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DracoDei
2011-10-10, 03:52 PM
For those of you familiar with my Organ Undead project, this is my attempt at keeping moving with it (making progress with Muscle Masses and Spinning Horizon Inner Ears, not so much with *shudders at trickiness of this final bit* Bladders) but I thought I would go ahead and post my notes so I don't lose them.

CRITICAL NOTE:
When calculating HD limits for Animate Dead and the control pool from Rebuking/Commanding adjust for the turn resistance unless the specific undead says otherwise. This is essential to keeping the lungs from being overpowered and the fat-globs from being underpowered. This should perhaps also apply for the material component costs regardless of method used to create the undead. All of this may be RAW for all I know, but I don't feel like checking right now, and I suspect it is not.


For those of you NOT familiar, just look at the links for the undead in question in the spell itself.

Here is what I have of the spell (It should be in playable condition).
Corpse Ripper
Necromancy [Evil]
Level: Clr 6, Death 6, Sor/Wiz 6, Dread Necromancer 6
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Touch
Targets: One corpse
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell causes a corpse to levitate up, hanging with its feet in contact with the ground in a limp standing position (or not, if the creature usually crawls like a snake). It then flays itself, the skin falling to the ground and rotting away within minutes, the brain oozing out of the nose to reform unharmed on the ground.The fat collects itself together in a pile lying near to the feet of the corpse (or beside the corpse for snakes etc), followed by the muscles sloughing off to rot with the skin and the spinal cord slithering out from behind the base of the pelvis. Several of the organs of the torso depart under independent locomotion. Finally the skeleton animates.

This spell generates all possible of the following undead from the corpse:
A Dark Heart
A Sinister Spinal Cord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199098)
A single Fat Glob (provided the corpse has at least 60 pounds of fat)
Rolling Eyeball(s) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6178899#post6178899) Usually 2, but not always
A pair of Floating Lungs, which is a single creature
A Hopping Stomach (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3301315)
Gut Snake (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3295643&postcount=8)
Zooming Brain (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131480) (or more than one in the case of multi-headed creatures)
A Slithering Liver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266469)
A Muscle Mass ((when I create it))
Two Spinning-Horizon Ears ((When I create it. Multiplied for multiheaded creatures.))


This spell specifically does NOT create an Empty Skin or a Skulking Bladder.

The skeleton starts in the same space the corpse occupied, the others start within the skeleton's same space if small enough to occupy it without squeezing. The other organs must be placed at the caster's discretion adjacent to the skeleton (remember that some of them can fly). All undead created by this spell may act as soon as the spell is completed (note that this usually does NOT allow time for the caster to make a Rebuke/Command Undead check unless they can do so as an immediate action).

No skill checks or non-onyx material components (repair materials for the skull, etc) are required for this spell, nor are the additional spells that are otherwise required for the creation of certain of the undead this spell creates.

This spell uses the same rules for control and the same control pool as Animate Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateDead.htm), suffers from a 20 HD cap on the maximum size of the undead that may be created (any undead that fall over this limit are not created, but this does not cause the overall spell to fail), unlike Animate Dead this spell may be cast at any time of day.
Dread Necromancers ignore the 20 HD cap.
Material Component
Black onyx gems worth at least 50 gp per Hit Die of the undead that this spell will create (you may NOT choose to create less undead from a given corpse than this spell is capable of creating from said corpse) these components only need be manipulated as normal for spellcasting, rather than needing to be placed into the mouth or eye socket of the corpse. The magic of the spell turns these gems into worthless, burned-out shells.


Example source creatures:
Corpse Ripper-ed cow
1 Large Skeleton (use THESE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=277912) statistics to base this on)
1 Medium Sinister Spinal Cord (CR ~1)
4 Tiny Hopping Stomachs (CR 1 each)
1 Diminutive Zooming Brain (Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6) (Call this CR 1/4)
Fly 150' (Clumsy)
1d2-1 damage(minimum 0) DC 9 (Fort or Will, whichever is LOWER) in 80' radius, effects go away after 2 minutes
0/1 Small Fat glob (eh... if it is a FAT cow then 60 lbs of fat sounds ok) (CR 1)
2 Rolling Eyeballs (CR 1/10 each... taken from bats)
1 Small pair of Floating Lungs (CR 7... what was I THINKING putting the damage that high? Then again, it is only 2 CRs higher than the heart, which may be close enough)
1 Large Gut-Snake (CR 4)
1 Tiny Dark Heart (CR 5)
1 Small Slithering Liver (CR 1)
1 Small Muscle Mass 7 HD (CR3)

