Tippyverse 84', E6 Version

[Curious]

So here's a thought experiment; how would you go about building the hyper-tyrannical Tippyverse using E6 rules? Assuming that Kobolds do not exist of course, since I don't think I'm prepared to imagine a world ruled by tiny dragon wannabees with unfathomable arcane power.

Most of the really essential spells can still be accessed by lower level Wizards and Clerics, such as Lesser Restoration, Remove Disease, Create Food and Water, etc. Detect Thoughts and other useful policing abilities also still exist, but since the power level of wizards hasn't had time to really hit its quadratic growth at this point, I think more mundane classes could still be a very real threat to the authority of Big Brother, especially when there are so few methods of reliable brain-washing.

So, how would you do it playground? As a bonus question, what would the world look like assuming that tippyverse-type methods for rule existed, but not all wizards are united under one rule, leaving the world divided amongst wizard-ruled domains?

[Curious]

Really? 30+ views and not a single post? Alright, here, I'll start.

Since teleportation and fabrication magic are both out of reach, the complete urbanization seen in most Tippyverses is impossible here. This means that there is still a market for skilled workers, and natural resources must still be acquired. This actually opens up even more adventuring options, such as escorting goods between cities and protecting isolated lumber or mining camps.

It is also more difficult to control people in the absence of Mind Rape traps, so I think things like Charm Person traps might be strategically placed in doorways to ensure proper thinking amongst the populace.

[Randomguy]

To enforce obedience, I would use fly. At lvl 6, only casters have any kind of flight, so melee attackers would have trouble reaching them. Against ranged attackers, there's wind wall. Wands of fly and wind wall (Possibly eternal wands) would be issued to high ranking sorcerers and wizards. Warlocks would also be important as enforcers, to fly around and blast people all day long.
Duskblades would be a staple in the military, as well as hexblades, to be meatshields.

To supply for the population (and make them dependant on the casters), a create food and water trap would be placed in every town. (Push a button and a random food item and a beverage come out.) Traps of cure minor wounds would essentially replace hospitals. (They'd be unlimited use, so it doesn't matter that you'd need to activate it more than once.)
You'd need a permit to be able to cast non-authorized spells. Obtaining such a permit would take x years of military service. Longer for races that live longer, less for races with short lifespans.
Having ranks in the UMD skill would be illegal.
Reserve feats would be the weapon of choice for most wizards and sorcerers, but elves would use longbows instead.

If there were several wizard kingdoms, there would probably be lots of war, with battles always raging at the border kingdoms. The ones that were unscrupulous enough to use animate dead might have an edge, but there are countermeasures to undead, even at low levels.

[faceroll]

You can't get a tippyverse if you're limited to 3rd level spells. Too easy for fighters and stuff to utterly pwn casters.

[Mr.Bookworm]

You could make life a lot easier. The Create Food and Water traps still exist.

Charm Person traps and similar, though, don't really work. Too easy to break at CL 6, and when the Fighter actually stands a chance of killing you...

Mages don't dominate nearly enough with E6 to rule the world.

Ultimately, though, I think it would end up looking a lot like Eberron. Lots of low-level magic everywhere. But it would augment normal life, not completely and totally replace most parts of it.

[faceroll]

You could make life a lot easier. The Create Food and Water traps still exist.

But you don't have the spells or the class features to make yourself invincible, so there's nothing stopping a barbarian horde with no magic from roflstomping through and taking your nice things.

[Curious]

But you don't have the spells or the class features to make yourself invincible, so there's nothing stopping a barbarian horde with no magic from roflstomping through and taking your nice things.

That's the reason this thread is here, to see if it's possible to actually create something resembling full-level tippyverse with only 6 levels. I think it is possible; most of the spells that allow you to create the (dys/u)topia are still present in E6, and lets not kid anyone, casters are still some of the most powerful classes, even at lower levels. I tend to think that wizards would end up on top even with the closer power levels. The people who control the distribution of food, propaganda, entertainment, and other services are almost certainly going to gravitate to positions of power.

