OOTS #809 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[HUMVEE Driver]

What a great surprise this morning!

Great way to go from win to fail with your INT score, Roy.

[Tass]

Wow Belkar seems like a team player in the second panel. "Your stuff is in the pile" I don't know why, but I get a very nice feeling from that panel. The whole mood there seems very unlike the old Belkar. Of course the same goes for the previous strip.

Like.

On the other hand I hate this ongoing refusal to accept blackwing. Given the way they acted previously when it was only V who neglected him it chrushes my suspension of disbelief.

Dislike.

[Athaniar]

Well, that fight really was totally badass.

[DemonRoach]

The Familiar amuses me :P

[Dunamin]

I guess Roy might use this to go undercover, as he previously suggested for a back-up plan to get Girard-info.

Oh, and hilarious interpretation of the familiar! :smallbiggrin:
Half-baked plans vs half-baked plans, indeed.

[aduboo29]

Oh, Blackwing. How your situation amuses me.

[Maethirion]

Giant, you've made my day.
Brilliant as per usual.

Oh and Tarquin's absolutely right.

[Shale]

So now it's up to Belkar to help Elan and Durkon out....that'll go well.

[Blackcloak]

Typical Tarquin. Congratulates someone for destroying his arena :D
{scrubbed}

[Echon]

I was expecting a conversation betwen Blackwing and Roy. Oh well. :)

[Deuce]

Come on Belkar, you should understand that every fight is really just a contest to see who dies last.

[RecklessFable]

How does a raven "Give you the Bird?" I really think Blackwing might feel like doing that...

Then again, maybe he is "above" such foolishness!

Cretins indeed.

[Tundar]

Well, Roy did actually die before Thog.

Statue inc for Roy!

[mrmcfatty]

best way to end my day, get off work and there is a new comic, yay, {scrubbed}

"he only won cause he didnt die first" im going to use that line sometime :D

[Phishfood]

Oh great, now 7 people are looking at me wondering why I'm laughing.

"He only won because he didn't die first"

[electricbee]

Clap your hand if you believe in familiars.

[Yendor]

It's the old navy way: first guy to die, loses.

[Morquard]

"Anyone can do that" Lol, Belkar... :)

And they still refuse to believe Blackwing is real, that makes me sad :(

[flying sheep]

i’m starting to like elan’s dad more and more. he certainly sticks to his priorities.

i wonder what alignment he is. he’s both chaotic and evel, but in no way what you’d call “chaotic evil”. more like “affably chaotic. oh, and evil.”

[Sharoth]

That fight was badass!

Edit - And Poor Blackwing. You get no respect! I believe in you!

[The Pilgrim]

Tarquin is still Tarquin... :smallbiggrin:

[MesiDoomstalker]

WOAH! Quick turn around! I like it. Not as awesome as the last strip but still just as funny as always. Kudos Giant.

[Julian84]

Wow, Tarquin is the very definition of affably evil. Nice to see he appreciates Roy's effort, though.

[i6uuaq]

i’m starting to like elan’s dad more and more. he certainly sticks to his priorities.

i wonder what alignment he is. he’s both chaotic and evel, but in no way what you’d call “chaotic evil”. more like “affably chaotic. oh, and evil.”

meh. he's chaotic, evil, and has a high CHA score. Don't mistake it for anything else.

Also, Roy's sword looks like it grew.

I can't believe I only saw the update when checking a comic aggregator I use. I mean, seriously, I check this page about 20 times a day, but the Bot gets there before me?!?!

[HandofShadows]

Great. Ncie that Roy has such a high opinion of his own plans. :smallbiggrin:

[The Pilgrim]

i’m starting to like elan’s dad more and more. he certainly sticks to his priorities.

i wonder what alignment he is. he’s both chaotic and evel, but in no way what you’d call “chaotic evil”. more like “affably chaotic. oh, and evil.”

Lawful Evil, like his attorney said eons ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) and common sense dictates.

[CloakedDancer]

Yeah Belkar is right, he only won because he didn't die first. I mean any of us could do that, right? Right? Oh...

[Ron Miel]

Tarquin is Lawful Evil.
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)
Not chaotic.

Edit - ninja'd

[willpell]

meh. he's chaotic, evil, and has a high CHA score. Don't mistake it for anything else.

Tarquin is Lawful Evil. He's just not the stick-in-the-mud kind of Lawful. He knows how to have fun, but he still believes that "procedure is important, son" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0760.html).

[Ron Miel]

Why are they so surprised that Blackwing can talk. It's well-known that Ravens can speak common, isn't it? Haley knows it, anyway.

[Feytalist]

They can speak one language of their master's choice. I'm surprised it's not elven, actually. Given V's personality and all that.

Also: oh hey, new strip :smallbiggrin:

I really do like Tarquin's style, heh.

[Yendor]

Why are they so surprised that Blackwing can talk. It's well-known that Ravens can speak common, isn't it? Haley knows it, anyway.

It's raven familiars that can do that (or more strictly, one language of its master's choice). They haven't yet accepted that he's V's familiar.

What should tip them off is that Blackwing refers to Haley and Durkon by their first names, which V rarely does.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Yes, that was an amazing fight! And this time it wasn't the Order getting whomped on!

[Krim]

So, Tarquin has shown up, and is unambigously on the OotS side.

GG, Linear Guild.

[berrew]

Best line in the strip:

"Whatever Nale's half-baked plans are, we need to make sure they don't interfere with our own half-baked plans".

Surprisingly quick strip turn-around - but quality work as always.

[Kurald Galain]

Why are they so surprised that Blackwing can talk. It's well-known that Ravens can speak common, isn't it? Haley knows it, anyway.

Perhaps Haley has Knowledge: Nature and Roy does not. He ran out of skill points after his architecture lessons.

[ThePhantasm]

I think Belkar is a little jealous of Roy's badassery... :smallwink:

[Flame of Anor]

I'm loving the fan guards. :smallbiggrin:

[mistformsquirrl]

Gaaaah, I just can't bring myself to hate Tarquin even though he's an utter bastard. He's just so... likeable. < . .> That's cheating Giant! <_<

Srsly, great update.

[Cizak]

Hah! Awesome strip. "You are both ignorant cretins" and Tarquin made me laugh. It's weird hoever that Tarquin doesn't seem to be bothered that Belkar is out of his cell.

[bengator]

I love the nonchalant greeting between roy and belkar, as if it was no big deal that roy just destroyed a whole arena. The anticlimacticness (congrats to me for making up a word) of it all made me laugh.

[Gwynfrid]

Ah, Belkar, I had missed you. "Anyone can do that" :smalltongue:
But seriously, everyone gets a fantastic line in this strip. Congrats, Rich, great work as always !

[fibonacciseries]

The title of this strip was pretty funny too.

Also, I can't help but feel sorry for Blackwing.

[Belsirk]

De tal palo, tal astilla jejeje

No doubts, Blackwing has after all get influeced by his master

Anyway, There is nothing worse than know the bad guy catch you and he is still playing hte dumbass (OR put another way: A super-efficient NALE-ELAN character catch you )

[zimmerwald1915]

So, Tarquin has shown up, and is unambigously on the OotS side.

GG, Linear Guild.
Hardly. He wants Roy, and maybe Belkar, if it's not too much trouble, on his side. He's already got Elan and Durkon doing his dirty work for him. If he was on the OotS' side, he'd have sent them backup, and he wouldn't have ordered V imprisoned.

[Raistlin82]

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Blackwing.png "You are both ignorant cretins."
:roy: "See?"
:belkar: "Yeah, I guess you're right."

PRICELESS!

Also, I like how casual they are at the beginning.

[Timeless Error]

Hah, great strip. Tarquin is still awesome.

And they still refuse to believe V has a familiar? :smallannoyed:

[raymundo]

Gaaaah, I just can't bring myself to hate Tarquin even though he's an utter bastard.


Why would you be such a meanie and say such an unjolly thing? Has there already been a thread for endlessly discussing Tarquin's actions and plans?

[zimmerwald1915]

And they still refuse to believe V has a familiar? :smallannoyed:
Maybe there's an actual reason for this, beyond the running gags about low Spot checks and familiars being perennially forgotten. Perhaps Blackwing's been affected by his time so close to the rift, or by what he perceived therein, and is thus no longer seen as a natural creature? Every time an OotSer has tried to explain Blackwing's existence, they have resorted to magic: declaring him an illusion in Sandsedge, and a Magic Mouth now. V wasn't subject to this effect because she and Blackwing are bonded. But no one else can believe his existence.

It's a crackpot theory, but this has now come up in three places (Sandsedge, Girard's Trap, and here), and that's too many times for it to be insignificant.

[SamBurke]

BADASS! And lolz... finally some solid inter-party dialogue... are things winding down?

