[PF] Advanced Race Guide, what should Paizo do?

[Aemoh87]

With all the hubub about Advanced Race Guide... why do we assume players will be using this? It sounds like a way for DMs to build races for their custom world. Yeah there is alittle politicing in it, but really it's not meant to be touched by the players.

I guess some guy made an awesome race for sorcs and it was better than any other race for sorcs... Shouldn't it be? It was a race made to be a sorc! If this book stays in the hands of the DM it is not the game breaker people are making it out to be.

I guess we just forgot that not everything was made for PC abuse (see druid wildshape into...). So what is it playground, should Paizo build to fear PC abuse or write this book as if it were only going to be in the hands of the DM?

[Drothmal]

I agree that the design should not be tailored to the worst of min-maxing

But, on the other hand, there is absolutely no part in the ARG that claims to be "for DM only"

Hence, during the play-test of a product that, without specific DM banning, will be available for players, errors/exploits should be pointed out

[Aemoh87]

I agree that the design should not be tailored to the worst of min-maxing

But, on the other hand, there is absolutely no part in the ARG that claims to be "for DM only"

Hence, during the play-test of a product that, without specific DM banning, will be available for players, errors/exploits should be pointed out

At the same time, where does it say that players get to design there own race? Clearly the intent is for world builders, not for players. Sometimes players are involved in world building. Maybe at one point in game they will create their own race or something similar. But really, at no point in time ever has there been a balanced custom race system nor will there ever be... if it's in the hands of the players no matter how much play testing is done, they will build a race to suite their class/build and then core races will be forgotten/laughed at.

I guess my question is... do we want to see the death of core races or not?

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I see it as similar to the racial rules in Skills & Powers. Leave the players alone to go nuts with them and they'll be broken quickly, but use them with a little supervision and restraint and you'll end up with a much more interesting universe.

Frankly, I'd rather have the Advanced Player's Guide rules for Elves than having six different subspecies of Elf, and the Advanced Race Guide seems like it could easily function as an expansion of those rules. I'd still prefer some option for expanding racial abilities-- again, like Skills & Powers-- but this is a good start.

[Rising Phoenix]

The general answer to players who ask me to use the this book to make races will be no.

However, if they want something for purely roleplaying/background with them I won't shoot right away and I will be supervising the entire process.

[Prime32]

Even if it's not meant for players, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be balanced. :smallconfused:

[CTrees]

What really needs to happen is quite simple: More threads need to be created. No, that's not enough. That's not either. We must not rest until EVERY THREAD IS ABOUT THE ADVANCED RACE GUIDE!

More on topic, and less sarcastically, my opinions haven't changed from the first thread, or the second, or the third. It's a fun idea, except in specific cases it should not be given to players, and they need serious work on the numbers (see: fudging things so all the core races work out to 10pts each, despite things like Skilled making no sense at their costs).

[Midnight_v]

Even if it's not meant for players, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be balanced. :smallconfused:
+1 and pass the amunition...

[Anarchy_Kanya]

BTW. Do I have to be a Paizo subscriber or something to get access to this rules? Because I couldn't find it and would like to take a peek.


Even if it's not meant for players, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be balanced. :smallconfused:
Yeah, but if it's not in player hands, it doesn't have to, because really, a DM doesn't need official rules to create broken things, or screw his players either way. And in this way DMs have at least a guideline.

Although the same could be said about custom item creation, if you think about it... :smallannoyed:
So yeah, I've changed my mind. It should be definitely balanced. :smallamused:

[CTrees]

BTW. Do I have to be a Paizo subscriber or something to get access to this rules? Because I couldn't find it and would like to take a peek.


Nope. You have to create an account over at paizo.com, but it's free.

EDIT: Link (http://paizo.com/store/downloads/v5748btpy8osf)

[grarrrg]

What really needs to happen is quite simple: More threads need to be created. No, that's not enough. That's not either. We must not rest until EVERY THREAD IS ABOUT THE ADVANCED RACE GUIDE!

More on topic, and less sarcastically, my opinions haven't changed from the first thread, or the second, or the third. It's a fun idea, except in specific cases it should not be given to players, and they need serious work on the numbers (see: fudging things so all the core races work out to 10pts each, despite things like Skilled making no sense at their costs).

*ahem*
So I want to play a Monk, but no Tome of Battle, it's the worst/best thing ever, so my DM/I refuse to use it, so to help squeeze some extra optimiztion (I'm looking to bump it up a Tier), I've decided to design my own race using the Advanced Race Guide. And it's for an E6 game, what is E6? And it's taking place in the World's Largest Dungeon.
Is there a handbook for that?


Oh, and before I forget, Why are Sorcerers Tier 2, they are moar betterer than Wizards. Psionics ruined the game forever. I don't see why the Truenamer is so bad. Psionics are the best thing ever and need more support. kthxbai

[CTrees]

To give you a serious answer:

First, my problem was this:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217660
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217891
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218432

Those threads, and this one, just seem a little redundant. I know I try to check if there's a current thread before starting a new one (in forums in general - I know I'm still new here), and... it just seems reasonable.

Second, on the monk: let me start by saying the ARG is PF, ToB isn't in PF, but certain monk archetypes are actually pretty darn decent in PF. If this is being back-ported into 3.5, well, why not bring in other PF material, like the archetypes that make the monk somewhat reasonable? Also, see my caveat about "except in specific circumstances." In a sitatuation like that, if the player created race was reasonable and done for a specific need, that's when I'd consider it as a DM. There's a *reason* I keep including words and phrases in my posts that allow for corner cases and exception; I don't understand how people keep missing that. I don't get the handbook comment - that's obviously too specific a situation (WLD and all) for a handbook, but requesting/creating one based on the ARG would actually be a reasonable new thread.

Third, I just don't understand the goal of your second paragraph.

Fourth, I was a little harsh in my initial post, and for that I'm sorry (I blame work being ridiculous in the "why is everyone else so stupid/why do I have to fix all the problems they create? way). I overreacted, and was far more sarcastic than I ought to have been. However, it still seems that a simple search (or even just looking at the first page) would have shown a reasonable place to post this. *shrug*

[grarrrg]

*shrug*

:smallconfused:
I was attempting to cram every "spam thread" topic into one post.
It was an attempt at humor.
It apparently failed.
I'll be going now.

[Aemoh87]

Yeah it's a talked about issue but how often do we get to input on game rules. Second, I would love for it to be more balanced and less political. I wouldn't be scared off from one base race just because it is a few points lower than another.

I was hoping for some info like the Races of ??? books from 3.5. Ways to expand on your characters race in both fluff and mechanics. But right now all the talk is on custom races.

[Ashram]

Remember, the first half of the ARG is new racial stuff for all of the seven core races, and then a handful of the advanced races (Aasimar, tiefling, the four geniekin, and so on). The new race building rules aren't the entire star of the show, despite minmaxers salivating over them.

[GoatBoy]

We have overpowered combinations of feats, items, classes, class features, and spells. Why not have overpowered combinations of racial features? If anyone here thought that the lack of optimized races was the only thing keeping the game from becoming unplayable broken... I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

By the time you're at the level of game experience to create an unstoppable character, you're probably also at the level to realize that the game just isn't any fun when you do that, unless you're the type who enjoys ruining the game for other people for your own amusement, in which case good luck lasting more than two sessions before getting kicked out.

If a player wanted to join one of my games with a race that looked like something out of Dr. Moreau's nightmares, I'd just laugh. As it stands, the ARG is an excellent tool for gauging race balance, creating variants, and adapting existing races to Pathfinder, as it's intended to be.

I mean , it will be, once it's fixed. 2 points for a +2 bonus on one skill, and 6 for alter self at will? Brken plz fix.

[Tanuki Tales]

Am I the only one who thinks it's a little insulting and discriminatory to assume that a player wanting to create an entire race is just doing it to powergame and should be laughed at or hit with the DMG?

I mean what if a player wants to play a specific Monster but either the game is too low a level to allow it or the DM doesn't allow Monsters or the Monsters are mostly of one mindset or alignment and the DM won't allow rebels or whatever reason under the sun.

With these new rules he can create a race that are descendants of dalliances with that race (such as Shifters to Lycans and Changelings to Doppelgangers), keeping the flavor or feel he wanted from the original Monster that couldn't be found otherwise without slapping on tons of templates or needing to follow a specific build to pay off.