The Wall/Denial Specialist

[MesiDoomstalker]

I always liked being a manipulator. And, in 3.5, there are several ways to do this. Tripper, pretty much the entire Enchantment school, Fog line of spells and finally the Wall line of spells. I'm particularly interested in the Wall line. In fact, I'm interested in denial expert.

DM: "The dragon rears its head a lets loose a powerful breath of fire on the party. Everybody make reflex saves."

Me: "No. I use my prepared action to cast Wall of Stone right here between the dragon and us."

Something along that line. Now, looking at SRD, all but 1 Wall spell is Sor/Wiz spell. I remember there was a Sorc spell called "Wings of Cover" or something similiar that does exactly what I want, though only for myself. So I'm thinking a Wizard (Conjurer) or Sorcerer would fit the bill perfectly. My main dilema is, which would be better? Wizard keeps all the tier 1 goodness plus bonus Metamagic, possibly into Incantrix. Sorcerer has sponatenous casting (my own play style and the way I'd play this character is complimented well as a sponateous caster) and Wings of Cover. Downside for Wizard, I'm a horrible planner plus Incantrix isn't banned yet but I might get it banned this way. Downside of Sorcerer, limited spell list (all the wall spells seems to be within the 4-6 range) and I don't know of any good PrC's for this type of character. So, my forumites, which would be better and why?

Some spells I know of that will work well for this build:

Wall of Fire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfFire.htm) (4th, Evo)
Wall of Ice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfIce.htm) (4th, Evo)
Wall of Force (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm) (5th, Evo)
Wall of Iron (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfIron.htm) (6th, Conj)
Wall of Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfStone.htm) (5th, Conj)
Forcecage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forcecage.htm) (7th, Evo)
Solid Fog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/solidFog.htm) (4th, Conj)
Wall of Chaos/Law/Evil/Good (4th, Abj)
Wall of (Greater) Dispel Magic (4th/8th, Abj)
Wall of Gloom (2nd, Ill)
Wall of Light (3rd, Evo)



From memory:
Wall of smoke (1st the lowset, Conj)
Wall of shadows (phantoms? it causes fear when you pass through it) I think its Wall of Doom which is a Bard 5 spell
wall of sand (4th, Conj)
wall of gears (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040706a&page=4) (6th, Conj)
wall of water (4th, Conj)
wall of bone (Not sure where this one is)
living wall (Not sure here either)
(Edited some to remove redunancies and add school and spell levels)


Arcane Thesis on a Wiz/Incantrix build for some of the better Walls will be immensly useful. Widen and Extend Spell metamagic to make them huge and make the duration ones last a long time. Invisible spell with Arcane Thesis and Incantrix can seriously lower Metamagic adjustment and make my obstacles hard for the enemy to see (warning my allies of course, possibly thorugh telepathy). Any other feat or PrC suggestions? Equipment?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

A dragonblooded sorcerer casting wings of cover protects CL creatures instead of just himself, but area spells aren't totally denied. Still, it's a good start. Kobold/Silverbrow Human/Dragonborn/Spellscale/That Dragonblooded Feat, away!

[Urpriest]

There are lots of fun walls in the spell compendium. I'd recommend looking there.

Also, if you want a big variety of wall spells then sorceror is a worse choice, since as a sorc you don't want redundant spells known. A sorc will know maybe two or three spells from that list.

[tyckspoon]

Have you taken a look at Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil recently? Because immediate action prismatic wall sections sounds like exactly what you want.

[MesiDoomstalker]

There are lots of fun walls in the spell compendium. I'd recommend looking there.

Also, if you want a big variety of wall spells then sorceror is a worse choice, since as a sorc you don't want redundant spells known. A sorc will know maybe two or three spells from that list.

*Opens Spell Compendium to "W" :smalleek: :smallbiggrin::smallamused:*

And, yes, with Sorcerer, I'll be mostly largely redunant choosing a bunch of wall spells for my mid range spells. But the key is if Wings of Cover is worth it. I wonder if I could convince my DM to make it a Wiz spell. He probably doesn't even realize there are Sorcerer only spells to begin with. I'm thinking IotSFV would be a nice filler between 15-20. MORE WALLZ!

EDIT: NINJA!

[Psyren]

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is perfect for this. All of their veils can be shaped into walls (up to 70 feet long and 35 feet tall each), plus they are full-casting for walls of a more conventional variety. What's more, at higher levels you can create all of your warding-walls as immediate actions, and even raise two walls at once. Their other bonuses are icing on the cake, such as large buffs to abjuration and Kaleidoscopic Doom.

Ninja'd by tyck, curses!

[MesiDoomstalker]

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is perfect for this. All of their veils can be shaped into walls (up to 70 feet long and 35 feet tall each), plus they are full-casting for walls of a more conventional variety. What's more, at higher levels you can create all of your warding-walls as immediate actions, and even raise two walls at once. Their other bonuses are icing on the cake, such as large buffs to abjuration and Kaleidoscopic Doom.