[Forikroder]

i’m starting to like elan’s dad more and more. he certainly sticks to his priorities.

i wonder what alignment he is. he’s both chaotic and evel, but in no way what you’d call “chaotic evil”. more like “affably chaotic. oh, and evil.”
no hes still lawful evil, jsut becuase your lawful doesnt mean theres a stuck up your behind, hes already shown hes not a serious miko all the time and knows how to relax

[Killer Angel]

Brilliant, as always.
...and, as if there was need, Tarquin confirms that he got Style.
:smallsmile:

[Howler Dagger]

Awesome! i loved roy and belkars response to blackwing, and tarquin and his soldiers' responses.

[danielmayer]

Hah! Awesome strip. "You are both ignorant cretins" [...]

The "See?" was better :) I really liked this confident smile of Roy when he said this. It's nice to read/see that V and his raven are quite alike ;)

[CoffeeIncluded]

Aw, sweet. I wonder how much Tarquin overheard though...

[Gusion]

Don't over-think Blackwing. It is just a running joke of how players in 3.5 typically ignored their familiar because it was too much of a pain for everyone to track it; well, if they die it sucks more than the benefit of having one. I'm guilty of it too when I play a wizard.

I do love that he says, "You are both ignorant cretins." Blackwing's INT is probably only 14 (assuming level 17-18 for V) but I suppose he is likely smarter than both Roy and Belkar.

Assuming V doesn't have plane shift memorized and she'll be there for another day... Blackwing will likely just follow Roy around. Then tomorrow V can scry on Blackwing to figure out where he is and try to plane shift back. If she doesn't have plane shift... well... maybe the ranch dressing creature is a lvl 7+ cleric (what god a ranch dressing cleric would worship I don't know.) V could strike a bargain and have it cast dismissal on her. That would be funnier than her just waiting a day to come back (you reading this Giant?!).

Oh, and did you notice all the gold on the ground is gone (just some equipment is there)? I guess Belkar took that for himself, not that I blame him.

As for Roy - he'll be fine. Maybe he leveled after that epic fight - mega RP XP points - and Tarquin is very smart (and a poster child for lawful evil) and will connect that he's working with Elan (granted probably because Elan will walk in and say, "ROY!!!!" but nevertheless). Once that connection is made than he'll be let go (see ep 762).

[TinyMushroom]

I love Tarquin more and more every strip that he appears. :smallbiggrin:

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Gusion]

Perhaps Blackwing's been affected by his time so close to the rift, or by what he perceived therein, and is thus no longer seen as a natural creature?

All wizard familiars are magical beasts, not natural animals.

I think it is just part of the joke that since wizards (including V) don't use them much that the rest of the party wouldn't understand what a familiar is (beyond a bird that sits on V's shoulder sometimes) given their average intelligence scores and lack of skill points in knowledge (arcana).

[Golden Ladybug]

Oh, Giant, you glourious storyteller you. Seeing a new strip to laugh about is always a high point of my late night obsessions with whatever currently interests me.

Tarquin has proven himself once again to be my favourite character in this entire arc. It all started after his post-duel sip of wine, and he's just gotten better from there.


Everyone saying Blackwing doesn't exist is a cunning plot twist and/or everyone being mean to Blackwing!

Nah, doubt it. Seems to me that its just a joke, and quite a funny one. We spent nearly 600 strips of V needing to be reminded of his/her familiar's existence, and now that he/she is actively trying to point it out, those same people who kept reminding her of Blackwing don't actually believe it (Or was it only ever Haley who brought up Blackwing's existence? Hmm...).

Remember, "I don't trust you enough to believe that you lied"

EDIT: Okay, I added the "his/" to be prudent and avoid the potential arguement that V's gender entails. Ignore my personal opinion and go on with praising the Giant's masterful work :smallwink:

[Ron Miel]

Maybe there's an actual reason for this, beyond the running gags about low Spot checks and familiars being perennially forgotten. Perhaps Blackwing's been affected by his time so close to the rift, or by what he perceived therein, and is thus no longer seen as a natural creature?

You might have something there.

Perhaps Kragor didn't really die from contact with the rift, perhaps he just has been rendered "invisible", where people seeing him are caused to instantly forget him.

[Zerg Cookie]

My day was pretty crappy.
Then I saw a new OotS strip.
Now it's a little less crappy.
True story.

[flying sheep]

Lawful Evil, like his attorney said eons ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) and common sense dictates.hmm, not really lawful, as he seems to value “awesomeness” and “badassry” above all else. and these two traits aren’t exactly able to be reduced to a common denominator with lawfulness. he seems totally able to do something “unlawful”, because it is cool.

then again, i’m no rules nerd and pretty inexperienced with d&d, so i might as well be totally wrong.

[faustin]

:roy: Ah Yes, Blackwing. The alleged familiar of Vaarsuvius. We have dismissed that claim.

Anyway, I´m sorry Mr.Scruffy couldn´t keep the Giant Strenght Belt a bit more.

[Vemynal]

"You are both ignorant cretins" - love it!


hmm, not really lawful, as he seems to value “awesomeness” and “badassry” above all else. and these two traits aren’t exactly able to be reduced to a common denominator with lawfulness. he seems totally able to do something “unlawful”, because it is cool.

then again, i’m no rules nerd and pretty inexperienced with d&d, so i might as well be totally wrong.

he follows a code; "the code of awesome"

[Ekul]

Gotta love the dramatic irony in the last panel. You just love teasing us, don't you, Giant?

Wonderful strip.

[bibliophile20]

Great comic! Affably Evil, that's our General! :)

One nitpick, though; back when they first got captured by the police after the barroom brawl (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0731.html), Roy was wearing his armor, the belt and had his sword, and Belkar was wearing his green cloak and armor. How did Hayley get ahold of them? I suppose she might have snuck out and stolen them from wherever they were being held, but, if she did, when did she do so?

[H Birchgrove]

Oh you Tarquin, making me love-hate you even more. :smalltongue:

[UtimaII]

This was a wonderful strip, not a singl panel wasted, not a single misstep in dialogue, both punchlines were well executed. This strip is pretty much a work of art in its own right.

[Ron Miel]

How did Hayley get ahold of [Roy's stuff] ? I suppose she might have snuck out and stolen them from wherever they were being held, but, if she did, when did she do so?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0773.html
see panel 7

[ericgrau]

Oh man oh man keep up the familiar jokes I don't think they'll ever get old. Magic mouth, lol.

[t209]

Do you notice that Roy's armor can be opened from sides?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0809.html

[bibliophile20]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0773.html
see panel 7

Ah, cool. Thanks!

[mrmcfatty]

Do you notice that Roy's armor can be opened from sides?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0809.html

must be a clip on obviously. ;)

[KoboldRevenge]

He's still not in the clear Mr T has something up his sleeve.

[Quackenbush]

Wait...so oes this mean Tarquin is going to put Roy back in the arena and he'll have to escape, or will he let him go?

[Who149]

Belkar is just annoyed that he was pit up against a level one commoner, not even worth making a sweet hat or bowl out of.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Maybe there's an actual reason for this, beyond the running gags about low Spot checks and familiars being perennially forgotten. Perhaps Blackwing's been affected by his time so close to the rift, or by what he perceived therein, and is thus no longer seen as a natural creature? Every time an OotSer has tried to explain Blackwing's existence, they have resorted to magic: declaring him an illusion in Sandsedge, and a Magic Mouth now. V wasn't subject to this effect because she and Blackwing are bonded. But no one else can believe his existence.

It's a crackpot theory, but this has now come up in three places (Sandsedge, Girard's Trap, and here), and that's too many times for it to be insignificant.

+1. I second this. It just doesn't come off as a joke to me the second time or now the third time. I'm not saying that its absolutely true, but there is evidence that give this theory credibility as Zimmerwald pointed out.

[rewinn]

Do you notice that Roy's armor can be opened from sides?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0809.html

A breastplate/backplate combination can be hinged or buckled that way pretty easily. It makes it easier to put on/take off without having to pull the assembly over your head; this is important for word balloon placement, since they tend to be larger than the neckhole.

It's really embarassing to be putting on your armor while talking and have the whole thing hang up on your word balloons.

------
:blackwing: - You are both ignorant Cretins
:roy: - what is this "Crete" you speak of?

Hey Giant - we need a :blackwing: smily!

[zimmerwald1915]

Nah, doubt it. Seems to me that its just a joke, and quite a funny one. We spent nearly 600 strips of V needing to be reminded of his/her familiar's existence, and now that he/she is actively trying to point it out, those same people who kept reminding her of Blackwing don't actually believe it (Or was it only ever Haley who brought up Blackwing's existence? Hmm...).

Remember, "I don't trust you enough to believe that you lied"
Nope, the first person in the comic to mention that V had a familiar was Belkar. True, it was only for the bonus to Spot and Listen checks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html), but it demonstrates that 1) Belkar knew V had a familiar of some kind prior to asking about it, 2) that Belkar knew something about familiars' capabilities at the time of his asking this question and that 3) V told Belkar and Haley that that familiar was a raven.

Haley then brought up V's familiar when the bandit camp needed to be scouted, and named him Blackwing. Belkar, too, remembers that V had him in Comic #3 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0154.html). Durkon then cast a spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0155.html) on Blackwing when he was wounded, and expresses surprise when Blackwing vanishes from his grip.

