I need help finding my kid gloves (Requesting aid for DMing for new players)

[Terumitsu]

As the title might suggest, I'm requesting tips and ideas for starting up a game with a few prospective players. Basically, a friend of mine has a few friends who seem to be interested in getting into the game and, him knowing that I've been playing for a while, has asked that I set up an adventure for them.

Now, I'm all for this as I always enjoy bringing new members into the fold... So to speak. However, for quite some time, I've been playing nothing but high-optimization games as both a player and a DM and I've gotten to where it's pretty much second nature to try and squeeze just about everything possible out of a build. Because of this, I am feeling somewhat less than confident in my abilities to tone it down a few notches.

What I plan on so far is to limit them initially to the core three (PHB, DMG, MM1) for this first go-around before letting them rush out and go wild with all the handbooks I have access to. I think it would be best if I start them at level 1 as well so they have a solid baseline for when they make characters at higher levels.

Other than that, I'm pretty sure I should tone down the usual amount of 'tactical thinking' I have the more intelligent monsters and foes do for a while.

That said, what do you all think I should be on the lookout for when DMing for this new group? Things I should expect from them/things I should watch out for and keep from doing/e.t.c.?

[BlueInc]

I believe someone on the boards said it best when they said "Trying to avoid balance issues by sticking with the Core rules is like trying to avoid bears by staying in the wilderness." You'll end up with one person playing a Druid with a Wolf (because that's what the Druid in the picture has), a Monk with Toughness (more HP is good, right?), and a Sorcerer with more Dex than Cha (Dex improves my AC and I can't wear armor).

I would recommend giving them a list of balanced tier 3-4 classes from across the books and an abbreviated list of decent feats. Try them on the Rogue, Ranger, Barbarian, Psychic Warrior, Beguiler, Factotum, Warlock, Warmage and maybe the ToB classes.

My preference for new players would be levels 2-3 to avoid a OHKO due to a crit; if you're willing to fudge die rolls, level 1 is fine. I'd recommend a few non-combat scenarios to start of the campaign to get them used to roleplaying.

[Terumitsu]

Okay that makes a lot more sense than what I was thinking. I felt that giving them access to everything off the bat would be overwhelming but perhaps by cherry picking classes and feats based on what they want to do and what role they want to play, I can steer them away from a lot of pitfalls.

Thank you for your input.

[Chained Birds]

I agree that limiting the group to core only maybe a little lacking on the appeal of a first game. Now granted, my first game was core only, but I believe my second time (playing a CW Samurai =]) was a lot more fun.
I believe you should at least allow all the Complete books (Minus Complete Psionic...), and maybe the Expanded Psionics Handbook (I learned Psionics first before ever trying my hand at Magic). Anything else might be a bit much for a new player.
I just know a lot of people who wouldn't mind playing a ninja or a warlock if they were given the option. Though you could just ask the players "So what do you actually want to play?" Then you look through the books, show them the class (Or best example of the concept), and have them play it.
Concerning level: 1-3 is always a good start. Even senoir players enjoy starting a game only using their witts and a bit of luck. And every Fighter will feel epic taking down an Orc with 1 blow, or soaking 10s of goblin attacks with high AC and HP.
Another idea: use PH2s feat swap thing so they can replace the horrible 1st timer/ 1st lvl feats they wanted, for stuff they need. Also if they decide against prestiging or want to prestige at the last second.

[Lord of Sporks]

I don't know. I think it might be a mistake to go beyond the core books for the first time out. I've run three campaigns with newbies, and I've always found one thing to be true: as long as they feel that its their character, they'll have fun. So what if they make a few balance mistakes? This is their first time out, they're bound to pick a bad feet or make an error in judgment assigning their ability scores. That's fine, they'll learn and do better next time. If you give them tons of advice and cherry picked classes and feats then they wont know why those feats and classes are better, and they will be more likely to feel that its your character, not theirs. It's like when you let someone whose never played a video game before try one out. They're slow, they make painful mistakes, and they don't understand basic concepts, but if you take the controller away from them then they will never learn or have any fun.

