Phylactery without being a lich?

[Venger]

A little background is necessary:

in my current campaign, I'm a factotum5/chamleon3 and my partner is a psionic rogue 8. the DM has given her a special ability that is roughly akin to the erudite's ability to learn new psionic powers except that it can be used on unwilling targets (he almost insists on it) due to having the spirit of a temporal filcher tethered to her soul as a pseudofamiliar. in exchange for feeding it the souls of psionic characters, it will enable her to learn some of their powers known. he likened the experience to zachary quinto's sylar on "heroes" in the early seasons. having its soul consumed will presumably kill the victim (we haven't had a chance to test it out yet) but even if it doesn't, they should be trivial to dispatch and then animate as skeletons to work in a mine my character is running (which also dodges the issues of the bodies being found, and the disposal of souls takes care of resurrection)

the temporal filcher may be satiated for a short period of time after feeding on souls, so if we were able to kill enough people before it got hungry again, we would have some spare souls to trade with the lower planes as detailed on p33 of BoVD and for my chameleon to use as dark craft xp for crafting evil items. storing the souls might be something of a problem since this chameleon's just wielding 6ths and trap the soul and soul bind are 9ths and Imprison Soul is a 7th, and I don't have any tricks in mind to cast them and don't know of any other ways to store them in bulk.

my partner raised the point that if our characters are going to deal with devils ( mine especially, since he's got a better diplomacy mod (+19) he'll do most of the talking) then we should take measures to protect our own souls, just in case since they'll be plump and juicy with evil deeds and tempting to the denizens of the deep.

thus, the title of the thread. the only 100% way of keeping your soul safe (that I know of) is to hide it away in a phylactery. chameleon lets me switch my free-floating feat to CWI if need be, and I could even use dark craft xp from souls to soften the 4800xp blow a little. even though BoVD and FCI and FCII talk about selling your soul to denizens of the lower planes fluffwise, there aren't really any rules for it crunchwise, and it's kind of what we're trying to avoid here, plus it'll put a damper on things when we try to elevate my guy to DR0 if his soul is beholden to somebody else.

I know going undead makes any character stronger, and lich is always a welcome addition, but my character's married, and his wife, the psionic rogue, isn't interested in taking lichloved, so that's out, besides, it wouldn't gel RPwise.

Is it possible to craft a phylactery without adding the lich template? there isn't anything in the lich rules that really says so and I don't want any of the other lich stuff and wouldn't try for walker in the wastes' canopic jars without trying to take levels in it, since no one would allow that.

if it is, what are good forms for a phylactery to take? where are good places to hide it? since I didn't go the sanctum spell route with my chameleon, he's capped at dual 6ths, so a password-protected demiplane of his own creation is out barring any unforeseen circumstances.

whether it's allowed or not, phylacteries can't be made on someone else's behalf, so what do I do to afford the psionic rogue a similar degree of protection? I can't really think of anything.

help would be appreciated

[Jack_Simth]

You've got UMD, right?

Get a few scrolls of (or hire a casting of) Clone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm), and regularly douse the result with a wand of Extended Gentle Respose (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gentleRepose.htm) (although you can probably do the Gentle Repose yourself). Expensive? Yes. Potentially worthwhile, though. As long as you have to be killed to harvest your soul, it goes to the clone as soon as you're killed, so no time to trap it.

[Flickerdart]

Just go Lich and then Polymorph back whenever your wife gets antsy.

[gooddragon1]

You've got UMD, right?

Get a few scrolls of (or hire a casting of) Clone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm), and regularly douse the result with a wand of Extended Gentle Respose (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gentleRepose.htm) (although you can probably do the Gentle Repose yourself). Expensive? Yes. Potentially worthwhile, though. As long as you have to be killed to harvest your soul, it goes to the clone as soon as you're killed, so no time to trap it.

More expensive option is a once per day command word clone creator with gentle repose continuous function. Cost savings take a while to be realized but requires no intervention at all.