The next time Blackwing was mentioned it was again Haley doing the mentioning, suggesting that he scout ahead toward the Starmetal Cave (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0178.html). She does so in the presence of Roy, who is thoroughly confused. A raven does appear next to Roy's head, but Haley never indicates to Roy that this is Blackwing. Blackwing immediately begins chasing Lizard-V, who is also unable, being both a lizard and quarry, to clear things up for Roy. Blackwing eventually disappears without Roy having been given an explanation for the incident. At this point every OotS member but Elan has been in Blackwing's presence, and Belkar and Haley have both remembered/recognized him more than once.

I'm not going to archive-trawl for more appearances, but I don't think Blackwing appeared again in the presence of any more OotS members untilthe sail to Sandsedge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html). At the time, they were all engaged in their own tasks - Roy and Durkon planning, Haley and Elan reassuring one another, and Belkar and Scruffy napping. V doesn't provoke a Blackwing-related response from them until they reach Sandsedge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0673.html). At this point, it is hardly surprising that Belkar and Haley do not remember the Death Knight: they were not at all close to V's position when that went down. It is even possible to rationalize away their not knowing that Blackwing appeared to chase Lizard-V. Belkar was preoccupied failing Knowledge: Nature checks about reptilian reproductive anatomy, Haley was talking to Roy, and Blackwing was engaging in most un-familiar-like behavior, attacking his wizard (of course, Haley wasn't sure the lizard was V, so it might have been any old raven attempting to eat any old lizard, and thus beneath her notice, as far as she was concerned). But as V points out, it is harder to explain away Haley's forgetting that she named Blackwing, and even harder to explain Belkar's forgetting about his remembering Blackwing in Strip #3, particularly when he remembered remembering Blackwing in Strip 154.

The theory's shot to hell by Z's reaction to Blackwing, however. He recognizes Blackwing as a familiar, says as much, and remembers his own. Qarr, too, is aware of, and interacts with, Blackwing. He also speaks as though he had seen Blackwing before, despite V not remembering Blackwing when he was in Qarr's presence. Presumably Qarr saw Blackwing appear and carry Xykon's phylactery towards the rift on the blood plasma screen. So yeah, it's probably a running joke, given that the ignorance of Blackwing seems confined to the OotS. Oh well. I rather liked that theory.

[rewinn]

Nope, the first person in the comic to mention that V had a familiar was Belkar. (very fine analysis snipped...)

For Belkar to forget something that he neither hates nor lusts after would not be surprising. And Haley's not present, so we're left with Roy who IIRC has never really recognized Blackwing's existence. It's a funny lapse, since he should know about familiars, what with having a wizard daddy - but maybe there's some Aweful Secret about Eugene familiar that is responsible for this lacuna?

[Trouvere]

I love the 2D-ness of Roy's armor in panel 2!

[Onyavar]

My day was pretty crappy.
Then I saw a new OotS strip.
Now it's a little less crappy.
True story.

My day was pretty fine.
Then I saw a new OotS strip.
Now I can't stop smiling, since the day changed to be super wonderful.
True story.

Forumposter 1: Surely, Rich, you didn't expect you would be able to have lunch*... at least not before I get a chance to write here how totally badass the last ten panels of todays comic were?
Forumposter 2: Comic of the year day**, no question!
Forumposter 3: Someone get this man a bunch of chocolate cakes!***
Forumposter 4: Can I have an autograph?

*Okay, I admit, I have no idea when the giant eats lunch...
** Tomorrows comic will be even more badass - won't it?
*** And I also have no idea if Rich likes chocolate cakes. But if he liked to get some, I would send him one or two via pm.

[zimmerwald1915]

For Belkar to forget something that he neither hates nor lusts after would not be surprising.
That theory's half-baked and always was, at least in terms of adequately analyzing who Belkar is as a person. As a joke it was quite funny.

Belkar remembered enough to suspect it was Mister Scruffy he spotted in the fight with Black Squadron. Belkar remembered enough about the OotS' preparations for the Wooden Forest sidequest to be jealous of Hinjo for having Argent: he even remembered the species of his own mount. Those are the only examples I can think of, but I think they, together with his comment to V in 154, demonstrate adequately that Belkar's memory is capable of dredging up events from much earlier in the strip, particularly when they relate to accomplishments of his or slights he has been dealt.

[maxon]

"- him. Crap."
Gigglols.

Also, "you are both ignorant cretins." Lovely stuff.

[Gusion]

That theory's half-baked and always was, at least in terms of adequately analyzing who Belkar is as a person. As a joke it was quite funny.

Belkar remembered enough to [snip]

Yes, well, in this particular case he failed his intelligence roll.

That's the thing about D&D, the answer doesn't need to be any deeper than that. He needed a DC 10 to remember and rolled a 2. *shrugs*

[Lemur Bear]

I have a feeling that there is going to be a celebration in Roy's honor and Tarquin is going to get really chummy with Roy and then the inevitable "So, on Tuesday, we are going to have Thog's execution followed by another fight with you. Guards, bring him back to the cells."

I wonder how long it is going to take before there is a Roy Greenhilt Fan Page on Macebook :tongue:

[zimmerwald1915]

Yes, well, in this particular case he failed his intelligence roll.

That's the thing about D&D, the answer doesn't need to be any deeper than that. He needed a DC 10 to remember and rolled a 2. *shrugs*
I don't know what kind of GMs you play with, but I've never heard of a character having to roll to remember details of their own life, unless they were specifically blocked from remembering somehow (magical effect, amnesia of some kind, etc.).

[MesiDoomstalker]

A few questions:
Where is Blackwing and Mr. Scruffy in the final panel?
Why isn't Tarquin/Guards not reacting to Belkar not being imprisoned or why they all of the sudden has different equipment than what they had in the arena?

[Vectner]

Good pun giant.

Oh and Tarquin will just get some slaves to rebuild the arena.
It will drive his accountant nuts to boot.

[ORione]

You might have something there.

Perhaps Kragor didn't really die from contact with the rift, perhaps he just has been rendered "invisible", where people seeing him are caused to instantly forget him.

That might explain Girard's comment, second page, second panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html).

I heard two theories on why the Order forgot about Blackwing right when V remembered him. One was comedic amnesia. The other one was that Blackwing and the rest of the Order were in cahoots to mess with V, perhaps as Blackwing's revenge for V's previous forgetfulness. This strip pretty much eliminates the second theory.

Oh, and I just noticed that Belkar has taken off his sandals. I guess he's still a Sexy Shoeless God of War.

[Snails]

He's still not in the clear Mr T has something up his sleeve.

Possibly. But not necessarily.

Tarquin wanted to see Thog beaten or killed, because Thog is Nale's man.

Roy is now champion. Roy is a proven, admirable fighter. Roy is someone Tarquin may be able to work with.

Tarquin is very practical. He does not seem to have grander plans beyond his one grand plan to control this continent. Roy is not expected to be an obstacle, certainly not while he is busy helping out his son on this cool world-saving quest.

[Gusion]

I don't know what kind of GMs you play with, but I've never heard of a character having to roll to remember details of their own life, unless they were specifically blocked from remembering somehow (magical effect, amnesia of some kind, etc.).

In our games if a PC didn't take their own notes but then later wants to remember something they can ask the DM. An example would be, "Oh what was the name of that inn we stayed at in the previous city?"

Assuming none of the PCs knows the answer, the DM can require an Int roll for the character to remember. If there are any NPCs in the party they may (or may not) chime in with the answer as well. Whether they do depends ultimately on if the DM feels like it, but in theory can depend on their own intelligence and disposition to the party.

The DC to remember something varies on the question, of course. The name of the previous inn would be pretty low. But say they just met a bard on a trail... and it is actually the same bard who sang at an inn the PCs visited a month ago - that's a higher DC. The DM would make that roll and if any of the PCs passed the DM would remind them of that fact.

People don't remember everything in real life, so I think it adds in a nice challenge into the game. It also encourages players to take notes of what they think is important instead of being able to always just ask the DM later.

[zimmerwald1915]

Huh. I take extremely detailed notes for a campaign I'm in (my journal's up to a hundred and sixty pages long) and still can't remember things half the time. It doesn't help that I'm a terrible mis-speller and thus render the search function nigh-useless.

Regardless, that's very much a house rule. Not that the characters in OotS can be expected to never forget things, they're "real" people after all, as far as that goes, but proposing that their memories work by dice roll is not really supported by anything.

EDIT: just remembered, apparently characters can visit previous strips (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html). Characters might feel some compunction against doing so (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0528.html), or they might be prevented from doing so in some cases but not others. But it's apparently a possiblity open to some characters some of the time. Belkar's a cheater. It stands to reason he'd take advantage of this whenever he can.

[Mutant Sheep]

That might explain Girard's comment, second page, second panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html).
I thought that was because Soon was planning on a rampage across the world to wipe out all knowledge of the rifts?

Awesome comic again! Weighing in on the "why-u-no-recognize Belkar", he's wearing different cloths, no sandals, and hes one of a good couple hundred prisoners. He didn't even kill anyone memorably, a cat did. And since the intestines as floss was off-panel, it never happened.:smallwink:And Roy completely upstaged him in the try-outs.