Keep it simple for the first time out, don't overwhelm them with information. Let them get a feel for the core classes so they can judge their worth against others later. In the end it doesn't matter if they have the most optimal characters. Whats important is that they are having fun, and that you give them an engaging adventure.

[peacenlove]

In my humble opinion:
Tome and battle and magic of incarnum (minus the soulborn) are perfect starter balance points for 3.5 edition. Add some classes that know their spell list by default (beguiler, duskblade, dread necromancer and so on) and your players won't be bogged down with choices and they will only need to learn tactics and teamwork.
They have great internal balance too (again minus the soulborn). Same could be said about Players handbook 2 (minus the celerity line of spells).

Keep the heavy guns in check. While ethergaunt wizards with uncanny forethought are as deadly as it comes, in the beginning use monsters from monster manual 3-5 (To my experience these are the most balanced ones with few glaring offenders).

[JaronK]

For what it's worth, the "core" classes I use for beginners are as follows:

Warblade
Crusader
Swordsage (including Unarmed Variant)
Binder
Warmage
Beguiler
Factotum
Dread Necromancer
Bard
Ranger (including Wild Shape Variant)
Warlock

None of these classes lock you into problematic builds (as a Fighter or Sorcerer might), they're all fun and flexible (well, the Warmage isn't that flexible, but blasting is fun), they all give room to grow, and most are pretty idiot proof (except maybe the Factotum). They cover all the same roles and character concepts as the core eleven, but at a nice balanced level.

Start out with tactically simple enemies, like animals and stupid giants. Then throw in one clever one sometimes (perhaps a Dread Necromancer who is a bit clever, but whose minions clearly aren't). Let them use their tactics to defeat enemies, and as they get better and level up, bring in smarter and more creative monsters and traps.

JaronK

[Chained Birds]

For what it's worth, the "core" classes I use for beginners are as follows:

Warblade
Crusader
Swordsage (including Unarmed Variant)
Binder
Warmage
Beguiler
Factotum
Dread Necromancer
Bard
Ranger (including Wild Shape Variant)
Warlock

None of these classes lock you into problematic builds (as a Fighter or Sorcerer might), they're all fun and flexible (well, the Warmage isn't that flexible, but blasting is fun), they all give room to grow, and most are pretty idiot proof (except maybe the Factotum). They cover all the same roles and character concepts as the core eleven, but at a nice balanced level.


I am curious on which class is the counterpart to its core version.

[Person_Man]

If your players are rusty or new on the rules, I have a simple house rule system that I call 3.75 D&D, which is basically a simplified version of the Tome of Battle writ large.

Each player describes the type of character they want to play.

You pick the classes for each player.

You assign each class a list of powers. (I like to start players with 6ish powers, and give them 1-2 more each time they gain a level). Powers are drawn from normal class abilities, spells, maneuvers, Feats, whatever you feel is appropriate. You then divide powers into four categories, Focus, Counter, Boost, or Strike.

Focus powers are continuous, but you can only have 1 on at any given time. Activating a Focus power is an Immediate Action. (Basically a Stance from Tome of Battle. But it's a great mechanic for buffs in general - Rage, Inspire Courage, Enlarge Person, Mage Armor, Bull's Strength, whatever).

Counter powers stop other things. Counterspell, Evasion, Disarm, ToB counter maneuvers, etc. (I also have a generic Counter called "Attack of Opportunity" which is triggered whenever an enemy moves out of a threatened square or uses a Power with a range. If it hits, it deals damage and stops the movement or Power). Activating a Counter is an Immediate Action.

Boost powers makes 1 attack more powerful. Activating a Boost power is a Move Action. This is where I like to put things like Sneak Attack and Smite Evil, but also Feats like Knock-Down (free Trip), Knockback (free Bull Rush), Scorpion's Grasp (free Grapple), etc.

