[3.5] Optimize this.

[Basket Burner]

This is a simple challenge.

Fighter 4. No other/different class levels. No templates. Nothing that is race specific (as race is already set, and not really important to this exercise). Archery focused. Assume he has allies supporting him, including other archers. Assume that he has Point Blank and Precise Shot without using feat slots. Assume that he has a ranged 1:1 Power Attack without using a feat slot.

Assuming that any 3.5 WotC sources are allowed, how good of an archer can he be? Or at least, what all good archery things are there that fit into this that I am not thinking of?

[Urpriest]

Hit-and-run Fighter is actually decent for ranged characters, IIRC. Though I might be thinking of another ACF.

Race may be relevant if there's a nice ACF tied to it, shall we assume your race has no ACFs for Fighters?

[Mockingbird]

PUT EVERY FEAT INTO COMBAT EXPERTISE, GET +9000 DAMAGE

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Honestly, 4 levels of fighter at level four? Doable

Racial requirement is any medium sized creature (for enlarge person). Grow to Large, take Knockback, use Dungeoncrasher variant fighter.

If you are okay with more classes, then go Bloodstorm Blade.

[Devmaar]

Dragon #310 has the Targeteer Fighter. Take at least Vital Aim

[herrhauptmann]

Well if it's an archery feat, you've either got it now, or you will soon.
The problem: a lot of good archery things are spells.

Also, a lot of archers have a problem with DR past level 8 or 9. You deal 1d8+str mod (maybe)+magic. Let's be generous and say that's a 7-14 points of damage. Average damage of 11.5 per hit.
If you lack the required keywords, DR will kill you. DR 10/Alignment or material? You're going to do 1.5 points of damage on average. Going rogue (with a little fighter) will net you enough damage to deal decent damage, if you're within 30ft, though you'll either be sacrificing damage (via sneak attack) or accuracy (lower BAB).
At level four, DR/Alignment or material won't be an issue. But DR/slashing and/or bludgeoning will be.

It's a lot of the problem the sword+board fighter has, but you don't even get to power attack to negate some of the issues (though you usually are far enough away to not worry about eating a full attack, so the lower AC won't hurt as much).

[Kaje]

Any way to bull rush with an arrow?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Any way to bull rush with an arrow?

Should be a feat for that in Complete Warrior, if I recall correctly.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Fighter 4, straight from the PHB. Assume a medium size race with no bonuses or penalties, you could throw in Human or Wood Elf or whatever you want, really.

Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot because they're free.

Rapid Shot (1), Weapon Focus: (Composite) Longbow (F1), Mounted Combat (F2), Mounted Archery (3), Weapon Specialization: (Composite) Longbow (F4).

Max ranks in Ride and Handle Animal.

Equipment:
+1 Composite Longbow with an appropriate Str bonus allowance
Magebred (swift) Light Warhorse Warbeast
+1 Chain Shirt
Studded Leather Barding
Arrows

Mount single-moves 80 ft. per round, he takes no additional penalty to attacks. Mount double-moves 160 ft. per round, he takes a -2 penalty to attacks. Mount runs 400 ft. per round, he takes a -4 penalty to attacks.

His allies should be similarly equipped (Fighter 2s with Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, and light warhorses), and encountered out in the open there's very little that can pose a threat to them. If he's Human you can even give him Far Shot and possibly a Dragonbone bow for 260 ft. range increments.

[Daftendirekt]

Fighter 4, straight from the PHB. Assume a medium size race with no bonuses or penalties, you could throw in Human or Wood Elf or whatever you want, really.

Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot because they're free.

Rapid Shot (1), Weapon Focus: (Composite) Longbow (F1), Mounted Combat (F2), Mounted Archery (3), Weapon Specialization: (Composite) Longbow (F4).

Max ranks in Ride and Handle Animal.

Equipment:
+1 Composite Longbow with an appropriate Str bonus allowance
Magebred (swift) Light Warhorse Warbeast
+1 Chain Shirt
Studded Leather Barding
Arrows

Mount single-moves 80 ft. per round, he takes no additional penalty to attacks. Mount double-moves 160 ft. per round, he takes a -2 penalty to attacks. Mount runs 400 ft. per round, he takes a -4 penalty to attacks.

His allies should be similarly equipped (Fighter 2s with Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, and light warhorses), and encountered out in the open there's very little that can pose a threat to them. If he's Human you can even give him Far Shot and possibly a Dragonbone bow for 260 ft. range increments.

Hey, it worked for Genghis Khan.