EDIT: just remembered, apparently characters can visit previous strips (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html). Characters might feel some compunction against doing so (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0528.html), or they might be prevented from doing so in some cases but not others. But it's apparently a possiblity open to some characters some of the time. Belkar's a cheater. It stands to reason he'd take advantage of this whenever he can.
Well, technically it was the cast page, which actually FALLS UNDER THE DRAGON MAGAZINE CANON! *dramatic music* Bum bum BUUM!:smallbiggrin:

[Gift Jeraff]

Heheh. Love the ignorant cretins panel.

And am I the only one who thinks it's perfectly reasonable that the Order completely forgot who Blackwing was? It's been almost a year since most of them last saw him (back at the trial (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0271.html)), and over a year since Belkar did (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0154.html). Granted, Durkon should be wise enough to have accepted that he's V's familiar by now, especially since a year isn't as long for him as it is for humans and halflings.

[NeoSeraphi]

i’m starting to like elan’s dad more and more. he certainly sticks to his priorities.

i wonder what alignment he is. he’s both chaotic and evel, but in no way what you’d call “chaotic evil”. more like “affably chaotic. oh, and evil.”

Actually, he's Lawful Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) and Elan is Chaotic Good.

[Mutant Sheep]

Heheh. Love the ignorant cretins panel.

And am I the only one who thinks it's perfectly reasonable that the Order completely forgot who Blackwing was? It's been almost a year since most of them last saw him (back at the trial (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0271.html)), and over a year since Belkar did (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0154.html). Granted, Durkon should be wise enough to have accepted that he's V's familiar by now, especially since a year isn't as long for him as it is for humans and halflings.

Well, they all saw him back in Sandsedge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0674.html), and V was very "THIS IS A FAMILIAR" at them. I HOPE that wasn't a year ago, because if it is then Belkar will never die.:smalleek:

[Gusion]

[snip] but proposing that their memories work by dice roll is not really supported by anything.

I suppose, except that pretty much everything in D&D works by dice roll or DM discretion.


EDIT: just remembered, apparently characters can visit previous strips (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html). Characters might feel some compunction against doing so (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0528.html), or they might be prevented from doing so in some cases but not others.[snip]

Well yes. But I'll put that down as DM discretion. It is Giant's comic strip so he can bend rules all he wants. My real point is that Belkar can forget things, whether or not it was by an invisible dice roll or not... we shouldn't assume any character has perfect memory.

[zimmerwald1915]

Well, they all saw him back in Sandsedge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0674.html), and V was very "THIS IS A FAMILIAR" at them.
Moreover, the Order did not react to his "THIS IS A FAMILIAR" with an "Oh, congratulations on getting a familiar." They reacted with "no, it couldn't possibly be a familiar, let's try to justify it being anything else." Belkar and Roy continue in this vein in this strip, despite Blackwing being a familiar being a very easy explanation to how he knows what he knows about V and how he's able to relate this information to them. This is wilful ignorance of the "Elan believes Nale is dead" variety.

[zimmerwald1915]

Well yes. But I'll put that down as DM discretion. It is Giant's comic strip so he can bend rules all he wants. My real point is that Belkar can forget things, whether or not it was by an invisible dice roll or not... we shouldn't assume any character has perfect memory.
And we shouldn't assume that any character has a memory like a sieve, based on some other character's biased opinion of that character, without looking at that character's record of remembering things.

[Gift Jeraff]

Well, they all saw him back in Sandsedge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0674.html), and V was very "THIS IS A FAMILIAR" at them. I HOPE that wasn't a year ago, because if it is then Belkar will never die.:smalleek:I meant prior to that. :smallannoyed:

[Laws of Chaos]

Great Comic!
It does seem that Belkar is actually being a bit more of a team player. He gathered all of Roy's equipment together, and from the looks of it,put all Haley's stuff back in the bag. But Roy upset me by taking Mr Scruffy's belt!
Blackwing cracked me up too.

Thanks for the update Giant!

[Gusion]

And we shouldn't assume that any character has a memory like a sieve, based on some other character's biased opinion of that character, without looking at that character's record of remembering things.

I assumed he failed a dice roll. That's it. Any character can roll a "1" just like any character can roll a "20" - it is one of the funnier aspects of the rules. A "record of remembering things" is irrelevant in D&D if the d20 hates you that particular day.

How that is biased against any character or assumes a "sieve-like" memory?

For the record, I actually like Belkar a lot. When he carried around his lead screen to avoid Miko's detect evil? That was classic A++ material right there.

[Silverraptor]

I've been waiting for a comic that would cause me to chuckle the entire time.:smallbiggrin:

[zimmerwald1915]

I assumed he failed a dice roll. That's it. Any character can roll a "1" just like any character can roll a "20" - it is one of the funnier aspects of the rules. A "record of remembering things" is irrelevant in D&D if the d20 hates you that particular day.

How that is biased against any character or assumes a "sieve-like" memory?
I was actually referring to rewinn's comment there more than yours.

[WickedWizard17]

DUDE LMAO. LOVE TARQUIN SO MUCH.

LOL I only found out the new comic was up because TV TROPES TOLD ME. I then proceeded to check it out immediately :smallwink:

So the big question is, HOW THE HELL IS V GONNA GET HOME?

[Raistlin82]

Moreover, the Order did not react to his "THIS IS A FAMILIAR" with an "Oh, congratulations on getting a familiar." They reacted with "no, it couldn't possibly be a familiar, let's try to justify it being anything else."
This is incorrect.
They don't react at the presence of the bird with "it couldn't possibly be a familiar".
They react at V's claim that he's always been there with "it couldn't possibly have been there"... and they're right, because it hasn't. Except for Belkar, who still doesn't see it, because he failed a Spot check (and a Listen check, LOL).
It's the same old story since the beginning of the recurring gag... they almost never see it, they don't acknowledge its presence or they just forget about it. Before and after the rift.
Why?
RULE. OF. FUNNY. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfFunny)

[WickedWizard17]

OMG GUYS - Roy said they've been on the Western Continent/in the Empire of Blood for TWO WEEKS - that means Belkar only has five weeks of life left! Although the entire story arc has taken place in the last two weeks, with the past like 20 comics encompassing about half an hour . . .

[zimmerwald1915]

This is incorrect.
They don't react at the presence of the bird with "it couldn't possibly be a familiar"
:elan: It's your imaginary friend.
:roy: It's an illusion. You must have cast it just now.
:durkon: Nay, nay, it's a delusion.
:roy: It's a pet.
:haley: You're right, Durkon, V's seeing things.
:elan: I can make illusions too!

For people who aren't trying to say "it's not a familiar," they sure come up with a lot of alternate explanations for what Blackwing could be. They could have said "okay, it's a familiar, but you certainly didn't have it this whole time," but aside from an early, and ignored, proposal of that sort by Belkar, that's not the conclusion they end up drawing.

In this strip, too, Roy and Belkar dismiss the possibility that Blackwing might be a familiar, and instead conclude that it's an illusion or projection of some sort.

It was probably a joke then. It's probably still a joke now. But that doesn't make it not bizarre.

[ORione]

This is incorrect.
They don't react at the presence of the bird with "it couldn't possibly be a familiar".
They react at V's claim that he's always been there with "it couldn't possibly have been there"... and they're right, because it hasn't. Except for Belkar, who still doesn't see it, because he failed a Spot check (and a Listen check, LOL).
It's the same old story since the beginning of the recurring gag... they almost never see it, they don't acknowledge its presence or they just forget about it. Before and after the rift.
Why?
RULE. OF. FUNNY. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfFunny)

But trhey also ask why Blackwing hadn't been there at times when he actually had been there. This, of course, is easily explainable as Rule of Funny.

[Gilphon]

Certainly, the idea that there's some freaky Snarl-related reason behind this is contradicted by Z and Qarr's reactions to him.

[ricorum]

Well, looks like Tarquin did the the entire fight. Of course we agree. This fight was Badtastic.

[theinsulabot]

I do love that he says, "You are both ignorant cretins." Blackwing's INT is probably only 14 (assuming level 17-18 for V) but I suppose he is likely smarter than both Roy and Belkar.


belkar yes, roy, not a chance.



on an unrelated note, so tarquin is what you get when you use a reoccurring character who actually uses his/her CHA score for something besides intimidate and bluff

[zimmerwald1915]

belkar yes, roy, not a chance.
"Ignorant" and "unintelligent" are two different things.

[snikrept]

Team members' attitude toward Blackwing continues to be a dissonance given that they originally were the ones who tried to convince Vaarsuvius that Blackwing should exist outside of his class functions.

Still holding out here that this abrupt 180 regarding perceptions of Blackwing has something to do with getting too close to the Rift.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Team members' attitude toward Blackwing continues to be a dissonance given that they originally were the ones who tried to convince Vaarsuvius that Blackwing should exist outside of his class functions.

Still holding out here that this abrupt 180 regarding perceptions of Blackwing has something to do with getting too close to the Rift.