A Strike is pretty much anything that involves an attack. Activating a Strike is a Standard Action.

Each round each player gets 1 Immediate Action, 1 Move Action, and 1 Standard Action. Immediate Actions are for activating Focus and Counter powers. A Move Action can be used to move, Charge twice your movement in a strait line over non-difficult terrain, or activate a Boost. Standard Actions can be used to activate Strikes, or if the player wants to do something creative that's not handled by a Power they currently have.

Put every Power on an index card, which succinctly describes everything the player needs to know to use that Power. (For example, Grapple: Boost. If your next Strike this round hits and deals damage, you and your enemy cannot Move. Your target may attempt an opposed Strength check once per round to end this effect. You may end this effect at any time).

Assign attributes and non-combat special abilities as you feel it's appropriate, giving everyone at least 1-2 different non-combat roles to fill (Trapfinding/thieving, Diplomacy/Bluff/Sense Motive, Track/Wild Empathy/Survival/Nature, etc). No Feats. No Skills. No equipment rules (Players are just assumed to have everything they need). No iterative attacks. Resolve attack rolls with d20 + character level + whatever attribute seems appropriate, and everything else with an opposed check of some sort.

After each game, if the player likes their class/powers, they keep them. If they don't, you help them pick/make new ones. If your players want more complexity, then ease them into 3.5 by adding Feats, Skills, etc. If your players want more simplicity, then ease them into 4 Ed.

[Safety Sword]

After each game, if the player likes their class/powers, they keep them. If they don't, you help them pick/make new ones. If your players want more complexity, then ease them into 3.5 by adding Feats, Skills, etc. If your players want more simplicity, then ease them into 4 Ed.

Before you got to this bit I was thinking, "But, that's 4th edition!"

For me the best thing to do with new players is to pre-generate characters of various archetypes and have a "scratch match" session. Introduce the rules in play by going to the forest to beat up some orcs.

In the long run a bit of familiarity with the system will go a long way.

Also, I know the "core is broken" stance is prevalent around here, but it truly is much simpler to have 3 books at the table rather than 30+. Choosing spells and feats especially is overwhelming when there are too many options for new players.

You actually have to put this into a game. So limit the options at first until the players are comfortable with the basics and then drop 27 more books on the table when you feel the group is ready to handle the amount of options that presents.

[JaronK]

I am curious on which class is the counterpart to its core version.

Barbarian -> Warblade, Swordsage (Focus on Tiger Claw)
Bard -> Bard
Cleric -> Crusader
Druid -> Wild Shape Ranger
Fighter -> Crusader, Warblade
Monk -> Unarmed Swordsage
Paladin -> Crusader
Ranger -> Ranger
Rogue -> Factotum, Beguiler
Sorcerer -> Beguiler, Warmage, Warlock, Dread Necromancer
Wizard -> Factotum, Beguiler, Warmage, Warlock, Dread Necromancer, Binder

...roughly.

JaronK

[Howler Dagger]

Also, I know the "core is broken" stance is prevalent around here, but it truly is much simpler to have 3 books at the table rather than 30+. Choosing spells and feats especially is overwhelming when there are too many options for new players.
But you only need 3 books: Tome of Battle, DMG, and a Netbook(for psionics).

Though I would say go with JaronKs list of classes.

[Person_Man]

Before you got to this bit I was thinking, "But, that's 4th edition!"

Yeah, in my personal opinion, 4E tends to be over simplified. Feats and magic items which add minor bonuses (and thus add no "fun value" to the game, while adding an additional book keeping chore). A very limited number of Powers using a limited set of game mechanics. Powers in general tend to be simplistic, which you trade in every level for a slightly different and slightly more powerful Power. And so on. Plenty of people like it, and I bear no umbrage against people who have fun playing a game. (I love chess, after all). But for players who like complexity and depth, it's not the ideal choice.

