How come warlock is tier 4 and ToB is tier 3?

[The Underlord]

So I went over the tier systme list and I notcied something that, to my suprise, warlocks are tier 4. This suprised me because they are, in my opinion, tier three. How are thee ToB classes tier 3 and this is not? Lets analyse the definition of tier 3

Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with.
What can ToB classes do outside of combat(since that is their obvious expertise)? Warlocks, who can do combat pretty well at high levels (elitdritch blast does a decent amount of damage and touch attacks are a joke at higher levels. That is without elidritch essences and blast shapes). Oout of combat, they have various things for social encounters like devil's whisper and charm.
The tier system posts give three examples to decide tier.
1. Fight an ABD
A ToB classs is going to be very good at the fight itself, but will be useless against any traps along the way. A warlock however has at-will flight and can easily avoid some traps. The rest of the traps he can be dispell using relentless dispelling. As ABD touch armor is 8, the warlock should have no trouble blasting it.
2.You have been tasked by a nearby country with making contact with the leader of the underground slave resistance of an evil tyranical city state, and get him to trust you.
Devils whisper (suggestion, but afterwards must make a will save or beleives it was their own idea) and charm person should hande this quite nicely. Also invisbility at-will should help. A ToB class cant really do anything but fight so they can do that if the need arises but athor than that they cant really do anything else to contribute.
3. Army of orcs is coming help a city prepare. A warlock can animate undead if the city needs troops. Imperganateble barrier can serve as fortifactions. In the actual fight the various AoE elidrtch blasts should output some decent damage to the enemy troops. The baleful utterance invocation could be used to destroy sieg weapons. A ToB class can only fight in the battle.

As far as combat goes
Damage-Elidricth blast should be near on-par for damage as ToB classes. enough damage to be relevant, but not more than ToB classes.Since it is a touch attack, they wont need to worry about hitting at high levels, a luxury ToB dont get.
Battlefield control: warlocks are great at battlefield control. impregantble wall, wall of perilous flame, and chilling tenacles are all over this. I am not familar with ToB battle field control, but warlocks should be on-par if not better than ToB.
Debuffing: Utterdark blast+blast shape=win also a varity of elidritch essences provide status effects. I am pretty sure debuffing is not ToB strong suit so warlock wins here.

Conslusion Warlock is tier 3.

[faceroll]

ToB is good right out of the box, that's pretty much what makes it T3. You could optimize most of the T3 casters into T2 or T1, for instance. A well built bard will outperform ToB at just about anything.

Warlocks approach T2 if you abuse the **** out of UMD and being able to craft a scroll of anything, and optimize their eldritch blast with hellfire. but to get a warlock to play well needs a lot of work. They also don't get that many skills.

Personally, I think ToB is overrated. It places very solidly at high T4 or low T3 while stuff like Beguiler or Bard outclasses them. An optimized warmage is stronger than most ToB, and once you hit level 13, becomes T1. The tiers don't value optimization threshhold, though.

[Frosty]

On situation #1, yes the dragon's touch AC (might be) abyssmal (dragon might use a spell to turn his nat armor into a deflection bonus though)\, but hitting it is not the problem. The dragon has a fair shot at ripping the warlock apart is the issue I think.

I think a Warlock can do fairly well in situations 2 and 3.

As for the ToB classes, I think 2 of them have Diplomacy as a class skill, so they can do alright talking to the resistance leader at the very least. And in the third situation, the Crusader will REALLY shine when it gets into combat, because if you give a Crusader an army (literally), he turns them into terribly death-dealing machines.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Personally, I think ToB is overrated. It places very solidly at high T4 or low T3 while stuff like Beguiler or Bard outclasses them. An optimized warmage is stronger than most ToB, and once you hit level 13, becomes T1. The tiers don't value optimization threshhold, though.

I would respectfully disagree with your assessment. ToB not only get more 'you die now', they also get more 'I don't die' buttons than a Warmage gets. A moderately designed Swordsage can be pretty much immune to melee damage. Either a Swordsge or a Warblade can ignore 90% of what a Warmage does long enough to kill it. A Crusader, infinite damage loops aside, is still a solid tank with solid damage output and a cursedly annoying tendency to not fall down.

[The Underlord]

On situation #1, yes the dragon's touch AC (might be) abyssmal (dragon might use a spell to turn his nat armor into a deflection bonus though)\, but hitting it is not the problem. The dragon has a fair shot at ripping the warlock apart is the issue I think.

I think a Warlock can do fairly well in situations 2 and 3.

As for the ToB classes, I think 2 of them have Diplomacy as a class skill, so they can do alright talking to the resistance leader at the very least. And in the third situation, the Crusader will REALLY shine when it gets into combat, because if you give a Crusader an army (literally), he turns them into terribly death-dealing machines.

Warlocks can get invisiblity and can dispell any spell the dragon might use for touch armor. I am curious to see how a crusader can make an army killing machines. Also I forgot that warlocks can literally crafdt any scroll or wand with high enough UMD ( Dc 24 for 9th level arcane spells and 34 for 9th level divine spells which are easy to reach considering they can take ten on UMD checks)

[Telonius]

As far as combat goes
Damage-Elidricth blast should be near on-par for damage as ToB classes.

Maybe it "should be" but it isn't. Really, really, isn't. Warlock needs Hellfire to even begin to be a "semi-decent" damage dealer (and that takes it outside the scope of the Tier system, since it's brought in a PrC). If you aren't dishing out a whole lot more than 17d6 damage as a melee fighter, you're doing something wrong.

Within the ToB stuff, you can be both a battlefield controller and a gigantic damage dealer. Most melee classes have to pick one, and have the other be secondary. Things like Lightning Throw can give them ranged attacks. If it focuses on Shadow Hand, it can be a debuffer. If White Raven, a party buffer. It has options other than just "Hit the monster with a pointy stick." And if he wants to hit the monster with a pointy stick, he can do it better out of the can than most other melee classes can manage, absent heavy optimization. All that says "Tier 3" to me.

Warlocks do a whole bunch of things, and are incredibly fun to play, but they don't have much that really shines. That's Tier 4.

[AmberVael]

The major problem, if I am not mistaken, is that the warlock has a horrifically low number of invocations. As they get into higher levels it becomes a bit better for them, but until then... I mean, 12 invocations, total? That's paltry- you really can't get a good variety out of that, particularly with the list they have to choose from.

What's more, unlike the Tome of Battle classes, the warlock's invocations are not front loaded, and thus in the beginning they've only got one invocation, while a swordsage is running around with six maneuvers and a stance to boot.

As you get higher in level, Warlock starts becoming more and more viable, but even then, it has some disadvantages in comparison- it continues to have low end invocations for example, while the Tome of Battle types can swap out low maneuvers for higher maneuvers.

Also... Warlock does not have comparable damage. That is silly talk. All those d6s do look impressive, but when you start adding them up as compared to a decent combatant, they're nothing. At low levels their damage is laughable, and at higher levels they're outclassed even more thoroughly if the combatant is doing it right. They might close the gap some with Eldritch Glaive, but even then, they're better off working with their essences than going for damage.

[The Underlord]

Maybe it "should be" but it isn't. Really, really, isn't. Warlock needs Hellfire to even begin to be a "semi-decent" damage dealer (and that takes it outside the scope of the Tier system, since it's brought in a PrC). If you aren't dishing out a whole lot more than 17d6 damage as a melee fighter, you're doing something wrong.

Within the ToB stuff, you can be both a battlefield controller and a gigantic damage dealer. Most melee classes have to pick one, and have the other be secondary. Things like Lightning Throw can give them ranged attacks. If it focuses on Shadow Hand, it can be a debuffer. If White Raven, a party buffer. It has options other than just "Hit the monster with a pointy stick." And if he wants to hit the monster with a pointy stick, he can do it better out of the can than most other melee classes can manage, absent heavy optimization. All that says "Tier 3" to me.

Warlocks do a whole bunch of things, and are incredibly fun to play, but they don't have much that really shines. That's Tier 4.

Can the ToB classe do enything outside of combat though? also fixed OP since at a second look warlocks dont do that much damage with elidtrich blast.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Can the ToB classe do enything outside of combat though?

Considering their skill selection? Yes. Swordsages makes for awesome scouts and party face roles. For that matter, Warblade has Diplomacy, Sense Motive, and Bluff on their skill list, so they should be able to function as party face.

[Draz74]

It's certainly a fuzzy borderline, but here's a few things you may have missed:


What can ToB classes do outside of combat(since that is their obvious expertise)?
Skills, mostly. Swordsage gets a lot of skill points and has access to Hide/Move Silently, Sense Motive, Listen, Intimidate, Knowledge(local), etc. Warblade gets a lot of skill points and has access to Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge(local), etc. Crusader has fewer skill points, but again has some useful ones, such as Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Know(religion).

Warlocks have a good skill list too, but with 2+Int skill points and little reason to focus on Intelligence, they don't tend to be able to make use of it. Just giving them more skill points might boost them up a tier, as they could actually put Bluff, Sense Motive, Know(religion), and Know(arcana) to use. Instead, they mostly just use their skill points on Concentration, UMD, and maybe Know(arcana) or Spellcraft; no points left over for their other cool options. They use skills to make their class features work, not use skills to actually affect the campaign.

(Granted, Swordsages and Warblades might use some of their skill points just to make their class features work too: Concentration and Jump. But the things they can do with Concentration and Jump are way cooler than the things a Warlock can do with Concentration; almost as cool as the things a Warlock can do with UMD. And even after this skill-tax, they come out ahead of Warlocks on discretionary skill points.)

Crusaders (and to a lesser extent Warblades) also get some ally-buffing abilities that can be useful in non-combat leadership scenarios. And ToB maneuvers (especially Shadow Hand) can give some pretty awesome out-of-combat mobility and stealth abilities, not quite on par with the Warlock's flight/invis/teleportation powers, but close.

And then there's breaking stuff. When you want to cheat a dungeon by going right through a stone wall, Mountain Hammer is a lot faster than chiseling away with Eldritch Blasts.

Depending on the DM, Iron Heart Surge can be pretty handy out-of-combat, e.g. for bypassing hazardous dungeon terrain or throwing off enchantment effects in a social encounter.


Warlocks, who can do combat pretty well at high levels (elitdritch blast does a decent amount of damage
Here's one of your major misunderstandings. Eldritch Blast, without any twinking, actually does a pitiful amount of damage at high levels. It's like a Rogue making one Sneak Attack per turn ... without even adding his base weapon damage. Just sneak attack damage.

Yeah, Warlocks can be built carefully to do well in combat, but then, so can ToB classes. "Out-of-the-box," a Crusader is going to do a lot more damage in combat than a Warlock is.


and touch attacks are a joke at higher levels.
Heck, normal attacks are a joke at higher levels. :smallwink: That's why Power Attack is good -- AC just doesn't scale as fast as attack bonuses do. So if you think ToB characters will be missing their targets a lot at high levels, think again. (Not to mention, they have several ways of getting touch attacks themselves.)


Oout of combat, they have various things for social encounters like devil's whisper and charm.
Besides low skill points and poor EB damage, the Warlock's major weakness is just not getting a big enough variety of Invocations. I've rarely seen a Warlock build that managed to fit Devil's Whisper in, and sometimes even Charm can't make the cut.

Also, once the Warlock chooses his Invocations, he's stuck with them forever (barring an ally using Psychic Reformation or somesuch). ToB classes only get to ready a few abilities at a time, but at least in between encounters they can adapt a bit and swap maneuvers in and out. I don't know if that makes ToB more flexible than Warlocks, since they're still limited to Maneuvers Known, but it helps. (Warlocks would certainly be high-Tier-3 if they could swap their Invocations around daily.)


3. Army of orcs is coming help a city prepare. A warlock can animate undead if the city needs troops. Imperganateble barrier can serve as fortifactions. In the actual fight the various AoE elidrtch blasts should output some decent damage to the enemy troops. The baleful utterance invocation could be used to destroy sieg weapons. A ToB class can only fight in the battle.
White Raven can do a heck of a lot more than just "fight" in a mass battle like this.


Damage-Elidricth blast should be near on-par for damage as ToB classes. Since it is a touch attack, they wont need to worry about hitting at high levels, a luxury ToB dont get.
Nope ... ToB characters do a lot of damage. An equal-optimization Warlock can't hope to compete.

Besides, as other people have hinted at, you're neglecting surviving damage, not just dishing it out. ToB has a lot better defenses than a Warlock -- especially if the Warlock gets close to combat in order to use some of her better damage-boosting abilities, such as Eldritch Glaive or Claws.


Battlefield control: warlocks are great at battlefield control. impregantble wall, wall of perilous flame, and chilling tenacles are all over this. I am not familar with ToB battle field control, but warlocks should be on-par if not better than ToB.
That's true. Discounting Tier 1/2, Warlocks probably have the best battlefield control in the game, except for Dragonfire Adepts.

But Crusaders or Warblades are ok too, with reach weapons and Thicket of Blades.


Debuffing: Utterdark blast+blast shape=win also a varity of elidritch essences provide status effects. I am pretty sure debuffing is not ToB strong suit so warlock wins here.

Um. Check out White Raven Hammer, Swooping Dragon Strike, Dazing Strike, Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike ... yeah, ToB has some pretty killer debuffs. (Pun not intended.)


Warblade has Diplomacy, Sense Motive, and Bluff on their skill list, so they should be able to function as party face.

I wish. Just Diplomacy, unfortunately. (But ToB is pretty friendly to multiclassing, and Martial Study (Setting Sun) can add Sense Motive to your skill list.)

[Seerow]

The major problem, if I am not mistaken, is that the warlock has a horrifically low number of invocations. As they get into higher levels it becomes a bit better for them, but until then... I mean, 12 invocations, total? That's paltry- you really can't get a good variety out of that, particularly with the list they have to choose from.


Crusader has 14 maneuvers known and only 7 ready at any given time. Warblade has 13/7.

How is it they are considered tier 3 by virtue of versatility when the warlock has more powers available at any given moment, and typically better quality powers? (Compare at will flight to ignore DR and deal some extra damage)

[TroubleBrewing]

If the Tier system were only about combat, classes like the Warmage would be Tier 2.

The tiers measure versatility. Yes, ToB can do stuff outside of combat. They've all got 4+int mod skills or better, with decent lists. Stone Dragon is also known as Boot-Sized-Lockpick, and most of the stances provide a bonus that is useful outside of combat, such as Scent, concealment, etc.

EDIT: Wow, CRAZY swordsage'd. I mean, ouch.

[faceroll]

I would respectfully disagree with your assessment. ToB not only get more 'you die now', they also get more 'I don't die' buttons than a Warmage gets. A moderately designed Swordsage can be pretty much immune to melee damage. Either a Swordsge or a Warblade can ignore 90% of what a Warmage does long enough to kill it. A Crusader, infinite damage loops aside, is still a solid tank with solid damage output and a cursedly annoying tendency to not fall down.

Versatile Spellcaster shenanigans into Warsnake. I think you can get Disintegrate by level 4; not sure though.

With appropriate domain/deity choice, you can get some 1/day abilities that are much more powerful than what ToB gets, like lesser planar binding or heck, just a fly spell.

But again, optimization threshholds. ToB can't really be optimized that much beyond "moar damage," due to a dearth of 1st party ToB material. They start out low T3 and stay there. Warmage starts out mid T4 and, with warsnake, goes up to T1.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Can the ToB classe do enything outside of combat though? also fixed OP since at a second look warlocks dont do that much damage with elidtrich blast.

Yes. Oh Pelor yes. Swordsage has tons of maneuvers than can be used outside of combat (admitteldy mostly Shadow Hand). All the skill lists are good and have good amount of points to use them. Stone Dragon can be used as dungeon remodeling as well with any other maneuvre that jacks up the damage or ignores Hardness. The save replacer's can be used against spell traps as easily as regular spells. Aura of Perfect Order lets you take 11 once per round. On any d20 roll. That includes skill checks. I'm sure there is more but thats all I can think of off the top of my head.

EDIT: Swordsage'd hard core! Thoroughly appropriate if you ask me.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Crusader has 14 maneuvers known and only 7 ready at any given time. Warblade has 13/7.

How is it they are considered tier 3 by virtue of versatility when the warlock has more powers available at any given moment, and typically better quality powers? (Compare at will flight to ignore DR and deal some extra damage)

Because ToB classes can swap out low-level maneuvers for high-level ones when they level up, in addition to getting new ones, while a warlock is stuck with the same crappy low-level invocations.

[The Underlord]

Considering their skill selection? Yes. Swordsages makes for awesome scouts and party face roles. For that matter, Warblade has Diplomacy, Sense Motive, and Bluff on their skill list, so they should be able to function as party face.

Swordsages can do skills well, I will give you that but you seem to have made a mistake, warblades dont get diplomacy or sense motive. overall the skill lists for ToB classes, are pretty decent. Also you seem to be ignoring the easly craft items requiring any spell without actually knowing the spells.

[gkathellar]

SDamage-Elidricth blast should be near on-par for damage as ToB classes. Since it is a touch attack, they wont need to worry about hitting at high levels, a luxury ToB dont get.

No, your math is wrong. A 20th-level warlock averages a baseline 31.5 damage per Eldritch Blast. There are ways to boost this, but there are far more ways to boost melee damage. So at the end of the day, a warlock 17/hellfire warlock 3 is boasting maybe 52.5 average DPR, while even optimized Tier 5s can hit for substantially more.


Battlefield control: warlocks are great at battlefield control. impregantble wall, wall of perilous flame, and chilling tenacles are all over this. I am not familar with ToB battle field control, but warlocks should be on-par if not better than ToB.

Depends on the discipline. White Raven has amazing buffing/battlefield control. Iron Heart, not so much.


Debuffing: Utterdark blast+blast shape=win also a varity of elidritch essences provide status effects. I am pretty sure debuffing is not ToB strong suit so warlock wins here.

Most Warlock debuffing is mediocre, and Utterdark Blast only comes in at late levels. Shadow Hand, on the other hand? Excellent debuffing from relatively early on.


Conslusion Warlock is tier 3.

No, because it's not especially good at any of its roles. ToB classes meet the criteria for Tier 3 because they're excellent in melee combat and have good skills and a variety of other capabilities beside that make them versatile outside of a fight. Warlocks, on the other hand, can do a lot of things in and out of a fight, but they're not especially good at any of them.

[AmberVael]

Crusader has 14 maneuvers known and only 7 ready at any given time. Warblade has 13/7.

How is it they are considered tier 3 by virtue of versatility when the warlock has more powers available at any given moment, and typically better quality powers? (Compare at will flight to ignore DR and deal some extra damage)

It's easy to look at that and come to that conclusion, but here are the facts I brought up that addressed this point-

1) Warlock does in fact catch up- later (if not surpass them)
2) ToB classes, however, are frontloaded while the warlock is not (yes, that warblade only has one more maneuver than the warlock has invocations in the end... but said warblade has consistently about twice as many maneuvers as the warlock does invocations in the beginning).
3) Also, there are stances (they're generally as good as maneuvers if you pick the right ones, so that really adds on to the versatility)

This said, there is a reason that I used swordsage as an example. I personally feel that Swordsage- particularly a swordsage that progresses into Master of Nine- is one of the more versatile and useful Tome of Battle classes. It doesn't have quite the same sheer power to it that a warblade or crusader has, but it makes that up in options, and options are how you do the best in D&D.


Anyway, if you consider my three points above, I think the reason becomes more clear, particularly when you consider that a lot of people don't actually get all that far past the mid levels... which also means the warlock doesn't have nearly as much chance to use their awesome UMD skills.

In high levels, yeah, warlock becomes a lot better and is probably more of a tier 3 class (if you do it right, that is- there are a lot of trap invocations). They're a lot more quadratic than linear, the problem is just that they start off so slow.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Versatile Spellcaster shenanigans into Warsnake. I think you can get Disintegrate by level 4; not sure though.

With appropriate domain/deity choice, you can get some 1/day abilities that are much more powerful than what ToB gets, like lesser planar binding or heck, just a fly spell.

But again, optimization threshholds. ToB can't really be optimized that much beyond "moar damage," due to a dearth of 1st party ToB material. They start out low T3 and stay there. Warmage starts out mid T4 and, with warsnake, goes up to T1.

Depends on if you go by Text or Table on Warsnake build. But then, tacking on a Tier 1 spell list onto ANYTHING is going to make it a Tier 1 class.