I like your theory, and think Qurr and Zz'dtri's immunity to the effect is due to Qurr being extraplanar in origin and Z having been removed from reality by his legal issues until after Blackwing's encounter with the Rift, especially since Z's presence wasn't re-established in any manner until the scrying eye in the desert.

[Shale]

Certainly, the idea that there's some freaky Snarl-related reason behind this is contradicted by Z and Qarr's reactions to him.

And his bauble purchase, which is what, two years ago at this point?

Not that it stopped people from making the exact same speculation back then.

[Gift Jeraff]

And his bauble purchase, which is what, two years ago at this point?

Not that it stopped people from making the exact same speculation back then.Gannji and Enor also interacted with him. Twice. Plus Mr. Scruffy.

EDIT: We can also add the Directors to the list of people who have acknowledged Blackwing post-rift, since they presumably gave Qarr the order to kill him.

[zimmerwald1915]

Gannji and Enor also interacted with him. Twice. Plus Mr. Scruffy.

EDIT: We can also add the Directors to the list of people who have acknowledged Blackwing post-rift, since they presumably gave Qarr the order to kill him.
All of this only begs the question of why it is only members of the Order of the Stick who now ignore/disbelieve Blackwing's existence as a familiar. Astonishing amounts of wilful ignorance for the sake of a joke might be the correct answer, but it is far from a satisfying one.

[Whiffet]

This morning, I just had this feeling... somehow, before I got out of bed, I sensed there was a new comic up. And I desperately wanted to check it out. But no, I had to get up and go to class right away. I even brought my laptop with me to try and check between or during classes, but the campus has really crappy wireless and I couldn't get to the site.

Ah well, it was worth the wait. :smallbiggrin: Blackwing still not being treated like a real character, Tarquin and guards loving how the fight went, and Belkar's assessment of said fight.

[Shale]

All of this only begs the question of why it is only members of the Order of the Stick who now ignore/disbelieve Blackwing's existence as a familiar. Astonishing amounts of wilful ignorance for the sake of a joke might be the correct answer, but it is far from a satisfying one.

It's perfectly satisfying to me. Your suspension of disbelief may vary.

[weeping eagle]

All of this only begs the question of why it is only members of the Order of the Stick who now ignore/disbelieve Blackwing's existence as a familiar.Since V said that she wouldn't discuss the rift-world with Roy until he acknowledged Blackwing's familiarhood, maybe the plot just isn't ready for Roy to know about that yet.

[zimmerwald1915]

Since V said that she wouldn't discuss the rift-world with Roy until he acknowledged Blackwing's familiarhood, maybe the plot just isn't ready for Roy to know about that yet.
Assuming V wasn't making up an excuse for why she hadn't told Roy yet.

[sims796]

That Blackwing does the best impressions! He totally nailed his V impression!

[Anarion]

Assuming V wasn't making up an excuse for why she hadn't told Roy yet.

I think V's desire to discuss the rifts is distinct from Blackwing as a familiar. It's more likely that V made a value judgment about how distracting it would be to give out the info of a planet inside the rifts when V still thinks the ideal plan is to stop Xykon and keep the world as is.

Loved this comic though. Belkar being helpful and practical, then getting mad because he got upstaged by Roy again (remember that Roy was picked as the main fight precisely because he upstaged Belkar during practice). And the "you ignorant cretins" line is beautiful. Truly V and Blacking are growing on each other.

Also I might be mistaken, but looking at the layout of panel 1, I think Belkar has replaced all the gold and assorted items back into the bag of holding? I can't really tell what happened to the bag itself since we don't see Belkar and Roy carrying it, but I highly doubt they would leave the scene without taking the bag with them.

[theinsulabot]

"Ignorant" and "unintelligent" are two different things.


...the poster I was responding to guessed roy's INT score was lower then 14, what are you talking about?

[rewinn]

And we shouldn't assume that any character has a memory like a sieve, based on some other character's biased opinion of that character, without looking at that character's record of remembering things.
It's not an assumption; it's a behavior that defines a character.

Belkar doesn't do anything that Belkar doesn't WANT to do; there's plenty of examples strewn throughout the archive. The fact that Belkar can ID animals when he WANTS to merely shows his ABILITY to do so; the issue here is his MOTIVATION.

You may prefer to think that there is a plot hole, based upon your belief that Belkar has a different personality than that which he has demonstrated. Personally, I think it's nice when characters have imperfections.

[One Step Two]

Fantastic comic, I was laughing quite endlessly for a while there.

As for the constant disbelief of blackwing, let me point this out: If they didn't he wouldn't get to have such awesome lines as "You are both ignorant cretins."

[Ave]

I never did this before, but... hilarious comic.

[warmachine]

Belkar's complaint reminds of a quote from the YouTube series Freeman's Mind, as found here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR3dfU8d1K4&feature=youtu.be&t=3m36s).

Why does everyone have to keep dying on me? Is it really so hard to just not die? I mean, look at me! I was in the chamber in freaking ground zero and I’m still here! Yet you guys slip on a banana peel and that’s it!

Actually, the entire series reminds of Belkar.

[Threadnaught]

Tarquin is Lawful Evil, Roy never knew about Blackwing as V's Familiar, Belkar did but probably forgot, it's been over 600 strips and he does have lower Wisdom than most other members of the Order.

I am wondering why Tarquin didn't say anything about Roy's new armour and weapon, or how nobody seemed to notice Belkar, but I am one of the people who believes he knows more about Girard and the gates than he lets on, so why not? Maybe he knows the Elan is the leader of his own adventuring party which Roy just happens to be a part of, it wouldn't be the first time Roy's Feat has been undermined.

[Shale]

Tarquin seems to treat gladiator escapes as part and parcel of the games -- heck, he was genuinely happy about Gannij and Enor getting away. Besides, he was already planning to offer Roy a job if he lived.

[Threadnaught]

Tarquin seems to treat gladiator escapes as part and parcel of the games -- heck, he was genuinely happy about Gannij and Enor getting away. Besides, he was already planning to offer Roy a job if he lived.

True, but remember that Belkar gave a little bonus acton after a rather, mediocre performance. Remember how he somehow managed to find and recapture Hayley's dad and uncle, every single time they escaped?

Because he can get more money out of them by keeping them, plus the fact that since nobody saw their daring escape, it doesn't really have all the crowd pleasing tension of Ganji and Enor's.


Though Belkar being there when he offered Roy the job, that may contribute to him not caring about him being out of the cell as he could be under the impression that member from the same adventuring party work better when they're together, than they do alone.


I know it's annoying right? I have a habit of thinking in circles and answering most of my own questions. Agreeing with someone, while at the same time finding a way to disagree. However, I almost always have something substantial to say, unless someone else has already said everything. :smallwink:


So... Tarquin must be the most awesome villain in the comic huh?


Edit: Remember logic? It's the part of my brain that cries when it sees spelling mistakes and recognizes bad grammar. Ruining a perfectly good post by mispelling "villain" is enough to make it commit suicide. :smallannoyed:

[Procyonpi]

Team members' attitude toward Blackwing continues to be a dissonance given that they originally were the ones who tried to convince Vaarsuvius that Blackwing should exist outside of his class functions.

Still holding out here that this abrupt 180 regarding perceptions of Blackwing has something to do with getting too close to the Rift.

Sometimes, in a comic, the reason for something is just, you know, COMEDY.

If this little joke has anything to do with the plot, it's about preventing V from mentioning the world-within-the-world to the rest of the party yet.

[Velaryon]

I guess Roy might use this to go undercover, as he previously suggested for a back-up plan to get Girard-info.

It's probably too late for that. After the rather obvious exchange (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0781.html) between Belkar and V, Tarquin probably knows that the two of them are connected to Elan. Honestly, Roy's best bet at this point is just being up-front with Tarquin as much as possible without revealing anything about the gates.

[recapdrake]

I loved tarquins line from
your not going anywhere to THAT WAS EPIC DUDE!

[J's]

It's probably too late for that. After the rather obvious exchange (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0781.html) between Belkar and V, Tarquin probably knows that the two of them are connected to Elan. Honestly, Roy's best bet at this point is just being up-front with Tarquin as much as possible without revealing anything about the gates.

He has likely also figured out that Durkon is a member. Considering how unable Elan is of keeping a secret, let alone Durkon's unwillingness to lie that was barely covered by Hayley.
I in the camp that he is satisfied with knowing who the members of his son's troupe is and having control of when they will ultimately leave by having the info they seek. So he will withhold the info as long as he wants to spend time with Elan before allowing them to deal with the scene eating villain.

[ORione]

I hadn't noticed the strip's title until now. I love it.

[Zea mays]

Good strip.

I guess Tarquin was so impressed by the fight that he hasn't even noticed that both Roy and Belkar have ditched the Loin-cloth-and-sandal look.

To me, Blackwing appears to be flying away in the seventh panel, hopefully to escape capture and shadow the group.

[CrazyBlue]

True, but remember that Belkar gave a little bonus acton after a rather, mediocre performance. Remember how he somehow managed to find and recapture Hayley's dad and uncle, every single time they escaped?