15,000 gp for the gentle repose component
291,000 gp for the clone component

If you want to be truly lazy and not bother making them separate...
313,500 gp market price
156,750 gp materials cost
12,540 XP cost
314 days to create

[Venger]

You've got UMD, right?

Get a few scrolls of (or hire a casting of) Clone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm), and regularly douse the result with a wand of Extended Gentle Respose (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gentleRepose.htm) (although you can probably do the Gentle Repose yourself). Expensive? Yes. Potentially worthwhile, though. As long as you have to be killed to harvest your soul, it goes to the clone as soon as you're killed, so no time to trap it.

Yep, all good chameleons have UMD. yeah, I can gentle repose myself, especially since I'll only need to cast it about once every week or two so I should be able to spare the slot to go down to the lab and see what's on the slab. (possibly shivering with antici-pation) at least that often, to check that my clone body is in good shape and that no one's come to mess with it.

that level loss is a bummer though. that's why I wanted the phylactery. any way to negate the level loss from clone?

what's the timing on this? if someone gets me with "trap the soul" using the sympathy version, then does clone activate first?

[Jack_Simth]

that level loss is a bummer though. that's why I wanted the phylactery. any way to negate the level loss from clone?

Yes. It's called a Thought Bottle. Most games ban it outright.

what's the timing on this? if someone gets me with "trap the soul" using the sympathy version, then does clone activate first?The Trap the Soul spell is an interesting one, in that it never actually kills you, so your Clone won't function. Sorry. Ditto for Flesh to Stone and a few other effects. This is D&D. There is no "perfect defense" (unless you count TDK), which is what you're after.

[subject42]

Could you use some variation on the Psychic save game trick?

[Venger]

Just go Lich and then Polymorph back whenever your wife gets antsy.

can you do that? would you lose the other lich abilities? I know that you can't use polymorph to turn into something with a template, but can you do the opposite? also don't get PaO since I can only cast 6th lvl spells. would this make me like I was before I did lich things except the phylactery?



More expensive option is a once per day command word clone creator with gentle repose continuous function. Cost savings take a while to be realized but requires no intervention at all.

15,000 gp for the gentle repose component
291,000 gp for the clone component

If you want to be truly lazy and not bother making them separate...
313,500 gp market price
156,750 gp materials cost
12,540 XP cost
314 days to create

what is this? the nomenclature you used is unfamiliar to me. where are the rules for something like this? could you explain how it works?

[Venger]

Yes. It's called a Thought Bottle. Most games ban it outright.
The Trap the Soul spell is an interesting one, in that it never actually kills you, so your Clone won't function. Sorry. Ditto for Flesh to Stone and a few other effects. This is D&D. There is no "perfect defense" (unless you count TDK), which is what you're after.

I am afraid the thought bottle has been outright banned. I did think of that. what's TDK?

[Venger]

Could you use some variation on the Psychic save game trick?

could you explain what that is, please? my character can't manifest any psionic powers, and since my partner has to pick them up piecemeal, archivist/wizard style and hasn't started yet, her arsenal kinda depends on the gm's generosity

[sreservoir]

astral seed? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralSeed.htm)

[subject42]

could you explain what that is, please? my character can't manifest any psionic powers, and since my partner has to pick them up piecemeal, archivist/wizard style and hasn't started yet, her arsenal kinda depends on the gm's generosity

Here's a much better explanation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146470) than I could give you on my own.

There's also a thread on this board called "The Dream of Metal" that uses similar processes, but I think it requires that you be a lich or an Elan.