If we omit the stuff I haven't created yet that gives us:
1 CR 7
1 CR 5
1 CR 4
1 CR 3
7/8 CR 1's
1 CR 1/4's
2 CR 1/10's
-------
Calling it 8 CR 1's to balance out not counting the brain and eyes
EL 10? 11?
...Which argues this ought to be at least a 7th level spell, although the CR 1s traditionally wouldn't be enough to count. Of course, since they are glass cannons, they might remain relevant even if all they do is draw an AoE, rather than a single-target save-or-die.


Using a Riding Dog instead we get:
1 Medium Skeleton (CR 1)
1 Small Sinister Spinal Cord (CR ~1)
1 Tiny Hopping Stomach (CR 1)
1 Fine Zooming Brain (Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6) (Call this CR 1/4)
Fly 150' (Clumsy)
1d2-1 damage(minimum 0) DC 9 (Fort or Will, whichever is LOWER) in 80' radius, effects go away after 2 minutes
NO Fat glob (Would have to be a LARDO of epic proportions to be carrying 60 lbs of fat) (CR N/A)
2 Rolling Eyeballs (CR 1/10 each... taken from bats)
1 Tiny pair of Floating Lungs (CR 4... what was I THINKING putting the damage that high? Then again, it is only 2 CRs higher than the heart, which may be close enough)
1 Small Gut-Snake (CR 1)
1 Diminutive Dark Heart (CR 3)
1 Tiny Slithering Liver (CR 1/2)
1 ??? Muscle Mass (CR 3 or less)

If we omit the stuff I haven't created yet that gives us:
1 CR 4
1 CR 3
4 CR 1's
1 CR 1/2
1 CR 1/4
2 CR 1/10's
----------------
EL 7


Cat:
1 Tiny Skeleton (CR 1/6)
1 Diminutive Sinister Spinal Cord (CR ~1)
1 Fine Hopping Stomach (CR 1/3)
1 Fine Zooming Brain (Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7) (Call this CR 1/4)
Fly 150' (Clumsy)
1d2-1 damage(minimum 0) DC 9 (Fort or Will, whichever is LOWER) in 80' radius, effects go away after 2 minutes
NO Fat glob (obviously) (CR N/A)
2 Rolling Eyeballs (CR 1/10 each... taken from bats)
1 Diminutive pair of Floating Lungs (CR 2)
NO Gut-Snake (I didn't make any that go down to Diminutive, since they aren't enough of a threat as grapplers)
1 Fine Dark Heart (CR 2)
1 Fine Slithering Liver (CR 1/2)
1 ???? Muscle Mass (CR ???)
If we omit the stuff I haven't created yet that gives us:
2 CR 2's
1 CR 1
1 CR 1/3
2 CR 1/4
1 CR 1/6
2 CR 1/10's
----------------
EL 5

Thoughts on spell level and other aspects of balance (I need advice here):
Anyway, this is over-powered compared to Shout, Greater, but then again, that is an underpowered spell for the most part. It is the same level as Create Undead, which seems about right, since it doesn't create intelligent servants. The full round casting time is a nerf compared to Animate Dead. I increased the material component cost to make up for the fact that it gets rid of the very flavorful skill-checks and additional spell requirements of the basic methods of creating these undead. The second is probably more important than the first from a balance perspective. I should perhaps ALSO add a costly focus or further increase the casting time (not to more than 3 rounds AT MOST though).

Don't want to make it higher than seventh spell level, since that would mean that I couldn't make Corpse Peeler (which has range, and also gives one the bladder and skin) two levels higher. I might also make it so Corpse Peeler can target more than one corpse.



This isn't a necromancers idea of action economy to cast in combat I don't think.

Note that the necromancer is going to have to save against the ability score damage from the brain in many cases... this is, of course, good for humor campaigns... but perhaps I need to make a less humorous version of that particular undead.


Yes, I know this is a logistical nightmare if cast unexpectedly (GM has to decide if that particular gnoll chieftain was fat, plus mental ability scores, plus...). I can add a master table for calculating the sizes of the various undead (which will have variations and ranges to it).