Because he can get more money out of them by keeping them, plus the fact that since nobody saw their daring escape, it doesn't really have all the crowd pleasing tension of Ganji and Enor's.


Though Belkar being there when he offered Roy the job, that may contribute to him not caring about him being out of the cell as he could be under the impression that member from the same adventuring party work better when they're together, than they do alone.


I know it's annoying right? I have a habit of thinking in circles and answering most of my own questions. Agreeing with someone, while at the same time finding a way to disagree. However, I almost always have something substantial to say, unless someone else has already said everything. :smallwink:


So... Tarquin must be the most awesome villain in the comic huh?


Edit: Remember logic? It's the part of my brain that cries when it sees spelling mistakes and recognizes bad grammar. Ruining a perfectly good post by mispelling "villain" is enough to make it commit suicide. :smallannoyed:

Obviously I'm just speculating here, but I think that Tarquin would be far more interested in gaining the services of a resourceful individual that is capable of escaping whenever he wishes. To make someone obey you through force is wasteful, and capable, high-level subordinates are far more valuable than the equipment that they posses.

Actually, upon consideration of the information that Tarquin has, I'm fairly certain that he knows that Roy works with Elan. Think about it, the bounty hunters that brought in your son got into a fight with this person. *You know there's a wizard in your castle, it seems like you may have some method of detecting sending spells somehow, figure out that the wizard contacted someone at the arena.* You go to the arena and find the person that's fighting and has a strange reaction to your appearance. *Schedule a fight in your son's honor to force him to go and provide confirming evidence.* Which was done when the cat intervened in Belkar's fight and the dialog between Belkar and V. Add to that Roy's reaction to Thogg and it becomes even harder to ignore.

*Speculations on my part, but I think it's pretty reasonable for a dictator manipulating a country.

[dtilque]

Also I might be mistaken, but looking at the layout of panel 1, I think Belkar has replaced all the gold and assorted items back into the bag of holding? I can't really tell what happened to the bag itself since we don't see Belkar and Roy carrying it, but I highly doubt they would leave the scene without taking the bag with them.

I'm quite sure Belkar put all Haley's stuff back in the bag of holding. And either he or Roy has it. Note it's the style of the strip that gear carried about the characters' persons is not shown except for large weapons. Unless it's important to the plot, that is, such as the miniature petrified Haley that Elan tucked into his belt. So either one could have it.

My guess is that Belkar has it. If Roy has it, then he'd just return it to Haley when they next meet without comment and nothing more would be said about it. But Belkar having it would provide an opportunity to show just how reformed he is. Does he try to keep it or give it back? If he gives it back, does he make a big to do about it or just do it quietly?

And if he does give it back, there's an opportunity to mess with Haley's head. If the situation were reversed, you know Haley would keep a sizable percentage of the gold (plus expenses) as a fee. She would expect Belkar to do the same. So if Belkar really wanted to mess with her head, he'd give all of it back without making an issue of it.

[EccentricFellow]

No-one considers the plight of the familiar so it is quite amusing that the Giant can open our eyes to some of the more tragic-comic aspects of it.

I also have to say I love the way Tarquin keeps everyone off-balance. You never know what that wacky guy is going to do next or how he is going to react. Makes each of his appearances interesting.

On a side note, even though this is way early, I do not think Elan is ever going to fight him. Something else may happen, but I do not anticipate that Tarquin ends his turns on the end of Elans rapier. Something much more unexpected than that.

Speaking of unexpected, haven't a clue yet what can happen at this point to the Belkster. Unless the Oracle got it wrong, or the Giant has trick up his sleeve (which he certainly may), I just don't see anything bringing down Belkar ..... Tarquin perhaps? I don't see it but I think that would be fairly unexpected.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I'm quite sure Belkar put all Haley's stuff back in the bag of holding. And either he or Roy has it. Note it's the style of the strip that gear carried about the characters' persons is not shown except for large weapons. Unless it's important to the plot, that is, such as the miniature petrified Haley that Elan tucked into his belt. So either one could have it.

My guess is that Belkar has it. If Roy has it, then he'd just return it to Haley when they next meet without comment and nothing more would be said about it. But Belkar having it would provide an opportunity to show just how reformed he is. Does he try to keep it or give it back? If he gives it back, does he make a big to do about it or just do it quietly?

And if he does give it back, there's an opportunity to mess with Haley's head. If the situation were reversed, you know Haley would keep a sizable percentage of the gold (plus expenses) as a fee. She would expect Belkar to do the same. So if Belkar really wanted to mess with her head, he'd give all of it back without making an issue of it.

That is Giant style thinking my friend. Kudos. Too bad he isn't hiring.

[thepsyker]

Has Blackwing ever talked around Belkar before?

With Roy we know that even when the Haley and Belkar recognized Blackwing as Vs familiar, he expressed confusion at what was going on so the fact that he is still confused by Blackwing would be consistent with those previous occasions.

So the issue comes from Belkar's reaction he doesn't express surprise at the birds presence or about the possibility that it is connected to V, just that it talks. So the question is has Blackwing ever talked around Belkar previously, if he hasn't maybe that is the source of Belkars surprise, he simply didn't realize that raven familiars could talk.

[factotum]

So the question is has Blackwing ever talked around Belkar previously, if he hasn't maybe that is the source of Belkars surprise, he simply didn't realize that raven familiars could talk.

Apparently he still doesn't, because they're still going on about Blackwing being some sort of astral projection rather than V's familiar--which, considering Belkar knew full well V had a raven familiar in the earlier strips, still doesn't jive. Given how much the Giant is belabouring this point (it wasn't much of a joke the first time), I'm beginning to think that something significant changed when Blackwing looked into the rift that nobody has noticed!

[Burner28]

Loved it when Blackwing said "You are both ignorant cretins.":smallbiggrin:

[Rules Lawyer #1]

Awesome comic!
Ditto on loving the nonchalant opening.
Tarquin shows his continued awesome.
I think we will have to wait and see what happens to Roy and Belkar. I would also like to point out that Roy's affiliation with Elan is non sequitur for readers evaluating Tarquin's position at this point in the comic because Tarquin has not revealed his awareness of a connection between Roy and Elan. Rather it is Belkar's perceived connection to Roy that results in Belkar not being immediately re-imprisoned. This should become apparent when you think about the facts that Tarquin is interested in recruiting Roy and that Roy and Belkar were convicted and sentenced together. Since Tarquin went through the trouble of finding out about the top contenders for fighting Thog, it follows that Tarquin went through the trouble of finding out that Belkar and Roy were imprisoned together for being in a barroom fight. Still, Tarquin is not likely to have missed the fact that Roy and Belkar have been re-equipped. I eagerly await the conversation Tarquin has with Roy. Did Tarquin make the same offer to Thog? Did Thog turn him down? Roy is now probably too popular to be executed (but Belkar isn't…).

Concerning the reoccurrence of the familiar Blackwing joke :smallsmile:
…this is the first time Blackwing has spoken in Belkar's or Roy's presence.
Ever.
Not to mention: how does one distinguish between one raven and another raven? How many ravens do you ever encounter that are capable of speech? I see this as Roy and Belkar giving "in character" reactions consistent with their meta-game knowledge of a running joke, which is not an uncommon phenomenon in gaming groups. When Roy, Belkar, or any other OoTS character uses meta-game knowledge such as knowing that Blackwing is V's familiar it means that they are not playing "in character". This kind of behavior would be observed primarily in PCs rather than NPCs (although the GM can also let slip).

Concerning V's chances of getting back to the Prime Plane… how much do you want to bet that Durkon receives too many negative levels to Plane Shift? Because unless V pulls a rabbit out of a hat (which is possible, of course), he is stuck. Of course, in order to make the shift they need to find a fork properly attuned to the Plane of Ranch, and not say… Balsamic Vinaigrette. All they have to do is get the salad fork from from Zz'dtri - oh wait - Tarquin has had Zz'dtri imprisoned and probably had his stuff impounded and not in the place where common criminals starting barroom brawls usually have their stuff impounded, right? Hah! Let the Quest for the Salad Fork begin!

All told this comic was awesome!!
Favorite Panels:
#4: Belkar saying "Who said that??"
#10: Roy's new fans

[FujinAkari]

Concerning V's chances of getting back to the Prime Plane… how much do you want to bet that Durkon receives too many negative levels to Plane Shift? Because unless V pulls a rabbit out of a hat (which is possible, of course), he is stuck. Of course, in order to make the shift they need to find a fork properly attuned to the Plane of Ranch, and not say… Balsamic Vinaigrette. All they have to do is get the salad fork from from Zz'dtri - oh wait - Tarquin has had Zz'dtri imprisoned and probably had his stuff impounded and not in the place where common criminals starting barroom brawls usually have their stuff impounded, right? Hah! Let the Quest for the Salad Fork begin!

Naaah, he had several scrolls of Dismissal and cast Banishment on the Demon... he's fine once he gets a night's rest.