[AspectOfNihil]

IIRC, you cannot put the warbeast template on animals which are presumed to already be trained for war. For example, warhorses and warponies. Still, I've used a mounted hit-and-run archer before, they are devastating, and damn near impossible to kill without magic when fighting in groups, as you said you are. You lose enlarge person, but hey, it's better to survive a fight damn-near unharmed than to end it fast, but hard.
Just my $0.02.

[Vizzerdrix]

Assume that he has a ranged 1:1 Power Attack without using a feat slot.

Seeing this, why not try to get Fell Shot worked into the build somehow? :smallconfused: Or at least start setting up for it (needs a +5 BAB)?

[jiriku]

Hit-and-run Fighter is actually decent for ranged characters, IIRC. Though I might be thinking of another ACF.

The ACF is Hit-And-Run Tactics. DotU 58. Definitely a solid choice, gives you +2 Initiative and +Dex to damage vs. flat-footed opponents within 30 ft at the cost of your heavy armor and tower shield proficiencies, which you weren't going to use anyway.

[Basket Burner]

Hit-and-run Fighter is actually decent for ranged characters, IIRC. Though I might be thinking of another ACF.

Race may be relevant if there's a nice ACF tied to it, shall we assume your race has no ACFs for Fighters?

Isn't that an ACF for Drow?

I said to ignore race because:

1: Race is set in stone.
2: Said race has nothing that would help.

So just ignore race for the purpose of this exercise.


PUT EVERY FEAT INTO COMBAT EXPERTISE, GET +9000 DAMAGE

Hahaha.


Honestly, 4 levels of fighter at level four? Doable

Racial requirement is any medium sized creature (for enlarge person). Grow to Large, take Knockback, use Dungeoncrasher variant fighter.

If you are okay with more classes, then go Bloodstorm Blade.

Please explain to me in what way melee only abilities, being used in an illegal manner are relevant to an archer. And then explain to me how a Fighter 4 with no other class levels of any kind takes other class levels.


Dragon #310 has the Targeteer Fighter. Take at least Vital Aim

Please explain to me how a dragon magazine feat is 3.5 official WotC material, and then show me what 3.5 official WotC source contains Vital Aim.


Well if it's an archery feat, you've either got it now, or you will soon.
The problem: a lot of good archery things are spells.

*snip*

True. Assume that for the purposes of this exercise, DR is not at all a problem.


It's a lot of the problem the sword+board fighter has, but you don't even get to power attack to negate some of the issues (though you usually are far enough away to not worry about eating a full attack, so the lower AC won't hurt as much).


This is a simple challenge.

Fighter 4. No other/different class levels. No templates. Nothing that is race specific (as race is already set, and not really important to this exercise). Archery focused. Assume he has allies supporting him, including other archers. Assume that he has Point Blank and Precise Shot without using feat slots. Assume that he has a ranged 1:1 Power Attack without using a feat slot.

Assuming that any 3.5 WotC sources are allowed, how good of an archer can he be? Or at least, what all good archery things are there that fit into this that I am not thinking of?

*sigh*

Biff: Thank you. That was actually on topic and written after having read the first post. However mounted archery will not work for my needs. I didn't say this, but that was because mounted archery was so bad I forgot it even existed and not because you did anything wrong.

So assuming that the archers are on foot, what's out there? You mentioned generic number stuff, and Rapid Shot and... Is archery really that bad? I knew it was bad sure, but not that bad.

[herrhauptmann]

Ok, are we helping you with a character, or a contest like the iron chef?

[Basket Burner]

Ok, are we helping you with a character, or a contest like the iron chef?

Neither of those.

[ranagrande]

Isn't that an ACF for Drow?

Not necessarily. The ACF is found in Drow of the Underdark, but there is no racial requirement; anyone can take it.

[jiriku]

There's just really not much to say. Most of archery optimization involves either gear, which you can't afford, or spells, which you can't cast. Given fighter 4, your best bet is to take feats that improve archery, and all of the good ones that you qualify for at 4th level are in the Player's Handbook, so you're surely aware of them already.

since you have power attack, take a Small race with a Dex bonus and a 30' move if you can. Whisper gnome or somesuch. You'll lose 1 dmg per arrow for using a small bow, but the extra accuracy is more useful at low levels. At higher levels when you're plenty accurate, you can just power attack to turn that extra to-hit right back into damage.

[Basket Burner]

Not necessarily. The ACF is found in Drow of the Underdark, but there is no racial requirement; anyone can take it.