DracoDei
2011-10-27, 11:38 AM
Bumping for feedback since the monster series this spell augments is popular and this thread got a noticeable amount of views.

drack
2013-02-16, 04:13 PM
Assuming you still want feadback on it (and that the mods won't chew me out for giving it this much later)

Anywho

Master table: good idea

1 round casting time: I guess, though I'd probably give it the one hour that create undead has. I'd also add it's own temporary HD pool, though make a note that DMs can decide to disclude it.

Examples: I'd spoiler these under examples, or if the table works better probably ditch them, they make for a healthy block of text/numbers that most won't want to look at when reviewing it.

I would also point out that while you mention to include turn resistance some of the undeads specifically say not to count turn resistance against the number you can control.

Animate dead has no 20HD cap, that's just the standard skeleton/zombie templates that have those. Many other undeads later released don't have the same cap. Animate dead caps proportionally to your CL

"dread nec?" I'd say drop the question mark since a DM has to approve it for them first anyways.

May similarly be useful to have the undeads in the thread and spoilered for ease of access (and less reading, perhaps with a summary above the spoiler).

I'd also consider allowing the caster to pick and choose as each undead type has utility, but not everyone needs every utility, and picking/choosing has always been the key to success at necromancy.

Again, hopping that you were looking for feedback so that this can slip through without being necromancy. On the of chance that it doesn't work that way I'd ask that the mods PM me and I'll delete the post...

DracoDei
2013-02-17, 04:34 PM
Assuming you still want feedback on it (and that the mods won't chew me out for giving it this much later)
I was definitely looking for feedback, but I think you misunderstand the forum rules. I hope for my sakes that the mods DO understand, especially since the difference is a technicality in the order that things happen in.

In future what you should do for threads in the Homebrew section older than 6 weeks (and past a certain page I think? But that will probably never be the limiting factor), is to send a PM to the original poster asking THEM to bump the thread, THEN add your comment after they have done so. Or just send them critique in a PM.

Anywho

Master table: good idea
Even if it is "fuzzy" with ranges of sizes given, or things dependent on if the creature is bipedal, quadrupedal (or more) and the size of its tail if any?

1 round casting time: I guess, though I'd probably give it the one hour that create undead has.
A few reasons I don't like that:

Most or all of these undead are designed to be individually created via Animate Dead, which has a standard action casting time. As such that is my starting point for the casting time as far as spells go.
For the edification of anyone who has not read the creation rules: These undead are usually time-consuming to create. I actually never put in just HOW time-consuming for most of them, but you are basically performing very neat and precise butchering (or a slightly sloppy disection). This adds an aspect skill-use and slowness to things. This spell is the higher-level work-around for that and a few other problems. As such, if I am going to speed things up, I want to REALLY speed things up.
While this creates multiple undead, they are relatively fragile, and start bunched up, potentially making them vulnerable to AoEs... although they do get an turn to move apart before anything but readied actions can get them I think, but some of them are fairly slow.


OTOH, it would mitigate problems with fat/skinny enemies and mental ability scores having to be figured out in the middle of combat.

I'd also add it's own temporary HD pool, though make a note that DMs can decide to disclude it.
The duration is "instantaneous", thus I am not seeing anything at all "temporary" about such a HD pool since the undead stick around until destroyed. Or are you saying that the undead should de-animate after a certain period of time?


Examples: I'd spoiler these under examples, or if the table works better probably ditch them, they make for a healthy block of text/numbers that most won't want to look at when reviewing it.
Spoilers are good I suppose.

I would also point out that while you mention to include turn resistance some of the undeads specifically say not to count turn resistance against the number you can control.
I can add a note about that.

Animate dead has no 20HD cap, that's just the standard skeleton/zombie templates that have those. Many other undeads later released don't have the same cap. Animate dead caps proportionally to your CL
I did not know that there were later released undead that could be created using only Animate Dead. I made a bad unconscious assumption that everything would be added to Create Undead or higher. I would have to think about whether or not I want to allow a spell that creates a 20 HD undead among a large number of undead (some of which may be near that amount as well). Also, I want to keep some sort of a niche for the slower method that requires casting more than one spell* (thus giving a bit of difference between various classes)... actually, what I should do is say that the 20 HD limit on a single undead applies to every class EXCEPT Dread Necromancer, since they actually get a bit hosed by my creation rules since I don't think they get access to evocations, nor several other types of spells necessary to create the individual undead. Actually, come to that, I should say that Dread Necros gain all the spells necessary to make these things, but can ONLY cast them for that purpose. This would require editing/recreating all the individual undead though.
*The doubled material component cost is negligible. In fact, I wonder if I should probably change it to 100 gp per HD instead.