[Karoug]

Haven't Roy and Belkar heard? B-B-B-Blackwing's the word!

Hilarious dialogue!

[Threadnaught]

Obviously I'm just speculating here, but I think that Tarquin would be far more interested in gaining the services of a resourceful individual that is capable of escaping whenever he wishes. To make someone obey you through force is wasteful, and capable, high-level subordinates are far more valuable than the equipment that they posses.

Actually, upon consideration of the information that Tarquin has, I'm fairly certain that he knows that Roy works with Elan. Think about it, the bounty hunters that brought in your son got into a fight with this person. *You know there's a wizard in your castle, it seems like you may have some method of detecting sending spells somehow, figure out that the wizard contacted someone at the arena.* You go to the arena and find the person that's fighting and has a strange reaction to your appearance. *Schedule a fight in your son's honor to force him to go and provide confirming evidence.* Which was done when the cat intervened in Belkar's fight and the dialog between Belkar and V. Add to that Roy's reaction to Thogg and it becomes even harder to ignore.

*Speculations on my part, but I think it's pretty reasonable for a dictator manipulating a country.

That's actually 3 empires made up of many countries. :smallwink:

But about him knowing Roy works with Elan, I did mention that in a previous post. Something else I believe? When Tarquin gathers the entire party together, which I think he will, he'll tell them he knows they're looking for the gate and how to find it/Girard.


All we're really doing for each comic is speculating until everything is explained in a later comic, the only one who knows for sure is The Giant and he only says something when too many people complain about something. Now I'm not saying he's lazy, I'm just saying he doesn't post in the forums often, enough for it to be an event when he does.


Edit: I fully expect a response from The Giant along the lines of "Sorry I couldn't fill up my forum post quota, I was too busy working on the next comic." unless I edit this post to make it look less whiny. So here's the edit, I wasn't complaining about all the time he spends on the comics.

Can someone take this damn shovel away from me? I think I can see Australia, I can't dig myself any deeper. :smallfrown:

[see]

Given how much the Giant is belabouring this point
The only people who are belaboring the point are the ones trying to read significance into it. Nobody in the strip is still going on about it being an astral projection or whatnot; it was quite clearly acknowledged in this very strip as a bird.

[ThePhantasm]

It is just a joke, folks.

[Mutant Sheep]

Edit: I fully expect a response from The Giant along the lines of "Sorry I couldn't fill up my forum post quota, I was too busy working on the next comic." unless I edit this post to make it look less whiny. So here's the edit, I wasn't complaining about all the time he spends on the comics.

Can someone take this damn shovel away from me? I think I can see Australia, I can't dig myself any deeper. :smallfrown:

*takes shovel*

The Giant doesn't have a forum post quota, and if he did, it'd one post a month (not including "comic is up", but any words after that count as a separate post.:smalltongue:)
*throws shovel away scared*:smalleek:

[Tass]

I'm quite sure Belkar put all Haley's stuff back in the bag of holding. And either he or Roy has it. Note it's the style of the strip that gear carried about the characters' persons is not shown except for large weapons. Unless it's important to the plot, that is, such as the miniature petrified Haley that Elan tucked into his belt. So either one could have it.

My guess is that Belkar has it. If Roy has it, then he'd just return it to Haley when they next meet without comment and nothing more would be said about it. But Belkar having it would provide an opportunity to show just how reformed he is. Does he try to keep it or give it back? If he gives it back, does he make a big to do about it or just do it quietly?

And if he does give it back, there's an opportunity to mess with Haley's head. If the situation were reversed, you know Haley would keep a sizable percentage of the gold (plus expenses) as a fee. She would expect Belkar to do the same. So if Belkar really wanted to mess with her head, he'd give all of it back without making an issue of it.

That is assuming they even saw the pile of treasure. They could be in another part of the arena.

[Mutant Sheep]

That is assuming they even saw the pile of treasure. They could be in another part of the arena.

Well, unless Kobold-Name-uk-uk moved the gold to a pile a couple hundred feet away, shouldn't the pile of magic equipment be with the gold it fell out with?

[warmachine]

For a city where there is little racial tension, it seems odd that Tarquin's entourage only consists of humans.

[Gift Jeraff]

That is assuming they even saw the pile of treasure. They could be in another part of the arena.It was right next to Belkar 2 strips ago.

[cc_kizz]

This strip doesn't specifically indicate that Belkar has forgotten Blackwing. Merely that he didn't expect this bird to talk. When Roy did his exposition, Belkar didn't say "oh" or chime in about a recent memory of Blackwing, so he wasn't participating in the memory exercise.

Also, those last two lines were hilarious. :-)

Also again, the bag of holding appears to have contents again. I'm assuming that's where all the gold is now. :)

[ThePhantasm]

For a city where there is little racial tension, it seems odd that Tarquin's entourage only consists of humans.

We've seen lizardfolk guards - several, in fact.

[Blisstake]

We've seen lizardfolk guards - several, in fact.

Guards and the general's personal entourage are two different things.

Although we've only seen 4 of them, so it wouldn't really be that statistically unlikely for all of them to be human even if it has plenty of lizardfolk.

[CrazyBlue]

That's actually 3 empires made up of many countries. :smallwink:

But about him knowing Roy works with Elan, I did mention that in a previous post. Something else I believe? When Tarquin gathers the entire party together, which I think he will, he'll tell them he knows they're looking for the gate and how to find it/Girard.

I don't see what your problem is with his reaction to Roy getting his equipment back if you think that he already knows that he's with Elan. I think I'd want my son adventuring with capable individuals. Should he be troubled when things are going in his favor?

[Dr.Epic]

So who thinks that's just Nale disguised as his dad and some sort of illusion?

Or is Girard casting an illusion that's the Empire far more likely?:smallwink:

[Adicted To]

This strip doesn't specifically indicate that Belkar has forgotten Blackwing. Merely that he didn't expect this bird to talk. When Roy did his exposition, Belkar didn't say "oh" or chime in about a recent memory of Blackwing, so he wasn't participating in the memory exercise.


I agree, Blackwing has never spoken directly to any member of The Order Of The Stick. Until recently he diden't even talk to V.

[FujinAkari]

So who thinks that's just Nale disguised as his dad and some sort of illusion?

Uh... no one? How would Nale disguise himself as his dad and talk to Roy about destroying the Arena when we -know- he doesn't know about that, being on the other side of the city?

[rolling 4]

:belkar: He only won because he didn't die first anyone can do that

[Dalek-K]

My prediction is without thinking give Haley her bag back (including all the gold) and go on his way (off screen). The OoTS will think its a trick. And freak out or try to get him to spill what he's up to. However Belkar won't realize he did something nice without thinking.

I did like Belkar and Roy's reaction to each other... like war buddies getting ready to take some names and chew bubble gum. Belkar had all the confidence in the world that Roy would win :D (he seperated roy's gear even)

[Threadnaught]

I don't see what your problem is with his reaction to Roy getting his equipment back if you think that he already knows that he's with Elan. I think I'd want my son adventuring with capable individuals. Should he be troubled when things are going in his favor?

The fact that I speculated that Tarquin knows Roy is working with his son, is about how I did just that. Speculated, it isn't a fact unless it's confirmed later, it is just mere speculation.

Another part of my speculation was Tarquin's reaction because, if Tarquin doesn't already know about their connection to Elan and Roy hasn't actually expressed any desire to actually work for Tarquin, then why let him keep the equipment before he knows for sure that Roy won't try to kill him immediately?

The problem doesn't exist if he knows Roy works with Elan. However, as I have already mentioned, nobody here actually knows but the writer.

[FujinAkari]

The problem doesn't exist if he knows Roy works with Elan. However, as I have already mentioned, nobody here actually knows but the writer.

While that's true, it would be -extremely- out of character for Tarquin to not have pieced that together by now.

[theinsulabot]

I dunno why he would be that worried about roy getting his equipment back. roy must have like, 4 HP at the moment and belkar is one person and can be guessed at weaker then roy owing to tarquin knowing roy was ranked higher. even if roy attacks, tarquin has to be pretty high level to have taken apart elan like he did, finishing off roy then gang rushing belkar with the mooks is probably a winning strategy.

[Forikroder]

if Tarquin is really observant hell notice Mr.Scruffy hanging with Belkar and know that the "aquantaince" that V was holding onto the cat for was Belkar

since Belkar and roy are together he knows everyone in the party but possibly Durkon but that wouldnt be too hard to piece together as well

Tarwuin himself is a high level character with a bunch of quards around him surrounding one heavily injured fighter and one ranger he would easily be able to hold them off in time to gather even more reinforcements

he knows theres no benefit to Roy for attacking now even if Roy was an assasin Roy would accept his offer of working hor him to get closer to him, higher level and better equipment

[brionl]

Elan & Durkon are so horrible at lying that I'm sure Tarquin knows they are together. And he probably at least suspects that Roy & Belkar are involved as well, not least reason being that they attacked the bounty hunters that captured Elan et al.

Probably the only misperception he still retains is that Elan is the leader of the party.