[Randomguy]

Screw the "Tyrannical" part: A benevolent tippyverse would mean all the mundanes would be lining up to help you.

Compare a society ruled by mages with a barbarian tribe: The tippyverse town has more people, since they have infinite food, and food is one of the greatest population limiters.
Since barbarian tribes are nomadic and villages aren't, a village or town is stationary, and will have fortifications. The tippyverse town also has everyone at just about full health, the barbarian tribe needs to rest for a few days to heal properly.
A tippyverse gets magical and alchemical items, a barbarian tribe only has the weapons that they can loot and make themselves.
Lastly, people of the tippyverse could choose to donate their corpses to the military, to be raised as undead. And all defeated enemies would be joining the town guard, as well.

In short, the barbarians are going to have a hard time getting the nice things.

[Curious]

Screw the "Tyrannical" part: A benevolent tippyverse would mean all the mundanes would be lining up to help you.


Two reasons why the tyrannical part is better:

1: It makes for many more interesting possibilities than if the world is essentially a benevolent utopia, conflict and such, and

2: The mundanes will be lining up to help you anyways, if you're doing it right.

[faceroll]

Screw the "Tyrannical" part: A benevolent tippyverse would mean all the mundanes would be lining up to help you.

Compare a society ruled by mages with a barbarian tribe: The tippyverse town has more people, since they have infinite food, and food is one of the greatest population limiters.
Since barbarian tribes are nomadic and villages aren't, a village or town is stationary, and will have fortifications. The tippyverse town also has everyone at just about full health, the barbarian tribe needs to rest for a few days to heal properly.
A tippyverse gets magical and alchemical items, a barbarian tribe only has the weapons that they can loot and make themselves.
Lastly, people of the tippyverse could choose to donate their corpses to the military, to be raised as undead. And all defeated enemies would be joining the town guard, as well.

In short, the barbarians are going to have a hard time getting the nice things.

You're missing the point.
In a real tippyverse, mundanes conquering wizards is impossible. In E6, it's merely unlikely.

[Curious]

You're missing the point.
In a real tippyverse, mundanes conquering wizards is impossible. In E6, it's merely unlikely.

Expanding on the whole, 'Wizards actually have obstacles to overcome' thing, I'm thinking wands would be very common, due to most casters having rather limited spell slots a day at such low levels.

[Coidzor]

As a bonus question, what would the world look like assuming that tippyverse-type methods for rule existed, but not all wizards are united under one rule, leaving the world divided amongst wizard-ruled domains?

Tippy's main vision was that teleportation could be used to make it so that any point under an enemy's control could be instantly attacked, so that the only way to be defensible would be to constantly have enough guys on hand to repel any attackers who'd teleport in, causing everyone to congregate in the cities and abandon/sacrifice the farmlands, towns, and rural areas.

So, without teleport on the table, warfare's basically about what the designers envisioned in regards to battlecasters, low level fireballs and battlefield control rather than setting up a teleportation circle to your enemy's throne room and sending in a battalion of troops.

This subject came up a little bit ago when someone asked what the tippyverse was because they didn't know and someone found one of the more complete posts of Tippy on the subject...

[Curious]

Tippy's main vision was that teleportation could be used to make it so that any point under an enemy's control could be instantly attacked, so that the only way to be defensible would be to constantly have enough guys on hand to repel any attackers who'd teleport in, causing everyone to congregate in the cities and abandon/sacrifice the farmlands, towns, and rural areas.

So, without teleport on the table, warfare's basically about what the designers envisioned in regards to battlecasters, low level fireballs and battlefield control rather than setting up a teleportation circle to your enemy's throne room and sending in a battalion of troops.

This subject came up a little bit ago when someone asked what the tippyverse was because they didn't know and someone found one of the more complete posts of Tippy on the subject...

Hm, true enough. Then again, massive urbanization is still going to happen, due to the nature of the trap boulevard taking care of most essential needs. I suppose, as you said, that warfare would be much more dominated by soldiers rather than wizards, but for the most part I would think that most aspects of the real tippyverse can be translated into E6.