Ninja'd by tyck, curses!

Techinically, you got ninja'd after I got ninja'd by Tyck. But that aside, I'm thinking alternating Iniatiate and Incantrix until Initiate is finished then filling out with Incantrix. Would it be better to take Master Specialist (Abjurer) as soon as possible to get Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration) or go Conjurer for 5th level free metamagic? Also, good metamagics? Which spell should I apply Arcane Thesis to, if any?

[hex0]

Hard requirements, but Techsmith gets you bonus Creation domain, if you can fit it in.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Hard requirements, but Techsmith gets you bonus Creation domain, if you can fit it in.

As a Wizard, the Creation domain doesn't give me access to more spells.

[Necroticplague]

From memory:
Wall of smoke
Wall of shadows (phantoms? it causes fear when you pass through it)
wall of sand
wall of gears (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040706a&page=4)
wall of water
wall of bone
wall of ice
living wall

[hex0]

As a Wizard, the Creation domain doesn't give me access to more spells.

+2 caster level for creation though, was what I was getting at.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Ok, I've noticed something about Incantrix. Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010803) is WotC excerpt for Incantrix from Magic of Faerun. I don't have that book but I do have Player's Guide to Faerun which also has the Incantrix class but the one in that book and the one in the excpert seem totally different. With the one from Magic of Faerun, I can take Initiate all the way and still get Improved Metamagic but everything else seems more lackluster to the one in PGtF. Any insight on which one is the 'official' one? I would assume MoF would be printed after PGtF.

[Psyren]

Other way around, actually. PGtF is 3.5, MoF is 3.0 - the PGtF version takes precedence.

[NNescio]

Ok, I've noticed something about Incantrix. Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010803) is WotC excerpt for Incantrix from Magic of Faerun. I don't have that book but I do have Player's Guide to Faerun which also has the Incantrix class but the one in that book and the one in the excpert seem totally different. With the one from Magic of Faerun, I can take Initiate all the way and still get Improved Metamagic but everything else seems more lackluster to the one in PGtF. Any insight on which one is the 'official' one? I would assume MoF would be printed after PGtF.

PGtF. The MoF version is 3.0, and technically not kosher since it has already been updated in PGtF.

Edit: Swordsage'd.

[hex0]

Probably fit some Master Specialist before Incantatrix.

[herrhauptmann]

Ok, I've noticed something about Incantrix. Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010803) is WotC excerpt for Incantrix from Magic of Faerun. I don't have that book but I do have Player's Guide to Faerun which also has the Incantrix class but the one in that book and the one in the excpert seem totally different. With the one from Magic of Faerun, I can take Initiate all the way and still get Improved Metamagic but everything else seems more lackluster to the one in PGtF. Any insight on which one is the 'official' one? I would assume MoF would be printed after PGtF.

Notice how it's an awesome PrC? It's so awesome keep reprinting it.
The MoF (3.0) one has been replaced by the PGtF version (3.5).

Ouch, double ninja.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Other way around, actually. PGtF is 3.5, MoF is 3.0 - the PGtF version takes precedence.


PGtF. The MoF version is 3.0, and technically not kosher since it has already been updated in PGtF.

Ah. Well thank you. Would Wiz 5/Incantrix 10/Initiate 5 be good or is Initiate 6/7 better than Incantrix 9/10? Full Initiate gets me 4/day warding, Kaliedoscopic doom, and all the colors and double warding. Full Incantrix gives me Improved Metamagic which, besides more metamgic feats, is pretty much the only reason to take it.

[tyckspoon]

I'd say Master Specialist (Abjurer); you get your more annoying and useless prereqs for Initiate out of the way as bonus feats in the first 3 levels. Something like Human Abjurer 3/Master Specialist 3/Incantatrix/Initiate/Incantatrix; Iron Will and a metamagic at 1st, Spell Focus (Abjuration) at 3rd.

Useful metamagics: Quicken, naturally.. Invisible Spell just weirds up the game immeasurably, which will either be fun and useful or make your DM hate you. Most of the typical damage-spell stack isn't too useful on walls and other control spells; you can grab them if you want to get some more offensive throw weight, but don't expect to get too much use from Twin/Maximize/Empower. Similarly, Arcane Thesis has the biggest impact when you have one key blasting spell you intend to cast over and over; I'd skip it for what you want to do, as I can't imagine there being one single go-to wall that you'd want to enhance like that (alternatively, slap it on one of the traditional Incantatrix killer spell bases and use it for blasting stuff when that's more useful than a wall.)