[Safety Sword]

Yeah, in my personal opinion, 4E tends to be over simplified. Feats and magic items which add minor bonuses (and thus add no "fun value" to the game, while adding an additional book keeping chore). A very limited number of Powers using a limited set of game mechanics. Powers in general tend to be simplistic, which you trade in every level for a slightly different and slightly more powerful Power. And so on. Plenty of people like it, and I bear no umbrage against people who have fun playing a game. (I love chess, after all). But for players who like complexity and depth, it's not the ideal choice.

I've played it a couple of times myself. It was OK at first, but I lacked interesting things to do in combat most of the time. Also, when I switched characters from a melee type to a caster and it felt the same, I knew it wasn't for me.

People who have never played 3.5E and don't know that there was a complex rich system to play with, probably find it fine. Good luck to them :smallbiggrin:

[sabelo2000]

The important thing to remember with new players is, it should be fun. If they're completely new, allow them to make mistakes and compensate for it with good ol' Rule Zero--don't forget it works both ways. If a player wants to do something, but that feat she took doesn't do EXACTLY that... heck, maybe let it slide, or find a way to integrate a skill check to make it work. For new players, the fun isn't building god-like characters that do everything; it's about building a fun character that can do awesome things.

Sure, in my last session there was NO WAY the 5th-level Paladin in adamantine full plate should have been able to jump onto the back of the giant scorpion. But why punish him for not knowing that? I assigned some DCs, had him roll some checks, and we all laughed when he failed anyway and got trampled into the sand.

That said, the core books and classes are just fine for games involving people that have never heard of tiers. You might have to scale back your BBEG builds, and your random encounters will be tired old monsters straight out of the MM with no modifications... but interesting SITUATIONS will still make for memorable stories, especially if this is your players' first experience.

Also, I'd recommend fudging or outright forgetting some of the more esoteric rules. I've never used the Drowning Rules or Suffocating Rules, and my group only recently learned how Grapple really works--and that was only because the Druid has a python as a companion. Anything you can do to reduce the time adding modifiers and increase the time splatting Goblins, is worth it to the players.

[Terumitsu]

Alright. Thank you all for your input!

I now feel as if I have a better idea on how to present them with a much more fun introduction to the game. I think I'll post again after the first session or so to let you all know how it went.

Again, thank you all for your kind advice.

[sabelo2000]

You're welcome, I'm glad you found help here.

[Dalek-K]

One thing I need to say (I'm on my phone so I didn't read everyone"s post yet) is that if you want to get them into the game then cheat your little butt off.

You roll 3 criticles in a row? No you rolled one crit one miss and one hit.

New players may view the game as winning and losing so if you stick to the direct rules of things yu might push them away

[Sudain]

Best advice for DMs to new players: "If you can describe it, I can tell you what you need to roll to do it."

Best advice for DMs: "If it's cool and makes the game fun, let them do it. If they are still interested after the first session; then slowly teach them the complexity of the rules."

I suggest handwaving some of the rules. On the first one I totally handwaved grapple checks - he just made a strength check and got it. He wanted to hack down a door with his sword, a couple strength checks and I told him how long it'd take. He wanted to cu-de-grae things with his [censored] - I let him. And then told him what color it came out and he's probably going to get a disease. In response he promptly lit the goo on fire. Make it FUN for them.

I also told them that I would be handwaving the complex stuff, and I would teach the rules to them over time. Once the level 5 fighter got an AC over 30 by using the mage and druid's buff spells they showed me they understood AC. So I congratulated them, and let them know I'll be designing encounters with saves next so they would get to learn how they worked.

[Leon]

You'll need a baby goat and a Sharp knife...


Start with the Core 3 Books, let people play what they like out of those 3 book even if you don't like the class personally and adapt the adventures that follow to suit the classes involved. Be flexible - if someone makes some choices that they don't like then make allowances to change (say a caster chooses some spells that sound good at the time but don't fit/work as they thought)

Find out what they players like or would possibly like as play type - maybe start with a light mix of combat/mystery/puzzles etc

Try some of the Published adventures on the Wizards site - like the Burning Plague and then if they like it build a world up and around from this base.