I also strongly disagree that ToB 'can't really be optimized that much beyond moar damage", but if you haven't read the half dozen or so posts depicting just how to do it, then you'd probably not bother reading mine either, so there's no real point in rehashing something posted just two or three posts up.

Swordsage, in particular, can still ignore everything a Warblade can do, and a Warblade can just BY CROM!!!! anything annoying away.

[Eldariel]

Versatile Spellcaster shenanigans into Warsnake. I think you can get Disintegrate by level 4; not sure though.

Tier list doesn't account for PRCs. Otherwise Bard would be Tier 2 (Sublime Chord), Warmage/Beguiler would be Tier 1 at level 11 (Rainbow Servant), etc. It's about the base classes.

[jiriku]

Ultimately, warlocks have three things going against them;
They are not really all that good at ranged combat. While accurate, eldritch blast doesn't deal much damage. They can't attack multiple targets, deliver status effects, or confront immunities and resistances without blast shapes and blast essences - which cost them versatility outside of combat.
You need to know several invocations to support most tricks. Flying in a globe of darkness that you can see through is pretty potent, but takes three invocations. Being "social" costs at least two.
Warlocks don't have the ability to change their capabilities from one day to the next.

So basically, doing anything well requires a heavy investment of invocations, and you have so few invocations that you can't do many things well. Further, you can't change your invocations. In fact, when you really think about it, the warlock is a lot more like a fighter than any other class, but gains invocations instead of bonus feats. He's just a tier above the fighter because invocations are better than feats.

If a warlock got a slightly more favorable progression for eldritch blast damage, more invocations known, and the ability to change his known invocations each day, he'd definitely be tier 3. For example, you might do the following:
Eldritch blast uses the sneak attack damage progression, and the dice becomes d8's instead of d6's at 11th level.
A warlock knows 2 invocations at 1st level, and gains one more invocation at each additional level.
A warlock prepares his invocations like a spirit shaman prepares spells, choosing a new set of invocations known each day by spending an hour negotiating a pact with whatever source provides his powers.

[faceroll]

If the Tier system were only about combat, classes like the Warmage would be Tier 2.

The tiers measure versatility. Yes, ToB can do stuff outside of combat. They've all got 4+int mod skills or better, with decent lists. Stone Dragon is also known as Boot-Sized-Lockpick, and most of the stances provide a bonus that is useful outside of combat, such as Scent, concealment, etc.

Warlocks are SAD to the point that they don't even need a primary combat stat, which means they can afford to put a 12 or 14 in intelligence, depending on point buy. Their skill list is also decent. Human, with 12 int, gets to be good at 4 things- UMD, lyings, spellcraft, smattering of knowledges.

Warlocks have some great invocations:
They've got Beguiling Influence, Spiderwalk, The Dead Walk, Flee the Scene, Fell Flight, Voidsense, Walk Unseen, Chilling Tentacles, Devour Magic, Warlock's Call, Dark Discorporation, Dark Foresight, Path of Shadow, Retributive Invisibility, and Word of Changing.

The problem is that they get so few of them.

[gkathellar]

Versatile Spellcaster shenanigans into Warsnake.

That's why Rainbow Servant is a Tier -2 or Tier -3 PrC. You can't seriously talk about how Warmages are powerful and then bring it into a conversation, because once they take it they're spontaneous full-list clerics, not Warmages.

[Dictum Mortuum]

Versatile Spellcaster shenanigans into Warsnake. I think you can get Disintegrate by level 4; not sure though.

Seriously :P?
That build only gets one level of Warmage and it doesn't always work with all DMs (at least the ones I've tried). Plus you need to defend the 'text trumps table position', otherwise you're pretty much screwed.

Most ToB classes do not even require multiclassing and work out-of-the-box.

[faceroll]

Seriously :P?
That build only gets one level of Warmage and it doesn't always work with all DMs (at least the ones I've tried). Plus you need to defend the 'text trumps table position', otherwise you're pretty much screwed.

Most ToB classes do not even require multiclassing and work out-of-the-box.

Human warmage 20. Pick up Arcane Disciple: Rune. Win the game.

If you want to win it faster, pick up versatile spellcaster, heighten spell, earth sense, earth spell, and easy metamagic: heighten spell. Your 2nd level spell slots are shooting disintegrates. Your 1st level slots are binding outsiders.


Depends on if you go by Text or Table on Warsnake build. But then, tacking on a Tier 1 spell list onto ANYTHING is going to make it a Tier 1 class.

I also strongly disagree that ToB 'can't really be optimized that much beyond moar damage", but if you haven't read the half dozen or so posts depicting just how to do it, then you'd probably not bother reading mine either, so there's no real point in rehashing something posted just two or three posts up.

Swordsage, in particular, can still ignore everything a Warblade can do, and a Warblade can just BY CROM!!!! anything annoying away.

Oh yes, IHS abuse. If your DM's really going to let you IHS the sun away, then everyone should pick it up with a couple feats. That, and IHS takes a standard action. That can actually be a rather big deal.

Skill optimization is cool and all, but rogues get 8 skill points a level and still hang out nestled in T4. Skills just don't strike me as particularly awesome next to stuff like Dread Necromancer and Beguiler playing minion-mancy.

As for stone dragon lock picks- anyone can do that with an adamantine weapon. Those become party affordable by level 5 or so and don't have annoying "have to be standing on the ground" restrictions.

ToB has good defensive capabilities and can deal fairly well with stuff casters throw at them. That's really what makes them T3 material. Use your immediate action to negate an attack or make your save better. But those maneuvers are very hard to optimize as there will always be an action cost. There's also the issue of only being able to ready one at a time.


Tier list doesn't account for PRCs. Otherwise Bard would be Tier 2 (Sublime Chord), Warmage/Beguiler would be Tier 1 at level 11 (Rainbow Servant), etc. It's about the base classes.

Yeah, I know.
See here

The tiers don't value optimization threshhold, though.


Seriously :P?
That build only gets one level of Warmage and it doesn't always work with all DMs (at least the ones I've tried). Plus you need to defend the 'text trumps table position', otherwise you're pretty much screwed.

Most ToB classes do not even require multiclassing and work out-of-the-box.

Did you miss this in my first post:

The tiers don't value optimization threshhold, though.

[edit]
Are you the Dictum Mortuum?

[Incanur]

If the Tier system were only about combat, classes like the Warmage would be Tier 2.

:smallconfused: Is blasting really that good in battle? I'm pretty sure pouncing barbarian dish out more raw damage to a single target.

[Frosty]

Warlocks can get invisiblity and can dispell any spell the dragon might use for touch armor. I am curious to see how a crusader can make an army killing machines. Also I forgot that warlocks can literally crafdt any scroll or wand with high enough UMD ( Dc 24 for 9th level arcane spells and 34 for 9th level divine spells which are easy to reach considering they can take ten on UMD checks)Dragons have problems vs Invisibility? When did THAT start happening? :smallconfused:

As for Crusaders, look very carefully at the White Raven discipline, also known as the Mr. Teamwork discipline. Some stances and maneuvers give ALL allies withina certain distance some nifty bonuses. Then there's a maneuver that basically says: You charge the target. All your allies within X feet also charge the target. +2 damage per person charging (iirc, even yuor allies get that damage bonus?). Killing-machine indeed.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Ultimately, warlocks have three things going against them;
They are not really all that good at ranged combat. While accurate, eldritch blast doesn't deal much damage. They can't attack multiple targets, deliver status effects, or confront immunities and resistances without blast shapes and blast essences - which cost them versatility outside of combat. Eldritch Chain and Eldritch Cone both say hi for hitting multiple targets. Hindering Blast, Nauseating Blast, and Bewitching Blast all say high concerning status effects. They are innately bypassing any and all immunities other than arbitrarily high SR, which can be bypassed.

However, here's the trick: Those are all Lesser or Greater invocations. Most of your out-of-combat essences are Least. So no, it doesn't really affect their versatility outside of combat in the slightest.

You need to know several invocations to support most tricks. Flying in a globe of darkness that you can see through is pretty potent, but takes three invocations. Being "social" costs at least two.Not really. The Darkness/Devil's Sight/HiPS trick is really one of the biggest traps. Being 'social' costs one invocation.

Warlocks don't have the ability to change their capabilities from one day to the next.Which is why many Warlocks are human and go Chameleon2. Floating Feat + Extra Invocation = flexibility.

[The Underlord]

Dragons have problems vs Invisibility? When did THAT start happening? :smallconfused:

As for Crusaders, look very carefully at the White Raven discipline, also known as the Mr. Teamwork discipline. Some stances and maneuvers give ALL allies withina certain distance some nifty bonuses. Then there's a maneuver that basically says: You charge the target. All your allies within X feet also charge the target. +2 damage per person charging (iirc, even yuor allies get that damage bonus?). Killing-machine indeed.

The key here is a certain distance. Most of them I believe effect allies up to a 30 ft range. If your army is that small it is a pretty pitiful army.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Skill optimization is cool and all, but rogues get 8 skill points a level and still hang out nestled in T4. Skills just don't strike me as particularly awesome next to stuff like Dread Necromancer and Beguiler playing minion-mancy.

As for stone dragon lock picks- anyone can do that with an adamantine weapon. Those become party affordable by level 5 or so and don't have annoying "have to be standing on the ground" restrictions.

ToB has good defensive capabilities and can deal fairly well with stuff casters throw at them. That's really what makes them T3 material. Use your immediate action to negate an attack or make your save better. But those maneuvers are very hard to optimize as there will always be an action cost. There's also the issue of only being able to ready one at a time.


Its not the skills, but the fact they don't suck at skills. They excel at what they do and do other things fairly well.

On Stone Dragon lockpicks, the difference is you can use them on Adamentitine things (Adamentine Hardness is too high for Adamentine weapons to ignore) and they can be used on any matter of objects not just locks. Like a wall for example. Who can break through a 1-ft thick wall of stone quicker, a Warblade with the highest "ignore hardness" manuever he has at the given level or any other full BAB class with an Adamentine weapon? Assume both have BAB=HD, using the same weapon and have Power Attack.

But otherwise, you are correct.

[faceroll]

Its not the skills, but the fact they don't suck at skills. They excel at what they do and do other things fairly well.

On Stone Dragon lockpicks, the difference is you can use them on Adamentitine things (Adamentine Hardness is too high for Adamentine weapons to ignore) and they can be used on any matter of objects not just locks.

Adamantine things are worth an extraordinary amount of wealth. If I ever put an adamantine door in a dungeon, it'd be as loot. :smallwink:

But fair point.


Like a wall for example. Who can break through a 1-ft thick wall of stone quicker, a Warblade with the highest "ignore hardness" manuever he has at the given level or any other full BAB class with an Adamentine weapon? Assume both have BAB=HD, using the same weapon and have Power Attack.

But otherwise, you are correct.

At level 5 and below, the Warblade has the advantage. Unless it's a whirling frenzy barbarian or has dropped a point of BAB for a level in monk. Once the fighter begins getting iteratives, it quickly outclasses the warblade in damage output, especially if using damage multipliers like leap attack.

[MesiDoomstalker]

The key here is a certain distance. Most of them I believe effect allies up to a 30 ft range. If your army is that small it is a pretty pitiful army.

Show me how a Warlock can affect an entire army. Show me how ANY caster can affect an entire army through buffing. With a range of 30 feet, you can easily fit up to 10 allies, give them significant boost to damage, probably enough to oneshot the opposing 1st level Warriors, and do that every round as long as there is enemies withing charge range. 2 rounds, thats 20 enemies down. With some tatics, you can easily fit more allies into the radius and have them still benefit every round.

[ranagrande]

Text trumping table isn't something that needs to be defended. It's the rule. The first two sentences in the errata for all three core books (the DMG, PHB, and MMI) are


When you find a disagreement between two D&D rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Adamantine things are worth an extraordinary amount of wealth. If I ever put an adamantine door in a dungeon, it'd be as loot. :smallwink:

But fair point.



At level 5 and below, the Warblade has the advantage. Unless it's a whirling frenzy barbarian or has dropped a point of BAB for a level in monk. Once the fighter begins getting iteratives, it quickly outclasses the warblade in damage output, especially if using damage multipliers like leap attack.

Ah, but aside from iteratives, a ToB class can use the same ones. In fact, a Warblade focusing on Tiger Claw would be more reliably use leap attack than a fighter because of the manuevers that run off it or more benefits from it. But, I admit, getting iteratives essentially double the damage output at 6, triple at 11, and quadruple at 16. But at that point, just ask the Wizard to disintegrate the dang thing.

[Hiro Protagonest]

1. Fight an ABD
A ToB classs is going to be very good at the fight itself, but will be useless against any traps along the way. A warlock however has at-will flight and can easily avoid some traps. The rest of the traps he can be dispell using relentless dispelling. As ABD touch armor is 8, the warlock should have no trouble blasting it.Iron Heart Focus to succeed on saves for traps. Wall of Blades to block attacks from traps. And for touch AC, get Power Attack and Emerald Razor and eat your heart out.

2.You have been tasked by a nearby country with making contact with the leader of the underground slave resistance of an evil tyranical city state, and get him to trust you.
Devils whisper (suggestion, but afterwards must make a will save or beleives it was their own idea) and charm person should hande this quite nicely. Also invisbility at-will should help. A ToB class cant really do anything but fight so they can do that if the need arises but athor than that they cant really do anything else to contribute.
Diplomacy is on the skill list of crusader and warblade, and swordsage can help with sense motive.

3. Army of orcs is coming help a city prepare. A warlock can animate undead if the city needs troops. Imperganateble barrier can serve as fortifactions. In the actual fight the various AoE elidrtch blasts should output some decent damage to the enemy troops. The baleful utterance invocation could be used to destroy sieg weapons. A ToB class can only fight in the battle.
A ToB class can use aid another to help make fortifications. Then when the time for battle comes, a White Raven focused warblade or crusader can really help basic troops, and any ToB character could cut through the horde with ease, using things like Mithral Tornado and Dragon's Flame for warblade and swordsage, while crusader has a heavy focus on White Raven and Devoted Spirit, with Thicket of Blades + Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip/Stand Still making the enemy focus on him, while using Stone Power to keep his HP up, while still hitting the low-CR orcs.

As far as combat goes
Damage-Elidricth blast should be near on-par for damage as ToB classes. enough damage to be relevant, but not more than ToB classes.Since it is a touch attack, they wont need to worry about hitting at high levels, a luxury ToB dont get.
Emerald Razor + full BAB + Power Attack.
Feral Death Blow to deal with weakling mages and tricksy rogues.
Sudden Leap to get around quickly, combine with Leaping Dragon Stance for extra goodies.
Shadow Stride + Shadow Blink: Teleport 100 feet right on top of the dragon, then stay on as long as possible while sticking a sword in his back.
Crusaders don't have to be excellent at damage or mobility, they just stand there taking everything, and firing a bow if the enemy's flying.

Battlefield control: warlocks are great at battlefield control. impregantble wall, wall of perilous flame, and chilling tenacles are all over this. I am not familar with ToB battle field control, but warlocks should be on-par if not better than ToB.
Setting Sun's throw line of maneuvers.
Thicket of Blades + Improved Trip/Stand Still.

Debuffing: Utterdark blast+blast shape=win also a varity of elidritch essences provide status effects. I am pretty sure debuffing is not ToB strong suit so warlock wins here.
Debuffing? Who needs it? Emerald Razor/Sapphire Nightmare Blade if you have trouble hitting, and 17th level warblades and swordsages get an SoD. Crusaders take everything with a Martial Study: Iron Heart Focus, Stone Power, Steely Resolve, and healing, while still getting maneuvers that boost damage, plus they get good damage without the boost from maneuvers.

Conslusion Warlock is tier 3.

Im not familiar with the warlock, but someone mentioned they get very few invocations. Can they do all the above in one build? Because a ToB character can do at least one option for each of those.

[faceroll]

Ah, but aside from iteratives, a ToB class can use the same ones. In fact, a Warblade focusing on Tiger Claw would be more reliably use leap attack than a fighter because of the manuevers that run off it or more benefits from it. But, I admit, getting iteratives essentially double the damage output at 6, triple at 11, and quadruple at 16. But at that point, just ask the Wizard to disintegrate the dang thing.

In which case, stone dragon lockpick isn't of much use if you've decided to wield your own adamantine hammer and use tiger claw.

I just feel that when a maneuver's one out of combat use can be replicated by a commoner with a hammer and one functioning arm, it's not that special.

[Hiro Protagonest]

In which case, stone dragon lockpick isn't of much use if you've decided to wield your own adamantine hammer and use tiger claw.

I just feel that when a maneuver's one out of combat use can be replicated by a commoner with a hammer and one functioning arm, it's not that special.

The commoner couldn't afford that adamantine hammer unless he was high level. Plus, the commoner with a hammer can't replicate its in combat use.

[faceroll]

The commoner couldn't afford that adamantine hammer unless he was high level. Plus, the commoner with a hammer can't replicate its in combat use.

Dude, hiring a commoner costs like 1 copper a day. Do you really want to use like 1/13th of your useful class features on something you could replicate with a 3,000gp mundane item?

[MesiDoomstalker]

In which case, stone dragon lockpick isn't of much use if you've decided to wield your own adamantine hammer and use tiger claw.

I just feel that when a maneuver's one out of combat use can be replicated by a commoner with a hammer and one functioning arm, it's not that special.

Adamentine ignores hardness, but still takes half damage from most attacks including weapons (barring changing the type of damage it does). So a commoner with a hammer (even an adamanetine one) would take a really really really long time.

And minornitpick on myself, I meant to mention that the Warblade had a non-Adamentine weapon. That was my bad.

But on the other case, what if something needs to be destoryed and fast. Assume the item in question has less than 20 hardness and just enough HP that a "ignore hardness" maneuver would destroy it on average but an iterative wouldn't. Like destroying the last support holding a damn back. Warblade/Crusader/Swordsage win here (well maybe not Swordsage). One standard action, then a move action to book it out of there. A fighter would have to full attack and eat the broken damn. Though, depending on the DM, the ToB'er may not have time to move away from the breaking damn.


Dude, hiring a commoner costs like 1 copper a day. Do you really want to use like 1/13th of your useful class features on something that has multiple uses, one use you could replicate with a 3,000gp mundane item?

Fixed that for you

[Douglas]

Show me how ANY caster can affect an entire army through buffing.
Bard. Inspire Courage. Any loud instrument (I'd favor bagpipes if they had an official writeup). Amplify.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Bard. Inspire Courage. Any loud instrument (I'd favor bagpipes if they had an official writeup). Amplify.

How do you amplify?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Bard. Inspire Courage. Any loud instrument (I'd favor bagpipes if they had an official writeup). Amplify.

Point taken. I concede that point. Somewhat. A Bard can't benefit from it and has to use Bardic Music usages to activate it. And he has to maintain concentration which can be interrupted in combat. None of those are an issue for a Crusader or Warblade.


How do you amplify?

Its a 1st level Bard spell.

[kardar233]

Use an Alphorn. All friendlies within 1d10 miles get the effect.

[Douglas]

Point taken. I concede that point. Somewhat. A Bard can't benefit from it and has to use Bardic Music usages to activate it. And he has to maintain concentration which can be interrupted in combat. None of those are an issue for a Crusader or Warblade.
The parts I bolded are incorrect. Inspire Courage benefits all of the bard's allies, and in 3.5 you are your own ally. It is also not one of the bardic music uses that requires concentration.

Also, a single use can last indefinitely (barring a DM house rule), so Bardic Music uses per day isn't much of a limit.

[The Underlord]

@jade iron heart focus does not gauruntee success on saves(though the line of maneuvers that let you use concentration instead of saves do). Also aid another isnt really an advantge over the warlock because it can do that too and create undead minions to aid also.

[faceroll]

Adamentine ignores hardness, but still takes half damage from most attacks including weapons (barring changing the type of damage it does). So a commoner with a hammer (even an adamanetine one) would take a really really really long time.

It's actually only ranged weapons and energy attacks that get half damage. A hammer or (oddly enough) sword will do full damage (minus hardness, etc).


But on the other case, what if something needs to be destoryed and fast. Assume the item in question has less than 20 hardness and just enough HP that a "ignore hardness" maneuver would destroy it on average but an iterative wouldn't. Like destroying the last support holding a damn back. Warblade/Crusader/Swordsage win here (well maybe not Swordsage). One standard action, then a move action to book it out of there. A fighter would have to full attack and eat the broken damn. Though, depending on the DM, the ToB'er may not have time to move away from the breaking damn.

