Psyonics?

[Draig]

I have been a DM for quite some time now and one thing i was never entirely ok with was Psyonics. But recently ive had a player coming to me and saying that he will only play if i allow them into my campaign. First off What is YOUR view of Psyonics? What are some things i should majorly watch out for? and What are some good Dm/Npc/Baddies that use psyonics?


Also if ive been spelling Psyonics wrong i apologize, but that's how unknown it is to me.

[AspectOfNihil]

First of all, I believe that as the DM the world is yours, if you really don't like psionics and are uncomfortable with them, don't use them. The choice of whether to play or not is his.

At the same time though, as the DM it's your job to make the world fun. It may be best to slowly introduce them, start with some monsters using them against the PCs, because you need to be familiar enough with the system to throw appropriate challenges at them, for example, you don't want to throw something unhittable, but with no energy resistances at an Egoist.

All in all, introduce it, but do so slowly. Don't let them be Metaminds or Cerebremancers before you're ready to handle such a PC.

They definitely add an interesting aspect to the game and I believe it is worth it. They have some interesting backstory possibilities. For example, Psychic Warrior Monasteries are wonderful things, training the body and mind to new extremes. I recently played a Psychic Warrior and in the current campaign another party memeber is playing a Psion. It makes the game more interesting and adds a new depth.

I can see why he wants Psionics in his campaign, but at the same time, I see why you're tentative about it.

Some things to watch out for? If they're playing Psions, get ready for the same things you'd get ready for a high level wizard. They're powerful and can do some very strange things. The only real difference is Psions are a lot more flexible. They don't have to prepare, get acces to a varied power list, and with Expanded Knowledge can get almost any power out there regardless. Just be ready for anything.

Personally I believe you should look over his Character Sheet and familiarise yourself with what they're planning on using, so you can prepare. If they're a Kineticist, throw resistant enemies at them. Make sure they still have to work as part of a team to get the job done and don't overshadow anybody else.

Good Monsters? Don't go Psion Killers, they will just make the Player feel like you're punishing them. Creatures like the Cerebrelith are good, they mix Combat and Psionics reasonably well, just like an outsider should.
The biggest quiver in your arrow though, is class levels.
Give the monsters levels in psionic classes as well. It allows you to fight the player at his level while still ensuring level and class appropriate challenges
Hope this is of some help.

[Gavinfoxx]

Just a quick primer, it's "Psionics" or "Psychic". Psionics is a great magic subsystem for D&D 3.5e, it's extremely well balanced, and is actually better at simulating fantasy fiction than Vancian casting, which can only simulate... well.. Jack Vance's works. Remember, Vancian casting was chosen specifically because it didn't look like any other sorts of magic in fiction or anything; a system that uses 'mana', like psionics, is often much more close to how magic is described in fantasy fiction.

Again, anything that psionics can do, magic can also do, and often with fewer restrictions. The most powerful magical effects in the game are generally spell effects, less so with psionics, though there are a few well known broken 'tricks' in psionic sides of things as well.

[erikun]

Psionics is a good system. It is easier to make a competent character and a bit more difficult to make gross mistakes than with spellcasting. Psionics multiclasses better than spellcasting, handles lost manifester levels better than lost caster levels, and individual powers are a bit more versatile than individual spells.

However, psionics it is not objectively stronger than magic. Most psionic powers have restrictions or limitations that magic spells do not. A psion could use a first-level power to deal 15d6 damage at 15th level, but to do so he would need to spend 15 PP; that is the equilivant to casting an 8th level spell for a wizard.


As for things to watch out for, do not allow any infinite-PP loops. You'll probably want to avoid the "Spell-to-Power Erudite (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a)" variant, as that gives the character far more versatility than you likely intend. You'll also want to avoid questionable rules interpretations, such as allowing a Psicrystal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm#psicrystals) (the equilivant of a Wizard's familiar) to gain its own feats as the character levels up.


The two biggest rules to remember are: 1.) A manifester cannot spend more PP than his manifester level, and 2.) A character must expend a psionic focus to apply Metapsionics to a power. As such, your 1st level Psion cannot spend 20 PP to deal 20d6 damage, and you will never see a Quickened Maximized Twin Chained Burrowing power like you do with spells.

[Keld Denar]

Psionics are inherantly a lot more balanced that magic is, simply because there aren't as many published sources of psionic material. That said, there are still some big offenders to watch out for. Affinity Field is the biggest, but its a 9th level power, so...yea. Sincronicity in CPsionic, however, is rediculous, especially if you Quicken Power or Link Power with it. Other than that, there are a few minor tricks, but most of them aren't that easy to find or use.

All in all, as long as psionics FIT in your game world, I personally urge you to allow them. Just remember the number 1 rule...

YOU CAN'T SPEND MORE PP ON A SINGLE POWER THAN YOU HAVE MANIFESTER LEVELS!!!!!!!

Capslock for emphasis. It'll probably get mentioned at least 3-4 more times. The biggest complaints I've seen about psionics is "ZOMG, the 4th level psion in my party just did 20d6 damage with Energy Ray...WTF, psionics is so brokenz!" No. The psion in your party should have done 4d6 damage...MAYBE 5d6 with something like Overchannel. Just because you have a bunch of PP doesn't mean you can dump them all into one action.

[Jeraa]

Well, the first thing you have to remember is "YOU CAN NOT SPEND MORE PP..." Wait... that has been said.

Fine, the second thing then. Do not use the 3.0 Psionics Handbook. Always use the 3.5 Expanded Psionics Handbook.

[Inferno]

Do NOT use the 3.0 Psionics Handbook. Always use the 3.5 Expanded Psionics Handbook.

This is a very important point, as the Expanded Psionics handbook is the core book for 3.5 psionics. Also note that psionics in 3.0 was strange and frightening in that it managed to be both over and underpowered at the same time...

[Amphetryon]

Well, the first thing you have to remember is "YOU CAN NOT SPEND MORE PP..." Wait... that has been said.

Fine, the second thing then. Do not use the 3.0 Psionics Handbook. Always use the 3.5 Expanded Psionics Handbook.
Just treat the 3.0 Psionics Handbook as occupying the same null-space as Highlander 2. Everyone will be happier.

[HunterOfJello]

As long as you keep track of the Psionic PrCs then all of the Psionic characters that you're going to see are going to be significantly more balanced Mage-type characters.

Psions are the most common Psionic class and they work like Sorcerers do. In fact, pretty much all of the psinoic classes work similar to sorcerers. Psionics adds a lot of new options to D&D and are a good addition to any game, in my opinion.

I felt about the same way you do before I read through the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Once you read through it, however you can see that Psions and Psychic Warriors make very cool characters.

Psionics is similar to magic, but has a few important differences:
1. As mentioned above, you can spend more power points to manifest (cast) a power (spells) than your class level. There are feats and class abilities that let you use a few more power points, but those are exceptions to the rule.

2. Psionics is far less focused on Evocation-type powers and they cost more to use than they would as a Spellcaster. For instance, a level 10 Wizard can cast Lightning Bolt using up a 3rd level spell slot to do 10d6 electricity damage. Psions get an almost identical ability called Energy Bolt. The Energy Bolt power can be obtained by a Psion at the same level a wizard gets it, level 5. If a Psion manifests an Energy Bolt paying the normal power point (PP) cost of 5pp then it does 5d6 damage in the same 120ft line as a Lightning Bolt would do. (One interested difference is that the Psion can choose which type of damage the energy bolt does and there are different results for whichever type of energy they choose to do. Fire does +1 point of damage per die while Cold does +1 point of damage per die and requires the enemy to do a Fortitude save instead of a Reflex save.) Regardless of which energy type they do, their damage from an unaugmented Energy Bolt never goes over 5d6 damage while they're only using 5pp to use it. For a level 10 Psion to do 10d6 damage with their Energy Bolt, they have to pay an additional power point cost to "Augment" it. The wizard gets the bonus damage increase for free, Psions do not! The Psion will have to use 10 power points to make the Energy Bolt do 10d6 damage. Also, since they've augmented it up to the equivalent of a 5th level spell now, they get a +2 to the DC of the power.

So, psionics is a very interesting system that uses different rules to restrict the rate that powers become more dangerous to enemies. Magic users get their low level spells to become significantly more powerful each time they level up, but Psionics restricts that progression and makes the PC pay for their blasting. That is not to say that Psionics is largely a blasting-type magic system (it really isn't), but I think that properly illuminates one of a number of balancing techniques that were introduced into the Psionics system.

~~~~~~~~

Also, don't forget that there's a very useful Complete Psionics book out there that introduces the fun classes: the Ardent and the Erudite.

~~~~~~~~

Now that I've bought and read the XPH I love the system and would love to run a no-magic campaign that included only Psionics and the other classes from the game. The system is very cool and fun to use. A lot of the powers are very cool and there are a ton of things you can do in psionics that you can't do with Divine or Arcane magic. The Telepathy powers, the Seer powers that let you become a psychic fortune teller, and the Astral Construct power alone make the system really imaginative and a joy to play.

[Tvtyrant]

The only class that can siginificantly ignore the cap on PP use is also the weakest of the psions that get 9ths, due to how few they get. The Wilder is unlikely to break anything.

[sreservoir]

Also, don't forget that there's a very useful Complete Psionics book out there that introduces the fun classes: the Ardent and the Erudite.


CPsi is better when you pretend it doesn't exist.

[HunterOfJello]

I know I'm double posting, but I figured I should put this in a new post since it's an important message and a quick one too.

~~~

I think it's important for me to point out that the classes from the XPH are all Sorcerer-type classes. They have a handful of pseudo-magical abilities based around a somewhat simple system. It would be very easy for you to learn the basics of the system and then sit down with the player to find out which powers he's selecting for his character to use.

At level 5 a Psion only knows 11 powers and at level 10 they only know 21 powers. That's a short list of abilities for you to look through, get an understanding of and then sit back to watch the player use them. Tell the player they can use any Psionic class other than an Erudite and you shouldn't have much trouble with the psionics system. The player won't be playing a complicated character with a spell list as long as the Archivist or Wizard, they'll be playing a Sorcerer or Favored Soul type character that is easy to monitor and keep an easy watch over.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I know I'm double posting, but I figured I should put this in a new post since it's an important message and a quick one too.

Two Psychic Rogues got in before you.

Also, I think psyonics is the new rouge!

[ThiefInTheNight]

All in all, introduce it, but do so slowly. Don't let them be Metaminds or Cerebremancers before you're ready to handle such a PC.
What on earth is there to "handle" about Metaminds or Cerebremancers? Both PrCs are basically shooting yourself in the foot...

[Starbuck_II]

What on earth is there to "handle" about Metaminds or Cerebremancers? Both PrCs are basically shooting yourself in the foot...

Aspect likely didn't read the class, just the flavor. The 3.0 Metamind was pretty strong, but they never updated the 3.5 one (same assumptions as the 3.0) so it became weak as the system changed.

Cerebremancers? Likely Mystic Theurge syndrome: remember back in the day all the "it's so powerful" quotes? Yeah, they didn't realize versatility doesn't mean power. Power means power. A versatile dude with little power is not more powerful than someone actually powerful.

[Grendus]

Remember, you can't spend more PP on a manifestation than your ML. Yes, it bears repeating that much, that's the number one source of problems with psionics. If you remember that fundamental rule, psionics are a more balanced version of spellcasting (imagine if the damage of a wizard's fireball was based on the level of the spell slot it was cast from rather than his CL). It still has its issues, psions are more flexible than the T3 and below classes, and it has it's own set of exploits, but no worse than spellcasting.

[Big Fau]

Aspect likely didn't read the class, just the flavor. The 3.0 Metamind was pretty strong, but they never updated the 3.5 one (same assumptions as the 3.0) so it became weak as the system changed.

Cerebremancers? Likely Mystic Theurge syndrome: remember back in the day all the "it's so powerful" quotes? Yeah, they didn't realize versatility doesn't mean power. Power means power. A versatile dude with little power is not more powerful than someone actually powerful.

The strange thing is Theurge-types are very versatile.


The problem is they had to sacrifice 3 levels to get that versatility.

[Flickerdart]

Aspect likely didn't read the class, just the flavor. The 3.0 Metamind was pretty strong, but they never updated the 3.5 one (same assumptions as the 3.0) so it became weak as the system changed.
The 3.0 Metamind was terrible - you completely gimped your power progression and ended up with the same amount of PP that a full Psion would.

[AspectOfNihil]

Starbuck_II is right, I only casually glanced over Metamind. Shooting yourself in the foot seems a fitting simile for taking the PrC.
However I believe the Cerebremancer to be good because assuming you take Precocious Apprentice (which if you're doing a dual-progression arcane PrC is almost expected), you only lose 1 level of manifesting, which puts you on par with a sorceror spell-level wise, and you gain access to a decent number of all day buffs.

The flexibility of a Psion mixed with the all-day buffs of a mid-level wizard seems a rather potent mix, but having never played a Theurgic character, I may have to do a bit of play-testing.

[ThiefInTheNight]

Starbuck_II is right, I only casually glanced over Metamind. Shooting yourself in the foot seems a fitting simile for taking the PrC.
However I believe the Cerebremancer to be good because assuming you take Precocious Apprentice (which if you're doing a dual-progression arcane PrC is almost expected), you only lose 1 level of manifesting, which puts you on par with a sorceror spell-level wise, and you gain access to a decent number of all day buffs.

The flexibility of a Psion mixed with the all-day buffs of a mid-level wizard seems a rather potent mix, but having never played a Theurgic character, I may have to do a bit of play-testing.
Losing a single manifesting level for 11th level spellcasting is probably worth it at level 14. Losing a single manifesting level for 11th level spellcasting isn't worth it at all at level 20. So it depends a bit on what levels you anticipate. But none of that really matters; early entry shouldn't really be assumed when talking about a PrC. A Wiz 3/Psi 3/Cere 10 is clearly awful.

[Big Fau]

Starbuck_II is right, I only casually glanced over Metamind. Shooting yourself in the foot seems a fitting simile for taking the PrC.
However I believe the Cerebremancer to be good because assuming you take Precocious Apprentice (which if you're doing a dual-progression arcane PrC is almost expected), you only lose 1 level of manifesting, which puts you on par with a sorceror spell-level wise, and you gain access to a decent number of all day buffs.

The flexibility of a Psion mixed with the all-day buffs of a mid-level wizard seems a rather potent mix, but having never played a Theurgic character, I may have to do a bit of play-testing.

Precious Apprentice doesn't work for early entry. There are ways to make it work, but it alone does not work.

[shadow_archmagi]

I have been a DM for quite some time now and one thing i was never entirely ok with was Psyonics.


I can understand that; many DMs are a little nervous around things unfamiliar.


I've had a player coming to me and saying that he will only play if i allow them into my campaign.


This is a bad sign. Not even psionics related, but generally speaking, I feel like "I won't play unless I can play X" is very worrying. If someone told me they wouldn't play in a game where I didn't allow something, I'd assume that player was either

A. Uncreative
B. Had some particular trick or rules abuse. (IE: "I won't play in a game without kobolds" because the idiot really wants to try to slip Pun-Pun past me. As if that would ever work. )


First off What is YOUR view of Psyonics?


I like them. I think they're a lot more flexible that traditional vancian casting without necessarily being more powerful for it. They're definitely balanced, and I don't feel like they necessarily conflict with traditional magic; generally I tend to view them as being some kind of fusion of wizard and sorcerer, since they're innate powers that need to a strong mind to contemplate them.


What are some things i should majorly watch out for?


Well, the major mixup is that you can only spend powerpoints equal to your caster level, so that a 6th level character can only spend 6 points on any one thing. Otherwise, Psionics is pretty chill, and I can't think of anything you really need to watch out for.

As for great villains, I don't recall ever remembering to make a psionic enemy for my players, and none of my DMs did either. However, the 5th level power Fiery Discorporation allows you to make a Will save against death, which is kind of an awesome villain thing to do.

"You stab him, and he shatters into a million sparks!"
"Great job team let's leave here"
*next day, villain reforms happily*

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

This topic has been beaten to death. Here's a good primer:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19571246/New_3.5_Psionics_FAQ

[Flickerdart]

However I believe the Cerebremancer to be good because assuming you take Precocious Apprentice (which if you're doing a dual-progression arcane PrC is almost expected), you only lose 1 level of manifesting, which puts you on par with a sorceror spell-level wise, and you gain access to a decent number of all day buffs.
That's not how losing manifesting class levels works. Unless you are an Ardent, you will never have more than 8th level powers if taking a 5/10 manifesting class all the way, at least pre-Epic.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Myth: The XPH is overpowered (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/18833134/Myth:_The_XPH_is_overpowered) is a great reading if you are a bit iffy on psionics.

And well like everything on D&D there are some exploits concerning psionics; but IMO they need more work than their arcane or divine counterparts; but if there is something psionics do even better than wizards is playing with the action economy.

Psionic's Trick Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177889) <-For reference

[AspectOfNihil]

That's not how losing manifesting class levels works. Unless you are an Ardent, you will never have more than 8th level powers if taking a 5/10 manifesting class all the way, at least pre-Epic.

Good thing cerebremancer is full progression then eh? :smallwink:
I agree, at higher levels, the arcane side gets more and more useless, but at low-mid (8-14) levels, it can give you some handy things.
Probably Definitely not as optimised as straight Psion or Wizard, but as the OP was worried about running Psionics is an as-yet psionics-free world, it can be rather complicated to deal with.

Personally, I don't have the intelligence to wrap my head around the thousand-and-one different tricks available to theurgic characters, I'll stick to one spell list. But they definitely have their place, and can allow some rather cool character concepts aswell.

Optimal character?
No.
Versatile, interesting, complex, rewarding character?
Possibly.

[Dusk Eclipse]

There is a way to get double nines with Cerebremancer and Mind Mage (a Prg. Class from Dragon)... so yeah :smallwink:

[sreservoir]

but it's so much easier to just go ardent/ur-priest/psychic theurge!

[AspectOfNihil]

Cerebremancer/Mind Mage
Because reality can just sit the [expletive deleted] down

[Dusk Eclipse]

but it's so much easier to just go ardent/ur-priest/psychic theurge!

But that is so easy it feels like cheating :smalltongue:

[ThiefInTheNight]

This is a bad sign. Not even psionics related, but generally speaking, I feel like "I won't play unless I can play X" is very worrying. If someone told me they wouldn't play in a game where I didn't allow something, I'd assume that player was either

A. Uncreative
B. Had some particular trick or rules abuse. (IE: "I won't play in a game without kobolds" because the idiot really wants to try to slip Pun-Pun past me. As if that would ever work. )
Ehh... I would not say those are the only options here. I can think of other reasons to want it, or to not want it banned. I'm fairly pro-options in terms of the games I play in and the games I DM; a game where a lot of sources, or sources I consider high-quality (such as the XPH and ToB) are banned... is one I am somewhat leery about.

[Dusk Eclipse]

That depends, I mean on a pbp I tend too to avoid games that ban my favourite sources such as XPH or ToB; but really in a RL game (as this appear to be) I would be quite leery if a player reacted that way.

[Psyren]

Note that it's not nearly as imperative to get 9ths with psionics as it is with magic. Low level augmented powers are often just as effective if not more so than high-level ones, and many effects are gotten much earlier for psionics. (For instance, Time Stop is a 6th-level power and Dominate Monster is 4th.)

[Big Fau]

Note that it's not nearly as imperative to get 9ths with psionics as it is with magic. Low level augmented powers are often just as effective if not more so than high-level ones, and may effects are gotten much earlier for psionics. (For instance, Time Stop is a 6th-level power and Dominate Monster is 4th.)

To clarify, they are augmentable. The Time Stop equivalent, for example, only lasts 2 rounds unless you augment it (and has a drawback for when the duration expires, albeit an easily ignored one). Fully augmented it ends up being otherwise identical to Time Stop, with the exception that it is effectively a 10th level "spell".


That, and Psionic characters suffer from diminishing returns. I've often had trouble selecting powers because so few of the high level ones seem interesting, and that my low level ones end up being my go-to's during combat or other encounters.

[Darthteej]

Note that it's not nearly as imperative to get 9ths with psionics as it is with magic. Low level augmented powers are often just as effective if not more so than high-level ones, and may effects are gotten much earlier for psionics. (For instance, Time Stop is a 6th-level power and Dominate Monster is 4th.)

That is a good rule of thumb, though there is some pretty fun stuff. Microcasm and Greater Metamorphasis(AKA Power Word:Stun and Shapechange) are the two most obvious.

There's also Assimilate and Tornado Blast, which are practical combat powers. Mind Swap is fun, and Metafaculty is a like Legend Lore, only instantaneous.

[shadow_archmagi]

Ehh... I would not say those are the only options here. I can think of other reasons to want it, or to not want it banned. I'm fairly pro-options in terms of the games I play in and the games I DM; a game where a lot of sources, or sources I consider high-quality (such as the XPH and ToB) are banned... is one I am somewhat leery about.

Oh, sure. I'd definitely try to convince any DM I had to allow Psionics and ToB and whatnot. But I can't imagine saying "It's Psionics or NOTHING." I'd definitely be leery of a DM who banned everything though.

[Psyren]

To clarify, they are augmentable. The Time Stop equivalent, for example, only lasts 2 rounds unless you augment it (and has a drawback for when the duration expires, albeit an easily ignored one). Fully augmented it ends up being otherwise identical to Time Stop, with the exception that it is effectively a 10th level "spell".

I think that TA comes out ahead even so, given that it's a swift.

@ Darth: Unless you're an egoist (or epic) you're not getting GMorph anyway, so that's not much of an opportunity cost in my opinion. Same with the other discipline powers.

(Microcosm is closer to Kill than Stun, given how difficult it is to escape.)