is that until I get BAB +6/+1 Hideous blow may be more useful, since as the build stands for now I will only deal 1d6 Eldritch blast damage until level 5.

EDIT: Wait, you can maximise Eldritch blast? I thought the Maximise Spell only worked for, well, spells?

[ThreeDSix]

remember that even though you can use hellfire every time, you dont have to. be aware of your surroundings and enemies, especially since you arent dipping into binder. a wand of restoration may not seem like much cost until you find out how many times you have the opportunity to kill it with hellfire

Duly noted. I wouldn't want to drain my Con like a tube of toothpaste being driven over by a car, though I can see how it'd be tempting... :smallbiggrin:

[The Glyphstone]

I definitely will grab that glaive sometime, since I am too much of a glory hound to stand at the back too long - too impatient :smalltongue:

Anyway, my thinking is that until I get BAB +6/+1 Hideous blow may be more useful, since as the build stands for now I will only deal 1d6 Eldritch blast damage until level 5.

EDIT: Wait, you can maximise Eldritch blast? I thought the Maximise Spell only worked for, well, spells?

Nonono. Remember the Warlock Mantra:

Hideous Blow Blows Hideously. It's a standard action to use that provokes an Attack of Opportunity to add +1d6 to your standard melee weapon attack. Take anything else instead, then retrain into Eldritch Glaive when you have more dice to throw at it.

[The_Snark]

I definitely will grab that glaive sometime, since I am too much of a glory hound to stand at the back too long - too impatient :smalltongue:

Anyway, my thinking is that until I get BAB +6/+1 Hideous blow may be more useful, since as the build stands for now I will only deal 1d6 Eldritch blast damage until level 5.

Possibly, but remember that Hideous Blow is a regular attack rather than a touch attack: it does more damage, but it's less likely to hit. Even at level 1 there's sometimes a significant difference between regular AC and touch AC: a bunch of guards with scale armor and shields might have AC 16 against most attacks, but only 10 against a touch attack. And the gap only grows as you level up.

The other issue is that using Hideous Blow provokes attacks of opportunities, just like casting any other spell or invocation in melee would. This is a little stupid, since Hideous Blow is meant to be used in melee, but that's how it works (and at low levels, there's a significant chance that you'll fail the Concentration check to cast defensively). Unless you can get your DM to make an exception on this point, I would stay well away from it.

You're right that Eldritch Glaive isn't much use at level 1, but that just means you wait until later to pick it up (at level 5, or later through retraining/Extra Invocation).

[ThreeDSix]

Nonono. Remember the Warlock Mantra:

Hideous Blow Blows Hideously. It's a standard action to use that provokes an Attack of Opportunity to add +1d6 to your standard melee weapon attack. Take anything else instead, then retrain into Eldritch Glaive when you have more dice to throw at it.

:smallyuk: Meh, thankyou for dissuading me. I was about to make a huge mistake. Eldritch Spear? I could do quite a bit of damage over the time it takes them to get to me.

[The_Snark]

Most enemies will be able to close the distance in just a couple rounds by running, but Eldritch Spear is still a nice invocation to have around for those times when the enemy is out of move+blast distance. It works well with Fell Flight, and it's very handy if you ever find yourself participating in ship-to-ship combat at sea.


EDIT: Wait, you can maximise Eldritch blast? I thought the Maximise Spell only worked for, well, spells?

Ordinarily, yeah. But check out the Maximize Spell-Like Ability feat in Complete Arcane. There are equivalents for other metamagic feats too, like Empower (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#empowerSpellLikeAbility) and Quicken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#quickenSpellLikeAbility)

[Thrice Dead Cat]

If Legacy Champion is not allowed by your DM to advance Hellfire Warlock powers, you can sub in Uncanny Trickster without the debate. If the Legacy Champion is golden, then you're set.

Some notes: you will never have all the invocations you will want. It's a fact of being a Warlock.

For raw damage, Eldritch Glaive is hard to beat. Eldritch Spear is great for sniping. Combining it with some of the invisibility invocations can help, too. As it looks like you'll have a high CHA for the purposes of DCs, you may want to consider some of the better save or X invocations.

With what I know so far, sounds like Paladin 2/Warlock X/Binder 1/Warlock +X/Hellfire Warlock 3/Legacy Champion +X, advancing Hellfire Warlock is your best route.