[hewhosaysfish]

Hm, true enough. Then again, massive urbanization is still going to happen, due to the nature of the trap boulevard taking care of most essential needs. I suppose, as you said, that warfare would be much more dominated by soldiers rather than wizards, but for the most part I would think that most aspects of the real tippyverse can be translated into E6.

Absolutely.
The mini-Tippyverse would be defending a much smaller region of land with a much hicher population density (being limited only by the housing and the sanitation rather than by the food supply).
Instead of a feudal lord taxing and protecting everything within a day's ride of his keep (with however many knights that land could support) I would expect to see massive cities (sometimes) surrounded by a thin ring of tree farms, sheeps farms and/or textile crops which could be protected by a comparatively huge militia.

Some of these cities (the ones with the tree farms and/or the textiles) would sit in the middle of fertile land as real world cities have to. Others would be built around and over mines, completely disregarding the prsense or absense of viable farmland in favour of mineral wealth.
Without the ability to get into crazy teleportation shenanigans, the two types would probably still want to use rivers as conduits for trade.



Having ranks in the UMD skill would be illegal.
I'm curious as to how this would be enforced...
All I can imagine is some sort of witch-trial nonsense, where a suspect is given a Wand of Waterbreathing and then trapped underwater for a few minutes.
If they live, they were obviously able to make illicit use of the wand and should be burned at the stake (once they've dried out...)
If they drown then presumably they were innocent and are posthumously forgiven.

[jiriku]

Instead of a feudal lord taxing and protecting everything within a day's ride of his keep (with however many knights that land could support) I would expect to see massive cities (sometimes) surrounded by a thin ring of tree farms, sheeps farms and/or textile crops which could be protected by a comparatively huge militia.

So a mini-Tippyverse looks like a game of Settlers of Catan?

[lorddrake]

If they live, they were obviously able to make illicit use of the wand and should be burned at the stake (once they've dried out...)
If they drown then presumably they were innocent and are posthumously forgiven.

Not if he lives forever drowning!

I'm not with my books here. Does ressurection work at this level?
If it does, forgiviness by the brother wizard with a help of the step-brother cleric is a whole lot better than what happened on those witch trials...

[gkathellar]

Actually, I'm pretty sure any reasonably prepared magic-heavy society would dominate in E6 warfare. Mages have easy access to the three things that are crucial to any war effort: information, terrain advantage and resources.

[The Glyphstone]

Not if he lives forever drowning!

I'm not with my books here. Does ressurection work at this level?
If it does, forgiviness by the brother wizard with a help of the step-brother cleric is a whole lot better than what happened on those witch trials...

Nope. Raise Dead isn't even available until level 9.

Rather than 'ranks in UMD' being illegal, just make the possession of wands, scrolls, or staves illegal for any noncaster. Only casters are allowed to own or buy/sell them, so if you're not one and you have such an item, it's implicit evidence of treason.

[gkathellar]

Nope. Raise Dead isn't even available until level 9.

Rather than 'ranks in UMD' being illegal, just make the possession of wands, scrolls, or staves illegal for any noncaster. Only casters are allowed to own or buy/sell them, so if you're not one and you have such an item, it's implicit evidence of treason.

On the other hand, the illegality of buying/selling such items as a noncaster could be a limitation of convenience. Some individuals and professions would go out of their way to acquire such items anyway. If the state allowed them to violate those laws, it would mean it could go after them whenever they became an inconvenience.

Adventurers in particular stand out as an example of this: the state lets them have their scrolls and wands and tools, so long as they don't cause trouble. If they start to kick up a fuss? Well, that's an easy, incontrovertible criminal charge to stick on them.

[lorddrake]

I think illusion would be used as propaganda since actual mind control will be off the table. Like television-like "all hail the brother wizard" and dystopia-like "see how much our lives are better since brother wizard started helping us all!"