That is quite a pocket case, but yes, point to ToB. Once the fighter (or knight, barbarian, whatever) gets iteratives he's at an advantage for taking down very high HP structures (like walls). The ToB guys only get what, 5 rounds max of stone dragon maneuvers before they have to spend a round refreshing? I don't know how many stone dragon maneuvers ignore hardness. If it's just one, then ToB has a quarter of the damage output of a level 6 fighter vs. a wall.

I'm fairly certain that with enough strength/power attack/leap attack optimization, you won't even need an adamantine weapon. Being limited to one stone dragon maneuver every other or two of every three rounds dramatically decreases the damage you can do.

[Soranar]

The best warlock builds don't use that many warlock levels. You get your best ability at level 4, the second best at level 12.

Warlocks tends to benefit the most from double progression builds like the following :

Assuming a human with able learner

Factotum 1/Warlock 4/Assassin 3/Eldritch theurge 2/Arcane trickster 10

You get plenty of raw damage from your blast/sneak attack/iajutsu focus and versatility through assassin spells, invocations, UMD and lots of skillpoints

But, at this point, this is a warlock 4 build with 2 levels in a warlock only prestige class.

There's also a decent warlock/cleric/eldritch disciple but, again, your main power comes from the cleric powers, not the warlock's.

Still, TOB classes are never going to be as versatile as a class that has UMD, take 10 on UMD and create any scroll. Warlocks can optimize UMD to a ridiculous level (to the point where you can create level 9 scrolls before a wizard can cast them).

But, since you only get the latter ability at level 12, you aren't quite as powerful as TOB classes until you reach that combo.

Basically, before level 12, TOB classes are better. But at level 12, Warlock can mimic a batman wizard (mostly using UMD tricks and quickened SLAs) to make themselves tier 2. You just don't need that many invocations when you have scrolls.

[MesiDoomstalker]

The parts I bolded are incorrect. Inspire Courage benefits all of the bard's allies, and in 3.5 you are your own ally. It is also not one of the bardic music uses that requires concentration.

Also, a single use can last indefinitely (barring a DM house rule), so Bardic Music uses per day isn't much of a limit.

Ah my mistake. I admit I'm not very familiar with the particular of Bards. This will of course be very useful in the given situation.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Also, a single use can last indefinitely (barring a DM house rule), so Bardic Music uses per day isn't much of a limit.

If the concentration is interrupted, it lasts for 5 rounds more, than ends. It's RAW.

[faceroll]

If the concentration is interrupted, it lasts for 5 rounds more, than ends. It's RAW.

You may also want to end prematurely to cast a spell or somesuch.

[MesiDoomstalker]

It's actually only ranged weapons and energy attacks that get half damage. A hammer or (oddly enough) sword will do full damage (minus hardness, etc).



That is quite a pocket case, but yes, point to ToB. Once the fighter (or knight, barbarian, whatever) gets iteratives he's at an advantage for taking down very high HP structures (like walls). The ToB guys only get what, 5 rounds max of stone dragon maneuvers before they have to spend a round refreshing? I don't know how many stone dragon maneuvers ignore hardness. If it's just one, then ToB has a quarter of the damage output of a level 6 fighter vs. a wall.

I'm fairly certain that with enough strength/power attack/leap attack optimization, you won't even need an adamantine weapon. Being limited to one stone dragon maneuver every other or two of every three rounds dramatically decreases the damage you can do.

AFB, but I know of at least 3 though the extra die they add vary by level. And I don't remeber any provision in Hardness only applying to energy or ranged weapons only. Could you provide a link to back this up?

[The Glyphstone]

AFB, but I know of at least 3 though the extra die they add vary by level. And I don't remeber any provision in Hardness only applying to energy or ranged weapons only. Could you provide a link to back this up?

Hardness applies universally. He was talking about the 'divide damage by 2/4/x' part, which does apply only to energy attacks and ranged weapons.



Energy Attacks

Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit. Electricity and fire attacks deal half damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the hardness. Cold attacks deal one-quarter damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 4 before applying the hardness.
Ranged Weapon Damage

Objects take half damage from ranged weapons (unless the weapon is a siege engine or something similar). Divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the object’s hardness.


Since ranged and energy attacks are specifically called out as having additionally reduced damage, that means melee attacks are not subject to such.

[faceroll]

AFB, but I know of at least 3 though the extra die they add vary by level.

That would be quite the investment in breaking things, no?


And I don't remeber any provision in Hardness only applying to energy or ranged weapons only. Could you provide a link to back this up?

They're separate mechanics. First, energy and ranged weapon damage gets halved. Then hardness is applied.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#breakingAndEntering

However, adamantine weapons ignore any hardness of less than 20. That's why we're using an adamantine hammer vs. the stone walls.


[edit]
Bah, eldritch horrors.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Hardness applies universally. He was talking about the 'divide damage by 2/4/x' part, which does apply only to energy attacks and ranged weapons.



Since ranged and energy attacks are specifically called out as having additionally reduced damage, that means melee attacks are not subject to such.


That would be quite the investment in breaking things, no?



They're separate mechanics. First, energy and ranged weapon damage gets halved. Then hardness is applied.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#breakingAndEntering

However, adamantine weapons ignore any hardness of less than 20. That's why we're using an adamantine hammer vs. the stone walls.


[edit]
Bah, eldritch horrors.

Ah. I am, again, mistaken. I always thought the "divide by half/4/x" was universal excpet Acid, Sonic and siege weapons. I really should double check before I post shouldn't I?

[faceroll]

Ah. I am, again, mistaken. I always thought the "divide by half/4/x" was universal excpet Acid, Sonic and siege weapons. I really should double check before I post shouldn't I?

Ehhh, there are a lot of rules.

[Draz74]

If the concentration is interrupted, it lasts for 5 rounds more, than ends. It's RAW.

It's a common misconception that this applies to Inspire Courage. In fact, though,


Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action. Some bardic music abilities require concentration, which means the bard must take a standard action each round to maintain the ability. Even while using bardic music that doesn’t require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), spell trigger (such as wands), or command word.
Fascinate and Inspire Competence require concentration.

Inspire Courage and all the other Bardic Music abilities don't. Once you spend a standard action to start them, you can keep them going as long as you want as a free action, unless you cast a spell or use a scroll/wand/staff/command item. (And even then, you should have the Melodic Casting feat. On the other hand, most DMs will rule that your music effect ends if you take a rest.)


AFB, but I know of at least 3 though the extra die they add vary by level. And I don't remeber any provision in Hardness only applying to energy or ranged weapons only. Could you provide a link to back this up?


Energy Attacks

Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit. Electricity and fire attacks deal half damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the hardness. Cold attacks deal one-quarter damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 4 before applying the hardness.

Ranged Weapon Damage

Objects take half damage from ranged weapons (unless the weapon is a siege engine or something similar). Divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the object’s hardness.

Under the "exploration" section. (I never realized that ranged weapons had such a restriction, too!)

What the whole "Stone Dragon lockpick" discussion is missing, though, is that breaking stuff isn't just about bypassing hardness -- it's also about dealing a LOT of damage per hit. Yeah, a Barbarian with an adamantine greataxe is pretty good at chopping through stone walls; but he's still slower than a ToB character using a variety of Strikes on the wall. (He can still have Power Attack, and besides the three Stone Dragon manevuers that bypass hardness and do a LOT of extra damage at the levels you get them, there are many other strikes that also do lots of extra damage.) ToB is going to be faster at this task than anyone else (barring Disintegrate access or super-cheesy interpretations of Shatter).


That would be quite the investment in breaking things, no?

Yeah, but it's not quite as bad as it sounds, because higher-level ToB characters always know more Maneuvers than they're ever going to be able to Ready. So if I know all three "Hammer" maneuvers, I can just use the highest-damage one in combat, and never bother to Ready the other two except when I'm out-of-combat and I want to break through a dungeon wall quickly.

[MesiDoomstalker]

You know what? Who cares if a Warblade or Crusader can break through a wall faster than his Barbarian/Fighter friend if they can both just start wailing on wall(s) and get it done 2x faster! :smalltongue:

But seriously, this is really good discussion. I wish I didn't have to go to class :smallfrown:

[candycorn]

Warlocks can get invisiblity and can dispell any spell the dragon might use for touch armor. I am curious to see how a crusader can make an army killing machines. Also I forgot that warlocks can literally crafdt any scroll or wand with high enough UMD ( Dc 24 for 9th level arcane spells and 34 for 9th level divine spells which are easy to reach considering they can take ten on UMD checks)

Dragons get blindsense. Any round you spend dispelling is a round you're close enough for a pounce charge. Warlock damage is generally low for the level, and they are limited to 1 attack per round, in most cases.

Scrolls require UMD to use, however, and those 9th level spells will require:
DC 37 UMD to emulate CL to use.
DC 34 UMD to emulate ability score for spell.

That equates to +27ish, with the take 10. Possible, but not guaranteed out of the box, since dex is generally preferred for the class over charisma.

With a 14 Cha, +6 stat item, +2 MW tool, +3 Cha check item, and 17 ranks, you have a +27. So, it's not a heavy investment at 14-16... Which isn't all that powerful, considering that save DC's will be horrid (DC 23 for a level 9 spell is awful).

Yeah, no save spells at level 9 are solid, but they're also not all that hard to dispel.

No, warlock, without really splatbooking it up, fit into T4 nicely. For ToB, "1 thing well" is 100+ damage in combat at mid levels.
For warlock? it's 5d6.

[faceroll]

What the whole "Stone Dragon lockpick" discussion is missing, though, is that breaking stuff isn't just about bypassing hardness -- it's also about dealing a LOT of damage per hit. Yeah, a Barbarian with an adamantine greataxe is pretty good at chopping through stone walls; but he's still slower than a ToB character using a variety of Strikes on the wall. (He can still have Power Attack, and besides the three Stone Dragon manevuers that bypass hardness and do a LOT of extra damage at the levels you get them, there are many other strikes that also do lots of extra damage.) ToB is going to be faster at this task than anyone else (barring Disintegrate access or super-cheesy interpretations of Shatter).

The hammers do +2d6, +6d6, and +12d6 damage to an object and ignore hardness. Assume level 13 fighter and level 13 warblade. Both are using big two handed weapons and full power attack, and have 18 strength (lower strength favors the warblade).

Warblade gets 12d6(strike)+2d6(weapon)+1d6(stance)+6(strength)+2 6 as a standard action. That's an average of 85 damage. A stone wall, a half foot thick, has 90 HP.
A fighter does:
2d6+6+26 damage three times, for 117 points of damage.

Every additional point of strength, BAB, or magic weapon enhancement will increase the fighter's damage output at 3x the rate as the warblades for a single round attack. If you use a barbarian with whirling frenzy, the barbarian can hack through a foot of stone wall in a round. The warblade, on the other hand, will likely require 3 or 4 rounds, if he uses just strikes.

Where the warblade pulls ahead is when anything has 20 or more hardness, like magically treated iron, or when having a move action and being able to break something in the same round is important.


Yeah, but it's not quite as bad as it sounds, because higher-level ToB characters always know more Maneuvers than they're ever going to be able to Ready. So if I know all three "Hammer" maneuvers, I can just use the highest-damage one in combat, and never bother to Ready the other two except when I'm out-of-combat and I want to break through a dungeon wall quickly.

I dunno, I feel like a quarter of your maneuvers in stone dragon's a little "meh". Contrary to what I am saying here, I have had a character make exceptional use of stone dragon vs. homebrewed monsters with like hardness 100.

[MesiDoomstalker]

The hammers do +2d6, +6d6, and +12d6 damage to an object and ignore hardness. Assume level 13 fighter and level 13 warblade. Both are using big two handed weapons and full power attack, and have 18 strength (lower strength favors the warblade).

Warblade gets 12d6(strike)+2d6(weapon)+1d6(stance)+6(strength)+2 6 as a standard action. That's an average of 85 damage. A stone wall, a half foot thick, has 90 HP.
A fighter does:
2d6+6+26 damage three times, for 117 points of damage.

Every additional point of strength, BAB, or magic weapon enhancement will increase the fighter's damage output at 3x the rate as the warblades for a single round attack. If you use a barbarian with whirling frenzy, the barbarian can hack through a foot of stone wall in a round. The warblade, on the other hand, will likely require 3 or 4 rounds, if he uses just strikes.

Where the warblade pulls ahead is when anything has 20 or more hardness, like magically treated iron, or when having a move action and being able to break something in the same round is important.

I'm glad we can agree on this. In the given instance of "break something" both ToB and Core classes have their moments but they aren't out of luck when it the other would be better.

[nedz]

Dragons get blindsense. Any round you spend dispelling is a round you're close enough for a pounce charge. Warlock damage is generally low for the level, and they are limited to 1 attack per round, in most cases.
Eldritch Chain is a Lesser Invokation which you can take at 6th, this gives you +1 attack/5 class levels albeit as a chain for half damage. At 12th you can take Quicken SLA(Eldritch Blast) which gives you an extra attack, albeit only 3/day. There are a couple more Invokations which turn this into an AoE.


...
No, warlock, without really splatbooking it up, fit into T4 nicely. For ToB, "1 thing well" is 100+ damage in combat at mid levels.
For warlock? it's 5d6.
You can't play a warlock without using at least one splatbook, the same applies for ToB obviously.

[Hiro Protagonest]

The hammers do +2d6, +6d6, and +12d6 damage to an object and ignore hardness. Assume level 13 fighter and level 13 warblade. Both are using big two handed weapons and full power attack, and have 18 strength (lower strength favors the warblade).

Warblade gets 12d6(strike)+2d6(weapon)+1d6(stance)+6(strength)+2 6 as a standard action. That's an average of 85 damage. A stone wall, a half foot thick, has 90 HP.
A fighter does:
2d6+6+26 damage three times, for 117 points of damage.

Every additional point of strength, BAB, or magic weapon enhancement will increase the fighter's damage output at 3x the rate as the warblades for a single round attack. If you use a barbarian with whirling frenzy, the barbarian can hack through a foot of stone wall in a round. The warblade, on the other hand, will likely require 3 or 4 rounds, if he uses just strikes.

Where the warblade pulls ahead is when anything has 20 or more hardness, like magically treated iron, or when having a move action and being able to break something in the same round is important.

Hammer line also ignores DR, and the extra damage works against everything.

Also, hardness gets applied three times for the fighter if he makes three attacks. So hardness 10 reduces damage to 87 for fighter.

[faceroll]

Hammer line also ignores DR, and the extra damage works against everything.

Certainly an advantage if you have to face onerous DR that can't be easily overcome.


Also, hardness gets applied three times for the fighter if he makes three attacks. So hardness 10 reduces damage to 87 for fighter.

That's why adamantine. Unless it's more than 19 hardness, fighter doesn't care.

[marcielle]

Didn't read after a while, but it should be mentioned that things like greater invisibility practically at will,complete hardness bypass, swift action teleportation and of course, being an efective tank in a system that rally isn't tank friendly should weight heavily in terms of both combat effectiveness and outside scenarios effectiveness.
If you have an accurate map, some planning can have a swordsage outsneak a rough with just a couple of ranks in hide and Shadow Hand maneuvers spam.
Mountain Hammer is pretty much Knock at will every 12 seconds. Adamantine door? No problem. Magic door? Break the wall!
Preparing a towns defenses? SCREW PLANING SPAM WHITE RAVEN!

[Frosty]

You can't play a warlock without using at least one splatbook, the same applies for ToB obviously.Actually, PHB + ToB works JUST fine. Out of the box tier 3. I'm serious. No splat support needed.

[Demon of Death]

Actually, PHB + ToB works JUST fine. Out of the box tier 3. I'm serious. No splat support needed.

I believe he was referring to Warlock being in a splat-book, and ToB being a splat-book as well.

[dgnslyr]

The nice thing about the Mountain Hammer maneuvers, though, is that you can break out of jail even when stripped-searched naked and have nothing but a loincloth for modesty, if even that. Punch the lock, bite the chain, smash your way out. Even if it seems a bit specific of an instance you'll still be very glad when you can put it to use.

[Basket Burner]

Because the value of at will abilities was grossly exaggerated and presented under the belief that they truly were unlimited. The reality is that he hits 95% of the time, but does enough damage to make anything care that you shot it 0% of the time unless he stacks Hellfire Warlock with Eldritch Glaive (so he does his damage more than once a round) and some other stuff. Except that that happens at level 12, when any amount of damage won't save you if it is all you can do. And while not quite all they can do, aside from the non Greater Dispel Magic spamming and the slightly different version of Black Tentacles they really don't get a whole lot.

Tome of Battle classes were released later in life, when they realized that simply being at will wasn't quite as good anymore. And while some of the abilities are still on the weak side, ToB classes came out of this a lot better than the Warlock did.

[blackjack217]

I would like to point out that you actually get 12 invocations total if you know what you are doing.

[Psyren]

Versatile Spellcaster shenanigans into Warsnake.

A PrC can't be used to judge the tier of a class. You may as well say Monks are T1 because they can get into Ur-Priest easily.

[faceroll]

A PrC can't be used to judge the tier of a class. You may as well say Monks are T1 because they can get into Ur-Priest easily.

Wow dude, really? Read the thread. This has already been addressed about a half dozen times. See also using disintegrate at level 4.

[Psyren]

Yeah, I had missed the dogpile on you.

How does Arcane Disciple: Rune break Warmage?

[faceroll]

Yeah, I had missed the dogpile on you.

How does Arcane Disciple: Rune break Warmage?

Planar Binding, and with Versatile Spellcaster, you get it even earlier. Astral projection all day is pretty messed up.

Between using versatile spellcaster et al. and savvy domain choice, you can get access to stuff like PAO, Shapechange, or Gate at even lower levels. Even the summoning domain is pretty sweet.

The warmage also gets some pretty good high level spells, and, thanks to his casting mechanic, gets them 2 to 6 levels before he should.

[candycorn]

Eldritch Chain is a Lesser Invokation which you can take at 6th, this gives you +1 attack/5 class levels albeit as a chain for half damage. At 12th you can take Quicken SLA(Eldritch Blast) which gives you an extra attack, albeit only 3/day. There are a couple more Invokations which turn this into an AoE.Say you take that... And you fight a hill giant. Just 1. How many attacks do you get?

Yeah, if the enemy obliges you be being nearby, with multiple enemies, yay.


You can't play a warlock without using at least one splatbook, the same applies for ToB obviously.
I didn't say without splatbooks. I said "without really splatbooking". As in, 1-2 books. Really is meant to imply extremism.

[Dusk Eclipse]

As it has been said Martial Adepts can work perfectly well with just PHB+ToB and obviously they get better if you include other books.

Warlocks not so much, with just CArc and PHB they have some tricks; but not that good, for example if you restrict to those two books you are missing some of the Warlocks staples such as Quicken SLA (which is in the MM)

Other tricks require even more books:
HiPS needs Drow of the Underdark for the core and it is really helped with LoM
Increasing DPS to a respectable Damage? three more books, Dragon Magic and FCII and either MoI (Strongheart vest) or ToM (Naberius), really want to cheese it up, need another book WoL.

I think this just show how versatile and useful are the ToB classes compared to the Warlock (as much as I like them), they really belong in Tier 4 (high tier 4 IMO) while the ToB are firmly rooted in low to mid Tier 3

For another show of why swordsages are in tier 3 check this link (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12644.0), it shows how a swordsage (using actual builds) would deal with similar objectives as the one presented here (IIRC the main change is the dragon encounter is against a White Dragon, not a Black one). Just be warned that the useful evidence is somewhat buried in all the discussion.

[Psyren]

Planar Binding, and with Versatile Spellcaster, you get it even earlier.

Doesn't Rune only have lesser planar binding? Granted I'm sure there's some way to break the game with that too, but still. (I mean, succubi are useful and very warm I'm sure, but don't grant wishes.)

[Big Fau]

I would like to point out that you actually get 12 invocations total if you know what you are doing.

Here's the thing: Warlocks have to choose between combat- and noncombat-focused invocations. Martial Adepts don't have this problem, as every maneuver that is useful out of combat is also useful in combat.