[Forealms]

So, did Roy and Belkar collect all of Haley's stuff? I'm going to assume so.

[Warren Dew]

I just noticed the visual joke in the second panel. Cute!

[Anarion]

Uh... no one? How would Nale disguise himself as his dad and talk to Roy about destroying the Arena when we -know- he doesn't know about that, being on the other side of the city?

Unless it's actually Elan and Nale's identical triplet Alen, who has been masquerading as their father this whole time!


I dunno why he would be that worried about roy getting his equipment back. roy must have like, 4 HP at the moment and belkar is one person and can be guessed at weaker then roy owing to tarquin knowing roy was ranked higher. even if roy attacks, tarquin has to be pretty high level to have taken apart elan like he did, finishing off roy then gang rushing belkar with the mooks is probably a winning strategy.

HP calculations are a bit rough. A lot of that damage could have been non-lethal. Although Tarquin himself is almost certainly safe from anything Roy could do at the moment, the mooks could be torn apart pretty easily if none of them can hit Roy, and with just Tarquin around Roy could effect an escape and at least cause a fair amount of chaos before being captured again. That won't happen because Roy isn't stupid enough to cause all the problems that would come with him making a break for it, but I think he could cause a lot of damage if he wanted.


So, did Roy and Belkar collect all of Haley's stuff? I'm going to assume so.

That seems to be the consensus. Belkar was next to the pile of gold, the armor was in the pile of gold and now the gold is gone and the bag and magic equipment were nicely laid out. Thus, Belkar likely replaced all the gold and packed up the bag.

[ORione]

I just noticed the visual joke in the second panel. Cute!

What joke?

[Ron Miel]

I just noticed the visual joke in the second panel. Cute!

What joke? If you mean the hinges in Roy's armour, that's not a joke, it's how armour was made. Discussed earlier in the thread.

[Who149]

I've noticed that the comic has been getting more and more detailed as time goes on. The small details really do add up

Good job giant

[Warren Dew]

What joke? If you mean the hinges in Roy's armour, that's not a joke, it's how armour was made. Discussed earlier in the thread.
The fact that the breastplate and backplate are flat and two dimensional, even when drawn in three dimensions.

[factotum]

The fact that the breastplate and backplate are flat and two dimensional, even when drawn in three dimensions.

Still not a joke, it's the way the art style works.

[Aurabolt]

Wow, Roy. I'm shocked that you don't know what a Familiar is, or that they can speak the same languages as the master. That's kinda sad.

[Spirited Charge]

Great comic Giant! Lots of good stuff coming from this strip: they get their stuff back, learn about everyone else's goings on (if not believing in the true source of this information), and get not only excused, but congratulated for destroying a most expensive Colosseum!

[Doug Lampert]

Wow, Roy. I'm shocked that you don't know what a Familiar is, or that they can speak the same languages as the master. That's kinda sad.

On the contrary, only Raven familiars can speak any normal language, and they get only one. It's a special ability of the Raven. Roy may well be familiar with other familiars and THAT is precisely WHY he doesn't believe that a familiar can speak.

[Warren Dew]

Still not a joke, it's the way the art style works.
Not true. Normally the art style always shows the two dimensional objects as parallel to the plane of the paper; otherwise Roy's torso would become just a line when he turned sideways.

[ORione]

Not true. Normally the art style always shows the two dimensional objects as parallel to the plane of the paper; otherwise Roy's torso would become just a line when he turned sideways.

Yes, but since Roy's body is parallel to the strip and the armor is not parallel to Roy, it couldn't be drawn like that. What do you expect? With this art style, it would have been hard to draw it to look three-dimensional.

[Snu]

I read Belkar's last lines a little differently -- To me, it sounds a bit less like a joke and a bit more like some ominous foreshadowing. Well, we'll see...

[bronnt]

I read Belkar's last lines a little differently -- To me, it sounds a bit less like a joke and a bit more like some ominous foreshadowing. Well, we'll see...

I guess that makes sense-still, it's not quite the same as foreshadowing since the Oracle already foreshadowed that.

At any rate, I guess Belkar has at least 5 weeks left. I don't feel like going back through how I figured this, but I know that at most two weeks have past since the strip where Roy said to Haley that Belkar still had 7 weeks. The strip where Elan met his father was only, what, three days ago in comic?

[factotum]

but I know that at most two weeks have past since the strip where Roy said to Haley that Belkar still had 7 weeks.

Er, how do you know that, exactly? Roy said that to Haley while they were on the island. Since then they've sailed to the mainland, crossed the desert to wherever the fake coordinates to Girard's Gate took them, searched around that location for at least a day (since the search montage shows some of it happening at night), got out of the desert again and started going around cities looking for Girard's associates. Even if Haley and the others were captured in literally the first city they looked in after coming out of the desert (which seems unlikely), you're suggesting the whole desert crossing took about a week--pretty darned fast considering the distance travelled!

In addition, saying he's got at least 5 weeks left is wrong--even if you're right about it only being 2 weeks since Roy said it, Belkar has *at most* 5 weeks left, because he dies before the end of the in-comic year.

[Silver Coin]

@Crossing desert: The sand worm made it faster. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0690.html

[Adicted To]

Also according to Roy they would follow the caravan for "a few days" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0682.html) after that they went west and immediately encountered the worm. On the worm it was a few hours to the gate instead of weeks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0690.html). Then 2 days tops at the fake gate location and according to the map (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html) they were close to the capital of The Empire Of blood, the largest and also the closest nation to there location. Ad three days in the capital sums up to 2 weeks (give or take)

A few days: 5 days
The worm: 1 day
Time at the fake gate: 2 days
To the empire of blood + wind walk to the capital: 3 days
Days in the capital: 3 days

Sums up to 14 days aka 2 weeks

[Ron Miel]

... Then 2 days tops at the fake gate location

6 days

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0692.html

[Ron Miel]

And they were in the dessert "last week"
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0801.html

[Gift Jeraff]

The Giant said 2 weeks had passed since Roy's seven weeks comment (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8569129&postcount=19) when #725 was the latest comic. Presumably 2 nights have passed since then (the night of the feast and the night of the parade), and it is now the morning/noontime of the third day of Elan's festival. (It could be the second day, depending on what Tarquin meant by 3 days, but considering this day has a big Linear Guild showdown, the laws of drama say this is probably the third and final day.)

[bronnt]

The Giant said 2 weeks had passed since Roy's seven weeks comment (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8569129&postcount=19) when #725 was the latest comic. Presumably 2 nights have passed since then (the night of the feast and the night of the parade), and it is now the morning/noontime of the third day of Elan's festival. (It could be the second day, depending on what Tarquin meant by 3 days, but considering this day has a big Linear Guild showdown, the laws of drama say this is probably the third and final day.)

Huh, being pretty new to the forums, I'm amazed that I actually pegged that right about where Rich intended it without having red his comment.

But yeah, here's how I figured it, in case anyone is wondering:

The day after (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html) Roy's comment about 7 weeks, Hinjo says he'll give the Order their fastest ship to send them to the Western Continent. Since Roy was actually optimistic about getting everything done in 7 weeks, there's no reason to think that most of the time was spent in transit-the next strip shows the Western Continent easily visible (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html), so you would think it's just a matter of days, which Rich seems to have confirmed. I'm putting this at 4 total days after Roy's proclamation.

They spend 1 day in Sandsledge. The attack by the slavers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0683.html) takes place the next day-the conversation between Belkar and Durkon clearly implies that, since Durkon "forgot" to prepare enough Endure Heats-surely Belkar would have complained if this had gone for several days. Not that Durkon would have necessarily done anything else, but the conversation would have been different. It's the next day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0687.html) that they split from the caravan (again, plenty of signs-Belkar is still burned but then is healed for his contributions, and you don't wait days to show your gratitude to adventurers rescuing you from slavers), which is when the worm shows up. The giant worm gets them to the gate in a few hours. That's 6 days after Roy's proclamation.

They then spend one week (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0692.html)searching the desert. After that, it's really an assumption as to how many days are spent searching the cities, but given the lack of desperation, I'm going to say that they haven't searched all 5 cities bordering the desert yet, so really, just a couple of days. That's about where the 2 week mark should be drawn.

And then 3 days in the Empire of Blood. So it's been slightly more than 2 weeks now, but fewer than 3. If you take Roy's 7 weeks comment at face value, Belkar should still have 4 weeks to live. Here is where the three days (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0727.html) are first mentioned, with the gladiator games coming at the end of it-they've stayed on that schedule.

[Zorgophlats]

If you take Roy's 7 weeks comment at face value, Belkar should still have 4 weeks to live.Nothing personal, but I beg to differ on this point here. Belkar has from -Now- through -4 Weeks from Now- until he dies. It can happen at any time within those constraints. He may live to see New Years Eve, but it isn't guaranteed. Seriously, the first panel on the next comic can have him laying down with (xx) eyes. All anyone needs to say is "Sneek Heart Attack" and that will be the end of it. I want Belkar to live, but I've come to terms with his possible demise. 4 weeks (comic time) may be enough to end the story, and Belkar might not live to witness it.