"dread nec?" I'd say drop the question mark since a DM has to approve it for them first anyways.
By approving the existence of the spell in their campaign in the first place you mean? Ok, I will remove the question mark.

May similarly be useful to have the undeads in the thread and spoilered for ease of access (and less reading, perhaps with a summary above the spoiler).
Oh, believe me. I would love to put all of this in one thread... I will PROBABLY do so one day. The problem is mostly that I don't necessarily have back-up copies of the latest versions of all of these on my computer, and with a lot of the threads falling under the mass-locking that happened a while back for site speed issues, I can't just copy paste the stuff easily, since that requires "quoting" or "editing" the original post. Maybe I can get a mod to unlock them when the time comes if I promise NOT to bump them and tell them when I am done so they can re-lock them. If I can't do that, I may be stuck with recreating the coding for the tables, which would be a pain.

Part of the problem here is motivation. People praise this series highly, but the amount of detailed critique has tailed off greatly over the course of the project, and the amount of usable play-test data for tweaking the mechanics has been basically zero (barring the games I ran myself).

Your comment is a breath of fresh air in that regard, but the individual creatures are the building blocks for the spell, and thus what I am more worried about. Not to mention that I put more work into most of the individual creature-types than I did the spell... well, maybe not if you count the example lists I created for humanoids and etc.

I'd also consider allowing the caster to pick and choose as each undead type has utility, but not everyone needs every utility, and picking/choosing has always been the key to success at necromancy.
Hmmm... I can see where you are coming from, but that sort of flexibility isn't something I want to give. I want there to be at least some sort of reason to do things in slower way, even when you get access to this spell.


Again, hopping that you were looking for feedback so that this can slip through without being necromancy. On the of chance that it doesn't work that way I'd ask that the mods PM me and I'll delete the post...
As I understand it, that won't help much, unless there was some way they could "unbump" the thread.

drack
2013-02-17, 07:36 PM
I was definitely looking for feedback, but I think you misunderstand the forum rules. I hope for my sakes that the mods DO understand, especially since the difference is a technicality in the order that things happen in.

In future what you should do for threads in the Homebrew section older than 6 weeks (and past a certain page I think? But that will probably never be the limiting factor), is to send a PM to the original poster asking THEM to bump the thread, THEN add your comment after they have done so. Or just send them critique in a PM.
I know, but... but... that's so roundabout! :smallbiggrin: Plus half knowing you I figured you'd want some, and were still active enough to get it in a reasonable amount of time. :smalltongue:
That and I've almost lost track of changes to make to my brews many a time from PMed input, so I figured tipping my hat to them may work as well.


Even if it is "fuzzy" with ranges of sizes given, or things dependent on if the creature is bipedal, quadrupedal (or more) and the size of its tail if any?

A few reasons I don't like that:

Most or all of these undead are designed to be individually created via Animate Dead, which has a standard action casting time. As such that is my starting point for the casting time as far as spells go.
For the edification of anyone who has not read the creation rules: These undead are usually time-consuming to create. I actually never put in just HOW time-consuming for most of them, but you are basically performing very neat and precise butchering (or a slightly sloppy disection). This adds an aspect skill-use and slowness to things. This spell is the higher-level work-around for that and a few other problems. As such, if I am going to speed things up, I want to REALLY speed things up.
While this creates multiple undead, they are relatively fragile, and start bunched up, potentially making them vulnerable to AoEs... although they do get an turn to move apart before anything but readied actions can get them I think, but some of them are fairly slow.


Answering this in two pars since I got lazy and quoted only once.
Even if it's just a little fuzzy some DMs prefer a simple block to default to even if it's roll 1dX, on odd get fat even don't get fat. :smalltongue:

Hmm, I suppose one standard action might work, but at the same time this requires less preparation (gems don't need to be in a certain place), and allows many more undeads to scamper out (which your enemies must make an attack against each of to get to you). I'd probably at least bump it to a minute.