@OP: Others have pointed this out, but I want to make it clear: The Swordsage and Warblade are capable of doing 100 damage every other round, more than triple the Warlock's EB damage. The Crusader can deal 2d6 Con every 3 rounds, which is a death-threat to anyone (two hits from that strike are damn-close to lethal, and even one hit can spell death thanks to the hit to Fort saves).

Note that the Swordsage can do his to everyone within 60ft, Ref for half. The only things safe from that are things immune to Fire, whereas the Warlock has to deal with both SR and Energy Resistance (if he uses the one invocation capable of bypassing SR, which is his only way to do so).



I've personally never had a player using a Warblade complain to me that he feels useless out of combat. I've had it happen every single encounter that involves SR with the Warlock (as WotC felt the need to put Vitriolic Blast in the Greater Invocations).

[Incanur]

When talking about how much damage a class can do, please mention what level you're talking about. Pouncing barbarians can deal 100+ damage at level 6 if not earlier. 100 damage at level 20 ain't so exciting.

[MesiDoomstalker]

When talking about how much damage a class can do, please mention what level you're talking about. Pouncing barbarians can deal 100+ damage at level 6 if not earlier. 100 damage at level 20 ain't so exciting.

The difference between a Barbarian pouncing for 100 damage at 6th is it is incredibly more costly, in equipment/feats/classes/etc. A single manuever does it for a single manuever known. Sure, you can deal more damage earlier but not as cheaply.

[Dusk Eclipse]

And Warblades have access to most of the damage multipliers a barbarian has, Valorous weapons, leap attack, shock trooper, battle jump are not class exclusive.

And they just have to wait till level 7 or 9 to get pounce (I can't recall if pouncing strike is a level 4 or 5 maneuver)

[Big Fau]

When talking about how much damage a class can do, please mention what level you're talking about. Pouncing barbarians can deal 100+ damage at level 6 if not earlier. 100 damage at level 20 ain't so exciting.

Such things usually are not taken into account when discussing tiers, as that requires optimization above and beyond what the Tier System accounts for.

It may be standard issue for a Barbarian, but that's only because we optimizers keep telling people to use it.

[Frosty]

Plus, we're comparing Warlock to Warblade, not Baba to Warblade.

[Incanur]

And they just have to wait till level 7 or 9 to get pounce (I can't recall if pouncing strike is a level 4 or 5 maneuver)

A single-level dip into barbarian provides high return at minimal cost. A pure warblade can't charge even close to as well as a whirling frenzing lion totem barbarian until late in the game.


Such things usually are not taken into account when discussing tiers, as that requires optimization above and beyond what the Tier System accounts for.

:smallconfused: JaronK of all people started the tier system. The example challenge (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) includes shivering touch, the mindrape/love's pain combo, genesis with flowing time, and the explosive runes nuke. That's about as optimized as you can get this side of Pun-Pun.

[Dictum Mortuum]

Human warmage 20. Pick up Arcane Disciple: Rune. Win the game.

If you want to win it faster, pick up versatile spellcaster, heighten spell, earth sense, earth spell, and easy metamagic: heighten spell. Your 2nd level spell slots are shooting disintegrates. Your 1st level slots are binding outsiders.


Again, it's not warmage that makes this a game breaker; it's the Rune domain. The same is true for the Heighten Spell feat combo. Nothing in those two examples actually uses Warmage - it just uses arcane spellcasting, which many classes offer. If Warmage had something unique to add to these tricks, I'd understand your reasoning, but now, well, I don't :P



[edit]
Are you the Dictum Mortuum?

Yes, I am him.

[jiriku]

I am curious. How is casting from the Rune domain so powerful? It seems unspecial to me.

[olentu]

I am curious. How is casting from the Rune domain so powerful? It seems unspecial to me.

Oh it has a few useful spells, you know lesser planar bind a nightmare for free astral projection or the like.

[jiriku]

Oh, so it's just divine casters getting excited about having LPB in-list. Well, I suppose it's better than a poke in the eye with a stick.

On topic: warlocks basically just aren't all that great at their primary shooty responsibilities, and are only mediocre at a handful of tasks chosen in advance. Initiators are extremely excellent at their roles, and are mediocre at a handful of tasks chosen in advance, with some added flexibility to change up their powers. That's a tier difference right there.

[MeeposFire]

A single-level dip into barbarian provides high return at minimal cost. A pure warblade can't charge even close to as well as a whirling frenzing lion totem barbarian until late in the game.



:smallconfused: JaronK of all people started the tier system. The example challenge (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) includes shivering touch, the mindrape/love's pain combo, genesis with flowing time, and the explosive runes nuke. That's about as optimized as you can get this side of Pun-Pun.

Yes but what you have to realize is that optimization is neutral in the tiers. What I mean is that it assumes that you are using equal optimization effort across all the classes. So you don't compare a warblade with all with all skill focused based feats to a barbarian that is a super charger. The super charger would be better but if you gave the warblade optimization equal to a barb supercharger then you would see that the warblade is better.

In your example that would be equal to a fighter player digging through a bunch of splats. Obviously the wizard is still better (likewise if you have a player making a "traditional" blaster wizard, as in as unoptimizied as can be, and a lockdown fighter the lockdown fighter could very well win due to the fact that it is far more optimizied). This shows why the system talks about using equivalent optimization when it does the ratings.

[Big Fau]

Eldritch Chain is a Lesser Invokation which you can take at 6th, this gives you +1 attack/5 class levels albeit as a chain for half damage. At 12th you can take Quicken SLA(Eldritch Blast) which gives you an extra attack, albeit only 3/day. There are a couple more Invokations which turn this into an AoE.

And, with the exception of Quicken, none of those are able to affect the same creature more than once per use. So instead of doing crap damage to one creature, you are doing crap damage to a handful of creatures. This goes double for the AoE invocations, as they get a save for half.



That's about as optimized as you can get this side of Pun-Pun.

Excluding the Genesis and Mind Rape examples, not really. The Explosive Runes is common once you realize it (save for dispelling it), and who doesn't use Shivering Touch on Dragons that aren't immune?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

No, warlock, without really splatbooking it up, fit into T4 nicely. For ToB, "1 thing well" is 100+ damage in combat at mid levels.
For warlock? it's 5d6.

No, 'one thing well' is Save or Lose that also inflicts 5d6 damage, OR an even more obnoxious save or lose effect, take your pick.

Hindering Blast, Nauseating Blast, and either Eldritch Chain or Eldritch Cone. This boils down to 'multiple targets, take damage AND either Will or Fort save or lose'.

Failing that, battlefield control with Chilling Tentacles and Summon Swarm.

Now here's the truly fun part about things like Hindering Blast. It's duration is one round. Normally, that would be pathetic... except that a Warlock can spam that every round. Now you've effectively got a Save or Lose + Damage per round that is immune to being dispelled because it just pulses back on you the following round.

So, you can use your standard action to dispel an effect which is just going to wear off and be renewed next round anyways... and basically lock yourself down... or you can try to do something relevant with your move OR standard action this round... but either way, you're up an unsanitary tributary without a method of propulsion.

[dextercorvia]

Human warmage 20. Pick up Arcane Disciple: Rune. Win the game.

If you want to win it faster, pick up versatile spellcaster, heighten spell, earth sense, earth spell, and easy metamagic: heighten spell. Your 2nd level spell slots are shooting disintegrates. Your 1st level slots are binding outsiders.

I think we've had this discussion before, but this isn't how these feats interact. You can use two 2nd level spells to cast a normally 3rd level spell which is effectively a 5th level spell this way (assuming easy works with heighten -- I'm AFB, so I'll stipulate). Nothing about this allows you to cast a spell from your 5th level list using 2nd level spell slots.

[Incanur]

Yes but what you have to realize is that optimization is neutral in the tiers.

Of course. I'm just asking folks to be clear on what they're talking about in order to facilitate comparisons.

[Quietus]

Now here's the truly fun part about things like Hindering Blast. It's duration is one round. Normally, that would be pathetic... except that a Warlock can spam that every round. Now you've effectively got a Save or Lose + Damage per round that is immune to being dispelled because it just pulses back on you the following round.

So, you can use your standard action to dispel an effect which is just going to wear off and be renewed next round anyways... and basically lock yourself down... or you can try to do something relevant with your move OR standard action this round... but either way, you're up an unsanitary tributary without a method of propulsion.

What, a will save vs. slow? So many ways to get around that, like say make a concentration check instead of a will save, then refresh your maneuver when you slap the warlock in the face. Alternatively own a pair of Boots of Speed and kill a charge to activate Haste, dispelling the Slow, then take any action you please. Does it eat resources, sure... but when you take survivability into account, the warlock is most likely going to drop long before you use even half of your 10 charges.

[faceroll]

I think we've had this discussion before, but this isn't how these feats interact. You can use two 2nd level spells to cast a normally 3rd level spell which is effectively a 5th level spell this way (assuming easy works with heighten -- I'm AFB, so I'll stipulate). Nothing about this allows you to cast a spell from your 5th level list using 2nd level spell slots.

You're absolutely correct.
Warmages are trash.
:smallfrown:


What, a will save vs. slow? So many ways to get around that, like say make a concentration check instead of a will save, then refresh your maneuver when you slap the warlock in the face. Alternatively own a pair of Boots of Speed and kill a charge to activate Haste, dispelling the Slow, then take any action you please. Does it eat resources, sure... but when you take survivability into account, the warlock is most likely going to drop long before you use even half of your 10 charges.

Is the best way to compare classes in D&D by having them fight each other arena style? Most of my games involve dungeon crawling with allies....

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Ahem...

I think a lot of people misunderstand Warlock invocation choices. Perhaps this might clarify a few things:

First off, there are four tiers of invocations: Least, Lesser, Greater, and Dark. They're largely independent of each other, because you're always going to want to pick up one of the highest level available to you. That means you get up to 3 of each given tier.

Second, not all options are available at all tiers. Most of your out-of-combat utility is found in Least, with some in Lesser. Contrast that with the Essence Invocations that are actually worth taking tend to be Greater and Dark. So those individuals complaining that you have to choose between out-of-combat utility and in-combat effectiveness are probably misled by a cursory glance at the class's limited selection of invocations known without realizing how useful each one can be.

So, let's go over the invocations, shall we?

Least:

Essence: Frightful and Sickening Blast are the only two essences here. they both suck. Don't bother with either one.

Shape: Glaive comes out the clear winner here, with Spear in second place for longer-ranged action.

Okay, so basically, the essence invocations aren't worth it, and the shapes are situational at best. If you arn't planning on being a Melee Glaivelock, then you aren't picking up Glaive, and I've rarely seen a Warlock pick up Spear unless they are really worried about opponents closing with them and combo it with Hindering Blast. Which means, more often than not, everything goes into utility. So let's see what we have here:

Baleful Utterance - shatter at-will. It can be a lot of fun as a tool and a toy, but ultimately forgettable.

Beguiling Influence - Most often taken by people using Warlock as a dip, it nonetheless makes the Warlock an effective 'party face'.

Breath of the Night - It's as useless as the spell it mimics.

Dark One's Own Luck - if you're worried about your saves, this is useful if you have focused on Charisma.

Darnkess - Unfortunately, it's not as good as you think it is. It's only Concealment, it doesn't block LoS.

Devil's Sight - See above for why this isn't very useful.

Earthen Grasp - It's as useless as the spell it mimics.

Entropic Warding - Pass Without Trace + Entropic Shield + no scent = solid defensive buff.

Leaps and Bounds - Most often taken by those using Warlock as a dip to get a large bonus to the relevant skills, but it does enhance the Warlock's mobility somewhat.

Miasmic Cloud - No. Concealment is a buff, not a debuff. Combining a buff with a debuff is silly.

See The Unseen - A star utility invocation for scouting. At low-levels, you'll be using Darkvision more than the See Invis, however the fact that it is also always-on See invis makes this a valuable tool throughout your career.

Spider Climb - A very handy utility invocation which greatly increases the mobility of the warlock. Also often taken as a dip for other classes, because it really is that handy. This makes the warlock into a supurb dungeon-scout, particularly when combined with See The Unseen, because it lets him get to places that are otherwise inaccessible at low levels.

Summon Swarm - At low-levels, probably one of the most powerful battlefield control invocations. Automatic damage + Fort Save or be Nauseated and another Fort save or Str damage is very powerful at low levels. However, this begins to wane quickly as the save is rather sub-par.

So Least invocations are useful primarily for Utility, with only a couple which provide benefit in combat.

Lesser -

Essence - Beshadowed is your first Save or Lose effect, Blindness can be very crippling. The other two are only useful as a prerequisite for HFW.

Shape - Chain. It's not as strong as Chain Spell, but it's still fairly solid, and lets you hit multiple targets without worrying about Friendly Fire

So again, only one Essence worth bothering with. Again, most of your invocations will be utility and battlefield control.

Charm - Other than being a prerequisite for Mindbender to get Mindsight, it's still a VERY powerful out-of-combat utility spell. You can really do a number with this if you know how to work it properly.

Curse of Despair - it's a touch attack, and a debuff. Meh.

The Dead Walk - Disposable minions are disposable. Temporary too, unless you spend the onyx. Still, there are times when throwing bodies at a problem is a viable solution.

Fell Flight - Fantastic mobility-enhancing utility invocation! This plus Entropic Warding makes you very difficult to affect in combat. It also lets you move around in all three dimensions, which means getting to places otherwise inaccessible.

Flee The Scene - Dimension Door + leaving behind an image so people think you're still there? Sign me up! Fantastic defensive invocation, fantastic mobility-enhancing invocation, and fantastic utility for getting from Point A to Point B without having to cross the likely trapped and hazardous terrain between them!

Hungry Darkness - if the save DC on the Fort saves were better, it might have been worth it. Since it isn't? Pass.

Stony Grasp - As worthless as the spell.

Voidsense - Blindsense isn't really all that nifty since you already had See Invis as a least invocation.

Voracious Dispelling - Fantastic utility and debuff.

Walk Unseen - It's hard to hit what you can't see. Still, with Fell Flight + Entropic Warding, you shouldn't need this, but it can be useful.

Wall of Gloom - It pretends to be battlefield control.

So again, most of the invocations found here are utility and defensive, and nearly all of the valuable ones are useful outside of combat.

Greater - This is where you really wish you had an extra invocation or two handy

Essences: You get some great Save or Lose choices here. Hindering is Will or be Slowed, Bewitching is Will save or be Confused, and Nauseating is Fort or be Nauseated. All three are Save or Lose effects, which you can tack onto your regularly scheduled damage. Vitriolic Blast is also a star for negating SR as a factor.

Shapes: Cone. It's area-effect, so you get to hit a whole bunch of people at once. Great for combining with some of the Save or Lose essences.

Now we get to your meat-and-potatoes combat invocations, and this is where Warlock really starts paying off in combat. He can do damage AND apply a Save or Lose. And he can do it every round. So even if the save was made, they still take some damage. In addition, it's got some great battlefield control as well.

Chilling Tentacles - It's a grapple check, which also applies cold damage in addition to locking down targets. Fun times.

Devour Magic - It's a touch attack, but it's unlimited-use Greater Dispel Magic, targeted version.

Enervating Shadow - would've been more useful if it didn't come with the Str penalty, since it would be great to combo with Devil's Sight.

Tenacious Plague - Since the plague's attacks now bypass DR/magic, and the save DC is increased by your Cha mod, this is still a viable battlefield control spell. It also summons multiple swarms, so this is a LOT of area you are affecting.

Wall of Perilous Flame - The only use this spell has is to disintegrate bodies to make it harder to resurrect them.

Warlock's Call - Party communication utility.

Dark - This has some useful buffs and some useful debuffs

Essence: There's only one here, but it's a good one. Negative levels are fun to hand out, although you're only doing it in penny-packets.

Shape: Getting close to enemies is not suggested. Thus this shape is about as useful as a screen door on a submarine.

Now then, here's the other invocations you get access to:

Dark Discorporation - trap. Not only does it suck, it traps you in the form until it wears off normally, since dismissing it is a standard action you no longer get.

Dark Foresight - Wizards jump through loopholes to get the ability to have Foresight persisted. You get it out of the box a level before they do.

Path of Shadow - You really shouldn't be needing this, but if you are the only 'arcane' class in the party, it may become necessary.

Retributive Invisibility - While it took long enough to come online, Greater invisibility effectively always-on is a lot of fun.

Word of Changing - Fort save or Lose. And by lose I mean 'be a pink fluffy bunny'. Granted, others have been doing this for several levels now, but this is a Fort Save or Lose effect you can spam over and over.

So, in conclusion:

At lower levels is where most of your utility is found, and at higher level is where most of your Save or Lose effects are found.

This class's power is not in their blasting, it is in their spamming of Save or Lose effects every round in combat and overall utility. Whomever thought this class has no utility needs to go over the invocation list again.

[Basket Burner]

Your post, in summary: At level 11, Warlocks can do what other classes could do 6 levels ago, except to only one target at a time and with a likely lower DC. And that is when they are at their best.

Warmages spam single target save or loses better than them. That's bad.

[Big Fau]

This class's power is not in their blasting, it is in their spamming of Save or Lose effects every round in combat and overall utility. Whomever thought this class has no utility needs to go over the invocation list again.

A vast majority of those SoLs are common immunities, and as stated above, come a tad late to the party.

At will abilities are nice, but they need to scale efficiently in order to keep up with the encounter design. Warlocks do not have efficiently scaling invocations (Chilling Tentacles, for example, can't keep up and the damage it deals is easily resisted, and Word of Changing couldn't have possibly targeted a worse save).

The save DCs are also often Fort saves, which brings up a problem: MM enemies have high Fort saves at the mid-to-high levels. You are wasting actions if you are trying to make them roll against an effect that the have a 70% chance of passing (or higher).

What's more, those SoLs are all targeted. That's the worst kind of SoL at the higher levels.

So yes, Warlocks have options. They have 12 of them. That's it. And they can't use multiple options each round the way a Martial Adept can. And their options largely suck at the level they get them (whereas I have yet to see 2d6 Con damage not be useful against a Very Old Red Dragon).

[maximus25]

You guys realize you were talking about how warblades can use stone dragon to destroy walls at like high levels? 1st level thing for warlock, baleful utterance.

[Hiro Protagonest]

You guys realize you were talking about how warblades can use stone dragon to destroy walls at like high levels? 1st level thing for warlock, baleful utterance.

At high levels, the walls are magic. And a 3rd level ToB character can break through walls, plus they still have more tricks, like Sudden Leap for a double jump.

[Dictum Mortuum]

You guys realize you were talking about how warblades can use stone dragon to destroy walls at like high levels? 1st level thing for warlock, baleful utterance.

Assuming it weighs 10 pounds.

[MesiDoomstalker]

You guys realize you were talking about how warblades can use stone dragon to destroy walls at like high levels? 1st level thing for warlock, baleful utterance.

Ah, but heres the glory. Warlocks can do it earlier and more efficiently. Warblades can do it at the same level less efficiently. BUT! Stone Dragon can do other stuff. Lots of other stuff. Like ignore DR and add extra damage die.

Baleful Uttance: 2 uses. Destroy stuff, damage Crystalline creatures.

Stone Dragon Manuevers: all the above plus, ignore DR, extra Damage and don't allow a save against attended items. Ya, see who can sunder the enemies sword more efficiently.

EDIT: Swordsaged again! How appropriate.

[Big Fau]

You guys realize you were talking about how warblades can use stone dragon to destroy walls at like high levels? 1st level thing for warlock, baleful utterance.

Warblades have WRT and IHS at the high levels. Warlocks can't shut off an AMF or take extra turns.

A Warlock's dispel trick is cute, but attempting to use it on a Dragon (the typical spellcasters at the higher levels) will get the Warlock killed. The Warblade can at least get up in it's face and smack it for 2d6 Con.

At the lower levels, a Warblade is a better trapfinder than a Warlock by virtue of the Concentration Save Counters, Wall of Blades, and a high natural HP. THe Warlock has Dark One's Own Luck, and that's it. And that does little good against traps that target AC (which a good number of them do).


One thing about the Warlock is Tier Range. They got more support than the Bo9S, and can often escape Tier 4 by being optimized. Martial Adepts do not escape Tier 3, as their only method of doing so (while still progressing their abilities) requires spellcasting (RKV and JPM).

[maximus25]

Even if warlock is only tier 4, I'll still play it. For the same reason I'll play a trunamer. It's all about flavor.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Even if warlock is only tier 4, I'll still play it. For the same reason I'll play a trunamer. It's all about flavor.

