Non-lethal damage? I think not!

[Icestorm245]

This particular thing has bothered me since I began playing D&D. How on earth is an unarmed attack non-lethal damage? Why do you need to take a feat to make it lethal? If I punch someone enough times in the head, they die. Sure, it would take a lot longer than say a knife to the throat, but I still feel like punching someone hard enough could kill someone. In the nose, you can make the nose bone puncture the brain. In the chest, you can make ribs collapse around the lungs, puncturing them or blocking off air supply. Is there a rule that says enough non-lethal damage will actually result in death?

[Cog]

Is there a rule that says enough non-lethal damage will actually result in death?
Indirectly, yes; if you put somebody too far into the negatives, they won't heal that damage back before dying of thirst/starvation.

As for why the rules are that way... D&D is heroic fantasy. A bar brawl is an evening's entertainment, and real fighting is meant to be done between equipped warriors or mystical Eastern expats; a significant risk of actual death in the former isn't very compatible with that.

[gibbo88]

Huh, I would have figured that once below 0hp you just start taking the beating as lethal damage, apparently that is not the case.

[Ernir]

For what it's worth, the attacks of someone who is especially good at punching (has the Improved Unarmed Strike feat) aren't nonlethal.

You may also want to consider that damage in general is a lot less lethal in D&D than in real life. In D&D, you can burn a level 1 commoner to the point where he falls unconscious. He might die at that point, but it's not likely if someone is present to provide first aid, even if it is someone completely untrained using no tools. And that commoner will be perfectly fine in a few days. From burn wounds.


Is there a rule that says enough non-lethal damage will actually result in death?

No, there isn't.

[Jarvis]

There's nothing that says you can't coup degrace with nonlethal damage. It's still damage, right?

so just knock them out with nonlethal & coup de grace

[MesiDoomstalker]

There's nothing that says you can't coup degrace with nonlethal damage. It's still damage, right?

so just knock them out with nonlethal & coup de grace

As long as your using a weapon that can deal lethal damage to the target. Which should always be the case unless your attacking something with Regeneration. Coup de Grace is an auto-hit so biting a -4 penalty to do lethal with unarmed damage doesn't matter. And in this situation, if the damage doesn't kill them, and they succeed on their Fort save, just Coup de Grace them next round. And the next round. And the next round. Etc.

[Flickerdart]

For what it's worth, the attacks of someone who is especially good at punching (has the Improved Unarmed Strike feat) aren't nonlethal.

You may also want to consider that damage in general is a lot less lethal in D&D than in real life. In D&D, you can burn a level 1 commoner to the point where he falls unconscious. He might die at that point, but it's not likely if someone is present to provide first aid, even if it is someone completely untrained using no tools. And that commoner will be perfectly fine in a few days. From burn wounds.



No, there isn't.
A Commoner has, on average, 2 HP. Not even mentioning the damage from smoke, exposure to flames has a better than even chance of knocking him unconscious immediately, and he will be dead within eighteen seconds if he is not treated right away. So the struggle would look like this:
Round 1: Commoner catches fire, takes an average of 3.5 damage against his 2 HP and falls unconscious and dying. He takes another point of damage from failing to stabilize, and is now at -4.5 (10% chance to stabilize). The untrained healer arrives next to the Commoner and doesn't catch fire. It's a full round action to drag, so he can't do anything right now.
Round 2: The healer pulls the Commoner out of the flames. The Commoner burns some more and takes another point of damage from failing to stabilize, putting him at -8 (19% chance to stabilize).
Round 3: The healer can put out the fire (though I can't find the rules on this, so let's say it's just a standard action). The Commoner fails to stabilize (27% chance).
Round 4: The healer starts making Heal checks. He has a 30% chance of success. At the same time, the Commoner has another 10% chance not to screw up. Together, they have a 54% chance of stabilizing the Commoner, which means that the average case ends here. The Commoner has nearly died in the fire, and only the healer's immediate arrival saved him.