[gooddragon1]

Creating Custom Magic Items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm)

You need both the gentle repose and clone spell on your spell list and must have the caster level to cast them. You need the craft wondrous item feat. You need:

156,750 gp to cover the materials cost
12,540 XP to cover the XP cost
314 days worth of time

With these 3 things you can make a custom magic item that on a voice command will create a clone of you or whoever else said the command word. It will function in this manner once per day (try not to die more than that). Furthermore, it will keep the clone of you from decomposing with gentle repose. Lastly, it will require no intervention on your part other than remembering to say the command word to make a new clone of you after you die and have no material component costs thereafter as they will be worked into the price. This thing would effectively be a phylactery. If you combined it with a thought bottle... it would be a phylactery on steroids (you come back much faster than a lich with phylactery does). Even with one of these and thought bottle you could just keep coming back at your enemies over and over.

[Venger]

astral seed? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralSeed.htm)

oh, the old psionic sandwich trick! as much fun as that would be, I'm playing as a chameleon and don't have a way of manifesting psionic powers, much less an 8th level shaper only one. I had always wanted to try that in a game though.



Here's a much better explanation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146470) than I could give you on my own.

There's also a thread on this board called "The Dream of Metal" that uses similar processes, but I think it requires that you be a lich or an Elan.

thank you for the explanation of the psionic save game trick, that's amazing. unfortunately, the psionic rogue is the closest thing we have to a full manifester and she doesn't, at the moment, have any of those powers, nor does she have a psicrystal.



Creating Custom Magic Items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm)

You need both the gentle repose and clone spell on your spell list and must have the caster level to cast them. You need the craft wondrous item feat. You need:

156,750 gp to cover the materials cost
12,540 XP to cover the XP cost
314 days worth of time

With these 3 things you can make a custom magic item that on a voice command will create a clone of you or whoever else said the command word. It will function in this manner once per day (try not to die more than that). Furthermore, it will keep the clone of you from decomposing with gentle repose. Lastly, it will require no intervention on your part other than remembering to say the command word to make a new clone of you after you die and have no material component costs thereafter as they will be worked into the price. This thing would effectively be a phylactery. If you combined it with a thought bottle... it would be a phylactery on steroids (you come back much faster than a lich with phylactery does). Even with one of these and thought bottle you could just keep coming back at your enemies over and over.
thank you for doing all that math for me, I really appreciate it. while the cost is somewhat daunting, (correct me if I'm wrong) but could it be cut down by putting gentle repose into the machine at the minimum CL of 3 since it autorecasts itself whenever needed anyway?

I can switch my free floating feat to CWI, but I don't know if I can get "clone" on my spell list. is there any caster in the game, arcane, or divine, that gets it at spell level 6 or less? I suspect the answer is no, but I can keep my fingers crossed.

afraid thought bottle's out.

I was trying to figure out the pricing info for custom magic items and I seem to be a bit lost. since you suggested a command activated word, I use spell lvl x caster lvl x 1800, which in this case would be 8x15x1800= 216000. there's a difference of 75000 from your 291000, what am I leaving out?

same for gentle repose, I got 2x3x1800=10800, again off from the 15000 you said it cost. there's no costly material component for this one.

I will do my best not to die more than once every in-game day. that said though, I think I'm somewhat unlikely to die even 50 times in the course of this campaign. would it be prudent to make this a 50-charges item like a wand? then the price modifier would only be 750 instead of 1800 and (by my calculations) the price'd be 8x15x750=90000 which is a little more managable.

since putting them in 2 items would save money, I think I'll probably do that and just point the gentle repose machine at the clone machine. I figure I'll fluff it as a snow white coffin or something, or one of those cryogenics tanks that the 30s movies always had in them.

[gooddragon1]

oh, the old psionic sandwich trick! as much fun as that would be, I'm playing as a chameleon and don't have a way of manifesting psionic powers, much less an 8th level shaper only one. I had always wanted to try that in a game though.




thank you for the explanation of the psionic save game trick, that's amazing. unfortunately, the psionic rogue is the closest thing we have to a full manifester and she doesn't, at the moment, have any of those powers, nor does she have a psicrystal.



thank you for doing all that math for me, I really appreciate it. while the cost is somewhat daunting, (correct me if I'm wrong) but could it be cut down by putting gentle repose into the machine at the minimum CL of 3 since it autorecasts itself whenever needed anyway?

I can switch my free floating feat to CWI, but I don't know if I can get "clone" on my spell list. is there any caster in the game, arcane, or divine, that gets it at spell level 6 or less? I suspect the answer is no, but I can keep my fingers crossed.

afraid thought bottle's out.

I was trying to figure out the pricing info for custom magic items and I seem to be a bit lost. since you suggested a command activated word, I use spell lvl x caster lvl x 1800, which in this case would be 8x15x1800= 216000. there's a difference of 75000 from your 291000, what am I leaving out?

same for gentle repose, I got 2x3x1800=10800, again off from the 15000 you said it cost. there's no costly material component for this one.

I will do my best not to die more than once every in-game day. that said though, I think I'm somewhat unlikely to die even 50 times in the course of this campaign. would it be prudent to make this a 50-charges item like a wand? then the price modifier would only be 750 instead of 1800 and (by my calculations) the price'd be 8x15x750=90000 which is a little more managable.

since putting them in 2 items would save money, I think I'll probably do that and just point the gentle repose machine at the clone machine. I figure I'll fluff it as a snow white coffin or something, or one of those cryogenics tanks that the 30s movies always had in them.

If you're that confident you can make it once per week instead of per day. I'd say that would cut down on the clone cost significantly (by 7 in fact).

[Jack_Simth]

I am afraid the thought bottle has been outright banned. I did think of that. what's TDK?
In this specific case, it's referring to Pun-Pun. That ________ Kobold, and is used as the exception to the "there is no perfect defense" statement.

[Venger]

If you're that confident you can make it once per week instead of per day. I'd say that would cut down on the clone cost significantly (by 7 in fact).

would this make the clone bodies grow faster than normal or would they still take 2d4 months?



In this specific case, it's referring to Pun-Pun. That ________ Kobold, and is used as the exception to the "there is no perfect defense" statement.
okay. the statement still holds true though, even pun-pun has his kryptonite in the omniscifier

[Flickerdart]

okay. the statement still holds true though, even pun-pun has his kryptonite in the omniscifier
Not since Pun-Pun was moved up to 1st level.

[gooddragon1]

would this make the clone bodies grow faster than normal or would they still take 2d4 months?

okay. the statement still holds true though, even pun-pun has his kryptonite in the omniscifier

You could probably negotiate with your DM to make it take less time but that might increase the cost.

[Chained Birds]

Cast Clone or another cloning type spell, then slather the thing with good ol' Quintessense (Shaper Power). Never have to gentel repose ever again.

[Jack_Simth]

Cast Clone or another cloning type spell, then slather the thing with good ol' Quintessense (Shaper Power). Never have to gentel repose ever again.
... and when the clone activates, you're stuck in time, and never need to worry about anything ever again! Well, until someone washes off the quintessence....

[Reaver225]

Contingent spell of create water if you detect soul in the clone?

[Jack_Simth]

Contingent spell of create water if you detect soul in the clone?Hmm... would need to be a spell trap, using Deathwatch to trigger... could be feasible. Just make sure you use *enough* water; you don't want to deal with the 'partial contact' clause.

[nyarlathotep]

The 3.0 spell hide life from Tome and Blood might count, depending on whether you consider the phrase life force and soul to be one and the same. Hide life moves your lifeforce to a small part of your body (usually) a finger which is then cut off and as long as that body part survives you cannot die. Also the duration is instantaneous and thus cannot be dispelled.

[Venger]

Cast Clone or another cloning type spell, then slather the thing with good ol' Quintessense (Shaper Power). Never have to gentel repose ever again.

very sneaky! I like it. I'll have my partner put this on our short list if she finds anyone's brain to pick that has this as a power. how many manifestations do you think before there'll be enough to coat my character and fully submerge him so his cloned body doesn't take damage? (he's 5'7" and 180lbs) it's not like his clone body will mind being spam in a can until I need it, so the bare minimum will do.