Once underway don't worry to much about the hard and fast rules - they are better as a guide to what can be done and if Mage wants to swing from the chandeliers to make a daring charge Fudge the rolls to suit it need be.

Leave the Optimal alone and let the players choose whether they take it as a Option later - it is after all not required to play and have fun.

[Slipperychicken]

Before my first session, my DM gave me a very simple practice quest/tutorial with RP, a combat, and no consequences in the actual campaign. Although I (more or less) had the basics down, it helped with understanding how the game was played. Maybe that sort of thing could help your players too? Hell, you could even have the "tutorial" in the first session, then have the PCs wake up to find it was just a dream.

[NOhara24]

Although everyone here has said a lot of things that make a ton of sense, I'll just give my experience on what happened in my current campaign. Since, when it started, no one really knew what they were doing.

All books are open for use, as long as WotC published them. All classes. Wide open. Everything. That being said, the common exploits (d2 crusader, pun-pun and the like) are off-limits. Our party consists of:

Planar Shepard(Druid)
Sovereign Speaker(Cleric)
Ruby Knight Vindicator(Crusader, Paladin)
I-Monk(Monk...derp.)
Invisible Blade(Rogue)
Cleric (Vow of Peace...etc.)

And it's all somehow remained fun and balanced to this point. Balance issues are taken care of simply by DM fiat. For the Druid, the DM created a plane that was so interesting, the Druid actually chose to bind himself there over everywhere else. Of course, since the DM has control over that plane, nothing ridiculous will happen as far as OP goes.

Of course, it's really still going to be a game of "keep up with the druid." Recognizing this, he's basically allowed infinite rebuilds for everyone at the cost of XP, depending on if it's a full rebuild, or just changing a couple feats around. The party's optimization level went from "none" at level 1, to basically full tilt at this point(level 9).

My point is this; they're new players. Let them learn and make mistakes on their own, but don't penalize them if they pick a bad feat for their class or build, but at the same time, give them a reason to go out and do research on their own.

[elvengunner69]

I just started a new group myself and we are only using the 'core 3' and our group is having a blast. I let them choose characters and races and we have a Barbarian, Cleric, Sorcerer and a Rogue (which is a good balance in my opinion) - first couple of sessions have been really good - our Barbarian's arse has been saved a few times by our Cleric but technically the player is really into the role (slash first ask questions later) so it fits perfectly with the story.

I don't think the core is broken by any means - especially if you are new to the game or coming back after a long time. I started them all at lvl 1 and have had (as someone mentioned above) a lot of roleplaying opportunities so they can get 'comfortable' in their roles. Again the barbarian is probably the most into it as his first reaction in roleplay is to intimidate which has made for some interesting reactions to him as you may imagine! But they all are embracing their roles - the Cleric sought out the local churches/temples, the rogue sought info in the Taverns and back alleys, the Barbarian found a legal fight (I even had the town they were in have a fight type competition using CON as your HP - and he ended up winning the competition) and the Sorcerer bought some potions and played a dice game (and lost most of his money!).

I think regardless of which books you use the imagination of the DM and how well you execute the 'story' will determine how much they enjoy the game vs using this book or that book or not using this book and that book. Over complicating it doesn't mean it will better it in my opinion.

[missmvicious]

Honestly, if they're noobs... put them in a 4e campaign. It's ridiculously oversimplified... like painfully oversimplified.

All that said, I've DM'd a few campaigns (always in 3.5), and actually prefer them over experienced players. Depending on what type of rookie, I determine how much hand holding I should do:

Type 1 (My favorite) "I don't know anything about D&D, but I can't wait to try it!"
These guys are usually way into it, and make the best role-players. First thing's first... keep it simple:
Resources:
Player's Handbook I
Monster Manual I
Dungeon Masters Guide I
Online Character Builder and Tools:
http://www.pathguy.com/cg35.htm
http://kobolds-keep.blogspot.com/2011/01/35-d-equipment-kits.html
http://www.ugo.com/games/superhero-generator-heromachine-2-5


Character: I strongly encourage them to build their own character, but am willing to help them build one. You could allow them to test the character with a practice battle against a common CR1, just to see if they like the character they built.