No one is saying you shouldn't Play Warlock or Truenamer. I love playing fighters. All we are doing is showing why Warlock is tier 4.

[maximus25]

No one is saying you shouldn't Play Warlock or Truenamer. I love playing fighters. All we are doing is showing why Warlock is tier 4.

Alright. It's fine, I can play any class with my current group and outshine them easily. I'm the only optimizer.

[faceroll]

A Warlock's dispel trick is cute, but attempting to use it on a Dragon (the typical spellcasters at the higher levels) will get the Warlock killed. The Warblade can at least get up in it's face and smack it for 2d6 Con.

How will it get the warlock killed? Dragons have clumsy flight maneuverability- they cannot pounce directly up. A warlock directly above a dragon, outside of its reach, cannot be pounced on.

A warblade adjacent to a dragon is going to die in one or two rounds, maybe three if you really optimized constitution. Wraithstrike + power attack + claw claw wing wing bite tail slap is a minimum of like 200 damage. Add in rapid strike and improved rapid strike, and that warblade is getting ended.

[Basket Burner]

Even if warlock is only tier 4, I'll still play it. For the same reason I'll play a trunamer. It's all about flavor.

You must hate icecream.

[faceroll]

You must hate icecream.

Nah, he can't taste it.

[Big Fau]

How will it get the warlock killed? Dragons have clumsy flight maneuverability- they cannot pounce directly up. A warlock directly above a dragon, outside of its reach, cannot be pounced on.

A warblade adjacent to a dragon is going to die in one or two rounds, maybe three if you really optimized constitution. Wraithstrike + power attack + claw claw wing wing bite tail slap is a minimum of like 200 damage. Add in rapid strike and improved rapid strike, and that warblade is getting ended.

They have actual spellcasting and, again, the Warlock's best Dispel effect is touch range (meaning he's all ready in full attack range).

The Warblade not only has Tumble as a class skill, but several very efficient means of getting Swift action movement (Quicksilver Motion and Sudden Leap, amongst others). Or he can use War Leader's Charge or another White Raven maneuver, initiate WRT on himself, and then smack the dragon with Tombstone Mountain Strike.



Although both situations would be impossible for either class if the Dragon were optimized to it's Tier 2 potential.

[Frosty]

Hmm..how WOULD a Warlock best fight a dragon who chooses its spells optimally? I mean, what's to stop a dragon from pwning a Warlock the same way a dragon pwned Varsuuvius? AMF->Grapple? A Warlock can't outrun a dragon. Even with clumsy maneuverability, with their 200 fly speed and maybe a feat if necessary, the dragon can easily fly (circuitously) to the Warlock.

Meanhile, the Warblade's abilities are (Ex).

[MesiDoomstalker]

Hmm..how WOULD a Warlock best fight a dragon who chooses its spells optimally? I mean, what's to stop a dragon from pwning a Warlock the same way a dragon pwned Varsuuvius? AMF->Grapple? A Warlock can't outrun a dragon. Even with clumsy maneuverability, with their 200 fly speed and maybe a feat if necessary, the dragon can easily fly (circuitously) to the Warlock.

Meanhile, the Warblade's abilities are (Ex).

The dragon can fly out of melee range, use Hover feat, and pepper with spells and breath weapon. The Warblade probably isn't spec'ed or equiped for efficient or powerful ranged combat and may not be able to deal much damage. Thats why you ask the Wizard to use any number of spells to ground the dragon. A Wizard can do anything.

[Frosty]

True. The whole hovering thing is pretty nasty. The wizard should probably cast Fly on the frontliners.

[candycorn]

Couple disagreements:


Voidsense - Blindsense isn't really all that nifty since you already had See Invis as a least invocation.Blindsense also gets nonmagical invisibility - see: Hiding.


Essences: .

Shapes: Cone. It's area-effect, so you get to hit a whole bunch of people at once. Great for combining with some of the Save or Lose essences. Also great for getting your party familiar with the term: Friendly fire.


Chilling Tentacles - It's a grapple check, which also applies cold damage in addition to locking down targets. Fun times.So, low damage, commonly resisted grapple checks, at levels where enemies are becoming huge size as a rule, not the exception, and where Freedom of movement has been available for several levels?

Trap.


Devour Magic - It's a touch attack, but it's unlimited-use Greater Dispel Magic, targeted version.Bolded part is all you need to say. Unless you're a glaive lock, you have to eat an AoO just to have a shot at using it.

Tenacious Plague - Since the plague's attacks now bypass DR/magic, and the save DC is increased by your Cha mod, this is still a viable battlefield control spell. It also summons multiple swarms, so this is a LOT of area you are affecting.Not buying, sorry. This is AoE bait. And that AoE will likely also affect your entire party. 21 HP swarms, with low saves, and vulnerability to AoE? No thanks.


Word of Changing - Fort save or Lose. And by lose I mean 'be a pink fluffy bunny'. Granted, others have been doing this for several levels now, but this is a Fort Save or Lose effect you can spam over and over. Except for half the enemies you'll be facing are immune to this by now.


So, in conclusion:Those evaluations you had on the usefulness of a warlock overestimated their capabilities.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Couple disagreements:
Blindsense also gets nonmagical invisibility - see: Hiding.
Also great for getting your party familiar with the term: Friendly fire. If you can't figure out how to use it without hitting allies, you don't need to be playing ANY kind of caster. Period.


So, low damage, commonly resisted grapple checks, at levels where enemies are becoming huge size as a rule, not the exception, and where Freedom of movement has been available for several levels? Except... not. Low damage, sure, but guaranteed damage. Grapple at a level where the biggest danger are critters with class levels, which tend to have very poor grapple checks compared to what you can get out of Chilling Tentacles.


Bolded part is all you need to say. Unless you're a glaive lock, you have to eat an AoO just to have a shot at using it.Agreed, which is why I started off with the caveat.

Not buying, sorry. This is AoE bait. And that AoE will likely also affect your entire party. 21 HP swarms, with low saves, and vulnerability to AoE? No thanks. Vulnerable to AoE, but how many things use AoE? It's invulnerable to weapon damage. Period. So it's harder to get rid of than you think. And please... use AoE to get rid of something I can re-summon the next round. Waste your time AoEing down an infinite resource with your limited resources and bending yourself over and letting the action economy have it's way with you while my party makes you regret that decision.

Except for half the enemies you'll be facing are immune to this by now.Immune to polymorph? Not likely.


Those evaluations you had on the usefulness of a warlock overestimated their capabilities.No, I just use them effectively, rather than failing to comprehend what they can do.

As far as immunities... I don't know of a single opponent who is immune to Slow. Name one, I dare you. Hindering Blast + either Chain (so ranged touch attack, in other words, not going to miss) or Cone. Multiple opponents slowed + minor damage. Every. Round.

The only mobs consistently immune to Nauseated is Undead and Constructs. For Constructs, just use Vitriolic Blast or, if they are crystalline, shatter. For undead, let the cleric pull out his other use for Turn Undead.

For that matter, I don't know of a single opponent who is immune to Blind either. Give the whole party a 50% miss chance, enable sneak attacks for the rogue... not too shabby for a Lesser invocation.

[Eldariel]

Warblade with bow proficiencies CAN one-shot a Dragon come late levels (provided the Dragon isn't persisting immunities on itself; Force bow penetrates a goodly bunch but if he's just immune to damage, Warblade is in serious trouble) but has problems early on (and before level 9, a Warblade doesn't get helpful abilities for archery). Even if he can't contribute much himself tho, he can WRT an ally at least.

[nedz]

The Tier system is about flexibilty; that is: the ability to fulfil different roles. Why are so many people considering Warlock only through the beatstick role ?
Clearly ToB characters can do this role better.

Warlocks excel at scouting/infiltration, they are also reasonable arcanists. This should make them T3: with just short of 2 threats (roughly).

Comparing one class against a whole splatbook of classes is hard to resolve, especially when people keep cherry-picking examples.


I would like to point out that you actually get 12 invocations total if you know what you are doing.

12 is the default for a single class warlock, with Feats you can add another 5.

[Curious]

The Tier system is about flexibilty; that is: the ability to fulfil different roles. Why are so many people considering Warlock only through the beatstick role ?
Clearly ToB characters can do this role better.

Warlocks excel at scouting/infiltration, they are also reasonable arcanists. This should make them T3: with just short of 2 threats (roughly).

Comparing one class against a whole splatbook of classes is hard to resolve, especially when people keep cherry-picking examples.



12 is the default for a single class warlock, with Feats you can add another 5.

The thing is, Warlocks are either okay at combat and mediocre at out of combat utility, or terrible at combat and good at out of combat utility. This problem exists because they are forced to split their main class features (invocations) between combat and non-combat. So, they are either okay but not great at a bunch of things, or good at one thing and bad at other things. Classic tier 4.

[NNescio]

Warlocks excel at scouting/infiltration, they are also reasonable arcanists. This should make them T3: with just short of 2 threats (roughly).

Rogues also excel at scouting/infiltration, and can be makeshift arcanists with UMD.

Rangers also excel at scouting/infiltration, and are also partial casters themselves.

Both these classes can also deal more damage than the Warlock.

Spellthieves can also choose to excel at scouting/infiltration, and they are also partial casters.

All of these classes are Tier 4.

[Dictum Mortuum]

Rogues also excel at scouting/infiltration, and can be makeshift arcanists with UMD.

Rangers also excel at scouting/infiltration, and are also partial casters themselves.

Both these classes can also deal more damage than the Warlock.

Spellthieves can also choose to excel at scouting/infiltration, and they are also partial casters.

All of these classes are Tier 4.

Those classes are not that good at scouting and infiltration.

[Person_Man]

The major problem, if I am not mistaken, is that the warlock has a horrifically low number of invocations.

I think that's the most basic and important point.

Tier 4 Warlocks get:

Eldritch Blast
12 Invocations
Take 10 on UMD
UMD and social Skills (with 2 Skill Points per level)
Minor Energy Resistance and DR
Ability to create magic items (sorta)


Tier 3 Dragonfire Adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2) gets:

Breath Weapon
6 Breath Effects
8 Invocations
UMD and social Skills (with 4 Skill Points per level)
Minor bonuses/Feats/Immunities/DR


Notice the difference? The Warlock Eldritch Blast targets 1 enemy per round, the Dragonfire Breath Weapon deals the same damage but targets multiple enemies per round. The Warlock gets 12 Invocations (which include Eldritch Blast modifiers), and the Dragonfire Adept basically gets 14. Skills are similar, but Dragonfire Adept gets 2 more Skill Points per level. The extra minor bonuses are similar, but the Dragonfire Adept notably does not have any dead levels.

Like most Tier 4-6 classes, the Warlock basically just needs more stuff.

[NNescio]

Those classes are not that good at scouting and infiltration.

Compared to the Warlock (as opposed to say, a Beguiler or a Factotum), Rogues and Rangers aren't that shabby, and being skill-dependent, they can foil magical means of detection and to a lesser degree, defence. Throw in Darkstalker, and well...

Arcane Locks notwithstanding, of course.

[Draz74]

For that matter, I don't know of a single opponent who is immune to Blind either.

You don't know of a single monster with Blindsight? :smallconfused:

[MesiDoomstalker]

You don't know of a single monster with Blindsight? :smallconfused:

Or doesn't have eyes? :smallconfused:

[Basket Burner]

Nah, he can't taste it.

That was the idea.


Except... not. Low damage, sure, but guaranteed damage. Grapple at a level where the biggest danger are critters with class levels, which tend to have very poor grapple checks compared to what you can get out of Chilling Tentacles.

At level 11+? If you fight anything with class levels, those class levels are "Cleric", "Druid", "Wizard", and so forth. They FoM/Teleport/otherwise entirely ignore it. If they have class levels that do not meet that criteria, they are not the biggest threat. They are the smallest. They also still have decent enough grapple modifiers to not care very much.


As far as immunities... I don't know of a single opponent who is immune to Slow. Name one, I dare you. Hindering Blast + either Chain (so ranged touch attack, in other words, not going to miss) or Cone. Multiple opponents slowed + minor damage. Every. Round.

Wizard did it 6 levels ago, better DC, hits more targets. So did the Beguiler, if you want to try and play the Tier 1 card. So did many others. They're late.


The only mobs consistently immune to Nauseated is Undead and Constructs. For Constructs, just use Vitriolic Blast or, if they are crystalline, shatter. For undead, let the cleric pull out his other use for Turn Undead.

I'm not sure if Beguilers get this one, otherwise see above, with the caveat that Will save effects are better than Fort save effects.


For that matter, I don't know of a single opponent who is immune to Blind either. Give the whole party a 50% miss chance, enable sneak attacks for the rogue... not too shabby for a Lesser invocation.

Blinding in an AoE is an excellent ability... at level 3. You are what? 6, and with a lower DC?

[Big Fau]

Blinding in an AoE is an excellent ability... at level 3. You are what? 6, and with a lower DC?

And that's his only Lesser Invocation for a few levels at that, meaning it's worthless against enemies with Blindsight Tremmorsense, ora few other abilities that bypass it. Never mind the save problems.

[AmberVael]

Let me back up to my previous statement about the big problem being 12 invocations only, and reference it with this argument.

Yes, Warlock definitely does have some handy combos and capabilities out there. A cone of hindering will be quite difficult to deal with... but think of the cost on that one.

You need to be level 13 to do that, for one, and for another... that's two invocations used right there. You only get three per grade of invocation, so that leaves you with only one greater invocation left. What is your last one going to be? Vitriolic Blast, leaving you entirely focused on combat, but picking up something entirely essential for your blast to be reliable? Noxious Blast, giving you one more save based attack, but meaning you miss out on being able to bypass SR, or using Chilling Tentacles, and Devour Magic? Even if you skip Cone, you're still very skimp on options- if you pick up Chain instead of cone (as honestly it might be better to pick one or the other) you can be shut down with a fourth level spell- Ray Deflection- and you hurt yourself again. Going to pick up flight and beshadowed blast? Say goodbye to dispelling, charming, and invisibility.

If warlock could choose more invocations, they could go up a tier. But they don't, and so they suffer- which is unfortunate, really. I think it's best if people who want to play tier 3 or higher implement a warlock fix, generally just one that adds invocations known.

[Frosty]

So what if Warlocks get 1 Invocation per level and 4 + Int skill points? Is that enough to bump it to the same power level as say...the Beguiler?

[MesiDoomstalker]

So what if Warlocks get 1 Invocation per level and 4 + Int skill points? Is that enough to bump it to the same power level as say...the Beguiler?

A good start. Make it so saves scale better and you get things at the same times other casters get them, and you have a solid tier 3.

[Draz74]

So what if Warlocks get 1 Invocation per level and 4 + Int skill points? Is that enough to bump it to the same power level as say...the Beguiler?

This would make the Warlock a solid Tier 3, but still lower than the Beguiler. The Beguiler (having Level 9 spells, and also being better than skills than the Rogue) is pretty much the tip-top of Tier 3.

[Psyren]

Beguiler and Wilder are examples of high T3. A souped-up Warlock can't come close - it's very hard for them to match 9ths.

[candycorn]

If you can't figure out how to use it without hitting allies, you don't need to be playing ANY kind of caster. Period.Ah, the "if you can't find a way to break the rules with this, you shouldn't play it" defense. Classy.


Except... not. Low damage, sure, but guaranteed damage. Grapple at a level where the biggest danger are critters with class levels, which tend to have very poor grapple checks compared to what you can get out of Chilling Tentacles.Guaranteed low damage, is what I'm seeing. And if it has class levels, chances are it has Freedom of Movement and Resist Energy.


Agreed, which is why I started off with the caveat.The point is, without serious optimization, warlocks have no ability in melee. If this were: Melee touch attack: Kill enemy (no save)? Maybe. But all it does is sap a couple buffs... Maybe. And you have to chances are, get hit to do it. Not a good trade.

Vulnerable to AoE, but how many things use AoE? It's invulnerable to weapon damage. Period. So it's harder to get rid of than you think. And please... use AoE to get rid of something I can re-summon the next round. Waste your time AoEing down an infinite resource with your limited resources and bending yourself over and letting the action economy have it's way with you while my party makes you regret that decision.Most things with AoE have it as a less limited resource than you think. Add on the fact that the AoE will likely also hit half the party, including the warlock... And perhaps you'll realize that it's not as good as you think it is. Dragons, class levels, casters, most things with the <outsider> tag, etc etc etc.


No, I just use them effectively, rather than failing to comprehend what they can do.And blissfuly ignore what they cannot.


As far as immunities... I don't know of a single opponent who is immune to Slow. Name one, I dare you. Hindering Blast + either Chain (so ranged touch attack, in other words, not going to miss) or Cone. Multiple opponents slowed + minor damage. Every. Round.Anything with Haste?

See, the issue isn't that is can't do... well, about 75% of what you say. The issue is that there are several classes that do it better. And throwing 15,000 in a day vs throwing 50? Not a major issue when it's needed 12 times.


The only mobs consistently immune to Nauseated is Undead and Constructs. For Constructs, just use Vitriolic Blast or, if they are crystalline, shatter. For undead, let the cleric pull out his other use for Turn Undead.Use Vitriolic Blast, and be equally ineffective against constructs as you are against everything else. Awesome. Everyone else 1 shots the construct, and you... do 7d6 damage. Woo.

[Tvtyrant]

The easy fix for Warlocks that I know of is to take Shadowcaster progression and graft it together with EB to make a tier 3 character.

[Frosty]

This would make the Warlock a solid Tier 3, but still lower than the Beguiler. The Beguiler (having Level 9 spells, and also being better than skills than the Rogue) is pretty much the tip-top of Tier 3.
But it's not JUST having level 9 spells. I mean, if you gave the warmage 6+int skills and Int-based casting, it wouldn't make the Warmage tier 3 right?

[Big Fau]

But it's not JUST having level 9 spells. I mean, if you gave the warmage 6+int skills and Int-based casting, it wouldn't make the Warmage tier 3 right?

Right. To truly fix up the Warlock to Tier 3, you need to give it better invocation options and probably segregate the class' ability to learn Blast Shape, Eldritch Essence, and normal invocations so they don't have to choose between combat and noncombat-related invocations as much.

Class features related to it's Invocations would also be nice.

[Psyren]

But it's not JUST having level 9 spells. I mean, if you gave the warmage 6+int skills and Int-based casting, it wouldn't make the Warmage tier 3 right?

Spells is the operative word. Warmages have one 9th-level spell (hurt things) which is just about the most banal thing you can do with those slots.

[Grendus]

Spells is the operative word. Warmages have one 9th-level spell (hurt things) which is just about the most banal thing you can do with those slots.

Actually, Warmage 9ths are mostly "kill things". They have one "hurt things" 9th, Meteor Swarm (24d6 damage, as a 9th... come on man, I can do that with a 3rd, and I'm an underachiever). Their other spells aren't particularly good 9ths, but they aren't "hurt things".

[Psyren]

Actually, Warmage 9ths are mostly "kill things". They have one "hurt things" 9th, Meteor Swarm (24d6 damage, as a 9th... come on man, I can do that with a 3rd, and I'm an underachiever). Their other spells aren't particularly good 9ths, but they aren't "hurt things".

You say potayto, I say saving throw.

Either way, they aren't stopping time, projecting from their demiplane, calling in solars...

[candycorn]

Right. To truly fix up the Warlock to Tier 3, you need to give it better invocation options and probably segregate the class' ability to learn Blast Shape, Eldritch Essence, and normal invocations so they don't have to choose between combat and noncombat-related invocations as much.

Class features related to it's Invocations would also be nice.

I'd say the ability to exchange invocations would help. Give them a floating invocation at every level that can be changed with 10 minutes prep time. Add on class features that function much like metabreath feats (gives any invocation used with the EB a cooldown, add an effect to it, such as maximize or heighten or clinging).

[Draz74]

But it's not JUST having level 9 spells. I mean, if you gave the warmage 6+int skills and Int-based casting, it wouldn't make the Warmage tier 3 right?

Hmmmm. Good question (assuming that you also intended to give it a good skill list).

It certainly wouldn't be as good as the Beguiler, since it still wouldn't have game-altering utilities like Haste, Time Stop, illusions, Dominate, and Invisibility. But it might be (low) Tier 3 still.