The duration is "instantaneous", thus I am not seeing anything at all "temporary" about such a HD pool since the undead stick around until destroyed. Or are you saying that the undead should de-animate after a certain period of time?
I misspoke. :smallbiggrin: I mean it's own pool as I've seen other spells do. Sometimes I think it's better for balance to use the same pool, but other times I'm reminded that even then a caster can just get animate dead from another source and have another 4*HD to animate.



Spoilers are good I suppose.

I can add a note about that.

neato



I did not know that there were later released undead that could be created using only Animate Dead. I made a bad unconscious assumption that everything would be added to Create Undead or higher. I would have to think about whether or not I want to allow a spell that creates a 20 HD undead among a large number of undead (some of which may be near that amount as well). Also, I want to keep some sort of a niche for the slower method that requires casting more than one spell* (thus giving a bit of difference between various classes)... actually, what I should do is say that the 20 HD limit on a single undead applies to every class EXCEPT Dread Necromancer, since they actually get a bit hosed by my creation rules since I don't think they get access to evocations, nor several other types of spells necessary to create the individual undead. Actually, come to that, I should say that Dread Necros gain all the spells necessary to make these things, but can ONLY cast them for that purpose. This would require editing/recreating all the individual undead though.
*The doubled material component cost is negligible. In fact, I wonder if I should probably change it to 100 gp per HD instead.

Well for instance blood hulks in MM IV, bit HP heavy mindless undead things that bleed more when prodded with pointy things. :smalltongue:

As for dread necros the advanced learning lets them grab all the key necromancy spells, and invocations are most assuredly not the way to go to get huge armies of powerful undeads as most of the good necromancy spells are broken if you can cast them that many times...

As for costs one way that the other animate dead ones are crippled for being slightly better is that they may have a flat Xgp component necessary, or require multiple bodies. (likely the former in this case :smallwink:) Others though like living fossil in LM require harder to find corpses (like fossilized ones)



Oh, believe me. I would love to put all of this in one thread... I will PROBABLY do so one day. The problem is mostly that I don't necessarily have back-up copies of the latest versions of all of these on my computer, and with a lot of the threads falling under the mass-locking that happened a while back for site speed issues, I can't just copy paste the stuff easily, since that requires "quoting" or "editing" the original post. Maybe I can get a mod to unlock them when the time comes if I promise NOT to bump them and tell them when I am done so they can re-lock them. If I can't do that, I may be stuck with recreating the coding for the tables, which would be a pain.

Part of the problem here is motivation. People praise this series highly, but the amount of detailed critique has tailed off greatly over the course of the project, and the amount of usable play-test data for tweaking the mechanics has been basically zero (barring the games I ran myself).

Your comment is a breath of fresh air in that regard, but the individual creatures are the building blocks for the spell, and thus what I am more worried about. Not to mention that I put more work into most of the individual creature-types than I did the spell... well, maybe not if you count the example lists I created for humanoids and etc.

Yup, I'd figured, which honestly is part of the reason I suggest it. I recall a time when rather then mass locking mass deleting occurred. now I forget if this was 2006 or 2010 ish but I'd rather these not be one of those lost homebrew... personally I heard them when I was looking at another homebrewers animate tiny undead spell.

As for the critters themselves I was considering using them somewhat liberally in a game I'm gonna be DMing (though I'm trying to keep the necromancy element low key in recruitment so that I don't get a horde of paladins and clerics). Suppose I could tell you how they go and offer some feedback on them here if you'd like, though I'll admit the locked threads bit deters me a bit. Still I can't see consolidation of threads as a bad thing from the forum's point of view either... :smalltongue:



Hmmm... I can see where you are coming from, but that sort of flexibility isn't something I want to give. I want there to be at least some sort of reason to do things in slower way, even when you get access to this spell.
I suppose. Mostly I had been considering it'd be cool to have a one stop sop for them, perhaps with a new spell for them since animate dead is rather cluttered with options by now. I mean if you look at what they have, they have zombie dragons that can breath fire and fly, necrosis carnex that can heal your blokes, even the awakened zombie raven which for minimal HD scouts well enough. Considering the overlap I thought mayhaps making a new spell would direct animate dead to be more utility and the new one with it's pool more utility only. :smalltongue:



As I understand it, that won't help much, unless there was some way they could "unbump" the thread.
Fear not, I have accidentally bumped a homebrew for input before when I was new to the forum, and then noticed I was being too hasty so I deleted it... it fell back down along the page again :smallfrown: I think I got... five posts on that class back then? :smalltongue: So I think they are unbumped.