Setting: Always start a new guy off in a town or small city so they can get a feel for the role-playing and skill checks before you throw a monster at them. Give them an NPC friend right away. (Maybe someone who helps them escape a band of thugs, or an aristocrat who has heard of them before and wants to meet them, or an off-duty guard who has had too much to drink and become rather chatty, or [my personal fav because it moves the campaign along quickly] a merchant who needs to hire someone to guard his caravan but can't pay much.

DM Guidance: Eager 1st timers don't need much assistance to get into the story. Just give them a simple, obvious hook, and the rest will take care of itself, but keep the monsters simple: goblins, orcs, gnolls, giants, bugbears, and criminal humans work just fine and can be found in almost any climate and near almost any setting.

Type 2 "I've done some RPG's before, but never played D&D."
These guys can be a little sophomoric and can cause a little grief for the DM, but they can be quick learners who are ready for more intricate plot-lines after a few sessions.

Resources: Same as the first.

Character: I keep a hands off approach to developing the character. By forcing them to read up on how the character is built, they'll learn a lot more about the game. Always check the Char sheet afterwards to make sure the character isn't broken, and make them stick to the base races in the book... it couldn't hurt to regulate their alignment some so that the campaign goes smoothly, and they learn how to role-play outside of their normal character.

Setting: Heavily mapped. Anywhere works, but it has to be well-structured. These guys get can catch a sloppy DM from a mile away and lose confidence in the campaign quickly because of it. Get your facts straight. If you don't want to make maps, then just find some online. Also, constantly remind your PCs that this is a sandbox... they can go anywhere, do anything, smell, taste, touch, eat, break, steal, climb, or trip over anything that they would normally do in the real world. Make them explore the world you created and reward them with small boons when they do. They'll really come to appreciate the richness of the world you created and can quickly surprise you with how resourceful they can be with that patch of moss they collected off that boulder you described.

DM Guidance: You have to be kind of strong with these types. I text and chat with my Type 2 noobs on a regular basis to see where they're going with their character and what they want to do. They can be really surprising and inventive (which is great because it makes the game that much better) but they also try to break the game a lot... usually unintentionally. It's important to have certain things cleared up before session time so they don't get huffy during the campaign when they try to emulate a 10th level ability with a 1st level character and fail. You can throw a wide range of monsters at them, but try not to get to bizarre. Limit yourself to the kind of monster's you'd think the average Tolkein, Forgotten Realms, or DragonLance reader might know: fey, monstrous humanoids, the occasional low level demon, and any base race.

Type 3 "My friend plays in your campaign and (s)he talked me into it."
These guys can be (but aren't always) a real pain. The trick is not to invest too much into their character, since they usually drop out, and to keep a tight leash on them without them knowing it.

Resources:
Player's Handbook I

Character: Starting Package for each base race. I allow, but do not prefer, them to build their own character.

Setting: Keep it fairly simple and cliche: meet in a tavern, hired by a sorcerer, woke up in jail with your new comrades after a wild bar fight last night, or just in front of a dungeon ready to find some treasure, but don't make any other major changes based on their presence. A lot of times, because they drop out, you'll have to NPC them for a while, so the campaign really isn't for them anyway. Write them out of the campaign if they miss the first session, or if they miss 2 sessions in a row.

