PF: What to Make

[Man With Dog]

Hiya Guys,

So my group has a new game starting up in a little while - i touched on it briefly in a different thread but it is going to be a pre-written called Kingmaker.

We are being given a 20 point buy (with permissions to gain points by lowering stats to 7 of course) but i really am stuck on what to create.
He is going to let us choose any of the classes we like including the newer Samurai and Ninja classes but as stated, i am really stuck here.

Not sure what kind of character i can make to be most effective with the 20pt buy system, doesnt leave me very high stats of course so thought i would ask some of you guys.

What do you suggest i make to play this game and any tips on worthwhile feats and stat allocation would be great.
Only one i dont want to play is a Ranger as am playing that now.

Hope you can help

[Retech]

Oh, I love Kingmaker. Such a great campaign. I would personally suggest a cleric, because it is so much fun to play a religious fanatic and become high cleric of your own city. It depends on how your DM runs it, but there is plenty of NPC interaction in the later part of the game, so social classes are good.

Alternatively paladin is pretty good as well.

[CigarPete]

20pt buy in Pathfinder is actually not bad, as PF goes off a 10 point base. 16,16,16,12,10,10 is a pretty viable character in most classes IMO. Even if you are running an 8 point base, 16,12,12,12,8,8 would still work. In any case, stats are only the beginning. Personally, I like to have at least one, if not two really low stats, just for RP purposes. Gives me something to base the character around.

In any case, you can play whatever you want, regardless of the stats. Obviously any T1/2 class is going to be less stat dependent than a T4 class. Cleric/Wizard/Sorcerer/Witch/Oracle really only need primary casting stat, maybe two if you want to count Con to keep them alive at low levels. Bard, Summoner, Druid or Rogue are all workable with that base. Paladin, Monk, Fighter or Ranger might be tough if you want them to be a multi-dimensional character.

It all depends on how you flesh out the character. Almost any stat set is possible to work with.

[Yora]

Make a human fighter. As good as any other character.

[Man With Dog]

20pt buy in Pathfinder is actually not bad, as PF goes off a 10 point base. 16,16,16,12,10,10 is a pretty viable character in most classes IMO. Even if you are running an 8 point base, 16,12,12,12,8,8 would still work. In any case, stats are only the beginning. Personally, I like to have at least one, if not two really low stats, just for RP purposes. Gives me something to base the character around.

In any case, you can play whatever you want, regardless of the stats. Obviously any T1/2 class is going to be less stat dependent than a T4 class. Cleric/Wizard/Sorcerer/Witch/Oracle really only need primary casting stat, maybe two if you want to count Con to keep them alive at low levels. Bard, Summoner, Druid or Rogue are all workable with that base. Paladin, Monk, Fighter or Ranger might be tough if you want them to be a multi-dimensional character.

It all depends on how you flesh out the character. Almost any stat set is possible to work with.

Doesnt the point buy system work alot different to how you just used it?

i was told and under the impression it worked such as +1pt to move up to +1 stat, then 2 points for a +2 stat and so forth but including the cost of the stats before. Therefore making it hard to have some really good stats. I would be more than happy with the 16, 16, 16 base you set up in any 3.5 or PF but i am pretty sure thats not how were generating stats.

[slugboy_73]

Here is how the point buy system works according to the pfsrd.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores

So if you wanted a 16 stat that would be 10 points taken from your 20 leaving you 10 points to distribute between the remaining 5 stats, barring any points from reducing other stats.

[grarrrg]

Make this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11748177&highlight=gundolon#post11748177).

It would be awesome (there is a less awesome, but more user-friendly build later in the thread)

[Paul H]

Hi

What to take depends on what your favoured style is. Are you a magic user, a tank, trapfinder?

Now more than ever, we play concepts. Classes just help define them.

Synthesist can help minimise physical stat issues - you replace them with you own.

Thanks
Paul H

[Man With Dog]

I think I am one of a few players who doesn't mind what class i play. I like fluff (as in little extra bits for rp stuff) and I only want to avoid being a generic healer - a healbot.

With that in mind, any other idea's?

[ThreeDSix]

I think I am one of a few players who doesn't mind what class i play. I like fluff (as in little extra bits for rp stuff) and I only want to avoid being a generic healer - a healbot.

With that in mind, any other idea's?

Factotum / Chameleon. Be whomever you want, doing whatever you want, whenever you want.
Plus the fluff can be awesome. :smallsmile:

[Man With Dog]

Factotum / Chameleon. Be whomever you want, doing whatever you want, whenever you want.
Plus the fluff can be awesome. :smallsmile:

Factotum in PF though?

[hex0]

Factotum in PF though?

I'm assuming this is PF only.

Since that is the case, I'm advocating Psychic Warrior/Warmind since PF Warmind advances your Psychic Warrior manifesting AND has full BAB.

[grarrrg]

How about a character concept I recently thought of called....

Stabby "Stab" McStabberson.

For a level 10 build
Alchemist 4, Rogue 6

Take the Vivisectionist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/vivisectionist) archetype for Alchemist, this trades away your Bombs, but gives you Sneak Attack progression instead.
You get 2 Discoveries from your Alchemist levels, use them to get 2 extra Arms (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo---alchemist-discoveries/vestigial-arm-ex) (or an Arm and a Tentacle, your choice). You also have a Mutagen which can boost your Str or Dex at the expense of a mental stat.

Take Multiweapon Fighting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/multiweapon-fighting-combat), carry around 4 light weapons. You can now make 4 attacks each round at your full Bab-minus-2.

Rogue 6 keeps up the Sneak Attack, and Rogue Talents are more useful for this build than Discoveries. Straight Rogue is fine, or you can give up Trapfinding to take either the Knife Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/knife-master) or Rake (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/rake) archetypes.
Knife Master upgrades your Sneak Attack to d8's as long as you are using a 'knife'-like weapon.
Rake allows you to Demoralize (shaken) an opponent by giving up Sneak Attack damage done.

Gang-up (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/gang-up-combat) is a decent feat to help you get Sneak Attacks.

The build is fairly stat light, you only need enough Int to use your Alchemist extracts, and you only need either Str OR Dex.
Multiweapon only has 13 Dex as a requirement (instead of the 15 Dex for Two-Weapon), this allows you to ignore it and pump Str for hitting/damaging. Con is always useful. Wis and Cha for flavor.

Half-Elf is a solid race choice, both Alchemist and Rogue can be 'favored' and you can trade in the Skill Focus bonus feat for +2 Will saves instead.

At low levels feel free to shuffle the levels around, for higher levels continue taking either Alchemist or Rogue.
You can also ignore the Rogue levels entirely, but, as stated before, Rogue Talents are generally more useful than Discoveries for a melee build.

Can also take Ninja levels in place of Rogue, this would give you double Poison Use, so feel free use one to take another Alchemist archetype (Chirurgeon, Preservationist, and Ragechemist can all be taken with Vivisectionist)

[Talentless]

Here is how the point buy system works according to the pfsrd.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores

So if you wanted a 16 stat that would be 10 points taken from your 20 leaving you 10 points to distribute between the remaining 5 stats, barring any points from reducing other stats.

which still allows for 16 14 14 10 10 10 before racial bonuses are added, which is a perfectly respectable array.

And depending on class, you have 1 or 2 dump stats.

Yielding 16 14 14 13 11 7 or 16 16 14 13 7 7. Pre racial.

Which are very acceptable and decent scores. (Tweaking to give 18(20 after race) for SAD classes is also available)

But you're right, I don't know where the other guy got 16 16 16 14 10 10 from.

[Man With Dog]

which still allows for 16 14 14 10 10 10 before racial bonuses are added, which is a perfectly respectable array.

And depending on class, you have 1 or 2 dump stats.

Yielding 16 14 14 13 11 7 or 16 16 14 13 7 7. Pre racial.

Which are very acceptable and decent scores. (Tweaking to give 18(20 after race) for SAD classes is also available)

But you're right, I don't know where the other guy got 16 16 16 14 10 10 from.


That is how I understood it, thankyou.

I must say I am tempted towards Barbarian - Gunslinger and Summoner.
I like the idea of the Synthesist Summoner but I reckon I could get suitable fluff from either of those classes and no one in our group has had the Gunslinger yet... then again Ninja has always interested me (as rubbish as they were 3.5) Are they useful now?

EDIT: Maybe even a Battle Cleric

[CigarPete]

which still allows for 16 14 14 10 10 10 before racial bonuses are added, which is a perfectly respectable array.

And depending on class, you have 1 or 2 dump stats.

Yielding 16 14 14 13 11 7 or 16 16 14 13 7 7. Pre racial.

Which are very acceptable and decent scores. (Tweaking to give 18(20 after race) for SAD classes is also available)

But you're right, I don't know where the other guy got 16 16 16 14 10 10 from.

I forgot they based point buy off that table. I generally roll stats. Either way, it's a workable array.

[grarrrg]

That is how I understood it, thankyou.

I must say I am tempted towards Barbarian - Gunslinger and Summoner.
I like the idea of the Synthesist Summoner but I reckon I could get suitable fluff from either of those classes and no one in our group has had the Gunslinger yet... then again Ninja has always interested me (as rubbish as they were 3.5) Are they useful now?

EDIT: Maybe even a Battle Cleric

Ok, now you're just taunting me.

See the build I posted above. It is a Gunslinger/Synthesist build built to abuse 'Leaping Shot Deed'.
And when I say 'abuse' I mean break it in half, then break it in half again, then glue it back together and break it in half one more time.

Leaping Shot Deed let's you spend a Grit to move and make attack with each of your firearms at full Bab, Synthesist grows extra arms, you carry around a personal armory of guns, Round 1 > Leaping Shot > barely anything left standing.

It is a very flexible build, you only 'need' Gunslinger 1/Synthesist 3 to start making it work. 20pt-buy is MORE than enough, given that Syntheists have their physicals replaced anyway.

[Paul H]

Hi

How about a Synthesist 2/Zen Archer xxxx?

Str 13 Dex 13 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 18 Cha 12

With 2 levels of Synthesist, that becomes:

Str 17 Dex 15 Con 15 Int Wis 18 Cha 12. Plus Darkvision & Evasion. +4 Nat AC.

Then go Zen Archer. Flurry of Bows, plus more.

Can make a build if needed.

Thanks
Paul H

[Man With Dog]

Any further idea's?

They dont even need to be what i mentioned - could be as random as Cavalier if you can make em sound less sucky!!

All idea's greatly received as always.

[Mustard]

I have to say, grarrrg, I like that rogue/vivisectionist build. I'm playing a knife master in a campaign now; I wish I had thought of that! I was looking for other things that advanced sneak attack for a possible combo, but somehow completely missed that. Do I feel foolish! Well, we're doing 15 point buy, so I doubt I'd have had the stats to make it work, anyway <rationalization>.

<Epiphany> Although... perhaps it's not too late, even with 10 INT. Grab a headband, enough for a level of formulas. I'd need to double check to see if this is feasible. Then all I need is to find a reason to experiment with dangerous chemicals in the campaign to fluff-justify it, and... why am I still here? I have planning to do! (Thank you!)

[The Gilded Duke]

With the whole travel / exploration thing, you do encounter a good amount of animals, vermin and magical beasts. I'd suggest something with good crowd control abilities versus those type of things. Either something that can cast illusions, or something with wild empathy.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/animal-speaker

Animal Speaker would give you both a crazy buffed version of Wild Empathy, and access to illusion spells. May eventually be able to qualify for http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/greater-wild-empathy

Plants or Vermin would be the best options. Most Fey and Lycanthropes have higher then 2 intelligence.

I'd personally go with Half Elf Animal Speaker Bard
Skill Focus Perform Wind
Spell Focus Illusion
Train Perform Wind and Perform String
Animal Friend: Wolf

At level 2 you can tie Wind to Versatile performance, letting you use it for diplomacy and handle animal all using your perform total. At level 3 you can use your Wind total to Wild Empathy as well. Spell focus makes your illusions harder to resist.

String lets you eventually qualify for the Masterpiece Legato Piece of the Infernal Bargain. By that point you will effectively have Summon Nature's Ally and Summon Planar Ally as abilities.

Perform Wind and Perform String aren't too great for using in combat, but nothing says you can't use another perform skill instead, such as perform sing or perform oratory. Only Countersong and Distraction actually take the perform roll into account.

By the way, Countersong is now amazing. It can be used to counter any Sonic or Language based effect. Your allies get a new saving throw each round, and use your perform result instead of their will save.

If using traits, one of the better ones is probably:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/social-traits/savant

Oh and the best part about playing a bard. You are a charisma focused character. Have fun being king.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

I am contemplating a Rogue (scout archetype, and in Knife Master too for more fun) build that focuses on daggers, and promises to be quite fun. He uses a single dagger with a buckler, (reflavored as a manica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manica_%28armguard%29).)

grab the trait "river Rat" for +1 damage with daggers, a spring loaded wrist sheath, some UMD and/or a level of wizard at some point, a wand bracer and a pile of wands, and you're set!

Snag the Shadow Strike feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shadow-strike-combat) and some Spring Attach goodness by level 8 to combine with Scout's Skirmish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/scout) and you will manage to deal sneak attack quite consistently, if you combine with judicious uses of surprise rounds and flanking.

IF you really wanted to, you could even go for feinting, though I have a feeling your charisma would be a bit low with 20 points...

With this method, you will always get off a sneak attack, you will not have as of a heavy feat tax (such as from TWF), and your character will be quite the survivor.

[grarrrg]

I have to say, grarrrg, I like that rogue/vivisectionist build.... why am I still here? I have planning to do! (Thank you!)

:smallcool:Just doing my job:smallcool:



Another possible option, one that is decent at low levels is the "Gun-Fu" build.
Start with 1 level of Gunslinger. Then take levels of Monk.
With 20 pt buy at level 1, with Dwarf as race you can have
Str 16
Dex 14
Con 14 (12 +2race)
Int 10
Wis 16 (14 +2race)
Cha 6 (8 -2race)

Str/Dex scores can be swapped if you want to focus more on Shooting.
Gunslinger can be taken up to level 5 (Dex-to-damage), but I wouldn't take more than that. All the rest go into Monk.
While your total AC will be 'medium' due to the lack of armor, it WILL be entirely Touch-AC.

[Mockingbird]

Gunslinger Alchemist with six arms.

The most amazing thing ever.

[grarrrg]

Gunslinger Alchemist with six arms.

The most amazing thing ever.

Close.
5 arms is the limit.
Well, technically 4 arms plus 1 tentacle is the limit (but the tentacle is just as good as a hand).

The Arm evolution can be taken twice, the Tentacle only once.


Now a Synthesist Gunslinger can have 1 arm for every evolution point....
(yes, technically 2 arms for every 2 evolution points, work with me...)

[Curious]

Close.
5 arms is the limit.
Well, technically 4 arms plus 1 tentacle is the limit (but the tentacle is just as good as a hand).

The Arm evolution can be taken twice, the Tentacle only once.


Now a Synthesist Gunslinger can have 1 arm for every evolution point....

Unrelated to guns, but very related to arms. I've got a build planned out for a Summoner (not a synthesist) where the Summoner himself never appears to the party, instead allowing his Eidolon to act as a party member. The rest of the party will not know the Eidolon is anything more than another beatstick character. I plan to buy my Eidolon pounce and as many arms as possible, wielding swords in each one, reflavoring the arm attacks as him simply being unbelievably fast. The Summoner will act as a kind of guardian angel, slapping occasional buffs and healing spells on the Eidolon at a distance.

By 8th level, counting iterative weapon attacks, he'll have 20 attacks.