If I were a brother wizard on those terms (lower level) I'd be much more preocupied by a sneak attack on my personal chamber than a barbarian attack. They can be fiercy, but my town will see them as enemy (and me as savior). They will be my shield! But an assassin can go directly at the big boss...

[Mr.Bookworm]

Nope. Raise Dead isn't even available until level 9.

Rather than 'ranks in UMD' being illegal, just make the possession of wands, scrolls, or staves illegal for any noncaster. Only casters are allowed to own or buy/sell them, so if you're not one and you have such an item, it's implicit evidence of treason.

How do you enforce this? Assuming you pick a +2 Int race, your Wizard can't get more than 21 Int at 6th level. That's 4 cantrips, 5 1st level spells, 4 2nd level spells, and 3 3rd level spells.

A single Warblade 6 (BY CROM!) stands a good chance of beating your face in at those levels. With 12 low-level spells a day, no contingencies, and no high-level divination, you can't reliably prepare what you might need. You can fly, but you have fly for 18 minutes a day, max, assuming you're using all of your 3rd level spell slots on it. This is also at levels where archers can pose an actual threat to you. You can prepare Wind Wall, but that cuts your flight time down 6 minutes for every slot you're not using on Fly. You could prepare Protection from Arrows, but that requires you to know you're facing archers.

So, basically, the idea of the utterly wizard-dominated Tippyverse is unfeasible at levels where you can walk up to a spellcaster and punch them in the face until they die.

[Doug Lampert]

How do you enforce this? Assuming you pick a +2 Int race, your Wizard can't get more than 21 Int at 6th level. That's 4 cantrips, 5 1st level spells, 4 2nd level spells, and 3 3rd level spells.

A single Warblade 6 (BY CROM!) stands a good chance of beating your face in at those levels. With 12 low-level spells a day, no contingencies, and no high-level divination, you can't reliably prepare what you might need. You can fly, but you have fly for 18 minutes a day, max, assuming you're using all of your 3rd level spell slots on it. This is also at levels where archers can pose an actual threat to you. You can prepare Wind Wall, but that cuts your flight time down 6 minutes for every slot you're not using on Fly. You could prepare Protection from Arrows, but that requires you to know you're facing archers.

So, basically, the idea of the utterly wizard-dominated Tippyverse is unfeasible at levels where you can walk up to a spellcaster and punch them in the face until they die.

Headbands of intellect don't exist in your games? Note that the Caster Level listed in the DMG for an item is NOT a prerequisite (per the SRD: The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level). Thus such items can be made by level 5 wizards.

As can eternal wands. As can traps.

While I'm flying for 18 minutes I can also dump a few hundred magic missiles on mister warblade, and he dies.

DougL

[gkathellar]

Except that spellcasters can still do things outside of combat which allow them to utterly dominate the setting. I don't think people are understanding just how powerful 0-level effects like Mending really are, and they're nothing compared with Create Food and Water, or Obscuring Mist, or Control Fire. Wizards won't run the show because they can beat absolutely anyone in a fight — they'll run it because low-level magical effects have the potential to redefine the human experience dramatically.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Headbands of intellect don't exist in your games? Note that the Caster Level listed in the DMG for an item is NOT a prerequisite (per the SRD: The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level). Thus such items can be made by level 5 wizards.

Hm. True. Didn't notice that.


As can eternal wands. As can traps.

Don't give you bonus spells.


While I'm flying for 18 minutes I can also dump a few hundred magic missiles on mister warblade, and he dies.

Sure, if you're carrying around a bunch of wands of magic missile, have prepared Fly, and if the Warblade simply just stands there and takes it.

And, of course, now that you have spent quite a bit of money and spell slots on killing one guy who disagreed with you, I hope you can kill the next guy who has a bone to pick with you. And then the next guy. You simply can't take on everyone who doesn't like you, when a Tippyverse caster can.

You can hide up in a Rope Trick (not long enough to regain spells, though), but that's not actually ruling a society.