DM Guidance: Throw some special attention their way a couple times, and see if they bite. If they're willing to get into it, you'll know after a few attempts. The hooks should be painfully obvious and overly rewarding, but not so much that the other players get jealous... just enough to spark some energy in them, and then revert back to your normal stingy self once they get into the game. You can use most of the common monster's in MM1, but occasionally throw in a delightfully weird one in there. Make sure they always get to see a picture of the monster they are fighting so they can train their imaginations a little. Use a lot of flavor text when describing events, settings, and combat, and constantly remind them to explore the world and get into the story. Make them feel comfortable about asking you about the campaign (before or after the campaign only) so that you can help them build a little excitement about it. You can even drop some friendly "hints" their way without throwing out spoilers. I know that encourages meta-gaming, but if you also reming them to think about it from an in-game perspective, it will help them to think more like their character in the long run, and get them emotionally invested in the story and their character.

I know I'm long-winded... I'm sorry. But, I hope that helped.

[Dr_S]

I believe someone on the boards said it best when they said "Trying to avoid balance issues by sticking with the Core rules is like trying to avoid bears by staying in the wilderness."

There is another reason entirely to play core only with new players, In the last 2 years I've played campaigns with about 12 new players and there is a very serious case with all of them of "Information overload" which is why I would recommend core (especially for like feats and spells, but also for classes)

People who've played video game RPGs experience this slightly less, but even then unless they've played final fantasy tactics, they've been exposed to no more than like maybe 9-10 classes (WoW)

A few suggestions from personal experience:

Set aside you entire first meeting for making characters, walking people through the process, showing them how to do it properly, and allowing people to see how to make each other's characters. (i.e. that way if the fighter wants to make a caster next time, he'll know a little bit about picking spells from casters in your group etc.) This is a pain in the ass, but doing it properly the long hand-holding way once is far more beneficial than rushing through parts of the character creation.

When you are creating characters don't just ask people what class they want to play (especially if you ignore my suggestion to play core only) but rather what kind of character they want to be. Some people will want to be the shiny knight so then let them pick between Fighter or Palidan, clearly explain the differences (and any similar classes) and remember that just because their description uses a class name doesn't mean they know what the class entails (i.e. "I want to be a wise old wizard" you explain the differences between sorcerer and wizard and they might still go wizard, or like my first character they might be worried they won't know ahead of time what spells they need and want to play a spontaneous caster instead.)

Feat selection seems to be the hardest part for a lot of new players, (with core this is about half as much a problem but still can be.) so expect to help with that more or less every feat level.

Don't worry too much about balance, especially if you hand-hold during character creation. With your guidance they aren't likely to gimp themselves, and no matter how powerful they are they are going to be n00bs which means they won't be using their character to the full potential. Even if they have well optimized chars, your fighter will either power attack everything (including tiny criters with 1hp) or forget he took it, your rogues will attack anything with no regard to whether it's denied dex or flanked etc. and your spell casters will spend 98% of combat with their nose in the book trying to figure out which spell they should cast because they at first didn't remember what each did, but now can't figure out the difference because it's the wording confuses them, and then when you ask them the DC you'll lose another 2 mins to "uhhhh.... " *page flip* until someone who played a caster before reminds them for the 18th time how DC's for their class work.

A lot of the rest of my advice for new players is more for mixed groups (experienced and non)

New players tend to be more timid and can feel left out at times because they are waiting for their turn to participate. If you have an alpha personality or an especially timid person, take time to pause and ask them directly what they want to do/say/etc.

**Edit: When I say hand-holding them through the character creation process, don't tell them at any point what to take. Always give them a choice, however if they're picking feats for example, don't tell them what the best feat is, or even the best feat to build the type of character they describe, nor just leave them with the entire feat list and say "have at it", but pick say 3 feats and say "these 3 feats are all appropriate for the type of character you want, here are the benefits/drawbacks of each" and let them reason through... (basically give them choices but instead of letting them choose anything, present them with a smaller set of "these are good choices" so your caster is picking between spell focus or a metamagic feat or something instead of considering weapon finesse vs. power attack.)

A poster above reminded me when I reread the posts, that the most important thing is to make them feel like the character they are making is THEIR character and they've invested in it.**