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ILM
2011-10-10, 07:27 AM
I'm trying to go with the following concept: a melee-type who fights defensively (or rather, fights tactically, with mobility and alternative combat maneuvers rather than RAWR DAMAGE) and later in her career, specializes in mage hunting. For roleplay reasons, she has to be human (possibly half-elf, but I really don't see why anyone would do that) and fights with a two-handed sword. Finally, I would like her to be viable from level 8 onwards, possibly even 6.

Now I realize that the best mage hunters are actually other casters and that even with all the right magic items, she's actually likely to get stomped by any competently-played full caster. I also realize that getting a two-handed sword and no Power Attack cheese is rather counter-productive. Still, humor me please: how good can we make her?

I have a few ideas I'm working on:
- I could have sworn I saw a two-handed sword (exotic) that provided some kind of bonus to AC - does that ring a bell? Otherwise I'll just go with the standard greatsword.
- Disarming could be useful to slap components out of casters' hands. Or sundering their spell component pouch.
- While I don't want carge+Power Attack to be her primary strategy, I'm not opposed to spike damage. Sometimes, you just gotta do what you gotta do. Also, dungeoncrasher.
- I guess I'll need Mage Hunter and Pierce Magic Protection. I also suppose Occult Slayer is a worthy PrC choice. I was also considering going Abjurant Champion (with a level or two of Wizard/Duskblade/Sorc to get in) to get some magical defense and nifty abilities.
- If there was any way to get a sword treated like a shield, I could go Paladin 4 and slap some Divine Shield on top. Otherwise, Paladin 2 would still be useful (horrible MAD, I know).
- I know there are some good defensive-minded maneuvers in ToB but I'd need some help in that department. Be advised that I generally dislike the Crusader due to his recovery mechanism.

So, starting proposal: Duskblade 4 (to get casting in medium armor)/ Paladin 4 (or 2, see above)/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Occult Slayer 5. That's a minimum of 2 extra levels to play with to get maneuvers (ToB), extra feats (Fighter) or more caster levels (Duskblade? Eldritch Knight?)

Feats would have to be Weapon Focus, Improved Initiative, Blind Fight, Mage Slayer, PMC, and Duskblade takes care of Combat Casting. Any other I should think of?

edit: actually Duskblade is a lame choice; while it does let me get into AC, the spell selection is less than optimal.

Daremonai
2011-10-10, 08:07 AM
You know that Duskblade 4/ abj. Champ 5 iwill leave you with a CL of only 1 after the penalties from Mage Hunter and PMC, right?

ILM
2011-10-10, 08:19 AM
You know that Duskblade 4/ abj. Champ 5 iwill leave you with a CL of only 1 after the penalties from Mage Hunter and PMC, right?
Yup; another problem. Practiced spellcaster offsets it a bit, but it still doesn't really work. I'd drop Abj Champ altogether but it seems there's so much good stuff in there...

Another possible, arguably better entry could be Sword of the Arcane Order with Paladin, but I'll have veeeeery few spell slots, and I still have the caster level problem.

Assuming I'm dropping all spellcasting, how about something like Paladin 2/ Crusader 1/Fighter 2/ Occult Slayer 5/ Witch Slayer 4 (or 5, but the capstone is kind of crap). Still has 6 levels to mess around with...

tyckspoon
2011-10-10, 10:31 AM
For Tome of Battle stuff, your best mage-survival tricks are in Diamond Mind with an honorable mention to Iron Heart (Iron Heart Surge and Wall of Blades- Wall of Blades does not specify weapon attacks, so you can use it to sword-parry a Ray or other touch/ranged touch attack too.) 4 levels of Warblade will let you ready all three of the Diamond Mind save replacers as well as one of IHS or Wall of Blades; you can also go with just a one or two level dip if you feel that you don't need one of the save replacers (Fort, for example, if you can find enough open feats to pick up Steadfast Determination; your Fort save is going to be quite high, and the feat will take care of auto-fail on a 1.. and the immune-to-mind-affecting from Occult Slayer will make the will one a bit less of a necessity, although there are still some non-Mind Affecting Will saves that will completely screw you over.)

Edit: Hmm. On checking up on Witch Slayer, I'd only take that to 2; getting Mettle out of it is the big selling point. Slippery Mind on 4 is ok, but redundant when you're already covered by the ability from Occult Slayer 5; every relevant Enchantment effect is also going to be Mind-Affecting. Maybe 3 if you really want Locate Possession as a fluff thing.

Dusk Eclipse
2011-10-10, 11:03 AM
You could go with a Psionic build and still take the full Mage Slayer line as feats are an exception to the psionic-magic transparency.

Psychic Warrior might help because that is a really feat intensive idea, Psychic Warrior 6/Slayer 2 is a good option to start.

ILM
2011-10-10, 11:14 AM
For Tome of Battle stuff, your best mage-survival tricks are in Diamond Mind with an honorable mention to Iron Heart (Iron Heart Surge and Wall of Blades- Wall of Blades does not specify weapon attacks, so you can use it to sword-parry a Ray or other touch/ranged touch attack too.) 4 levels of Warblade will let you ready all three of the Diamond Mind save replacers as well as one of IHS or Wall of Blades; you can also go with just a one or two level dip if you feel that you don't need one of the save replacers (Fort, for example, if you can find enough open feats to pick up Steadfast Determination; your Fort save is going to be quite high, and the feat will take care of auto-fail on a 1.. and the immune-to-mind-affecting from Occult Slayer will make the will one a bit less of a necessity, although there are still some non-Mind Affecting Will saves that will completely screw you over.)

Edit: Hmm. On checking up on Witch Slayer, I'd only take that to 2; getting Mettle out of it is the big selling point. Slippery Mind on 4 is ok, but redundant when you're already covered by the ability from Occult Slayer 5; every relevant Enchantment effect is also going to be Mind-Affecting. Maybe 3 if you really want Locate Possession as a fluff thing.
Don't I kind of need Thicket of Blades though? Which means Crusader? I mean, the Mage Slayer feat is only useful if I can prevent them from 5-foot stepping away.

Also, I figured about the same with Witch Slayer. In fact, I realized I can go Pious Templar and get Mettle for 1 level (at the cost of an extra feat).

Unfortunately psionics don't exist in our game, so all that is out. I'm currentyl looking at: Paladin 2/ Crusader 1/ Fighter 1/ Barb 1*/Pious Templar 1/ Occult Slayer 5/ Suel Arcanamach 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ either Suel Arcanamach +3 or Jade Phoenix Mage 3.
* with Favored enemy variant and Lion spirit totem

Yes, that's a load of classes. I still have issues with Mage Slayer/PMC; I can either ditch it altogether (ouch), take Practiced Spellcaster and eat a 'mere' -4 to CL (ouch), or take Practiced Spellcaster, Mage Slayer, and forget about PMC (also ouch).

Dusk Eclipse
2011-10-10, 11:35 AM
One interpretation of "Apply penalties and bonus in the way you prefer" is to apply Mage Slayer CL penalty first and then Abjurant Champion ability to set your CL as your BAB thus avoiding the penalty.

It is a good trick; but you should clear with your DM if it is allowed.

ILM
2011-10-11, 04:52 AM
You know, I'm thinking: a -4 penalty to CL isn't going to hamper my ability to cast the spells (considering Suel Arcanamach gives me 5th level spells and my CL will be BAB-4, well over the required 11 to cast), so my problem is duration, effect and most importantly, dispels.

Duration shouldn't be a problem since I'm getting free extend from SuA and free extend to abjuration on top from Abjurant Champion. Dispels shouldn't be a problem either since SuA's Tenacious Spells adds 6 to the DC to dispel my spells, bringing me to an equivalent caster level of BAB+2 (21, if my math is right); I could even tack on a Ring of Enduring Arcana (CM) for an extra +4. So the only remaining issue is for those spells with effects that scale according to CL. It isn't ideal, but I can live with that.

Build so far: Paladin 2/ Crusader 1/ Barb 1/ Fighter 1/ Pious Templar 1/ Occult Slayer 5/ Suel Arcanamach 4/ Abjurant Champion 5

I guess most of the good stuff from Occult Slayer can be replicated with magic items, but this character's going to be equipment-heavy already as is.

Speaking of which: after prerequisites, Mage Slayer, PMC, Practiced Spellcaster, Power Attack and Favoured PA, I have one feat slot left open. So far I've put Improved Sunder (to sunder those spell component pouches and/or rods and wands) but are there any other good choices? I've considered Shock Trooper but don't really want to go that way (plus, I don't have the slot open for Improved Bull Rush).