[ThreeDSix]

Most enemies will be able to close the distance in just a couple rounds by running, but Eldritch Spear is still a nice invocation to have around for those times when the enemy is out of move+blast distance. It works well with Fell Flight, and it's very handy if you ever find yourself participating in ship-to-ship combat at sea.



Ordinarily, yeah. But check out the Maximize Spell-Like Ability feat in Complete Arcane. There are equivalents for other metamagic feats too, like Empower (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#empowerSpellLikeAbility) and Quicken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#quickenSpellLikeAbility)

Yeah, found it myself earlier, now debating which two of the three I should keep in the build, as I found I need the Least Legacy feat to fit in there somewhere... :smalleek: One of those situations where one wishes for just one more feat slot. :smallyuk:

[ThreeDSix]

If Legacy Champion is not allowed by your DM to advance Hellfire Warlock powers, you can sub in Uncanny Trickster without the debate. If the Legacy Champion is golden, then you're set.

Some notes: you will never have all the invocations you will want. It's a fact of being a Warlock.

For raw damage, Eldritch Glaive is hard to beat. Eldritch Spear is great for sniping. Combining it with some of the invisibility invocations can help, too. As it looks like you'll have a high CHA for the purposes of DCs, you may want to consider some of the better save or X invocations.

With what I know so far, sounds like Paladin 2/Warlock X/Binder 1/Warlock +X/Hellfire Warlock 3/Legacy Champion +X, advancing Hellfire Warlock is your best route.

Currently debating whether I should include Binder at all and just go for the feat, as I only need one ability from Niberius and - if I do include the Binder in the build - I'll lose my one and only Dark invocation at 20th level :smallfrown: Also, including the Fey Heritage feat chain at levels one through six will allow me to up my Eldritch blast damage at 20th as well... Wait, let me post what I have so far...

[ThreeDSix]

EDIT: Just read the feat properly and noticed I HAVE to take a level in Binder for Niberius to be any good. Fudge! :smallmad:
Makes things simpler for me though...



Race: Human (Middle Age for fluff purposes)
Build progression: Paladin 1, BINDER1, Paladin 1, Warlock 6, Hellfire Warlock 1, Legacy Champion 10

Feats:
1- Point Blank shot, Fey Heritage
3- Fey Power
6- Fey Skin
9- Least Legacy
12- Empower OR Quicken OR Maximise
15- Empower OR Quicken OR Maximise
18- Empower OR Quicken OR Maximise

I can be more specific, please ask if you need 'em.

[Socratov]

ehm, Eldritch spear is like Fool's gold: it seems all powerful and nice, but, you don't get spot as a class skill, so you won't be able to see, much less hit on 250'. instead take sickening or it's frightful blast to use on low levels. Obviously take voracious dispelling and baleful utterance (both are a huge help!). Indeed do dip binder for naberius. pick up eldrich glaive when able (althoug warlock+melee is slightly dangerous, just saying). Odd con score is allready mentioned. Now, feats, maximise SLa is indeed great, but take empower first. If you are human, do take the fey feat chain, they are awesome and will help you stand firm into melee. since you will use eldritch glaive, you won't need PBS, so isntead get another fey heritage feat. AS for invocations, be on the lookout for chilling spiked greased tentacles of forced intrusion (chilling tentacles for short) beacuse of it's super awesome powers. Also take any dispelling thing you can get (voracious dispelling and devour magic), and before you can take fly, take spiderclimb instead, switch it for fly when able. As for blasts, take vitriolic blast, (spell resistance, what is that?) and take hellrime instead of brimstone, then the rotation will be: hellrime -> vitriolic. also take flee the scene and charm. Other nice wannahaves are beguiling influence, curse of despair, word of changing (polymorph the warcraft 3 way :smallamused: ) and dark foresight. oh, and if you are willing to lose 1 level of paladin, do so in favor of binder. You could actually also take a look at uncanny trickster, who can advance hellfire blasts... (read carefully into the 'per level' part :smallcool: )

[Douglas]

Feats:
1- Point Blank shot, Fey Heritage
3- Fey Power
6- Fey Skin
9- Least Legacy
12- Empower OR Quicken OR Maximise
15- Empower OR Quicken OR Maximise
18- Empower OR Quicken OR Maximise
People don't usually actually spend a levelup feat on Least Legacy. Just perform the first unlocking ritual for your chosen legacy item and you'll get it free. Least Legacy and the follow-on feats aren't really feats so much as they are a tracking mechanism for completed legacy rituals.

It's hotly debated with no official ruling either way, so ask your DM for his personal ruling before trying this, but the Soulmeld (from Magic of Incarnum) called Strongheart Vest may (depending on DM interpretation) prevent the constitution damage from Hellfire Blast, and it can be acquired with the feat Shape Soulmeld without having to spend any levels on it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

A two-level dip in Chameleon is not the worst thing that can ever happen for a Warlock. The floating feat is hella useful for a bunch of stuff. Primarily for using with Extra Invocation so you have a 'floating invocation' of up to one level lower than your highest level invocation which you can change on a daily basis. This gives a huge amount of flexibility back to the otherwise rigidly constrained Warlock class.

[hex0]

I'd take the Warlock level first since they have the best skill lists of the three classes you are using...

[ThreeDSix]

ehm, Eldritch spear is like Fool's gold: it seems all powerful and nice, but, you don't get spot as a class skill, so you won't be able to see, much less hit on 250'. instead take sickening or it's frightful blast to use on low levels. Obviously take voracious dispelling and baleful utterance (both are a huge help!). Indeed do dip binder for naberius. pick up eldrich glaive when able (althoug warlock+melee is slightly dangerous, just saying). Odd con score is allready mentioned. Now, feats, maximise SLa is indeed great, but take empower first. If you are human, do take the fey feat chain, they are awesome and will help you stand firm into melee. since you will use eldritch glaive, you won't need PBS, so isntead get another fey heritage feat. AS for invocations, be on the lookout for chilling spiked greased tentacles of forced intrusion (chilling tentacles for short) beacuse of it's super awesome powers. Also take any dispelling thing you can get (voracious dispelling and devour magic), and before you can take fly, take spiderclimb instead, switch it for fly when able. As for blasts, take vitriolic blast, (spell resistance, what is that?) and take hellrime instead of brimstone, then the rotation will be: hellrime -> vitriolic. also take flee the scene and charm. Other nice wannahaves are beguiling influence, curse of despair, word of changing (polymorph the warcraft 3 way :smallamused: ) and dark foresight. oh, and if you are willing to lose 1 level of paladin, do so in favor of binder. You could actually also take a look at uncanny trickster, who can advance hellfire blasts... (read carefully into the 'per level' part :smallcool: )

Woot! Thanks for the advice! :) We don't use spots that often in our campaigns - at least not for ranged attacks that I've noticed, so it shouldnt be a problem... I was leaning in the direction of an Essence anyway, since that seems the best way to maximise the blast's effectivness - as I will be sitting on 1d6 for at least four levels...
I haven't taken a good look at the higher level invocations yes because the build isnt even finalised yet, but it's a little like being a little kid in a candy store (for lack of coming up with a better simile).


People don't usually actually spend a levelup feat on Least Legacy. Just perform the first unlocking ritual for your chosen legacy item and you'll get it free. Least Legacy and the follow-on feats aren't really feats so much as they are a tracking mechanism for completed legacy rituals.

It's hotly debated with no official ruling either way, so ask your DM for his personal ruling before trying this, but the Soulmeld (from Magic of Incarnum) called Strongheart Vest may (depending on DM interpretation) prevent the constitution damage from Hellfire Blast, and it can be acquired with the feat Shape Soulmeld without having to spend any levels on it.

I didn't know that. Great! Free feat slot, which I can use for Soulmeld, if my DM goes for it.

*----FLAMES---->Water---->Sizzle...*
thanks.


A two-level dip in Chameleon is not the worst thing that can ever happen for a Warlock. The floating feat is hella useful for a bunch of stuff. Primarily for using with Extra Invocation so you have a 'floating invocation' of up to one level lower than your highest level invocation which you can change on a daily basis. This gives a huge amount of flexibility back to the otherwise rigidly constrained Warlock class.

Seems like the Chameleon is the salt of D&D - makes almost any build better. :smalltongue: Thanks, but that class doesn't fit the fluff idea I have in mind for him.


I'd take the Warlock level first since they have the best skill lists of the three classes you are using...

May be, but my 'knight in search of power to take vengeance on his enemies' fluff idea can't have him be a warlock first and a knight second... :smallwink: