Tome of Magic - suggestions?

[Cicciograna]

I recently bought Tome of Magic, and now I'm waiting for it to be shipped. Prior to the purchase, I investigated about the merits of this manual and found that it's a valuable add on for the game. However, I would like to ask some questions about the three base classes detailed in the tome.

1) Binders seem to be quite cool to play, being able to fulfill many roles in a way similar to Incarnum users, by changing their chassis of daily abilities by picking the right vestige to bind. This is really nice. However, I have a question on the vestiges available to the class: in the Tier System for Classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293) the Binder is classified as Tier 2 "with access to online vestiges" or Tier 3 "without access to the summon monster vestige". What are we talking about? Is there some source of online official vestiges that could be added to the list of summons, or does JaronK simply refer to homebrewed vestiges available online? In both cases, where could I find these additional vestiges?

2) Shadowcaster too seems a nifty class: looking around, I found that it could be classified somewhere around between Tier 2 and (high) Tier 4, so it would be fine in most games. Do you have any particular suggestions about this class or is it ready to be played out-of-the-box?

3) Truenamers. I know, they don't work. The first thing I did was to set up to find a good replacement for this class, and found a real plethora of them. In particular, I found these two works from Kellus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90961) and from Kyeudo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120488), and they seem really thorough, probabily the most complete reworkings of the class I found (if I'm wrong and other, better fixes do exist, I would be glad if you could please point me to them). What I'd like to know is if these two pieces of work are complete rewritings of the class, meaning that I could rip off the chapters regarding Truenamers from ToM and replace them; or those works just patch the pre-existing class, correct some utterances, fix some (many) mistakes and the like.

[Fenryr]

For the first one, here (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a).

Second, this may help (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11610.0).

Third, I can't help you. My bad.

[Zaq]

Kellus's fix is a total rewrite. Kyeudo's fix is still a rewrite and definitely not quite plug-and-play, but it's a lot closer to what ToM offers, and it might be possible to mix the two with a bit of work.

As for the Shadowcaster . . . the stuff they get is cool, but they don't get enough of it. Give them some kind of at-will or nearly at-will power to fall back on (like, say, Eldritch Blast or a facsimile thereof), and they're totally cool. As written, they spend a LOT more time in Crossbow Mode than pretty much any other caster, which is frustrating at best.

[Flickerdart]

Shadowcaster is pretty much unplayable until level 7, when you suddenly double your spells per day. After that, you merely have very few spells per day instead of nearly none. With a bard's HD and BAB, they can make passable gishes. There's some web enhancement content available for them here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a).

The Truenamer fixes are both complete; however, make sure to check out Zaq's Truenamer Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214115) if you want to know what's wrong with the original.

Binders get a ton of new stuff online, including from the previous link, here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070119a) and here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718). That last link has Zcerryl, the Summon Monster vestige in question.

[Cicciograna]

For the first one, here (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a).

Second, this may help (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11610.0).

Third, I can't help you. My bad.

Thanks. Very interesting stuff.


Kellus's fix is a total rewrite. Kyeudo's fix is still a rewrite and definitely not quite plug-and-play, but it's a lot closer to what ToM offers, and it might be possible to mix the two with a bit of work.
Hm, I'll probabily go with Kellus' work, even if this means to completely discard one third of the Tome. What a pity.


As for the Shadowcaster . . . the stuff they get is cool, but they don't get enough of it. Give them some kind of at-will or nearly at-will power to fall back on (like, say, Eldritch Blast or a facsimile thereof), and they're totally cool. As written, they spend a LOT more time in Crossbow Mode than pretty much any other caster, which is frustrating at best.

Shadowcaster is pretty much unplayable until level 7, when you suddenly double your spells per day. After that, you merely have very few spells per day instead of nearly none. With a bard's HD and BAB, they can make passable gishes. There's some web enhancement content available for them here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a).

In another thread I found a suggestion, by Fax Celestis, that seemed to gain the general consensus:

[speaking of Shadowcasters]Tier 2 without amendment. They're a full caster with fewer spells per day, and are capable of being part of a Double-Nines casting suite (Wiz 3/Shd 3/Noctumancer 10/MT 4). They also get some rather potent mysteries (echo spell, warp spell, shadow time, umbral body, flicker...). Their biggest issue is that they get so few mysteries per day.

My favorite method of amendment is to give them a refresh mechanic a la ToB (spend a full round action to recover all spells cast from one path).
Would you agree with the idea that the bolded part solves part of the issues of the Shadowcaster?


The Truenamer fixes are both complete; however, make sure to check out Zaq's Truenamer Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214115) if you want to know what's wrong with the original.
Apart from the (great) work from Zaq, I seem to remember that one of the playgrounders had in his signature his experiences with truenaming. Does anybody happen to remember who that user was? Incidentally I could swear he was Zaq himself, but in his signature there is no trace of the thread I'm looking for.
I'm an idiot, it's in the first line of Zaq's post you linked me :smallredface:


Binders get a ton of new stuff online, including from the previous link, here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070119a) and here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718). That last link has Zcerryl, the Summon Monster vestige in question.
Thank you too. Quite interesting links.

[Lateral]

1) Binders seem to be quite cool to play, being able to fulfill many roles in a way similar to Incarnum users, by changing their chassis of daily abilities by picking the right vestige to bind. This is really nice. However, I have a question on the vestiges available to the class: in the Tier System for Classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293) the Binder is classified as Tier 2 "with access to online vestiges" or Tier 3 "without access to the summon monster vestige". What are we talking about? Is there some source of online official vestiges that could be added to the list of summons, or does JaronK simply refer to homebrewed vestiges available online? In both cases, where could I find these additional vestiges?
Yeah, it's pretty much just Zceryll- it allows you to use a Summon Monster spell every 5 rounds. It's a Summon Monster at the spell level a normal caster would be casting them at, too.


2) Shadowcaster too seems a nifty class: looking around, I found that it could be classified somewhere around between Tier 2 and (high) Tier 4, so it would be fine in most games. Do you have any particular suggestions about this class or is it ready to be played out-of-the-box?
Unfortunately, no. They're more like tier 5; as mentioned above, their mysteries have a crippling lack of uses/day. A refresh mechanic, in addition to the quasi-official shadowcaster adjustments recommended by the creator, would probably allow it to perform fairly well.


3) Truenamers. I know, they don't work. The first thing I did was to set up to find a good replacement for this class, and found a real plethora of them. In particular, I found these two works from Kellus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90961) and from Kyeudo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120488), and they seem really thorough, probabily the most complete reworkings of the class I found (if I'm wrong and other, better fixes do exist, I would be glad if you could please point me to them). What I'd like to know is if these two pieces of work are complete rewritings of the class, meaning that I could rip off the chapters regarding Truenamers from ToM and replace them; or those works just patch the pre-existing class, correct some utterances, fix some (many) mistakes and the like.
Kellus's fix and Kyeudo's fix are the two most universally approved fixes, yes- which one you use pretty much boils down to what you want. Kyeudo's fix is closer to the original Truenamer, but that isn't necessarily a good thing. The two both have pros and cons. They're both full-on rehauls, though, not just patch jobs.

[nyarlathotep]

2) Shadowcaster too seems a nifty class: looking around, I found that it could be classified somewhere around between Tier 2 and (high) Tier 4, so it would be fine in most games. Do you have any particular suggestions about this class or is it ready to be played out-of-the-box?

With the fix (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/184955-shadowcaster-fixes-mouseferatu.html), they are on par with bards, without it they are rather bad.

[Lateral]

With the fix (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/184955-shadowcaster-fixes-mouseferatu.html), they are on par with bards, without it they are rather bad.

Eh, even with that fix they're still a bit subpar. It doesn't really go far enough.

[Tvtyrant]

Eh, even with that fix they're still a bit subpar. It doesn't really go far enough.

I disagree; the Shadowcaster is tier 4 imo. It has a number of spells that are fairly unique to them, such as Flicker, Flood of Shadows and Warp Spell.

[Lateral]

I disagree; the Shadowcaster is tier 4 imo. It has a number of spells that are fairly unique to them, such as Flicker, Flood of Shadows and Warp Spell.