[Ernir]

A Commoner has, on average, 2 HP. Not even mentioning the damage from smoke, exposure to flames has a better than even chance of knocking him unconscious immediately, and he will be dead within eighteen seconds if he is not treated right away. So the struggle would look like this:
Round 1: Commoner catches fire, takes an average of 3.5 damage against his 2 HP and falls unconscious and dying. He takes another point of damage from failing to stabilize, and is now at -4.5 (10% chance to stabilize). The untrained healer arrives next to the Commoner and doesn't catch fire. It's a full round action to drag, so he can't do anything right now.
Round 2: The healer pulls the Commoner out of the flames. The Commoner burns some more and takes another point of damage from failing to stabilize, putting him at -8 (19% chance to stabilize).
Round 3: The healer can put out the fire (though I can't find the rules on this, so let's say it's just a standard action). The Commoner fails to stabilize (27% chance).
Round 4: The healer starts making Heal checks. He has a 30% chance of success. At the same time, the Commoner has another 10% chance not to screw up. Together, they have a 54% chance of stabilizing the Commoner, which means that the average case ends here. The Commoner has nearly died in the fire, and only the healer's immediate arrival saved him.

What I had in mind was touching the commoner with a torch (1 point of fire damage) until he starts dying, but OK. The chances of a commoner surviving being actually put on fire are less than stellar.

My point was more the last sentence, anyway. Less than two weeks after suffering life-threatening burns, the commoner is back in full health.

[Hbgplayer]

Huh, I always played that after 0 h.p., non-leathal damage dealt became lethal, so you could beat someone to death. I always assumed that it was in the PHB somewhere, but have never bothered to look it up.

[Ernir]

Huh, I always played that after 0 h.p., non-leathal damage dealt became lethal, so you could beat someone to death. I always assumed that it was in the PHB somewhere, but have never bothered to look it up.

The "take -4 to deal lethal damage" thing should work OK once the target is unconscious.

Personally, I think it has gotten silly enough when the nonlethal damage has exceeded twice the target's normal HP. :smalltongue:

[MesiDoomstalker]

The "take -4 to deal lethal damage" thing should work OK once the target is unconscious.

Personally, I think it has gotten silly enough when the nonlethal damage has exceeded twice the target's normal HP. :smalltongue:

I personally prefer to deal excessive Non-Lethal to all captives I want alive but don't need them concious. About 2 minutes of wailing on them and they will be out for a VERY long time. Bonus points if your a Rogue duel-wielding saps.

[Flickerdart]

I personally prefer to deal excessive Non-Lethal to all captives I want alive but don't need them concious. About 2 minutes of wailing on them and they will be out for a VERY long time. Bonus points if your a Rogue duel-wielding saps.
You'd need to be a pretty muscly Rogue to wield even one party member, never mind two. :smalltongue:

[MesiDoomstalker]

You'd need to be a pretty muscly Rogue to wield even one party member, never mind two. :smalltongue:

:smallconfused: :smalleek: :smallamused: :smallbiggrin: I lol'ed hard core.

[Hbgplayer]

You'd need to be a pretty muscly Rogue to wield even one party member, never mind two. :smalltongue:

Oh how I wish we could have animated emoticons, this post would be filled with fools rolling on the ground laughing, quite like my house currently.
:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

[Icestorm245]

The "take -4 to deal lethal damage" thing should work OK once the target is unconscious.

Personally, I think it has gotten silly enough when the nonlethal damage has exceeded twice the target's normal HP. :smalltongue:

That's what I mean, You can continuously punch someone until they're at -200 HP from non-lethal damage. I would say the amount of non-lethal damage someone can take would be -30, no more. And that's being generous.

[Eldan]

Huh, I would have figured that once below 0hp you just start taking the beating as lethal damage, apparently that is not the case.

Same here, I was sure I had read that rule somewhere.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I think I might have found out why the OP thought that after a certain point, Non-lethal turns into Lethal. Most conditions in the Enviroments (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm) section deal non-lethal and then start dealing lethal after non-lethal>HP. I can see why someone could get confused after reading that.

[Madcrafter]

I could have sworn that the nonlethal becoming lethal after unconsciousness was a rule as well. Although I also thought that nonlethal healed at 1 point per minute, instead of 1/CL/h, after looking it up in the SRD. Maybe that was a rule in 3.0?

Edit: Just checked, and it wasn't. I guess it was accidentally transposed from the environmental rules.

[Safety Sword]

You'd need to be a pretty muscly Rogue to wield even one party member, never mind two. :smalltongue:

Weapon Focus: Gnome.