Hmm... would need to be a spell trap, using Deathwatch to trigger... could be feasible. Just make sure you use *enough* water; you don't want to deal with the 'partial contact' clause.

the partial contact damage thing could be a bit of a headache, but I do have a familiar who would presumably know that I was really alive and be able to tell my partner to come wash me off.

at least that's how I think it works. I know the empathic whatever from the familiar can't be used for telepathic communication is sorta vague, but it should be at least good enough for him to know if I'm alive or dead, right?

[Venger]

The 3.0 spell hide life from Tome and Blood might count, depending on whether you consider the phrase life force and soul to be one and the same. Hide life moves your lifeforce to a small part of your body (usually) a finger which is then cut off and as long as that body part survives you cannot die. Also the duration is instantaneous and thus cannot be dispelled.

I had been looking everywhere for this spell after reading a thread about a party fighting a terrasque with 20 levels of wizard, but I couldn't find it anywhere. at least now I know why. Since this game does have spells that deal specifically with souls and they use the word soul, like in the BoVD stuff, I don't think that interpretation would fly, but I do like the way you think. this is a neat way to take care of being vanquished any other way once the soul is taken care of though. pop that toe in a vial of quintessence, put it in a room with a zillion other toes in vials of quintessence and that's that.

since "nondetection" can't be permanencied, if I were to take a 1 level dip in master of masks and pick "faceless" as one (gives nondetection) would I be able to wear it and have it affect my toe since it is part of me? or since we are separated, would I have to have the toe wear the mask? could i make it a spare? I know no other character, not even a master of masks can use my masks, but the toe is me, so it should be able to. will this stop enemies from finding it with divination spells? (or at least put a damper on it)

instantaneous duration means it can't be dispelled. awesome. permanent is vulnerable to that though, right?

that was one question I had about lichdom. if I did go lich and PaO'd back into being human again, what would happen? would I be the same as I was before I got the template? would my abilities go back down and would I lose the DR? more importantly, would my CR go back down? it'd be awfully hard to keep up xpwise after losing 4800xp alone, much less being +2CL than the rest of the party.

if I PaO'd into myself as a human, could that spell be dispelled? would anyone even know it was active since I'd use it right afterwards? if it were dispelled, what exactly would happen? would he get lich abilities back?

I only ask because I can't cast PaO since chameleons only get 6ths, so I'd need to buy a scroll, which would cost a lot of money. if i can avoid doing this more than once, I'd like to

[Chilingsworth]

More expensive option is a once per day command word clone creator with gentle repose continuous function. Cost savings take a while to be realized but requires no intervention at all.

15,000 gp for the gentle repose component
291,000 gp for the clone component

If you want to be truly lazy and not bother making them separate...
313,500 gp market price
156,750 gp materials cost
12,540 XP cost
314 days to create

the second option wouldn't work: any item over 200,000 gp in value (not including mundane value components such as special materials) is an epic item, barring being epic and taking the requisite epic crafting feats, a character can't make them.

The first should be doable, though, assuming a supportive DM.

[Venger]

the second option wouldn't work: any item over 200,000 gp in value (not including mundane value components such as special materials) is an epic item, barring being epic and taking the requisite epic crafting feats, a character can't make them.

The first should be doable, though, assuming a supportive DM.

oh, that's right, I forgot about that addendum, thanks for pointing it out.

could you explain the formula you used to get those numbers though?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm

using this I wasn't able to arrive at the same numbers.

[Psyren]

RAW, Quintessence has to be "scraped off," so I doubt Create Water would cut it. (It's most likely insoluble anyway.)

Worse, it has to be "manually" removed, so by RAW no automatic method or trap will work. You'll need someone or something physically there to liberate you.

Now a Gentle Repose trap or something - that would keep the body fresh, and will do nothing once you're alive again.