Yeah, but they don't really get enough uses/day to be relevant. The fix helps, but doesn't help quite enough.

Well, except if you're building around Flicker. Flicker is incredibly good if you're trying to build a shadowpouncer build; each use lasts long enough for a combat, so if you've dedicated the build to taking Flicker you can be set for teleportation with your swift action. It's an immediate action, even, so you can use it during enemies' turns. Thing is, Shadowcasters are 1/2 BAB and don't really get any way to be decent gishes, so you'd have to build carefully.

[Flickerdart]

Thing is, Shadowcasters are 1/2 BAB and don't really get any way to be decent gishes, so you'd have to build carefully.
Many mysteries such as Bolster are fantastic for gishes.

[FearlessGnome]

Regarding the tier of Shadowcasters: The only way of getting them to tier 2 at level 20 is to make a Noctumancer (Tome of Magic)/Mystic Theurge type build, and even then the win comes from having the spellcasting of a wizard 17.

If you build a straight Shadowcaster villain 18-20 right (Preferably with the author's fix), you can have one of the following: Supernatural two round Mass Dominate Monster that affects the whole bloody party and their cohorts 1-4 times per day (Better have those Mindblanks up on EVERYONE), Supernatural Timestop, or a Supernatural 2-mile radius Maze effect that lasts for your caster level times 24 hours per casting. 1-4 times per day. -.-'
Add a few other high level spells and tricks, but still strictly inferior to a Sorcerer in anything but their one flashy trick. Few spells and even fewer prestige class options.

In lower optimization games, though, they are excellent fun at levels 7+ when immediate action counterspell and mini-dimension door, plus spells like shadow evocation give enough flexibility to actually survive and influence battles. Below that they are bad enough that I believe they are the only base class in D&D that provides a mechanic for starting out as a different class and then converting those levels into Shadowcaster levels later on.

Yeah.

[mootoall]

If you're open to homebrew, I'd recommend checking out Realm of Chaos' "Descent of Shadows" project. It is *excellent.*

[Demons_eye]

Binders can be very fun to play Fluff and Crunch wise. They mix well with everything so dipping into any other class can help you focus on a vestige or a quirk or trait you want to show. Binders really pick up at level 8 where you can bind two vestiges at once leading to much fun. My favorite combos to this day are; Dahlver-Nar & Buer, mark a target and keep cutting yourself until they die. Take a few minutes break to get to full hp, also allies love full HP out of combat heal. Haures plus Naberius, make illusions to lie or lie to help your illusions. Favorite moment was when a custom fly mount spell had me fly fast in a town, I made an illusion of a bear riding my back screaming like a siren.

[ThiefInTheNight]

Seconding Descent of Shadows.

Utterly disagreeing with anyone who suggests that a Shadowcaster can ever hit Tier 2 (a Sorcerer/Shadowcaster/Noctumancer is still a Sorcerer, but Shadowcaster is adding little and less to this build, IMO; weaker Tier 2 than Sorcerer is normally).

I'm extremely dubious about Shadowcasters hitting Tier 3, either. Maybe at high levels, when they actually have a reasonable number of uses per day and mysteries known. Maybe. They do have some pretty good gishing mysteries.

But the problems with Shadowcasters are threefold:
They get very few mysteries per day, particularly at low levels. At high levels, it's merely "quite limited" rather than "you will spend 75% of your time as little better than a commoner".
They get very few mysteries known. Considering the limitations on mystery acquisition (especially without the fix), and the way you're apparently supposed to "re-take" a mystery you like in order to use it a reasonable number of times per day, this is a rather serious problem.
They have very few mysteries worth knowing. Bolster, Flicker, Shadow Time, and Umbral Touch are ones I know to be worthwhile. There may be a couple of others (the Breath of Twilight and Heart and Soul Master Paths look interesting), but ultimately, not many — especially in that Initiate region (seriously, that's weird; I guess you just take Bolster over and over?).
Yes, 2 and 3 kind of cancel each other out... but in a really sucky way.

Hence supporting Descent of Shadows. Shadowcasters are cool, and aren't awful, but they need some tweaking and they need some more content. Descent of Shadows provides those.