DracoDei
2013-02-17, 09:20 PM
I know, but... but... that's so roundabout! :smallbiggrin: Plus half knowing you I figured you'd want some, and were still active enough to get it in a reasonable amount of time. :smalltongue:
That and I've almost lost track of changes to make to my brews many a time from PMed input, so I figured tipping my hat to them may work as well.
Well, here is hoping...


Answering this in two pars since I got lazy and quoted only once.
Even if it's just a little fuzzy some DMs prefer a simple block to default to even if it's roll 1dX, on odd get fat even don't get fat. :smalltongue:
I... suppose I could include some subsidiary tables for that sort of thing. It seems like inviting laziness though. I am a big fan of researching anatomy, rather than using over-simplified rules.

It isn't like mental ability scores don't have a means of randomizing built into the game already... it gets a little wonky if either complete homogenity or a killing it/animating it disparity between the ability scores exists but at least the GM gets a choice of what to do. It also makes a level 4 expert with through the roof mental ability scores as the mastermind behind a group of CR 10 creatures a more juicy target, rather than someone who is merely an anticlimax when you actually corner him... not sure if that makes sense or not?


Hmm, I suppose one standard action might work, but at the same time this requires less preparation (gems don't need to be in a certain place), and allows many more undeads to scamper out (which your enemies must make an attack against each of to get to you). I'd probably at least bump it to a minute.
I wasn't going to reduce the casting time like that. A minute COULD work, but if you have a minute in D&D, you often have an hour.

I misspoke. :smallbiggrin: I mean it's own pool as I've seen other spells do. Sometimes I think it's better for balance to use the same pool, but other times I'm reminded that even then a caster can just get animate dead from another source and have another 4*HD to animate.
I think that trying to keep it limited and simpler is better than increasing the number of control pools.

neato



Well for instance blood hulks in MM IV, bit HP heavy mindless undead things that bleed more when prodded with pointy things. :smalltongue:


As for dread necros the advanced learning lets them grab all the key necromancy spells, and invocations are most assuredly not the way to go to get huge armies of powerful undeads as most of the good necromancy spells are broken if you can cast them that many times...
No no. You misunderstand. To create most of these things at the lower levels you need NON-necromancy spells as well. For instance, with the lungs, you have to remove the lungs (Skill Check), cast Shout, Sound Burst, or Shout, Greater over each one (depending on size), and then finally cast Animate Dead. Which means a Dread Necromancer can't create Floating Lungs without resorting to a magic item, or getting help from another caster.

I only realized this when responding to your earlier comment. It doesn't sit well with me, so I was jotting down an idea that when I re-write, I will make some sort of caviat about Dread Necromancers being allowed to spend spell slots of equivalent level to replicate Shout, Acid Arrow, etc etc but ONLY for purposes of preparing organs for turning into organ undead.

As for costs one way that the other animate dead ones are crippled for being slightly better is that they may have a flat Xgp component necessary, or require multiple bodies. (likely the former in this case :smallwink:) Others though like living fossil in LM require harder to find corpses (like fossilized ones)
So you are really strongly in favor of completely eliminating the secondary spells from the equation, even at the lower character levels?

Really not liking the idea. If you want to create it yourself, then go for it, but...

Yup, I'd figured, which honestly is part of the reason I suggest it. I recall a time when rather then mass locking mass deleting occurred. now I forget if this was 2006 or 2010 ish but I'd rather these not be one of those lost homebrew... personally I heard them when I was looking at another homebrewers animate tiny undead spell.
Wow... that was before my time. I figure they will give us a lot of warning before they do that though... if it comes to that extreme, which I rather suspect it won't.

As for the critters themselves I was considering using them somewhat liberally in a game I'm gonna be DMing (though I'm trying to keep the necromancy element low key in recruitment so that I don't get a horde of paladins and clerics). Suppose I could tell you how they go and offer some feedback on them here if you'd like, though I'll admit the locked threads bit deters me a bit.
Eh, post it here if you don't have a better option... just try to avoid getting more of my threads locked please?