If they're light enough does Weapon Finesse apply? :smallamused:

[MesiDoomstalker]

You'd need to be a pretty muscly Rogue to wield even one party member, never mind two. :smalltongue:


Weapon Focus: Gnome.

If they're light enough does Weapon Finesse apply? :smallamused:

Goliaths get a +4 to strength, Powerful Build, Rogue Sub levels and can take "Fling Ally" feat. I'd say, Gnome's count as light thrown weapons. :smallamused:

[Lord Bingo]

In Pathfinder (at least) non-lethal damage in excess of your current hitpoints become lethal. I could have sworn it worked the same way in 3.5, but now I am uncertain of it. In any event, I think the way it is handled in Pathfinder is good.

[Safety Sword]

Goliaths get a +4 to strength, Powerful Build, Rogue Sub levels and can take "Fling Ally" feat. I'd say, Gnome's count as light thrown weapons. :smallamused:

If the thrown gnome then throws a dagger at the same target you thew him at does that make him a splitting weapon? :smallbiggrin:

[MesiDoomstalker]

If the thrown gnome then throws a dagger at the same target you thew him at does that make him a splitting weapon? :smallbiggrin:

A Goliath Psychic Warrior/Wildshape Ranger/Master of Many Forms with Powerful Wildshape (gives you Powerful build while Wildshaped) wildshaped into a Storm Giant using Augmented Expansion to be Colossoal size and Fling Ally feat and TWF throws his 2 younger brothers who are built the same but without Augmented Expansion who each throw their twin daughters each built the same way without Expansion who throw their Half-Giant friends who throw their Thri-keen friends who throw 4 Gnomes each who also throw 2 daggers each.

Now lets total up the numbers thrown:

1 Storm Giant (C) => 2 Storm Giants (G) => 4 Storm Giants (H) => 8 Half-Giants (L) => 16 Thri-keens => 64 Gnomes => 128 daggers

If you want to be really cheesy, give them all the returning and splitting property. :smallbiggrin:

[Safety Sword]

A Goliath Psychic Warrior/Wildshape Ranger/Master of Many Forms with Powerful Wildshape (gives you Powerful build while Wildshaped) wildshaped into a Storm Giant using Augmented Expansion to be Colossoal size and Fling Ally feat and TWF throws his 2 younger brothers who are built the same but without Augmented Expansion who each throw their twin daughters each built the same way without Expansion who throw their Half-Giant friends who throw their Thri-keen friends who throw 4 Gnomes each who also throw 2 daggers each.

Now lets total up the numbers thrown:

1 Storm Giant (C) => 2 Storm Giants (G) => 4 Storm Giants (H) => 8 Half-Giants (L) => 16 Thri-keens => 64 Gnomes => 128 daggers

If you want to be really cheesy, give them all the returning and splitting property. :smallbiggrin:

Mental image WIN.

When I logged on today I had no idea that I was going to encounter a way to optimise thrown gnomes. One of the great joys of the GitP forums. :smallbiggrin:

[OracleofWuffing]

Indirectly, yes; if you put somebody too far into the negatives, they won't heal that damage back before dying of thirst/starvation.
Are you sure about that? Starvation and Thirst only fatigue and deal nonlethal damage.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Mental image WIN.

When I logged on today I had no idea that I was going to encounter a way to optimise thrown gnomes. One of the great joys of the GitP forums. :smallbiggrin:

I suggest Leadership chains to accopmlish this. It requires 95 allies all in one collossal sized square.


Are you sure about that? Starvation and Thirst only fatigue and deal nonlethal damage.

So, by RAW, you can never die of Starvation or Thirst, but rendered unconcious indefinatly till your forced fed and natural healing starts?

[Dr.Epic]

In the nose, you can make the nose bone puncture the brain. In the chest, you can make ribs collapse around the lungs, puncturing them or blocking off air supply.

You're assuming the average person can strike the body hard enough to do these things. Really, you can't compare getting punched to a steel knife puncturing the flesh causing bleeding or even hemorrhaging. Really, even people with an 18 strength striking you with one's fist can't compare to a sharpened, steel blade. You need proper training to turn a fist into a lethal weapon.

[OracleofWuffing]

So, by RAW, you can never die of Starvation or Thirst, but rendered unconcious indefinatly till your forced fed and natural healing starts?
I suppose you could be knocked unconscious long enough that you could die of old age, but don't shoot the messenger here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm):

Starvation And Thirst
Characters might find themselves without food or water and with no means to obtain them. In normal climates, Medium characters need at least a gallon of fluids and about a pound of decent food per day to avoid starvation. (Small characters need half as much.) In very hot climates, characters need two or three times as much water to avoid dehydration.

A character can go without water for 1 day plus a number of hours equal to his Constitution score. After this time, the character must make a Constitution check each hour (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage.

A character can go without food for 3 days, in growing discomfort. After this time, the character must make a Constitution check each day (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage.

Characters who have taken nonlethal damage from lack of food or water are fatigued. Nonlethal damage from thirst or starvation cannot be recovered until the character gets food or water, as needed—not even magic that restores hit points heals this damage.

[SirChuck]

You're assuming the average person can strike the body hard enough to do these things. Really, you can't compare getting punched to a steel knife puncturing the flesh causing bleeding or even hemorrhaging. Really, even people with an 18 strength striking you with one's fist can't compare to a sharpened, steel blade. You need proper training to turn a fist into a lethal weapon.

I as meaning to quote what you were quoting, but couldn't find the post.

"Originally Posted by Icestorm245
In the nose, you can make the nose bone puncture the brain. In the chest, you can make ribs collapse around the lungs, puncturing them or blocking off air supply."

Yes, and this is why you're required to take -4 to hit when trying to deal lethal damage with unarmed strike without the proper feat.

A sword or a dagger will deal heavy and potentially lethal damage no matter where you stick it. (Of course, some limitations apply, but come on.)

An unarmed blow, especially without any appropriate martial arts training (that is, Unarmed Strike feat), is only likely to do lethal damage in very few spots. Like if you punch someone really hard in the side of the head.

A regular person doesn't have any real training, and it won't stop them from throwing punches dealing non-lethal damage. You could still coup-de-grace people who are knocked out from said non-lethal damage with unarmed strike - by curbstomping them or something.

I don't see why this has to be so hard to understand.

[SirChuck]

I suppose you could be knocked unconscious long enough that you could die of old age, but don't shoot the messenger here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm):

I find it likely that there are no rules for starvation... I don't expect a whole lot of players starving, considering how easy it is to find food in this game - an untrained Survival check in the wilderness has a ~50% of feeding you. And that's without having any wisdom modifiers. So a commoner with 10 wisdom (average) and 0 Survival ranks still has decent chances of surviving in the wilderness.

As for NPCs, they don't need starvation rules. If the DM wills them to die from starvation, they will...

But I think it's very sensible for non-lethal damage to turn lethal at some point. Although with current rules, I still don't imagine that passing out from non-lethal damage from hunger somewhere in the middle of nowhere will let you survive for very long, either - there are plenty carnivorous animals and monsters out there who wouldn't mind free lunch.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/survival.htm

[Flickerdart]

I find it likely that there are no rules for starvation... I don't expect a whole lot of players starving, considering how easy it is to find food in this game - an untrained Survival check in the wilderness has a ~50% of feeding you. And that's without having any wisdom modifiers. So a commoner with 10 wisdom (average) and 0 Survival ranks still has decent chances of surviving in the wilderness.
Except he can just take 10, and thus be able to sustain himself forever on scavenging.

[OracleofWuffing]

I find it likely that there are no rules for starvation...
:smallconfused: Er... I quoted them, and linked to the corresponding place you'd find them online... If that's not enough for you, you can check it out on page 304 of the Dungeon Master's Guide, under "Starvation and Thirst."


But I think it's very sensible for non-lethal damage to turn lethal at some point. Although with current rules, I still don't imagine that passing out from non-lethal damage from hunger somewhere in the middle of nowhere will let you survive for very long, either - there are plenty carnivorous animals and monsters out there who wouldn't mind free lunch.
Nobody's saying it's unreasonable for nonlethal damage to turn lethal, just that someone who wrote the book decided you'd have to houserule when that point comes around. However, I think dying because something ate you is a different kind of death than dying from starvation.

