How much LA for a Paragon (3.5)

[Drewski]

I've been looking at the Paragon template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) and how it could be used to boost the power of almost any build in a Epic Gestalt game. I was wondering how much LA it should have. It been suggested from any where as low as 11 LA, to as much as 25 LA. What do you guys think?

[RaggedAngel]

I've been looking at the Paragon template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) and how it could be used to boost the power of almost any build in a Gestalt game. I was wondering how much LA it should have. It been suggested from any where as low as 11 LA, to as much as 25 LA. What do you guys think?

LA and the level system break down at higher levels, and Gestalt shatters the notion of Tiers and balance at almost any level. I think that 15 is a decent LA, though; while you get boosted in pretty much every way, you can't actually do anything new or different (other than Dispel at CL 15, which is meh at the levels you can be a Paragon.) Heck, this template is only really usable in Gestalt.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Paragon template should not appear in any game in which the PCs aren't already epic level or near epic level. It has no stated level adjustment, because it should not be available for PCs to acquire. A DM may give it to a PC under special circumstances, similar to divine rank and deific powers, but it is rightfully not available for players to simply add to their character for a mundane level cost.

[Drewski]

I didn't make it clear that it is an Epic Gestalt game, so I changed it. Maybe making a Paragon prestige monster class is in order?

[Mr.Bookworm]

Doing it by the numbers:

Take a 1st level Fighter, Paragon Human, assuming starting gp for a 1st level Fighter. Elite ability array, for Str 15, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 8. Post-adjustment, that's Str 30, Dex 27, Con 29, Int 28, Wis 25, Cha 23.

With his greatsword, he attacks at +36, for 2d6+30 damage. With his +8 Dex bonus, he might as well just wear padded armor, so he has an AC of 48. His saves are Fort +21, Ref +18, and Will +17. He has 31 HP. He moves 90 ft. a round. His skills all get a +10.

He can use greater dispel magic, haste, and see invisibility as spell-like abilities, 3/day at CL 15. He has fire and cold resistance 10, SR 26, fast healing 20, and DR 10/epic.

Conclusion: Absolutely goddamn impossible to balance. Any "reasonable" LA is going to make him useless (see 34 HP man up there) and anything less than that make it incredibly overpowered.

For gestalt? Maybe +20? Really not sure. It's just flat, massive numerical boosts. I'm uncertain exactly how to price that.

[Runestar]

I agree that hp is the main limitation. What's the use of having so good stats when at epic lv, a lucky crit or any AoE including you does you in?

Conclusion: Just not suitable for PC use.

[Mystic Muse]

I didn't make it clear that it is an Epic Gestalt game, so I changed it. Maybe making a Paragon prestige monster class is in order?


All I know is, I won't be making it any time soon.:smalltongue:

More seriously, the problem with the Paragon template for a monster class is that there's almost nothing there to work with. It would be a level 15 class (Since amount of levels is same as CR, with the exception of CRs that would go into epic, in which case levels past 21 is optional), and there's nothing to really fill those levels based off of the template with anything other than static boosts. The only active abilities it gives are a few SLAs, and that's not enough to make it a monster class. Anybody making a monster class based off of it is largely going to be working from fluff, because having nothing new to do for a large number of levels is boring. Given that the SRD doesn't provide fluff, I couldn't even work off of that, because I'm pretty sure my library (Where I get my books) doesn't have the Epic level handbook.

Back to the original topic, in a level 30 gestalt game I'm playing in, my DM allowed it for 15 LA.