The Rogue is generally considered quite high Tier 4. A Warmage with a very generous skill fix would be pretty similar to a Rogue, with spells instead of Sneak Attack. But I think the Warmage would be slightly better, since at least he can deal his massive damage to large groups of targets, and from 400+ feet away, and switch energy types if he runs into something that resists some of his spells. So ... yeah, either very high Tier 4, or low Tier 3.

[Basket Burner]

And that's his only Lesser Invocation for a few levels at that, meaning it's worthless against enemies with Blindsight Tremmorsense, ora few other abilities that bypass it. Never mind the save problems.

To be fair, blinding is not entirely useless against enemies with those abilities. Most of them still treat you as having total concealment if they cannot see you, and most likely the range of those abilities is far shorter than their base visual range. The problem is simply that he's late to the party. He's getting the most basic tricks, long after other classes did and right around the time said classes are getting new and better things. Beguilers have Glitterdust. And it isn't single target.

And the reason why he is late to the party is because at will abilities were overvalued. Mostly because they ignored that when you run out of HP, you can no longer use those abilities and that that takes less time than running out of almost any limited use ability.

[faceroll]

They have actual spellcasting

At about 1/2 +2 their CR. A very old red dragon's spells can reasonably be dispelled with a vanilla dispel magic.


The Warblade not only has Tumble as a class skill, but several very efficient means of getting Swift action movement (Quicksilver Motion and Sudden Leap, amongst others). Or he can use War Leader's Charge or another White Raven maneuver, initiate WRT on himself, and then smack the dragon with Tombstone Mountain Strike.

Can a warblade do 450 damage in a turn? Honest question. I suspect that his methods of doing that much damage would be identical to the methods a fighter/barbarian would use, though, and isn't really that dependent on being a warblade.


Although both situations would be impossible for either class if the Dragon were optimized to it's Tier 2 potential.

Dragons are half casters; even with loredrake, do they really approach T2? I guess Gold and Red at CR Epic get the 9ths.


Hmm..how WOULD a Warlock best fight a dragon who chooses its spells optimally? I mean, what's to stop a dragon from pwning a Warlock the same way a dragon pwned Varsuuvius? AMF->Grapple? A Warlock can't outrun a dragon. Even with clumsy maneuverability, with their 200 fly speed and maybe a feat if necessary, the dragon can easily fly (circuitously) to the Warlock.

The warlock can dimension door at will.

[Psyren]

Warmages are definitely not T3, 9ths or no 9ths. "Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate." Not only are Warmages nigh-useless at any scenario except blasting, they're not even very good at that.

[Runestar]

Warmages are definitely not T3, 9ths or no 9ths. "Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate." Not only are Warmages nigh-useless at any scenario except blasting, they're not even very good at that.

I agree. For all their spells, warmages are for most part glorified archers, pretty much like warlocks.

[Big Fau]

Can a warblade do 450 damage in a turn? Honest question. I suspect that his methods of doing that much damage would be identical to the methods a fighter/barbarian would use, though, and isn't really that dependent on being a warblade.

Back during the Aelryinth debates over at Gleemax, I saw someone post a Stormguard Warrior build that could hit upwards of 1200, but that isn't exactly ideal against an effing dragon since it relies on the actions the enemy takes.

They can use the Fighter/Barbarian methods, and actually have a much easier time as a Charger build thanks to the maneuvers that allow them to charge.


So the answer is "It's identical to a Charger build, just significantly easier to pull off".

[AmberVael]

Can a warblade do 450 damage in a turn? Honest question. I suspect that his methods of doing that much damage would be identical to the methods a fighter/barbarian would use, though, and isn't really that dependent on being a warblade.

While Warblade certainly can benefit from many of the same damage boosting methods as other classes, maneuvers make it far easier for them to accomplish it. It is much easier to do tremendous damage when you can take two full attacks, for example (Time Stands Still) or can flat out multiply the damage of a single attack (Diamond Nightmare Blade). Such abilities also allow other methods of damage boosting, of course. Insightful strike opens up an interesting avenue as well.

Notice how all my examples are from Diamond Mind? I like Diamond Mind. :smalltongue:

I think it's telling to say that if the typical charger/power attack combo was thrown out, the ToB characters would still be able to manage, and still deal decent damage, while other damage builds/classes would likely suffer (not all, of course).

[Emmerask]

Warmages are definitely not T3, 9ths or no 9ths. "Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate." Not only are Warmages nigh-useless at any scenario except blasting, they're not even very good at that.

I don´t quite see why you say warmages are not good at blasting when they have some of the best blasting spells readily available?

Orb of x and fire seeds (put them in a bag and deal 8d8 + 160 dmg + 8* int without any metamagic that is quite impressive and the equivalent of ~ 50d8 ... in a small radius)
Also Firestorm against large quantities of low level enemies (40 10ft cubes that all deal 20d6 dmg).


They also have some limited battlefield control spells and due to high int they can easily put enough points into use magic device to use scrolls/wands for the helpful lower level utility spells.

So I wouldn´t even consider them a one trick pony advanced learning + umd gives them enough variety if chosen well.

Sure they don´t have any metamagic reducers but to my knowledge no base class has them build in (only prcs).

They don´t even come close to wizards, thats why they are tier 3 and not 1 or 2, but I think tier 3 is entirely justified by their abilities^^

[Basket Burner]

At about 1/2 +2 their CR. A very old red dragon's spells can reasonably be dispelled with a vanilla dispel magic.

It's a little higher than that, but still behind.


Can a warblade do 450 damage in a turn? Honest question. I suspect that his methods of doing that much damage would be identical to the methods a fighter/barbarian would use, though, and isn't really that dependent on being a warblade.

With Time Stands Still and White Raven Tactics on self? He'd have to try hard not to. I don't think that Fighters or Barbarians can do those things either.

Warlocks don't really have anything except a single, low damage attack.

Warmages miss out on the best blasting spells and completely miss out on almost everything that isn't blasting. Even simple things like Mirror Image and Fly. A Sorcerer with a handful of utility spells and the rest blasting is a better Warmage than a Warmage despite being very heavily underutilized itself.

[Emmerask]

What do you consider the best blasting spells?

For me its clearly Orb of X followed by fire seeds and the very situational fire storm (huge amount of gimp enemies) all of which are on the warmage spelllist ;)

[Basket Burner]

What do you consider the best blasting spells?

For me its clearly Orb of X followed by fire seeds and the very situational fire storm (huge amount of gimp enemies) all of which are on the warmage spelllist ;)

Wings of Flurry. Maw of Chaos. Orbs are decent but far from the best. Fire Seeds is good for making jokes about Guardian Acorns but otherwise just a shiny novelty.

But then, discussing which spells are best at blasting is like discussing whether it would be better to burn or freeze to death. Either way it's something better avoided. Which is why it also is not a coincidence that the spells that are considered the best are the ones that inflict a save or lose and just so happen to do damage as well.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Maw of Chaos is 9th level. Wings of Flurry is reflex half, SR yes, centered on caster. If you optimize blasting enough it becomes quite viable and more reliable than save or X. At the mid levels you achieve that reliability by chucking metamagic'd Orbs, which a Warmage can do. The problem is you need Sorcerer to make it truly reliable (and pile on the damage), since he also has Celerity, Arcane Fusion, Greater Dispel Magic, and Arcane Spellsurge.

But still, this is supposed to be about a Warlock. If the Bard is Jack of all Trades, the Warlock is the Ten of all Trades. He can blast... for mediocre damage. He has magical utility... but less so than other magical T3s. It's worth noting that T3s and T4s work just fine together. That's the juicy middle part where groups don't need to be coddled, nor can they pull out too many shenanigans.

Edit: There's also a lot of potential "experienced" overlap in tiers 2-4 if optimization level varies. A warlock optimized for versatility can look like a solid-to-high T3 in a relatively low-op group. A warmage who optimizes his orbs can look like a ridiculous T2. That doesn't mean they're T2, but the class that dominates the game, the one that has to be kept in check, is going to vary by group. Maybe the OP has had certain experiences with warlocks?

[Psyren]

Warlocks don't really have anything except a single, low damage attack.


I will point out that being able to craft any magic item in the game counts for something. It's not a kingmaker but it's there.

[Qwertystop]

I will point out that being able to craft any magic item in the game counts for something. It's not a kingmaker but it's there.

Wizards can do that too. As can artificers. As can T2 casters with enough knowstones (I think). As can the Factotum, if they're Sorc/Wiz spells.

[Frosty]

The warlock can dimension door at will.And what's the range of EB?

[TurtleKing]

Eldritch Blast has a normal range of 60ft. I say normal because add on Eldritch Spear to make it a flat 250ft. That invocation to me is best used if going to be flying a lot since the distance between targets can be quite long.

[Big Fau]

And what's the range of EB?

Same as that Dimension Door.


60ft, for the record. For both. Their DDoor is not nearly as powerful as the real thing, although it comes with free invisibility for one round.

[Frosty]

Same as that Dimension Door.


60ft, for the record. For both. Their DDoor is not nearly as powerful as the real thing, although it comes with free invisibility for one round.
Yah. 60 feet means the warlock will get attacked (and maybe grappled) by the dragon next turn, directly up or not.

Reresh my memory, do warlock abilities provoke AoOs and require concentration checks like spellcasting does?

[NNescio]

Yah. 60 feet means the warlock will get attacked (and maybe grappled) by the dragon next turn, directly up or not.

Reresh my memory, do warlock abilities provoke AoOs and require concentration checks like spellcasting does?

They are SLAs, so yes, unless noted otherwise.

On a side note, Hideous Blow technically also provoke AoOs, which makes it positively hideous.

[Big Fau]

Yah. 60 feet means the warlock will get attacked (and maybe grappled) by the dragon next turn, directly up or not.

Reresh my memory, do warlock abilities provoke AoOs and require concentration checks like spellcasting does?

Invocations are SLAs, so yes.

[Basket Burner]

Maw of Chaos is 9th level. Wings of Flurry is reflex half, SR yes, centered on caster. If you optimize blasting enough it becomes quite viable and more reliable than save or X. At the mid levels you achieve that reliability by chucking metamagic'd Orbs, which a Warmage can do. The problem is you need Sorcerer to make it truly reliable (and pile on the damage), since he also has Celerity, Arcane Fusion, Greater Dispel Magic, and Arcane Spellsurge.

Wings however is Force damage. Not nearly as easy to shut down. Optimizing blasting works better with a better chassis. And as you say, Sorcerers are better at being Warmages than Warmages while also having the utility and defenses they lack. Wizards are often mocked for being win Init or die, but really that goes to Warmages. Wizards (and Sorcerers) can survive if the enemy gets turns to act. And other caster classes, though they can't blast so well either.

Psyren: That might be meaningful except that most of the good items use common spells as their basis. Stat boosting items use their respective spells as the basis and many get those. Cloaks of resistance use the cantrip that almost every caster gets as their basis. And so forth.

[Draz74]

On a side note, Hideous Blow technically also provoke AoOs, which makes it positively hideous.

Or, to put it another way, Hideous Blow blows.

[Eldariel]

Wizards are often mocked for being win Init or die, but really that goes to Warmages.

What? Far as I know Wizards are approximately the single hardest class in the game to kill. What other class has multiple Contingency-type effects on their spell list, ability to take a turn at will, ability to predict the future and prepare accordingly, ability to be plain immune to damage & various negative effects, and later on the ability to never be flat-footed? I'm fairly certain only other Tier 1s can truly match Wizards far as being hard-to-kill goes.

[Emmerask]

I think there was a mid level spell in MagFr that renders one completely immune to all force based magic.

If this spell is widely used then elemental dmg becomes a lot better due to stuff like searing spell etc and the ability to substitute on the fly (metamagic rod) to any energy form the target is not immune to or even better vulnerable to.

But yes Sorcerers are better at being warmages then warmages, but sorcerers are also tier 2 for a reason and warmages only tier 3 ^^

[The Glyphstone]

I think there was a mid level spell in MagFr that renders one completely immune to all force based magic.

If this spell is widely used then elemental dmg becomes a lot better due to stuff like searing spell etc and the ability to substitute on the fly (metamagic rod) to any energy form the target is not immune to or even better vulnerable to.

Force Ward in Spell Compendium, I think.

[Basket Burner]

What? Far as I know Wizards are approximately the single hardest class in the game to kill. What other class has multiple Contingency-type effects on their spell list, ability to take a turn at will, ability to predict the future and prepare accordingly, ability to be plain immune to damage & various negative effects, and later on the ability to never be flat-footed? I'm fairly certain only other Tier 1s can truly match Wizards far as being hard-to-kill goes.

That was exactly the point I was making. Wizards are called win Init or die because most of their good tactics involve going first, doing something that wins the combat, and then they won.

Warmages actually fit that definition because unlike the Wizard they can't do a damn thing to stop any enemy that wants to kill them from killing them aside from killing it first. Same as a mundane character actually.

And Warmages are tier 4.

Forceward exists, but things that block energy damage are a whole lot more common.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Wizards can do that too. As can artificers. As can T2 casters with enough knowstones (I think). As can the Factotum, if they're Sorc/Wiz spells.

Without the feat investment? Surely you jest! Furthermore, Warlocks can craft anything off of anyone's list. Think about that a moment. He can craft off the Paladin's list, off the Bard's list, off the Trapsmith's list... if it's arcane or divine, he can do it.

Chameleon2+Warlock12 = Making 90% of the magic items out there, including every single use-activated item in the game, with ZERO feat investment. Not even the Artificer can say that, although he does get magic item creation feats as bonus feats, I think.

When he's crafting, it's the relevant crafting feat. When he's adventuring, it's generally Extra Invocation for simulating a floating invocation that is changeable on a daily basis.

[Eldariel]

That was exactly the point I was making. Wizards are called win Init or die because most of their good tactics involve going first, doing something that wins the combat, and then they won.

Warmages actually fit that definition because unlike the Wizard they can't do a damn thing to stop any enemy that wants to kill them from killing them aside from killing it first. Same as a mundane character actually.

And Warmages are tier 4.

Forceward exists, but things that block energy damage are a whole lot more common.

I'm pretty sure Wizards can afford to lose initiative against a large array of encounters and still survive.

[Basket Burner]

I'm pretty sure Wizards can afford to lose initiative against a large array of encounters and still survive.

That, once again is exactly what I just said.

[Qwertystop]

Without the feat investment? Surely you jest! Furthermore, Warlocks can craft anything off of anyone's list. Think about that a moment. He can craft off the Paladin's list, off the Bard's list, off the Trapsmith's list... if it's arcane or divine, he can do it.

Chameleon2+Warlock12 = Making 90% of the magic items out there, including every single use-activated item in the game, with ZERO feat investment. Not even the Artificer can say that, although he does get magic item creation feats as bonus feats, I think.

When he's crafting, it's the relevant crafting feat. When he's adventuring, it's generally Extra Invocation for simulating a floating invocation that is changeable on a daily basis.

The only way the Warlock gets the zero-feat crafting is by using Chameleon's floating feat. Factotum can get 2 levels of Chameleon as well. Use the floating feat for crafting when you're doing that, and Font of Inspiration otherwise. Admittedly it's arcane-only, but that's still quite a lot.

Also, how can't the Artificer do that? Is he Arcane-only or something?

Don't forget, Craft Wondrous Item can replace all the other maic item feats and then some. Sure, you can't make a Wand, but you can make a Use-activated 50-charge Small Object of [Insert Spell Here]. And it has no max level on the spell. Same goes for Potions (One-Use Small Object of Insert Spell Here), Rings (Ring-slot Item of Insert Effect Here), you get the idea.

[Eldariel]

That, once again is exactly what I just said.

...so you did... Lesson learned, don't drink and surf.

[The Glyphstone]

Forceward exists, but things that block energy damage are a whole lot more common.

The hilarious irony would be if the most optimal blasting tactic was fire damage because of recursive meta-knowledge...everyone knows fire is the easiest thing to defend against, so no one bothers to attack with it, and since everyone knows no one will attack with it, no one actually bothers to put up defenses against it...:smallamused:

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

You know what energy type is hard to resist? Searing Fire. Burn, fire elementals, burn!

[Suichimo]

The hammers do +2d6, +6d6, and +12d6 damage to an object and ignore hardness. Assume level 13 fighter and level 13 warblade. Both are using big two handed weapons and full power attack, and have 18 strength (lower strength favors the warblade).

Warblade gets 12d6(strike)+2d6(weapon)+1d6(stance)+6(strength)+2 6 as a standard action. That's an average of 85 damage. A stone wall, a half foot thick, has 90 HP.
A fighter does:
2d6+6+26 damage three times, for 117 points of damage.

Every additional point of strength, BAB, or magic weapon enhancement will increase the fighter's damage output at 3x the rate as the warblades for a single round attack. If you use a barbarian with whirling frenzy, the barbarian can hack through a foot of stone wall in a round. The warblade, on the other hand, will likely require 3 or 4 rounds, if he uses just strikes.

Where the warblade pulls ahead is when anything has 20 or more hardness, like magically treated iron, or when having a move action and being able to break something in the same round is important.

Assuming they're both using the same weapon, what melee character doesn't appreciate an Adamantine weapon, why wouldn't the Warblade, with his superior intelligence, start using regular full attacks at this point? A few more levels and the Warblade gets fun stuff like Time Stands Still, I feel sorry for any wall in his way.

[Draz74]

Assuming they're both using the same weapon, what melee character doesn't appreciate an Adamantine weapon, why wouldn't the Warblade, with his superior intelligence, start using regular full attacks at this point? A few more levels and the Warblade gets fun stuff like Time Stands Still, I feel sorry for any wall in his way.

Especially if he also has Wolf Pack Tactics, so he can 5-foot step deeper into the wall each time he destroys another square of it. :smallamused:

[Big Fau]

@Faceroll: The Lockpick works best at the lower levels, but you proved that Barbarians and Fighters eventually do outdamage a Warblade of equal level if you assume equal optimization.

[Qwertystop]

@Faceroll: The Lockpick works best at the lower levels, but you proved that Barbarians and Fighters eventually do outdamage a Warblade of equal level if you assume equal optimization.

Except that Warblades can full-attack just as much as Barbarians and Fighters, if the damage would be better. They don't have to use maneuvers, if the only goal is damage.

[Basket Burner]

The hilarious irony would be if the most optimal blasting tactic was fire damage because of recursive meta-knowledge...everyone knows fire is the easiest thing to defend against, so no one bothers to attack with it, and since everyone knows no one will attack with it, no one actually bothers to put up defenses against it...:smallamused:

That would be true, and an example of the meta evolving in action. Except that there are a lot of things with natural resistances and immunities on top of the ability to get a resistance or immunity to any of the 5 elements easily.

[Emmerask]

Well there are a few force creatures, but yes they are far and few in between compared to fire and cold creatures

[Psyren]

Wizards can do that too. As can artificers. As can T2 casters with enough knowstones (I think). As can the Factotum, if they're Sorc/Wiz spells.

For the divine stuff, Wizards need someone to cooperate with them. Archivists can almost make anything but there is a small subset that they cannot emulate and would also need cooperation. And you mentioned the difficulty of Factotum.

Whereas Warlocks can make everything in the game completely by themselves - and unlike Artificers, the items they make become explicitly arcane or divine and so can be used by others without UMD.

[Qwertystop]

For the divine stuff, Wizards need someone to cooperate with them. Archivists can almost make anything but there is a small subset that they cannot emulate and would also need cooperation. And you mentioned the difficulty of Factotum.

Whereas Warlocks can make everything in the game completely by themselves - and unlike Artificers, the items they make become explicitly arcane or divine and so can be used by others without UMD.

So the ability to craft anything would on its own be worth a tier bump? Even though many other classes can do almost as much, and still do other things? And even though Warlocks can't do it until level 12?

I'm not saying Warlocks can't do it, I'm just saying other classes can do it as well and that's not the reason they're in their tiers (with the possible exception of Artificer, but they still can do useful stuff in combat, and can craft much more cheaply with the Craft Reserve).

[Basket Burner]

Well there are a few force creatures, but yes they are far and few in between compared to fire and cold creatures

I think that a lot of the stuff about blasting comes down to people correctly describing the situation and then coming to a false conclusion based on that information. Not here, and not in this thread even, but in general there are a lot of misconceptions about it.

[Psyren]

So the ability to craft anything would on its own be worth a tier bump? Even though many other classes can do almost as much, and still do other things? And even though Warlocks can't do it until level 12?

Where did I ever say they get a tier bump from being able to craft anything? :smallconfused: I just said it was a nice, and unique, ability.

Artificers can do it too, but their items are not universally usable like a Crafterlock's are.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Except that Warblades can full-attack just as much as Barbarians and Fighters, if the damage would be better. They don't have to use maneuvers, if the only goal is damage.Better yet, they can use boosts and counters on top of their full attacks.

[BlackestOfMages]

Where did I ever say they get a tier bump from being able to craft anything? :smallconfused: I just said it was a nice, and unique, ability.

Artificers can do it too, but their items are not universally usable like a Crafterlock's are.

the way you phrased your answers, and the tread/discussion and which side you appear to fall on, gives the impression that warlock-crafting is your argument for why they should be T3 :smallwink:

[Psyren]

the way you phrased your answers, and the tread/discussion and which side you appear to fall on, gives the impression that warlock-crafting is your argument for why they should be T3 :smallwink:

I was specifically responding to this statement:


Warlocks don't really have anything except a single, low damage attack.

Which is absolutely not true. I made no statement whatsoever about them shifting tiers.

[classy one]

Having been in a long campaign with both a swordsage and a warlock, I'd say that warlocks are more durable. I don't really have a firm grasp of either class but the campaign was from level 6 to 15.

Only had a handful of encounters where the swordsage survived. I mean they just can't take a hit, and this was after he used all his counters or whatever swordsages have. Sure he did impressive damage (even more so since he was a level below us non-dying party member), but was dead more often than he was alive.

The warlock on the otherhand was flying around tentcle raping everything and debuffing from the safety of the sky. He was somehow even able to become invisible at will too. Not sure if that was an invocation or item, but he did more for the party just by staying alive.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Having been in a long campaign with both a swordsage and a warlock, I'd say that warlocks are more durable. I don't really have a firm grasp of either class but the campaign was from level 6 to 15.

Only had a handful of encounters where the swordsage survived. I mean they just can't take a hit, and this was after he used all his counters or whatever swordsages have. Sure he did impressive damage (even more so since he was a level below us non-dying party member), but was dead more often than he was alive.

The warlock on the otherhand was flying around tentcle raping everything and debuffing from the safety of the sky. He was somehow even able to become invisible at will too. Not sure if that was an invocation or item, but he did more for the party just by staying alive.

This may be due to optimization difference as well as player competence. If we had more info on their respective builds and play styles this could be valid evidence. But its too vague to contribute to the discussion.

[Qwertystop]

I was specifically responding to this statement:



Which is absolutely not true. I made no statement whatsoever about them shifting tiers.

Ah. In that case, I apologize.

[AmberVael]

Having been in a long campaign with both a swordsage and a warlock, I'd say that warlocks are more durable. I don't really have a firm grasp of either class but the campaign was from level 6 to 15.

Only had a handful of encounters where the swordsage survived. I mean they just can't take a hit, and this was after he used all his counters or whatever swordsages have. Sure he did impressive damage (even more so since he was a level below us non-dying party member), but was dead more often than he was alive.

The warlock on the otherhand was flying around tentcle raping everything and debuffing from the safety of the sky. He was somehow even able to become invisible at will too. Not sure if that was an invocation or item, but he did more for the party just by staying alive.

A well played Warlock can be pretty awesome, I'll say. And yes, the invisibility thing was an invocation (Walk Unseen- there is also a higher level one that duplicates Greater Invisibility, in case you saw him attacking and maintaining invisibility). But they are fairly limited in their power choice.

And yeah, for all that his options may not be as powerful offensively, a warlock can be an incredibly defensive character. I don't know of another class that can get the defensive options they get for so long a time, at least that early (of course, a fullcaster can do it later, or even most of those things earlier but not nearly so frequently as the warlock). I mean, you've got a flying, untrackable invisible guy who is missed by ranged attacks (well, everyone one out of five) for all hours of the day- that's pretty defensive and infuriating to beat.

I would say your swordsage probably wasn't optimized though. If they're focusing on damage and can't take hits, that doesn't sound like they're quite doing it right. You can make a quite defensive swordsage too...

[candycorn]

The biggest issue with the warlock is the same as when you go to a Baskin Robbins with $2. You see all these tasty, tasty options... But you can only pick one thing.

Simply put, warlocks have too few invocations known to be versatile enough for Tier 3. They're similar to the fighter, in that they can do one thing well, and they have a lot of options on what that one thing is. They're better off than the fighter, but still worse off than an actual Tier 3.

[faceroll]

Yah. 60 feet means the warlock will get attacked (and maybe grappled) by the dragon next turn, directly up or not.

Reresh my memory, do warlock abilities provoke AoOs and require concentration checks like spellcasting does?

warlock dimension door leaves a copy of himself behind, and then flies another 60 feet while invisible. Invisible and leaving images of himself, and always outside of blindsense range. He can use dispels on the dragon so it will never be able to see him (not without loredrake+practiced spellcaster +other stuff).


Except that Warblades can full-attack just as much as Barbarians and Fighters, if the damage would be better. They don't have to use maneuvers, if the only goal is damage.

But you didn't follow the discussion. A Warblade gets stone dragon lockpick. Everyone else just uses an adamantine hammer and doesn't bother wasting class features on a joke. Stone Dragon is useful for break DR when you can't make a full attack full power attack attack routine.


So the ability to craft anything would on its own be worth a tier bump? Even though many other classes can do almost as much, and still do other things? And even though Warlocks can't do it until level 12?

So if WotC came out with another class called the Drawziw, and it got full casting identical to the wizard, it wouldn't be T1 because the wizard already has full casting?


The biggest issue with the warlock is the same as when you go to a Baskin Robbins with $2. You see all these tasty, tasty options... But you can only pick one thing.

Simply put, warlocks have too few invocations known to be versatile enough for Tier 3. They're similar to the fighter, in that they can do one thing well, and they have a lot of options on what that one thing is. They're better off than the fighter, but still worse off than an actual Tier 3.

Yup, and not without a ton of optimization do they start to approach EZ-ToB. But I would argue that with enough optimization, they're higher in Tier than anything you can get with ToB. At the end of the day, ToB does three things: consistent damage, avoids damage (or save-or-have-a-bad-day), and moves around tactically. Once ToB can tentacle rape or craft any magic item, then maybe you can convince me they're not high T4/low T3.

[Frosty]

warlock dimension door leaves a copy of himself behind, and then flies another 60 feet while invisible. Invisible and leaving images of himself, and always outside of blindsense range. He can use dispels on the dragon so it will never be able to see him (not without loredrake+practiced spellcaster +other stuff).



But you didn't follow the discussion. A Warblade gets stone dragon lockpick. Everyone else just uses an adamantine hammer and doesn't bother wasting class features on a joke. Stone Dragon is useful for break DR when you can't make a full attack full power attack attack routine.



So if WotC came out with another class called the Drawziw, and it got full casting identical to the wizard, it wouldn't be T1 because the wizard already has full casting?



Yup, and not without a ton of optimization do they start to approach EZ-ToB. But I would argue that with enough optimization, they're higher in Tier than anything you can get with ToB. At the end of the day, ToB does three things: consistent damage, avoids damage (or save-or-have-a-bad-day), and moves around tactically. Once ToB can tentacle rape or craft any magic item, then maybe you can convince me they're not high T4/low T3.
I'm afb, bit isn't Blindsense for dragons out to 120ft? Also, whenever you use EB on the dragon, the dragon will know exactly where you are (you come out of invisibility I presume).

[faceroll]

I'm afb, bit isn't Blindsense for dragons out to 120ft? Also, whenever you use EB on the dragon, the dragon will know exactly where you are (you come out of invisibility I presume).

You're never away from books (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm) (it's 60ft blindsense, 120ft darkvision).
Use the greater invisibility one.

[Big Fau]

So if WotC came out with another class called the Drawziw, and it got full casting identical to the wizard, it wouldn't be T1 because the wizard already has full casting?

The Artificer has been crafting magic items from level 1, whereas the Warlock can't craft until 12th unless he spends feats. Tier differences aside, the item crafting abilities of a Warlock are unbalanced by nature (not as much as the Artificer though), but that stems from item crafting in general being broken.

Basing a class' tier around an ability that doesn't even exist until the mid-levels isn't exactly a good standard, even if that ability is (based on) an incredibly broken ability like Item Crafting.



The item crafting ability of the Warlock class also isn't the class' main feature, it's a footnote in the progression that's being highlighted because it's based on a broken ability.

[YouLostMe]

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff210/Dfriendz/ohlookitsthisthreadagain.jpg

Honestly, guys, the Tier system is an abstraction, and not a great abstraction at that. Tier 3 and Tier 4 play together most of the time. Let's move on.

[Basket Burner]

Blindsense defeats illusions.

[NNescio]

Blindsense defeats illusions.

Major Image can fool blindsense though.

[Basket Burner]

Major Image can fool blindsense though.

I see nothing to that effect. It can produce sight, sound, and thermal illusions. Nothing about fooling blindsense.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

I'm afraid you're mistaken.

This spell functions like silent image, except that sound, smell, and thermal illusions are included in the spell effect.

Some creatures have blindsight, the extraordinary ability to use a nonvisual sense (or a combination of such senses) to operate effectively without vision. Such sense may include sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation.

[Basket Burner]

That post does not in any way prove me wrong. To do so, dragon blindsense would have to specifically say that it is based on sound or scent. If based on any of the other things listed, it bypasses the illusion.

[Hiro Protagonest]

That post does not in any way prove me wrong. To do so, dragon blindsense would have to specifically say that it is based on sound or scent. If based on any of the other things listed, it bypasses the illusion.

If specific doesn't overrule the general, the general applies. It doesn't specify what it's based on, so we turn to the general rules on blindsense. I can't see dragons as having echolocation, and the vibrations part is redundant of that, so that makes it smell or hearing.

[Basket Burner]

Vibrations would be sort of like tremorsense, except that it doesn't have to be touching the ground. Since it does not say what sort of Blindsense dragons have, it also does not say whether or not they can defeat illusions with it.

Whatever the case, they can always throw out a Glitterdust, particularly after they realize what is happening.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

That post does not in any way prove me wrong.
Oh yes, it does.

[JaronK]

That post does not in any way prove me wrong. To do so, dragon blindsense would have to specifically say that it is based on sound or scent. If based on any of the other things listed, it bypasses the illusion.

IIRC, Draconomicon does say that it's based on hearing.

JaronK

[Basket Burner]

IIRC, Draconomicon does say that it's based on hearing.

JaronK

But it is only 60 feet, yes? So it can easily detect and Glitterdust the real one anyways.

[JaronK]

I believe so, yes. The trick to illusions is always to make the enemy not realize it's an illusion, of course... if they're Glitterdust checking it, you probably messed up. Then again, if they blow the Glitterdust just to check your illusions and don't hit you (or allies) with it, then you've denied them actions. That's valuable.

JaronK

[Basket Burner]

I believe so, yes. The trick to illusions is always to make the enemy not realize it's an illusion, of course... if they're Glitterdust checking it, you probably messed up. Then again, if they blow the Glitterdust just to check your illusions and don't hit you (or allies) with it, then you've denied them actions. That's valuable.

JaronK

That is not the point.

The Warlock does his 60 feet teleport and image thing.

The dragon uses his far greater than 60 feet fly speed, and blindsense to find the real Warlock. He Glitterdusts them.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

60 ft. is more then 10 ft. >.>

[Douglas]

60 ft. is more then 10 ft. >.>
Yes. And?

If you're implying that the dragon can't hit both the image and the real Warlock with a single Glitterdust, you are correct but your point is completely irrelevant. The dragon uses his fly speed and blindsense to find the real Warlock and hits only the real Warlock with Glitterdust while ignoring the image.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Maybe, but that's not what he said. He said "them".
And how does the dragon know that the illusion isn't the original? That's the point of this invocation. To fool your enemy. The dragon doesn't know that the Warlock teleported. The blindsense picks up the illusion, so the dragon attacks the illusion.

[Douglas]

Maybe, but that's not what he said. He said "them".
I'm pretty sure his use of "them" was intended as the not-strictly-grammatically-correct gender neutral singular.


And how does the dragon know that the illusion isn't the original? That's the point of this invocation. To fool your enemy. The dragon doesn't know that the Warlock teleported. The blindsense picks up the illusion, so the dragon attacks the illusion.
Dragons tend to have extremely high spellcraft and knowledge skill bonuses, so the dragon probably recognized the invocation the instant the Warlock started using it. Further, if the Warlock's new location is in blindsense range at all then it's a dead giveaway - Warlock does something and suddenly at the same instant a creature pops up elsewhere in blindsense but not sight? Something's up and the invisible thing needs to be investigated.

Even out of blindsense range, dragons have extremely high listen and spot checks and stand a good chance of noticing the real Warlock with those even despite the large modifiers for invisibility, and again an invisible creature that appeared when the Warlock did something bears investigation.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

I'm pretty sure his use of "them" was intended as the not-strictly-grammatically-correct gender neutral singular.
I don't think so.


Dragons tend to have extremely high spellcraft and knowledge skill bonuses, so the dragon probably recognized the invocation the instant the Warlock started using it.
That I might grant you, although not every dragon will have this skills and the dragon doesn't have to notice that an invocation was used. It's an (Sp) ability. What Spellcraft says about identifying spells being cast? "Identify a spell being cast. (You must see or hear the spell’s verbal or somatic components.) No action required. No retry." so no, the dragon doesn't identify the invocation. Knowledge skill is irrelevant here.


Further, if the Warlock's new location is in blindsense range at all then it's a dead giveaway - Warlock does something and suddenly at the same instant a creature pops up elsewhere in blindsense but not sight? Something's up and the invisible thing needs to be investigated.
Look above. also, the Warlock doesn't teleport into the dragons blindsense range. He teleport away (plus moves away as a standard action).


Even out of blindsense range, dragons have extremely high listen and spot checks and stand a good chance of noticing the real Warlock with those even despite the large modifiers for invisibility, and again an invisible creature that appeared when the Warlock did something bears investigation.
Look above. and I don't think that his Spot modifier is high enough. Listen is irrelevant because the Warlock flies all day.

[TurtleKing]

I like the Warlock over ToB for the Warlock's versatility. Yes a ToB character can be great in a fight putting out a lot of damage. When damage is actually relevant. The Warlock however just works better because you get enough tools to do what you want and only a little more. By doing that they aren't like some Tier 1s that are broken because they can do any and everything. Also ones who say they can't be versatile several of the roles they can do only require 2-4 invocations usually so they can eventually do about 3-4 different roles just fine.

Basically I like them because they are fun.

[Basket Burner]

Yes. And?

If you're implying that the dragon can't hit both the image and the real Warlock with a single Glitterdust, you are correct but your point is completely irrelevant. The dragon uses his fly speed and blindsense to find the real Warlock and hits only the real Warlock with Glitterdust while ignoring the image.

Exactly. The dragon flies directly over the image. In doing so, his 60 foot blindsense detects both the image and the actual Warlock. He then fires a Glitterdust at the ping he can't see. Warlock can't do that trick again.

And yes, them refers to the male or female Warlock that is doing this.

[JaronK]

For what it's worth, Dragons only have half the usual distance penalties for spot (Draconomicon) and IIRC Warlocks do use somatic gestures when using their invocations. Now, if the Warlock jogs about effectively after teleporting, he might get out of range... though I wouldn't try this in a dragon's lair. A smart dragon would know his lair well and you just wouldn't have that many places to go (the tunnels wouldn't be wider than his blindsense range, for example).

JaronK

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Exactly. The dragon flies directly over the image. In doing so, his 60 foot blindsense detects both the image and the actual Warlock. He then fires a Glitterdust at the ping he can't see. Warlock can't do that trick again.
Why is he even flying over?


And yes, them refers to the male or female Warlock that is doing this.
Nice cover up.


and IIRC Warlocks do use somatic gestures when using their invocations.
I don't see such a thing in the description.

[Douglas]

I don't think so.
Why not? It makes a lot more sense in context and is a common usage.


That I might grant you, although not every dragon will have this skills and the dragon doesn't have to notice that an invocation was used. It's an (Sp) ability. What Spellcraft says about identifying spells being cast? "Identify a spell being cast. (You must see or hear the spell’s verbal or somatic components.) No action required. No retry." so no, the dragon doesn't identify the invocation. Knowledge skill is irrelevant here.
Warlock invocations, unlike most SLAs, do in fact have somatic components. This is stated explicitly in the Warlock class description.


Look above.
At what?


also, the Warlock doesn't teleport into the dragons blindsense range. He teleport away (plus moves away as a standard action).
If he's trying to run away, yes, but the best he's likely to get in that case is one attack on the image from the dragon before it notices and then uses Flyby Attack to keep moving and find the real one.


Look above.
Again, at what?


and I don't think that his Spot modifier is high enough.
Winning Spot by 20 is enough to notice an invisible creature. Dragons have more hit dice than CR, are explicitly stated to typically have max ranks with it as a class skill, and have respectable wisdom. Warlocks don't have Hide as a class skill and therefore typically have no ranks in it.

Level 6 Warlock vs Young red dragon (CR 7):
Warlock has dex bonus (2 to 4, probably) + invis bonus (+20).
Dragon has +17.
The Warlock has the advantage, but by a small enough margin (5 to 7) that the dragon still stands a decent chance. Not also that at this level the Warlock can only teleport 40', which may not be enough to get out of blindsense range if the dragon is close in to attack.

Level 10 Warlock vs Juvenile red dragon (CR 10):
Warlock is about the same, may have boosted dex +2.
Dragon has +21.
The margin is narrower, and the Warlock still can't clear the full 60' blindsense distance in one jump.

Level 14 Warlock vs Adult red dragon (CR 15):
Warlock may have increased dex +6 between items and levelup boosts if he's focused it.
Dragon has +29.
Warlock can finally clear blindsense fully with the teleport, but the dragon has the advantage.


Listen is irrelevant because the Warlock flies all day.
Flying does not negate all noise. It does not negate the need for move silently checks. In fact, it doesn't even give a bonus on them.

Now, for the dragon to realize something's up just from Listen he doesn't need to pinpoint the Warlock. A simple "something's in that general area that I can't see" will do, and simply beating the Warlock at all is enough to get that. So, take the numbers for Spot and remove the Warlock's invis bonus. The dragon wins almost automatically and has a moderate chance of pinpointing the square.

[JaronK]

Page 7, Complete Arcane. They do say that Warlock Invocations have somatic gestures. It's in the Weapons and Armor Proficiencies section.

JaronK

[TurtleKing]

Actually if the dragon flies about 10ft above the image while the real Warlock went what 60ft down then the distance between the two is 70ft. So in that way the dragon cannot detect him with his blindsense. Cranted the Warlock will keeping having to all rear and predict the dragon's movements to keep outside detection.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Why not? It makes a lot more sense in context and is a common usage.
I've never seen it up until know. Of course now Basket can say whatever he wants to cover that up. I don't really care.


Warlock invocations, unlike most SLAs, do in fact have somatic components. This is stated explicitly in the Warlock class description.

Page 7, Complete Arcane. They do say that Warlock Invocations have somatic gestures. It's in the Weapons and Armor Proficiencies section.
Funny how in the "Invocations" features description it says that they're (Sp) and doesn't mention anything about any exceptions from those rules. It's like they made it so on purpose to fool the players. :smallannoyed:
Well, there goes my argument.

[JaronK]

And this really won't work in the most common place to fight a dragon (a lair).

As to the gesturing... well, there's a feat in Complete Scoundrel (IIRC) that lets you bluff to look like you're casting a different spell. If that were allowed for Warlocks you could have some fun with it.

But yeah, putting that somatic components thing in the Weapons and Armor section, instead of the Invocations section... really poor layout there.

JaronK

[Anarchy_Kanya]

It IS relevant to armors, but... yeah...

[Douglas]

Funny how in the "Invocations" features description it says that they're (Sp) and doesn't mention anything about any exceptions from those rules. It's like they made it so on purpose to fool the players. :smallannoyed:
Well, there goes my argument.
The "Invocations" section does mention arcane spell failure and refer to the weapon/armor proficiency section in its last paragraph.

I've never seen it up until know. Of course now Basket can say whatever he wants to cover that up. I don't really care.
I've seen it come up, well, pretty damn close to every time the subject of "what pronoun do you use for a single person of unknown gender?" comes up, plus a large number of times when that situation arose without being the center of discussion. Heck, I even remember my English class discussing it back in high school a time or two.

