How much damage does this cause? (3.5)

[Kansaschaser]

Scene: During a battle with some bandits riding dinousars. Several days before, I had prepared several ballista sized arrows and shrunk them down to normal sized arrows with Shrink Item. The archer fired the arrows at the dinosaurs. After the arrows hit the targets (for 1d8+1 damage), I spoke the magic word to return the arrows to their normal size.

DM ruleing: No extra damage was caused. The arrows were destroyed upon impact, thus destroying the spell.

Second Scene: During a battle with hill giants. A few days before, I had prepared giant sized daggers and shrunk them down with Shrink Item as I had done with the arrows. The rogue hit one of the giants with the dagger causing normal damage (1d4+3 +4d6 sneak attack). Again, I spoke the magic word to return the dagger to it's normal size after the dagger was imbedded in the giant.

DM ruleing: None so far. We ended the game session during the battle since we were arguing about the damage. The DM said he would think about if my tricks cause any extra damage.

Question: How much damage do you think should have been done for the first scene and how much do you think should be done for the second scene?

Am I just being too creative for my own DM? Are my improvised ways of dealing damage too much for him to handle?

[Flickerdart]

Projectiles deal damage based on the weapon that fired them, so Shrunk Item'd arrows would still deal the normal damage.

Daggers do not embed themselves in things. You would need a weapon that actually does this (a riti'ik (sp?) for instance) and even then, things need to make a strength check to burst an enclosure or they stop growing. Guess how much strength your knife has.

[Emmerask]

Medium 1d4
Large 1d6
Huge 1d8

giant is not really a size category so I assume either large or huge :smallwink:

But this chart of course presumes that you use that weapon from the start, ie the impact (damage) you create is much greater due to mass.

So I would maybe give +1 dmg due to the additional cut created by the enlarging weapon but overall what your dm did was okay too.

[Kansaschaser]

Projectiles deal damage based on the weapon that fired them, so Shrunk Item'd arrows would still deal the normal damage.

Daggers do not embed themselves in things. You would need a weapon that actually does this (a riti'ik (sp?) for instance) and even then, things need to make a strength check to burst an enclosure or they stop growing. Guess how much strength your knife has.

Under the Enlarge spell, it states you are constricted by any enclosures you are in. There is nothing that states that in the Shrink item spell when you want to expand an item back to it's normal size.

So, wouldn't the individual that was stabbed with a piercing weapon have to make a strength check against the expanding object or take damage? I think they should automatically take damage.


Medium 1d4
Large 1d6
Huge 1d8

giant is not really a size category so I assume either large or huge :smallwink:

But this chart of course presumes that you use that weapon from the start, ie the impact (damage) you create is much greater due to mass.

So I would maybe give +1 dmg due to the additional cut created by the enlarging weapon but overall what your dm did was okay too.

Oh, when I say "giant sized", I should have stated that they were Colossal. Shrink Item shrinks them by 4 size categories. So they end up being Medium sized once they are shrunk.

[Emmerask]

The one with the weapon would have to make a strength check too... overall for these tiny damge increases you get for it, too much hassle for too little gain.

[SexyPlantLover]

i would say it does not do extra damage on a hit. if your dm is generous you may convince them to do extra damage when the item is pulled out like a harpoon (if the enemy lives long enough to pull it out)

it's not so much you're "too creative" in my opinion you're trying to get a lot of extra damage for (almost) free. in my game, i would tell you flat no, but i'd give you the spell slot back and say you never tried since your character would know the spell won't work like that.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

As a DM, I wouldn't make any collateral damage from a spell effect exceed 1d6 per spell level.

When you stab a giant with a dagger, assuming it would even penetrate deep enough to do any real damage, the dagger does not embed itself into the wound. Thus when it returns to a considerably larger size, it would expand in the direction of least resistance, i.e. outward rather than inward, and fall out of the wound causing no additional damage.

Shrink Item isn't a good spell to use on weapons, look into falling objects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#fallingObjects), or shrinking a pool of molten lava into a small cloth patch.

[Flickerdart]

Under the Enlarge spell, it states you are constricted by any enclosures you are in. There is nothing that states that in the Shrink item spell when you want to expand an item back to it's normal size.

So, wouldn't the individual that was stabbed with a piercing weapon have to make a strength check against the expanding object or take damage? I think they should automatically take damage.

Other size-enlarging spells (such as Righteous Might) have the same clause. It's the only rule that exists to adjudicate what should happen in a situation like that.

[Kansaschaser]

As a DM, I wouldn't make any collateral damage from a spell effect exceed 1d6 per spell level.

When you stab a giant with a dagger, assuming it would even penetrate deep enough to do any real damage, the dagger does not embed itself into the wound. Thus when it returns to a considerably larger size, it would expand in the direction of least resistance, i.e. outward rather than inward, and fall out of the wound causing no additional damage.

Shrink Item isn't a good spell to use on weapons, look into falling objects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#fallingObjects), or shrinking a pool of molten lava into a small cloth patch.

Yeah, I've done that too. I took a 1680(67d6 falling damage) pound boulder and shrunk it down. I've used them as falling objects several times, but the DM has never let me hit anyone with them. The bad guys have ALWAYS made their reflex saves to avoid my falling objects.

We have yet to encounter lava. Plus, when I asked the DM about shrinking lava, he said that the lava would continue to cool while shrunk, so it would end up being a chunk of rock several days later when used.

[Panartias]

I may be biased, because I used a similar trick once (did shrink ballista bolts with the old AD&D reduce) Upon dispelling they caused 10fold damage…:smallbiggrin:

[Incanur]

Shrink item is one of those spells I try to pretend doesn't exist. What a headache! :smallsigh:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Yeah, I've done that too. I took a 1680(67d6 falling damage) pound boulder and shrunk it down. I've used them as falling objects several times, but the DM has never let me hit anyone with them. The bad guys have ALWAYS made their reflex saves to avoid my falling objects.

We have yet to encounter lava. Plus, when I asked the DM about shrinking lava, he said that the lava would continue to cool while shrunk, so it would end up being a chunk of rock several days later when used.

Falling objects can't ever deal more than 20d6 damage.

Shrinking acid or similar can also work, though it's a bit tricky considering you have to touch it to cast the spell.

Green Slime (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/dungeons.htm#slimesMoldsAndFungi) is technically an object rather than a creature and thus a valid target for Shrink Object. Again it will be extremely tricky casting a touch-range spell on it, and you'll have to keep it out of sunlight, but it can be unbelievably effective.

[Incanur]

Falling objects can't ever deal more than 20d6 damage.

In the SRD, that limit only applies to damage from falling distance beyond 10 feet. The 1d6 damage per 200lbs has no cap. The Rules Compendium does sing a different tune, though.

[Kansaschaser]

Falling objects can't ever deal more than 20d6 damage.

Shrinking acid or similar can also work, though it's a bit tricky considering you have to touch it to cast the spell.

Green Slime (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/dungeons.htm#slimesMoldsAndFungi) is technically an object rather than a creature and thus a valid target for Shrink Object. Again it will be extremely tricky casting a touch-range spell on it, and you'll have to keep it out of sunlight, but it can be unbelievably effective.

I've never thought of using green slime. I'd probably have to use a metamagic rod of reach in order to shrink it without getting devoured.

In fact, I think once I can find some green slime, I'll put it in my dungeon and use it as a garbage disposal. Then every few days, I'll go down and shrink some of it for use later.