[Gwendol]

You're assuming the average person can strike the body hard enough to do these things. Really, you can't compare getting punched to a steel knife puncturing the flesh causing bleeding or even hemorrhaging. Really, even people with an 18 strength striking you with one's fist can't compare to a sharpened, steel blade. You need proper training to turn a fist into a lethal weapon.

Based on...? Seriously, this is a sweeping generalization with no substance at all. Don't mix real life fighting with D&D; it doesn't compare well. Especially wrt unarmed strikes.

Someone with 18 strength can lift 300 pounds overhead (=136 kg). They don't even need to punch you; a well-placed shoulder check or tackle may cause serious injury (broken bones, dislocated joints, and the like). A punch to the chest is likely to cause heart failure, and punch to the head may severe the spinal cord. Hitting the side of the head causes hemorragies that presses against the brain, leading to loss of consciousness and eventually to asphyxiation. This is one of the most common causes of death from violence.

It is highly unlikely the perpetrator was "properly trained".

[hewhosaysfish]

A Goliath Psychic Warrior/Wildshape Ranger/Master of Many Forms with Powerful Wildshape (gives you Powerful build while Wildshaped) wildshaped into a Storm Giant using Augmented Expansion to be Colossoal size and Fling Ally feat and TWF throws his 2 younger brothers who are built the same but without Augmented Expansion who each throw their twin daughters each built the same way without Expansion who throw their Half-Giant friends who throw their Thri-keen friends who throw 4 Gnomes each who also throw 2 daggers each.

Now lets total up the numbers thrown:

1 Storm Giant (C) => 2 Storm Giants (G) => 4 Storm Giants (H) => 8 Half-Giants (L) => 16 Thri-keens => 64 Gnomes => 128 daggers

If you want to be really cheesy, give them all the returning and splitting property. :smallbiggrin:

Needs moar hecatoncheires (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#hecatoncheires).

[MesiDoomstalker]

Needs moar hecatoncheires (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#hecatoncheires).

I wish that had a picture. So replace the Goliath wildshaped into a storm giant without expansion and replace it with 4 Hecatoncheires. And repace the resulting 400 half giants with 400 expanded tri-Keens who throw 1600 regular tri-keens who throw 6400 compressed thri-keens who throw 25,200 compressed gnomes who throw 2 daggers each. That's 50,400 daggers. Better now?

[Andorax]

Last time I checked, it's simply a -4 penalty to hit to deal lethal damage with non-lethal weapons...exactly the same as the penalty to deal non-lethal damage with lethal weapons.

PHB 146:

You can use a weapn that deals nonlethal damage, including an unarmed strike, to deal lethal damage instead, but you take a -4 penalty on your attack roll because you have to strike only in the most vulnerable areas to inflict lethal damage.

Beating someone to death is only marginally harder than beating them into unconsciousness..and if you get them unconscious, beating them to death becomes trivially easy.

[Tyndmyr]

For what it's worth, the attacks of someone who is especially good at punching (has the Improved Unarmed Strike feat) aren't nonlethal.

You may also want to consider that damage in general is a lot less lethal in D&D than in real life. In D&D, you can burn a level 1 commoner to the point where he falls unconscious. He might die at that point, but it's not likely if someone is present to provide first aid, even if it is someone completely untrained using no tools. And that commoner will be perfectly fine in a few days. From burn wounds.


I lit myself on fire once, with the backblast of multiple rocket engines. Massive second and third degree burns over a goodly portion of my body. I was healed to the point where you couldn't see any mark in solidly under a month. I also did not go unconscious, though disabled is a fair assessment(0 hp).

Conclusion:
Regular fire for only six seconds is probably less than this.
Therefore, I have a helluva con modifier.
Given a decent hit die, a solid con bonus, improved toughness and slow, it's entirely possible that it might take me weeks to naturally heal from a particularly messy incident.

Sure, it isn't perfect, but it's not THAT crazy.

[Ravens_cry]

I argued with a DM to allow a non-leathal coup de grace, as a way of representing that, not-at-all-accurate-and-don't-try-this-at-home-kids, knock-out tap seen in stories since time immemorial.
It worked.
I do know it is not realistic in the slightest, but it does allow more options for a mundane non-lethal take down, something I approve of.
In fact, I am adding it as a house rule in any future games I run where it is thematic.