[Frosty]

I've never seen it up until know. Of course now Basket can say whatever he wants to cover that up. I don't really care.While in general I agree with your sentiment, you are incorrect in this specific case. The "them" as a gender-neutral pronoun is widely used in the United States at least (whether or not it is in fact grammatically correct to do so).

[Big Fau]

While in general I agree with your sentiment, you are incorrect in this specific case. The "them" as a gender-neutral pronoun is widely used in the United States at least (whether or not it is in fact grammatically correct to do so).

And every time someone does, I want to punch them.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

While in general I agree with your sentiment, you are incorrect in this specific case. The "them" as a gender-neutral pronoun is widely used in the United States at least (whether or not it is in fact grammatically correct to do so).
I'm not from USA, but I have never seen this on the internet and I frequent only polish and english language sites and boards. not to mention the countless threads about Vaarsuvius where it is very often talked about "he/she" and even there I didn't see any "them".

[dextercorvia]

I'm not from USA, but I have never seen this on the internet and I frequent only polish and english language sites and boards. not to mention the countless threads about Vaarsuvius where it is very often talked about "he/she" and even there I didn't see any "them".

You've seen it now. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they)

It isn't proper english, but many find the the proper use of He, etc. as biasing society toward the male. Therefore people have been looking for an out for years.

[Provengreil]

CR is appropriate for a party of 4. if it's a 1v1 thing, the srd encounter calculator says one lvl 10 PC is gonna fight...a cr 6. so there's a difference. if it's a party situation, then i'd say the dragon spending a full round to find and cast glitterdust on a nonhidey character is a pretty good drain on the thing's action economy anyway, and therefore a win for the party. if it's 1v1, then forget little hiding tricks, just pack on blast essences and slow the thing down or weaken it or something while getting some damage down, it's not like you're gonna miss.

[Basket Burner]

CR is appropriate for a party of 4. if it's a 1v1 thing, the srd encounter calculator says one lvl 10 PC is gonna fight...a cr 6. so there's a difference. if it's a party situation, then i'd say the dragon spending a full round to find and cast glitterdust on a nonhidey character is a pretty good drain on the thing's action economy anyway, and therefore a win for the party. if it's 1v1, then forget little hiding tricks, just pack on blast essences and slow the thing down or weaken it or something while getting some damage down, it's not like you're gonna miss.

No, it means that a level 10 Warlock should go 50/50 against a level 10 dragon. It also means they should be able to easily defeat a level 6 dragon, without even trying that hard. I don't see either of these happening. Not even close.

If there is a party there, then the dragon ignores the Warlock because they can't do anything to the dragon, and the dragon instead focuses on the party members that are threats. And either the party wins or it doesn't, but the Warlock doesn't contribute to this in any way.

[Big Fau]

No, it means that a level 10 Warlock should go 50/50 against a level 10 dragon.

No, it does not:


A monster’s Challenge Rating (CR) tells you the level of the party for which that monster is a good challenge. A monster of CR 5 is an appropriate challenge for a group of four 5th-level characters. If the characters are of higher level than the monster, they get fewer XP because the monster should be easier to defeat. Likewise, if the characters are of lower level than a monster’s Challenge Rating, the PCs get a greater award.

[Hiro Protagonest]

No, it does not:

At full resources of HP, spells, item uses, etc., you're expected to have an even chance of taking down a monster of your CR solo. Because not only are you expected to face 4 of them each day as a full party, you're also expected to win.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

At full resources of HP, spells, item uses, etc., you're expected to have an even chance of taking down a monster of your CR solo. Because not only are you expected to face 4 of them each day as a full party, you're also expected to win.In a standard level 8 Cleric/Fighter/Wizard/Rogue party, while a Stone Giant and a Greater Shadow are supposed to take away the same amount of resources, something tells me the Greater Shadow is going to win in a 1 on 1 fight. The CR system was designed for a party against an encounter, and even then it's only a very vague, quirky, error-ridden guideline. Extrapolating into different situations is just going to make things even wonkier.

[Starbuck_II]

No, it means that a level 10 Warlock should go 50/50 against a level 10 dragon. It also means they should be able to easily defeat a level 6 dragon, without even trying that hard. I don't see either of these happening. Not even close.

If there is a party there, then the dragon ignores the Warlock because they can't do anything to the dragon, and the dragon instead focuses on the party members that are threats. And either the party wins or it doesn't, but the Warlock doesn't contribute to this in any way.
First, WotC has stated their under rated CRs for dragons. So dragons aren't best example.
I also noticed you chose when Warlock was 1 level below their next Tier abilities. A wizard is weaker at 4th level than 5th (no 3rd level spells) in same manner as a Sorceror at level 5 but not 6th.
Anyhoo, CR 6 dragon? Young Blue Dragon, juvenile White Dragon, and young brass Dragon are only CR 6.

A Lv 10 Warlock had take one of them: UMD will be most important thing (as he has a class feature for making scrolls)
1) vs young Blue dragon: no SR, low touch AC, no spellcasting.
Only thing in favor is the breath weapon DC isn't bad (18) and it has a lot of hp to take down.
Good invocations: Swarm of bats/Summon Swarm (only breath can harm them), Curse of Dispair, Brimstonme blast (reflex lowest saving throw).

2) vs juvenile White Dragon: no SR, low touch AC, no spellcasting.
Only thing in favor is the breath weapon DC isn't bad (18) and it has a lot of hp to take down.
Good invocations: Swarm of bats/Summon Swarm (only breath can harm them), Curse of Dispair, Brimstone blast (reflex lowest saving throw) and it deals extra damage because cold subtype.

3) vs young Brass Dragon: no SR, low touch AC, 1st spellcasting.
Only thing in favor is the breath weapon DC isn't bad (17) and it has a lot of hp to take down.
Good invocations: Swarm of bats/Summon Swarm (only breath can harm them), Curse of Dispair, Hellrime blast blast (reflex lowest saving throw) and extra damage due to fire subtype.
These is the best fight for Warlock: lowest hp of CR 6 dragon, easy to hurt, weakest damage from breath weapon.

Yeah, a warlock could beat them. Although, likely the young Blue might give him trouble.

[Basket Burner]

No, it does not:

If you fight yourself, do you expect that your chance of victory will be greater than, less than, or equal to 50%? Why do you think that?


First, WotC has stated their under rated CRs for dragons. So dragons aren't best example.
I also noticed you chose when Warlock was 1 level below their next Tier abilities. A wizard is weaker at 4th level than 5th (no 3rd level spells) in same manner as a Sorceror at level 5 but not 6th.
Anyhoo, CR 6 dragon? Young Blue Dragon, juvenile White Dragon, and young brass Dragon are only CR 6.

I used the level that was provided to me, I did not choose anything.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

If you fight yourself, do you expect that your chance of victory will be greater than, less than, or equal to 50%? Why do you think that?If a (CR 8) Stone Giant fights a (CR 8) Greater Shadow, do you think the chance of victory for the Stone Giant will be greater than, less than, or equal to 50%? Some creatures have abilities that WotC expected a party to counter - Jozan, the Cleric 8 of the Burning Hate, can probably dust a Greater Shadow on round 1 - but not necessarily other creatures.

[Curious]

If a (CR 8) Stone Giant fights a (CR 8) Greater Shadow, do you think the chance of victory for the Stone Giant will be greater than, less than, or equal to 50%? Some creatures have abilities that WotC expected a party to counter - Jozan, the Cleric 8 of the Burning Hate, can probably dust a Greater Shadow on round 1 - but not necessarily other creatures.

I have nothing to contribute to this post except to grin at the reference to Pelor. :smalltongue:

[Basket Burner]

If a (CR 8) Stone Giant fights a (CR 8) Greater Shadow, do you think the chance of victory for the Stone Giant will be greater than, less than, or equal to 50%? Some creatures have abilities that WotC expected a party to counter - Jozan, the Cleric 8 of the Burning Hate, can probably dust a Greater Shadow on round 1 - but not necessarily other creatures.

How about if the CR 8 Stone Giant also goes one on one with 9 other CR 8s, and you determine his average win rate against the 10?

But that doesn't have anything to do with Warlocks, as single attack for low damage gives anything plenty of time to react to, and kill off the source of the attacks. In other words, the Warlock is at less than 50%, as in below par.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

How about if the CR 8 Stone Giant also goes one on one with 9 other CR 8s, and you determine his average win rate against the 10?

But that doesn't have anything to do with Warlocks, as single attack for low damage gives anything plenty of time to react to, and kill off the source of the attacks. In other words, the Warlock is at less than 50%, as in below par.The point is that the CR system wasn't designed for duels. A Warlock, with his various travel, detection, dispel and other utility powers, will cause a group composed of WotC Playtesters to burn a decent amount of resources without the encounter becoming the oh-so-swingy game of rocket tag. That, to be honest, is a far better-sounding encounter than most 1-NPC-versus-Party encounters in D&D. Whether or not a well designed warlock could take on a dragon of CR = Warlock level by himself (which depends on any number of things) is irrelevant.

The important part is that in a standard dungeon crawl dragon fight, the Warlock contributes by blasting it or using his limited utility invocations to distract and/or debuff it. Is he going to outshine anyone? Most definitely not, but he'll survive and contribute. Same story for all the other types of encounters. T4.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

First, WotC has stated their under rated CRs for dragons. So dragons aren't best example.
I also noticed you chose when Warlock was 1 level below their next Tier abilities. A wizard is weaker at 4th level than 5th (no 3rd level spells) in same manner as a Sorceror at level 5 but not 6th.
Anyhoo, CR 6 dragon? Young Blue Dragon, juvenile White Dragon, and young brass Dragon are only CR 6.

A Lv 10 Warlock had take one of them: UMD will be most important thing (as he has a class feature for making scrolls)
1) vs young Blue dragon: no SR, low touch AC, no spellcasting.
Only thing in favor is the breath weapon DC isn't bad (18) and it has a lot of hp to take down.
Good invocations: Swarm of bats/Summon Swarm (only breath can harm them), Curse of Dispair, Brimstonme blast (reflex lowest saving throw).

2) vs juvenile White Dragon: no SR, low touch AC, no spellcasting.
Only thing in favor is the breath weapon DC isn't bad (18) and it has a lot of hp to take down.
Good invocations: Swarm of bats/Summon Swarm (only breath can harm them), Curse of Dispair, Brimstone blast (reflex lowest saving throw) and it deals extra damage because cold subtype.

3) vs young Brass Dragon: no SR, low touch AC, 1st spellcasting.
Only thing in favor is the breath weapon DC isn't bad (17) and it has a lot of hp to take down.
Good invocations: Swarm of bats/Summon Swarm (only breath can harm them), Curse of Dispair, Hellrime blast blast (reflex lowest saving throw) and extra damage due to fire subtype.
These is the best fight for Warlock: lowest hp of CR 6 dragon, easy to hurt, weakest damage from breath weapon.

Yeah, a warlock could beat them. Although, likely the young Blue might give him trouble.

Perhaps you missed it, but Curse of Despair is a TOUCH SLA... in melee with a dragon is NOT where a Warlock wants to be.

I'd far rather have Flee The Scene. It's going to be hard for the Dragon to keep up with the Warlock if he's canny about where he goes (i.e. not out in flat open plain of infinite length), moreso because the dragon even 'sees' the illusion with Blindsense, which means it's hard for the dragon to tell when the Warlock has DimDoor'd out of the way, and has no idea where it went even if he did.

For the Blue, I'd almost like to have Beshadowed Blast. Sure, it's a Fort save, which is a Dragon's high-point, but it's also a save-or-suck effect. Sure, the dragon still knows what square he's in, but he's still got a 50% miss chance due to concealment. And, of course, the blast still did it's regularly scheduled damage.

The key for this fight is for the Warlock to flit around and whittle the dragon down while the dragon runs around chasing the bloody annoying menace but for some reason is unable to keep up.

Also, don't underestimate the Warlock's UMD. Glitterdust is fun, lacks SR, and can give the Warlock the upper hand for several rounds. Wand of Resist Energy would also significantly aid in keeping himself alive. Wand of Shivering Touch, of course, trivializes the encounter.

[Frosty]

If a (CR 8) Stone Giant fights a (CR 8) Greater Shadow, do you think the chance of victory for the Stone Giant will be greater than, less than, or equal to 50%? Some creatures have abilities that WotC expected a party to counter - Jozan, the Cleric 8 of the Burning Hate, can probably dust a Greater Shadow on round 1 - but not necessarily other creatures.
Jozan, Cleric of the god of sunshine and goodness, Pelor? :smallconfused:

[Big Fau]

Jozan, Cleric of the god of sunshine and goodness, Pelor? :smallconfused:

Pelor may not be a good deity. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558798/Pelor_the_Burning_Hate)

[Qwertystop]

Jozan, Cleric of the god of sunshine and goodness, Pelor? :smallconfused:

I can't remember the details, beyond that one of the pictures in one of the books shows a cleric of Pelor casting an [Evil] spell, and this was escalated by people into Pelor being "The Burning Hate", an Evil deity in disguise so as to attract worshippers who would later be indoctrinated into the inner circles of Evil.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Jozan, Cleric of the god of sunshine and goodness, Pelor? :smallconfused:Jozan, Cleric of the Burning Hate (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558798/Pelor_the_Burning_Hate). But I digress. The point is that while a level 8 party with a cleric, especially a cleric with the sun domain, has basically no trouble against a greater shadow and maybe a small bit of trouble against a stone giant, the stone giant is utterly ROFLstomped by the shadow. The designers were barely even interested in balancing the party with each other, or varied parties against encounters, so obviously one-on-one wasn't meant to be balanced.

[Eldariel]

Jozan, Cleric of the Burning Hate (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558798/Pelor_the_Burning_Hate). But I digress. The point is that while a level 8 party with a cleric, especially a cleric with the sun domain, has basically no trouble against a greater shadow and maybe a small bit of trouble against a stone giant, the stone giant is utterly ROFLstomped by the shadow. The designers were barely even interested in balancing the party with each other, or varied parties against encounters, so obviously one-on-one wasn't meant to be balanced.

The developers probably were interested in balancing parties against encounters but given they didn't even balance characters of the same level on any remotely relevant scale (and thus parties of the same level can have an immense variety of possible power levels), such balance is going to automatically be wonky at best. So even the intended "X vs. CR X" balance is dysfunctional.

But CR = APL+4 is approximated to be a close 50/50 fight for a party of 4 and multiplication of CR assumes that twice the numbers = CR + 2, we can deduct that as this assumes a party of 4, a single party member would have that 50/50 fight against a creature with CR equal to his level (because party of 4 is a single party member multiplied twice; 1*2*2 - as such, single party member would be capable of facing 4 CRs lower creatures than a whole party). Of course, this is just a logical extrapolation rather than anything that's stated anywhere outright.

[Zagaroth]

As something of a counter example, given the fixation on duel vs CR = to Level

Level 10 Warlock vs CR 10 Giant. Which is a Fire Giant

Warlock is flying. Giant attacks with a +10 to hit rock. Warlock's AC should be at least 20 by then (Dex +3, chain shirt +2, Ring of protection +1 would all be with in easy reach, and then some).

Should be able to stay at max range (250' directly above), which keeps the giant at 2 range increments (120' range, so 2 increments at 240'), bringin down the rock hurling to +6

5d6+ [effect] every round that a Nat 1 is not rolled vs "1d8+15 plus 1d6 fire" about 1 round in 4. Fast Healing might help here. Or darting up even further out of range, Loving some CLW from a wand, and dart back down for a few more blasts. Rinse & repeat.

A solo warlock SHOULd win this, while against a CR 10 dragon, not so much.


OTOH, a Beblith can neither fly nor attack at range greater than 50'. Warlock wins, no sweat (except that a beblith will plane shift away..still a win)

So, warlocks win vs anything that can't fly or attack at 250' range. Forcing it to flee counts as winning.

Really tough creatures that can can fly are going to have a good shot at them.

Not a perfectly balanced class with strengths, but not horrible.

And they break most modules :-D

[ShneekeyTheLost]

As something of a counter example, given the fixation on duel vs CR = to Level

Level 10 Warlock vs CR 10 Giant. Which is a Fire Giant

Warlock is flying. Giant attacks with a +10 to hit rock. Warlock's AC should be at least 20 by then (Dex +3, chain shirt +2, Ring of protection +1 would all be with in easy reach, and then some).

Should be able to stay at max range (250' directly above), which keeps the giant at 2 range increments (120' range, so 2 increments at 240'), bringin down the rock hurling to +6

5d6+ [effect] every round that a Nat 1 is not rolled vs "1d8+15 plus 1d6 fire" about 1 round in 4. Fast Healing might help here. Or darting up even further out of range, Loving some CLW from a wand, and dart back down for a few more blasts. Rinse & repeat.

A solo warlock SHOULd win this, while against a CR 10 dragon, not so much.Hellrime Blast makes this even more amusing, since it is effectively automatic-empowered.

Warlock also has Entropic Warding to further reduce the odds of a boulder actually hitting him.


OTOH, a Beblith can neither fly nor attack at range greater than 50'. Warlock wins, no sweat (except that a beblith will plane shift away..still a win)

So, warlocks win vs anything that can't fly or attack at 250' range. Forcing it to flee counts as winning.

Really tough creatures that can can fly are going to have a good shot at them.

Not a perfectly balanced class with strengths, but not horrible.

And they break most modules :-DOther than dragons and Tier 1/2 classes, however, there's not many powerful flying critters at this level.

[Basket Burner]

The point is that the CR system wasn't designed for duels. A Warlock, with his various travel, detection, dispel and other utility powers, will cause a group composed of WotC Playtesters to burn a decent amount of resources without the encounter becoming the oh-so-swingy game of rocket tag. That, to be honest, is a far better-sounding encounter than most 1-NPC-versus-Party encounters in D&D. Whether or not a well designed warlock could take on a dragon of CR = Warlock level by himself (which depends on any number of things) is irrelevant.

The Same Game Test would like a word with you.

Even a group that weak would easily swat down the Warlock quickly, and since he accomplished about nothing during that time...


The important part is that in a standard dungeon crawl dragon fight, the Warlock contributes by blasting it or using his limited utility invocations to distract and/or debuff it. Is he going to outshine anyone? Most definitely not, but he'll survive and contribute. Same story for all the other types of encounters. T4.

Trivial damage and trivial effects does not a contribution make. CW Samurai can lockdown enemies, which is not a minor effect and they manage to be Tier 6.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Trivial damage and trivial effects does not a contribution make.
You gonna explain, or do we have to take this baseless assumption as a fact?

[Runestar]

The issue with the warlock is that he is stuck with a 1/round ranged attack that deals pitiful damage relative to what a wizard or sorc could otherwise be coughing out. Heck, with the advent of complete mage and their reserve feats, now even casters get at-will blasting capabilities.

Conventional wisdom suggests that in any given fight, the faster you take down the enemy, the few rounds he had to attack (and thus deal out damage). Meaning the party takes less damage overall, and fewer resources need to be spent on healing.

Unless the opponent simply stands around allowing you to blast away with impunity, I don't see how a (lv/2)d6 attack each round is going to suffice. You are barely ticking the monster. :smallannoyed:

[Anarchy_Kanya]

At least the Warlock will hit more often then not. Dragon touch AC is very low.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The issue with the warlock is that he is stuck with a 1/round ranged attack that deals pitiful damage relative to what a wizard or sorc could otherwise be coughing out. Heck, with the advent of complete mage and their reserve feats, now even casters get at-will blasting capabilities. Eldritch Cone/Chain would like a word with you. So would Hindering/Nauseating/Bewitching/Beshadowing Blast.


Conventional wisdom suggests that in any given fight, the faster you take down the enemy, the few rounds he had to attack (and thus deal out damage). Meaning the party takes less damage overall, and fewer resources need to be spent on healing. Correct. However, the role of Battlefield Control is also an important one, which a Warlock does passably.


Unless the opponent simply stands around allowing you to blast away with impunity, I don't see how a (lv/2)d6 attack each round is going to suffice. You are barely ticking the monster. :smallannoyed: Being unable to reach you thanks to Hindering Blast, unable to take any hostile actions thanks to Nauseating Blast, unable to find you with Beshadowed Blast, or is taking the turn to have an interesting conversation with the pink elephants with Bewitching Blast can also help facilitate nickel-and-diming the critter to death.

Or, yanno, HFW and deal non-trivial damage to multiple targets.