Except that spellcasters can still do things outside of combat which allow them to utterly dominate the setting. I don't think people are understanding just how powerful 0-level effects like Mending really are, and they're nothing compared with Create Food and Water, or Obscuring Mist, or Control Fire. Wizards won't run the show because they can beat absolutely anyone in a fight — they'll run it because low-level magical effects have the potential to redefine the human experience dramatically.

This is partly what I was trying to say. Wizards can drastically improve society, but they will never be able to dominate it like they do in the normal Tippyverse.

But then why would Wizards run the show? They have the magic, but that's a commodity, not a world-ruler. For every ten wizards that aren't going to cast unless they're in charge, there's going to be one guy who is going to take large amounts of money and goods in exchange for his services. They might actually be incredibly powerful in an economic sense, but it wouldn't be a magocracy.

The Tippyverse, also seems predicated on the fact that the high-level Wizards can control the economy, thereby forcing things like free food and water on the populace. In an actual market, even with Create Food and Water traps, there would probably not be free food for everyone, since the people who control the traps are not just going to give it away for free.

[The Glyphstone]

But then why would Wizards run the show? They have the magic, but that's a commodity, not a world-ruler. For every ten wizards that aren't going to cast unless they're in charge, there's going to be one guy who is going to take large amounts of money and goods in exchange for his services. They might actually be incredibly powerful in an economic sense, but it wouldn't be a magocracy.


Unless the ten gang up and kill the one for 'undercutting' them. As always, other wizards will be a bigger threat than mundanes, though the mundanes remain a threat.

As far as I can determine, this thread isn't about 100% replicating the Tippyverse in E6 - it's about creating as close to the classical Tippyverse as can be done in E6. Part of that, evidently, is that the wizards will have to maintain control based on what they can offer rather than brute magical force and tyranny.

[gkathellar]

But then why would Wizards run the show? They have the magic, but that's a commodity, not a world-ruler. For every ten wizards that aren't going to cast unless they're in charge, there's going to be one guy who is going to take large amounts of money and goods in exchange for his services. They might actually be incredibly powerful in an economic sense, but it wouldn't be a magocracy.

Because spells are more than just a commodity. Casters can easily and cheaply compress days or even months of labor into seconds of effort. They can design items and objects that lead to actual, post-scarcity economics. They have magic at their disposal which completely changes the face of war, even given its limitations in personal combat.

Magic, as implemented in Dungeons and Dragons, almost inevitably changes absolutely everything about society if used to its fullest powers. As a result, society would almost certainly become highly, if not totally, dependent on magic. Even E6 magic is the internet and the industrial revolution rolled into one world-changing package.


In an actual market, even with Create Food and Water traps, there would probably not be free food for everyone, since the people who control the traps would want money.

But since the traps are free to maintain, a smart businessman would keep his price below what agriculture could realistically manage, to attract more customers and create dependency. And realistically, multiple casters in this position would collaborate: monopoly is always preferable to competition.

[DoctorGlock]

for the tyrannical big brother aspect i believe lvl 6 is when mindbender/mindsight comes online. Having a few invisible inquisitors running around scanning people so they can fry dissidents in the night might not reflect the original tippyverse but is certainly recaptures the 1984 aspect fairly well.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Unless the ten gang up and kill the one for 'undercutting' them. As always, other wizards will be a bigger threat than mundanes, though the mundanes remain a threat.

Oh hi there Shadowrun, nice to see you getting into D&D.


Because spells are more than just a commodity. Casters can easily and cheaply compress days or even months of labor into seconds of effort. They can design items and objects that lead to actual, post-scarcity economics. They have magic at their disposal which completely changes the face of war, even given its limitations in personal combat.


com·mod·i·ty
noun \kə-ˈmä-də-tē\
plural com·mod·i·ties
Definition of COMMODITY
1
: an economic good: as a : a product of agriculture or mining b : an article of commerce especially when delivered for shipment <commodities futures> c : a mass-produced unspecialized product <commodity chemicals> <commodity memory chips>
2
a : something useful or valued <that valuable commodity patience>; also : thing, entity

Spells are very much a commodity. They are a limited resource that costs something non-trivial (it gets trivial as you move up in levels), and that's not even getting into the traps and items. So we end with something like a megacorp, not a bunch of mages being hailed as the new rulers of Tippyland.

Spells would make Wizards the biggest economic force in the world. That does not necessarily translate into actual rulership, although it certainly means they would be incredibly influential.

Wizards would still rule the world, in a certain way. Call it a plutomagocracy, although Latin is probably crying in the corner right now.


But since the traps are free to maintain, a smart businessman would keep his price below what agriculture could realistically manage, to attract more customers and create dependency. And realistically, multiple casters in this position would collaborate: monopoly is always preferable to competition.

Naturally. I wasn't saying agriculture wouldn't be an almost completely dead field (excepting luxury goods), but it wouldn't be "free food for everyone".

So, letsee. What setting has ubiquitous low-level magic (albeit not to the Tippyland extent), a magical industrial revolution, and corporations wielding monopolies over magic?

We just need some halflings riding dinosaurs.

[gkathellar]

So, letsee. What setting has ubiquitous low-level magic (albeit not to the Tippyland extent), a magical industrial revolution, and corporations wielding monopolies over magic?

We just need some halflings riding dinosaurs.

I don't remember any halflings riding dinosaurs in Bas-Lag.

[The Glyphstone]

Oh hi there Shadowrun, nice to see you getting into D&D.



Considering Shadowrun is pretty much the current quintessential Dystopian-punk RPG, and a proper Tippyverse is literally D&D magic employed to form a utopia/dystopia....yeah, that's basically what's going to happen.

[Piggy Knowles]

You could just have zombie technology. That's completely achievable in an E6 game. Zombie factories, zombie power plants (zombies on treadmills!), etc. Just think of any mundane repetitive task that you can suggest a skeleton or zombie to do until the end of time.

It's not full-on Tippyverse, but hey, unlimited energy source!

[faceroll]

FYI- 1984 was not a post-scarcity society by any means. It's absolute control economy meant a hellish life for its citizens.

[Coidzor]

How do you enforce this?

Numbers and control of the biggest and bestest supply of gunswands being the purview of the state, I imagine.

Controlling the state and establishing it are kinda two separate things anyway.

[lorddrake]

I'm curious as to how this would be enforced...
All I can imagine is some sort of witch-trial nonsense, where a suspect is given a Wand of Waterbreathing and then trapped underwater for a few minutes.
If they live, they were obviously able to make illicit use of the wand and should be burned at the stake (once they've dried out...)
If they drown then presumably they were innocent and are posthumously forgiven.

I had an idea how to save the witch trial!

Instead of the waterbreathing the guy can be inflicted by some serious and really painful disease and receive a wand of dispel magic, I guess (big step-brother Druid can help with some contagion - since big brother wizard won't have this one with this level...)

[Jack_Simth]

At 3rd level spells, most of the game-breaking(Making?) spells are Cleric spells. But really, you can have basic needs handled in E6 without any shenanigans beyond making "traps" of beneficial spells:

Shelter: Endure Elements (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/endureElements.htm) (1st: Wizard or Cleric - although you'll probably want to extend this one if the environment is extreme).
Sanitation: Prestidigitation (0th: Wizard) & Remove Disease (3rd: Cleric)
Food: Create Food and Water (3rd: Cleric).
Basic health: Cure X Wounds (which one doesn't matter - Cleric)

Set them up in a line; you walk through the Endure Elements, Prestidigitation (cleaning), Cure X Wounds, and Remove Disease traps on your way to pick up food from the Create Food and Water trap.

Charge a modest fee for access (primarily for control purposes - they need to keep paying you a small amount of money, so they need to keep working).

[Frosty]

Oh hi there Shadowrun, nice to see you getting into D&D.

So, letsee. What setting has ubiquitous low-level magic (albeit not to the Tippyland extent), a magical industrial revolution, and corporations wielding monopolies over magic?
Dragonmarked Houses?