Still I can't see consolidation of threads as a bad thing from the forum's point of view either... :smalltongue:
It is just so much work, for something I have gotten less and less support for as time has gone on.

I suppose. Mostly I had been considering it'd be cool to have a one stop sop for them, perhaps with a new spell for them since animate dead is rather cluttered with options by now. I mean if you look at what they have, they have zombie dragons that can breath fire and fly, necrosis carnex that can heal your blokes, even the awakened zombie raven which for minimal HD scouts well enough. Considering the overlap I thought mayhaps making a new spell would direct animate dead to be more utility and the new one with it's pool more utility only. :smalltongue:
Which is supposed to be utility?

Fear not, I have accidentally bumped a homebrew for input before when I was new to the forum, and then noticed I was being too hasty so I deleted it... it fell back down along the page again :smallfrown: I think I got... five posts on that class back then? :smalltongue: So I think they are unbumped.
Ah, well, I think we are past the point where that works, but if that is what the mods can and need to do and it will keep the thread from being locked, then that works for me.

drack
2013-02-18, 07:49 AM
I... suppose I could include some subsidiary tables for that sort of thing. It seems like inviting laziness though. I am a big fan of researching anatomy, rather than using over-simplified rules.

It isn't like mental ability scores don't have a means of randomizing built into the game already... it gets a little wonky if either complete homogenity or a killing it/animating it disparity between the ability scores exists but at least the GM gets a choice of what to do. It also makes a level 4 expert with through the roof mental ability scores as the mastermind behind a group of CR 10 creatures a more juicy target, rather than someone who is merely an anticlimax when you actually corner him... not sure if that makes sense or not?

Heh. Yeah I know, and personally I ignore most all of them, just a thought for others.



I wasn't going to reduce the casting time like that. A minute COULD work, but if you have a minute in D&D, you often have an hour.

Not necessarily. Minute casting time spells still have the potential to be cast in combat. Still I suppose half of them sort of work throughout the time frame that you're casting them (think storm of vengeance).
Hmm, well suppose this is the level where area effects are common so it's not all that much a problem. :smallbiggrin:



I think that trying to keep it limited and simpler is better than increasing the number of control pools.
I suppose, though you're already like to be juggling 3+ already. (1 rebuke pool/nec class (which mind you there are a few spells to boost), one animate pool/animate class, and the command undead "pool" (I call it a pool though really it's used as a flat number of mindless undeeads).



No no. You misunderstand. To create most of these things at the lower levels you need NON-necromancy spells as well. For instance, with the lungs, you have to remove the lungs (Skill Check), cast Shout, Sound Burst, or Shout, Greater over each one (depending on size), and then finally cast Animate Dead. Which means a Dread Necromancer can't create Floating Lungs without resorting to a magic item, or getting help from another caster.

I only realized this when responding to your earlier comment. It doesn't sit well with me, so I was jotting down an idea that when I re-write, I will make some sort of caviat about Dread Necromancers being allowed to spend spell slots of equivalent level to replicate Shout, Acid Arrow, etc etc but ONLY for purposes of preparing organs for turning into organ undead.
Wow... feel kinda offset for having missed that... :smalltongue:



So you are really strongly in favor of completely eliminating the secondary spells from the equation, even at the lower character levels?

Really not liking the idea. If you want to create it yourself, then go for it, but...
Nope, was just tossing out some standard methods. If for instance you needed special equipment costing X for N organ and Y for Z organ then it gives a little more control over the price as opposed to doubling or quadrupling. In the cases I've seen WoTC do this they'll also generally have the item recoverable at death, but that's your call.



Wow... that was before my time. I figure they will give us a lot of warning before they do that though... if it comes to that extreme, which I rather suspect it won't.

Yup, there was a big warning at the top by the "user CP" and such. That's why I was seriously thrown off when they changed their policy to deleting game threads 1 year after use and half the threads I was referencing for a game were lost...