[MesiDoomstalker]

I'd say Master Specialist (Abjurer); you get your more annoying and useless prereqs for Initiate out of the way as bonus feats in the first 3 levels. Something like Human Abjurer 3/Master Specialist 3/Incantatrix/Initiate/Incantatrix; Iron Will and a metamagic at 1st, Spell Focus (Abjuration) at 3rd.

Useful metamagics: Quicken, naturally.. Invisible Spell just weirds up the game immeasurably, which will either be fun and useful or make your DM hate you. Most of the typical damage-spell stack isn't too useful on walls and other control spells; you can grab them if you want to get some more offensive throw weight, but don't expect to get too much use from Twin/Maximize/Empower. Similarly, Arcane Thesis has the biggest impact when you have one key blasting spell you intend to cast over and over; I'd skip it for what you want to do, as I can't imagine there being one single go-to wall that you'd want to enhance like that (alternatively, slap it on one of the traditional Incantatrix killer spell bases and use it for blasting stuff when that's more useful than a wall.)

I always love Focused Specialist but 4 schools means I'll only have 3 left, which forces me to take Abjuration, Conjuration, and Evocation as thats my specialty and most of the Walls come from the other two. So instead, regular with Incantrix takes all but 4. So I'm thinking dropping Necromancy, Enchantment, and Illusion. Or would Illusion work better than Transmutation here?

[NNescio]

I always love Focused Specialist but 4 schools means I'll only have 3 left, which forces me to take Abjuration, Conjuration, and Evocation as thats my specialty and most of the Walls come from the other two. So instead, regular with Incantrix takes all but 4. So I'm thinking dropping Necromancy, Enchantment, and Illusion. Or would Illusion work better than Transmutation here?

Focused Specialist ≠ Master Specialist.

The former is a Wizard ACF, while the latter is a PrC from Complete Mage.

[hex0]

Focused Specialist ≠ Master Specialist.

The former is a Wizard ACF, while the latter is a PrC from Complete Mage.

Although you can be a Focused Master Specialist.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Focused Specialist ≠ Master Specialist.

The former is a Wizard ACF, while the latter is a PrC from Complete Mage.

I know the difference. I admit that my response was missing part of my thought process of "all my specialists are Focused Specialist so if I do Master Specialist, I have to analyze the pros and cons of Focused"


Although you can be a Focused Master Specialist.

Ya, this.

[MesiDoomstalker]

So far I have Human Abjurer 3/Master Specialist 3/Incantrix 3/Initiate 7/Incantrix +4. At first level, Spell Focus (Abjuration). My 1st, 3rd or 6th feat has to be a metamagic and Iron Will. Any suggestions on which to take when?

Current considerations are: Widen, Extend, Invisible, Scuplt, Delay, Explosive, Twin, Entangling, Fell Drain/Frighten/Weaken and Quicken. Non-metamagic considerations include: Arcane mastery, Spell Focus (Evocation, Conjuration).

Also, any suggestions for non-Wall spells? Something that forces the opponent to move into a wall (for the ones that do stuff that pass through/come in contract with) or put the enemies and your allies on opposite sides?

[NNescio]

So far I have Human Abjurer 3/Master Specialist 3/Incantrix 3/Initiate 7/Incantrix +4. At first level, Spell Focus (Abjuration). My 1st, 3rd or 6th feat has to be a metamagic and Iron Will. Any suggestions on which to take when?

Current considerations are: Widen, Extend, Invisible, Scuplt, Delay, Explosive, Twin, Entangling, Fell Drain/Frighten/Weaken and Quicken. Non-metamagic considerations include: Arcane mastery, Spell Focus (Evocation, Conjuration).

Also, any suggestions for non-Wall spells? Something that forces the opponent to move into a wall (for the ones that do stuff that pass through/come in contract with) or put the enemies and your allies on opposite sides?

Try tactical teleportation spells like Benign Transposition (SpC), Baleful Transposition(SpC), Dimension Step (PHB II), Scattering Trap (PHB II), Translocation Trick (SpC), and Dimension Shuffle (PHB II).

Melf's Unicorn Arrow (PHB II) lets you bullrush opponents at range.

Summoned Elementals are also good at pushing opponents around. Moreso when combined with Heroics (SpC).

You might want Anticipate Teleportation (SpC) or Dimensional Lock to prevent your opponents from bypassing your walls by teleporting.

Reverse Gravity is the classic "Launch your opponent into a prismatic death" spell. Gets very nasty as the wall technically blocks LoE...

[MesiDoomstalker]

Try tactical teleportation spells like Benign Transposition (SpC), Baleful Transposition(SpC), Dimension Step (PHB II), Scattering Trap (PHB II), Translocation Trick (SpC), and Dimension Shuffle (PHB II).

Melf's Unicorn Arrow (PHB II) lets you bullrush opponents at range.

Summoned Elementals are also good at pushing opponents around. Moreso when combined with Heroics (SpC).

You might want Anticipate Teleportation (SpC) or Dimensional Lock to prevent your opponents from bypassing your walls by teleporting.

Reverse Gravity is the classic "Launch your opponent into a prismatic death" spell. Gets very nasty as the wall technically blocks LoE...

Oh fun! These all look amazing. Hopefully only a few of them are in the 4-6 range (all the dang walls are in that range! :smallfrown:).

Also, I can't belive I missed Prismatic Wall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prismaticWall.htm)! :smalleek: Summon Monster III/V/VI/VII/VIII/IX all give me Elementals. Any advice on if their "force opponents to move" ability are relevent at their respective levels?

[hex0]

Oh fun! These all look amazing. Hopefully only a few of them are in the 4-6 range (all the dang walls are in that range! :smallfrown:).

Also, I can't belive I missed Prismatic Wall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prismaticWall.htm)! :smalleek: Summon Monster III/V/VI/VII/VIII/IX all give me Elementals. Any advice on if their "force opponents to move" ability are relevent at their respective levels?

Put up a wall and make your opponents fight elementals? love it.

[erikun]

Prismatic Wall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prismaticWall.htm)
Prismatic Sphere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prismaticSphere.htm)
Wind Wall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWall.htm)


Also, any suggestions for non-Wall spells?
Sleep (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sleep.htm) (1st level)
Web (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/web.htm) (2nd level)
Gust of Wind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gustOfWind.htm) (2nd level)
Sleet Storm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sleetStorm.htm) (3rd level)
Black Tentacles (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blackTentacles.htm) (4th level)
Solid Fog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/solidFog.htm) (4th level)
Dimension Door (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionDoor.htm) (4th level)
Resilient Sphere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resilientSphere.htm) (4th level)
Telekinesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telekinesis.htm) (5th level)
Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleport.htm) (5th level)
Acid Fog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidFog.htm) (6th level)
Telekinetic Sphere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telekineticSphere.htm) (8th level)

A lot of these do something similar to walls (Web, Solid Fog) without actually blocking the area. Gust of Wind and Telekinesis are for shoving opponents around. Dimension Door and Teleport are another way of Just Saying NoTM to an opponent.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Prismatic Wall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prismaticWall.htm)
Prismatic Sphere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prismaticSphere.htm)
Wind Wall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWall.htm)


Sleep (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sleep.htm) (1st level)
Web (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/web.htm) (2nd level)
Gust of Wind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gustOfWind.htm) (2nd level)
Sleet Storm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sleetStorm.htm) (3rd level)
Black Tentacles (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blackTentacles.htm) (4th level)
Solid Fog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/solidFog.htm) (4th level)
Dimension Door (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionDoor.htm) (4th level)
Resilient Sphere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resilientSphere.htm) (4th level)
Telekinesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telekinesis.htm) (5th level)
Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleport.htm) (5th level)
Acid Fog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidFog.htm) (6th level)
Telekinetic Sphere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telekineticSphere.htm) (8th level)

A lot of these do something similar to walls (Web, Solid Fog) without actually blocking the area. Gust of Wind and Telekinesis are for shoving opponents around. Dimension Door and Teleport are another way of Just Saying NoTM to an opponent.

These are nice! Question with Telekinetic Sphere. If I force the sphere into/adjacent to a non-solid wall,like Wall of Fire, or Acid Fog would the sphere hedge out those effects and leave a "path" behind it or would they enter the sphere and return to normal when the sphere leaves? Also, what if I created the sphere that encompased one of those effects?

[Wings of Peace]

I'm tossing in my vote for Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil as well.

[ericgrau]

This has a lot of overlap with the basic battlefield control caster. To take it further you can do area/mass debuffs, and really any spell that makes a barrier or obstruction like evard's tentacles. Or sleet storm is one of my favorites. But IMO don't do the standard thing; take some of these but focus mainly on actual walls.

Either way sorcerer works well, because you can pick and choose which spell to cast as is fitting to the situation, and you don't change your spells prepared that often. Really preparing/knowing too many similar spells is a problem for both classes, but either can work well as a control caster.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Ok I've found a spell called Sonorous Hum (SpC, pg 196) that lets me auto-concentrate on the next spell I cast with duration: Concentration. A few Wall spells are Concentration. What if I cast Sonorous Hum followed by Wall of Fire then Telekinesis? If I read the spell correctly, Wall of Fire will be concentrated on for its full duration (its max duration is less than Sonorous Hum) and then I can cast Telekinesis and do all that good stuff.

But what if I cast it in the opposite way? Telekinesis then Wall of Fire. Could I still do Telekinesis stuff while maintaining Wall of Fire or would I still need an action to do Telekinesis stuff?

Also, can I switch what I do with Telekinesis every round or do I have to stick with whichever I use first? (Besides violent thrust of course)