It specifically says Drow Fighter on multiple occasions. It is listed in the same section as Drow Bard, and Drow Cleric and so forth. I think it safe to call it a racial substitution level, same as for any other race.

jiruku: I was thinking there were some good non core archery feats somewhere, just that I could not recall them.

[Person_Man]

Any way to bull rush with an arrow?

A bow enchanted with the Knockback enchantment (+3, Complete Warrior pg 135).

However, it's worth mentioning that it's the description is worded in such a way that it's the weapon which performs the Bull Rush, not you. Thus it doesn't benefit from Improved Bull Rush or Dungeoncrasher. Also, it was updated and nerfed in the Magic Item Compendium. So if your DM insists on the most recent source, it's pretty much worthless. Also, there's no way you could afford a +3 enhancement at ECL 4.

On the other hand, when I'm a DM I realize how utterly weak non-Tier 1-2 archers really are, due to the heavy Feat tax, general reliance on Precision damage and magical weapons, and general lack of strong support. So I just give archers extra stuff so that they have more fun, and will often allow them to apply any melee Feat to archery (within reason).

Also, if you use Pathfinder, the Archer archetype Fighter can use limited combat maneuvers (Bull Rush, Trip, etc) at a limited range with a penalty. But Bull Rush was changed to a Standard Action in Pathfinder, so it's useless unless you also have some other class feature or magic item or whatever that reduced it back to an attack action.

[Basket Burner]

On the other hand, when I'm a DM I realize how utterly weak non-Tier 1-2 archers really are, due to the heavy Feat tax, general reliance on Precision damage and magical weapons, and general lack of strong support. So I just give archers extra stuff so that they have more fun, and will often allow them to apply any melee Feat to archery (within reason).

In this case I am intentionally limiting myself by using Fighter instead of say, Cleric that would be a far better archer. I still want them to be able to do something though, and something at actual range which rules out anything that require you use a ranged weapon and yet be 30 feet or less away. I'd prefer to avoid houserules, other than those already mentioned. I was mainly wondering if there were low level archery feats that I missed, or does Rapid Shot + number boosting things really end up being the best possible given this framework?


Also, if you use Pathfinder, the Archer archetype Fighter can use limited combat maneuvers (Bull Rush, Trip, etc) at a limited range with a penalty. But Bull Rush was changed to a Standard Action in Pathfinder, so it's useless unless you also have some other class feature or magic item or whatever that reduced it back to an attack action.

1: Pathfinder is not a WotC 3.5 source.
2: Using material that nerfs mundane characters is not helpful when trying to make a mundane character optimal.
3: Trying to execute actions that don't have a very high success rate to begin with at a penalty is not a viable use of actions. It certainly is not something that should be done when optimizing a character, which includes the things that they do.

Don't bother arguing with this anyone, I don't care to discuss it. It's outside the framework of this discussion. Let's just leave it at that, alright?

[ranagrande]

It specifically says Drow Fighter on multiple occasions. It is listed in the same section as Drow Bard, and Drow Cleric and so forth. I think it safe to call it a racial substitution level, same as for any other race.

Incidentally, the Deadly Knowledge feature listed under Drow Bard and the Master of Spiders feature listed under Drow Cleric can also be taken by a non-Drow.

Racial substitution levels have a "Requirements" section that states that a character must be a member of a given race in order to take the level. The options in Drow of the Underdark do not. In fact, the heading to that section differentiates the alternate class feature from the substitution level and specifically states that there are no prerequisites to use the former.

The rules are pretty clear on these. They are heavily flavored for Drow, but not restricted to them.

[GoatBoy]

PUT EVERY FEAT INTO COMBAT EXPERTISE, GET +9000 DAMAGE

http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/10532356.jpg

[herrhauptmann]

Incidentally, the Deadly Knowledge feature listed under Drow Bard and the Master of Spiders feature listed under Drow Cleric can also be taken by a non-Drow.

Racial substitution levels have a "Requirements" section that states that a character must be a member of a given race in order to take the level. The options in Drow of the Underdark do not. In fact, the heading to that section differentiates the alternate class feature from the substitution level and specifically states that there are no prerequisites to use the former.

The rules are pretty clear on these. They are heavily flavored for Drow, but not restricted to them.
Ditto for the Weapon style feats from DotU.
The heading says:

Similar to substitution levels, they offer an option to the class features granted at a particular level. ACFs have no prereqs, you simply select them at the proper levels in lieu of selecting the standard class features.
If it said "racial sub levels" then you would have a prereq of Race=Drow. But it's an ACF, so anyone can take it.
Pretty weird, don't you think?

[Basket Burner]

Incidentally, the Deadly Knowledge feature listed under Drow Bard and the Master of Spiders feature listed under Drow Cleric can also be taken by a non-Drow.

Racial substitution levels have a "Requirements" section that states that a character must be a member of a given race in order to take the level. The options in Drow of the Underdark do not. In fact, the heading to that section differentiates the alternate class feature from the substitution level and specifically states that there are no prerequisites to use the former.

The rules are pretty clear on these. They are heavily flavored for Drow, but not restricted to them.

I find it very odd. The section is even written similarly, except for the part where they explicitly say that it is race specific. I almost wonder if it is an omission, but apparently it is a rules legal init and damage boost for essentially nothing. Well not so much on the damage bonus. If you're going to be within 30 feet, then use a melee weapon. You're in melee range. But more init is never bad. Unless it costs something else vital, which it doesn't here.

Still no feats except Rapid Shot and basic numbers stuff though right?

[Urpriest]

You could maybe get some mileage out of Knowledge Devotion (you've said before that DR isn't a problem, which must mean you're fighting mostly humanoids/animals, so you really only need Local and Nature). You'd have to crunch the numbers to see whether it's worth it to grab that (perhaps with Educated), what sort of Int you would need to get decent use out of it, whether Thug Fighter is viable, etc.

[suhkkaet]

Assuming race SetInStone:

SetInStone Racial Traits
* Medium.
* Base land speed 30 feet.
* Point Blank Shot, because fluff
* Precise Shot, because fluff
* Can use Power Attack with ranged weapons, because fluff
* Favored Class: Fighter, in fact, SetInStones are so much set in stone, they can only take fighter class levels.


Do you allow the bonus feats as listed under the Generic Classes in UA? (I.e. some class features available as feats)
If so, ...

Consider being good alignment and taking the Smite Evil (Su) feat, then following up with the ranged smite evil from BoED.
Consider taking the Sneak Attack (Ex) feat, then Crossbow Sniper from PHBII (Don't need the Crossbow Sniper feat if you're fighting within 30 feet to use PBS, though). [When levels come; follow up with Improved Sneak Attack and Greater Sneak Attack] Now, find the feats that allow sneak attacking undeads, oozes, constructs, etc.., or default to the arcanist/divinist who can cast those buffing spells.
- Also, since you already have PBS, PS, BAB +4 and sneak attack, take the Deadeye Shot (PHBII), allowing you to deny a foe their Dex bonus to AC on your attack after someone else hits them.
Another possibility is the Favored Enemy (Ex), again for more damage.
- Oh, and because of sneak attack, you can take Sacred Strike (BoED) to deal d8s against evil guys

You can, of course, combine these to mix and match, having a fighter that sneak-attacks + smites evil guys who are also his favored enemy, from a distance.


If none of that is okay, here's a few other things..
RotW:
Able Sniper, to get accuracy.
Defensive Archery, to dodge AoO.
Plunging Shot, if you can get 30 feet above your target.

HB:
Coordinated Shot, to ignore cover from allies.
Ready Shot, to get extra damage.

Mixed:
The feat-chain for PBS (PHB).
Sharp-Shooting (CW), to halve opponents cover.
Crossbow Sniper (PHBII) (but it's better with the sneak attack in the spoiler)

There's also the possibility of taking Wild Talent (XPH), and working your way through the psionic shot (XPH) chain.

Oh, and, if you can Grow to Large, get the Rock Hurling, Improved Rock Hurling, Fling Ally and Fling Enemy feats. (RotW)

Questions;
What about ACF chaining?
Does it have to be bow/arrow or can it also be crossbow? Or, hell, even thrown weapons - given a long enough range increment?

PS. feat list (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats), Ctrl+F, "Ranged", shuffle though, look up specifics in books.

[Basket Burner]

You could maybe get some mileage out of Knowledge Devotion (you've said before that DR isn't a problem, which must mean you're fighting mostly humanoids/animals, so you really only need Local and Nature). You'd have to crunch the numbers to see whether it's worth it to grab that (perhaps with Educated), what sort of Int you would need to get decent use out of it, whether Thug Fighter is viable, etc.

That'd be around 12 + Int (assuming max ranks + collector of stories). Averages out to +2.3 attack and damage, which is... not good, but not bad either.

suhkkaet: Some of those are helpful, yes. I won't say which ones, but that was the sort of thing I was looking for. It does have to be archery though. Crossbows lack the damage to present any sort of credible threat, even with the crossbow specific things, and throwing weapons simply don't have the range to function as ranged weapons. At which point I might as well just go for a generic chain tripper.