Mind you they let you tell them so that they could mark your game to be saved, but if you missed the warning... :smalleek:


Eh, post it here if you don't have a better option... just try to avoid getting more of my threads locked please?
Ah, sorry bout that :smallbiggrin:


It is just so much work, for something I have gotten less and less support for as time has gone on.
Well, that's the grim truth of most things is that over time less people know what to say to them. I've run into this problem many times since with just about my every homebrew I'll introduce a whole new system. Sadly if you never brush it up, then it'll rarely see use even from you as DMs start deciding it's allot to dig through, ya know what I mean? :smallbiggrin: Mind you I think that's also part of the reason why this thread didn't get as much input is because it entails accepting a large group of undeads that whomever commenting on the spell likely feels are already sent in stone as they're on locked threads that have already gotten a decent bit of commentary :smalltongue:



Which is supposed to be utility?
Well while there is some overlap such as necrosis carnex and dark hearts), the animate dead ones have a tendency to be more heavy clunkers, whereas these tend to be more specialized to fulfill given rolls. as such I'd call thee "utility" in the sense that they all have a place performing a given sort of task, which would dissuade the use of clunkier undeads for the same purpose, and instead encourage the clunkier undeads to do more mindless brawn roles. (Hence why it makes me think it might crowd the one pool a bit much)


Ah, well, I think we are past the point where that works, but if that is what the mods can and need to do and it will keep the thread from being locked, then that works for me.
Honestly I did the mod-appeasing talk keeping in mind that giving a show that we were willing to abide, and that we loosely followed protocol in the end that they probably wouldn't care as much. Generally at this point they don't lock threads that often. You know, so long as there is actual dialog and not just a new post sitting all alone at the end of a thread. Still if you'd prefer I suppose I could delete my first post and just leave yours commenting to mine as the first after the gap. Then if you want to be super-paranoid we could edit to make it look like you requested feedback first :smalltongue: Just seems a bit silly in the end to me. the mods are generally pretty chill dudes even if they o toss around warnings every now and then for the small stuff.

DracoDei
2013-02-18, 12:31 PM
Ok, so you really didn't know about the auxiliary spells.

Adding another control pool makes this series/project more of a straight-up power increase necromancers.

drack
2013-02-18, 01:01 PM
Fare enough I suppose. Though even auxiliary make one stronger if for naught else then increasing the options available. :smallwink:

Now I'll admit I ay have accidentally fallen into a bit of powergaming in my time, and my specialty has ever been in necromancy, but when I think of say a level 5 necromancer, I see them as having anywhere's from 10 to 700 and some HD of followers depending more on components and corpses then anything else.

From that perspective offering for instance something like dark heart that heals in an area, created through the same spell that can create other undeads that heal through a touch is already adding power, and adding a separate pool in such a case is a smaller matter.

I suppose I was thinking of it more as being more an over the counter deal in giving this advantage to the necromancer, as well as to not have everything leading back to a pool that another (animate dead) spell created. It eventually turns the animate dead pool becoming a second primary pool if all necromancy leads to animate dead. I'm more of mind to do it through either another pool, or simply the caster's rebuke pool.

Then again that may just be reading between the WotC lines as to how they've added the animate dead pool, allowed the rebuke pool to be boosted through spells such as undead lieutenant, creating temporary charm effects on a mass scale such as with control undead, and controlling limited numbers of mindless undeads for extended periods of time with no save through command undead. I cannot recall another spell that directs the undeads to count against animate dead, though there are plenty as you see that enhance the necromancer themselves, leave the undeads free to be controlled through normal means such as through create undead, or as per awaken undead simply make them friendly. Perhaps were the spell to create ones friendly to the caster, or that cannot detect the caster instead then if you dislike making another pool?

Still I would emphasize that even without additional means to control it the undeads themselves do add to a necromancer's power :smallwink:

DracoDei
2013-02-18, 02:45 PM
Oh, introducing these types of undead into a campaign is a power increase, no question. However, by making it compete for a pre-existing resource, it isn't a "straight up" power increase.

I don't think there is anything stopping one from using Command Undead or Rebuking on them. You can do that for skeletons and zombies if you want to offload them from the Animate pool as I understand it. Granted you usually have better things to do with both of those than controlling lower HD undead (which most of these will be). Then again a heart from a Huge creature might be a large enough chunk of hit-dice to be worth off-loading.

drack
2013-02-18, 03:17 PM
Well Either way I suppose then. :smallconfused: