Burning Wheel Houserules?

[Gametime]

So I'm (hopefully) starting up a game of Burning Wheel Gold soon. Neither I nor anyone I know has ever played the system before, but it looks like a lot of fun and I'm hoping to ease us into it.

I really like how most of the rules hang together, but there are a few (mostly minor) ones that just irk me. I was thinking about changing them, but wanted to get some feedback from people who've actually, y'know, played with them before I do.

1. The default amount of time that you hesitate after failing a Steel test in combat seems brutal, especially since it's easy for a starting character to have a Steel well below their Hesitation. I was thinking of changing this so that if you choose Stand and Drool, you hesitate for one action; if you choose anything else, you hesitate for a dramatically appropriate length of time (since running in terror or fainting for only one or two actions seems bizarre, as well). Am I being too coddling here? Is the potentially lengthy hesitation good for combat? Does it just not come up all that often?

2. I'm not a fan of the DoF for ranged attacks. The only purpose it seems to serve is making it easier to get deadly attacks with ranged weapons. I was planning to just treat ranged weapons as add 2.

3. I'm also not a fan of armor being all or nothing. It just seems... odd. I was thinking about having each success on an armor die reduce the level of the hit by one - so one success against a mark hit would make it incidental, one success against an incidental would negate it, etc. Does this make armor too weak?

4. Changing to aggressive stance counts as the first action of intimidate, which makes a kind of sense but still strikes me as odd since intimidating doesn't get a bonus from aggressive stance. Would having it count as a strike just be too good? Would having it count as the first action of a great strike penalize two-weapon or weapon-and-shield users too much?

All feedback is appreciated. I'm mostly concerned with game balance, but realism is also a factor. Also, any other suggestions for houserules people have found helpful would be welcome.

[Xefas]

There aren't a lot of Burning Wheel players on this forum. Your best bet may be to go to the homebrew section of the official forum (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?25-It-Only-Takes-a-Spark-%28BWR%29). Luke is pretty active there, and there's no better source for information on the game than it's creator, right?

That said, I'm fairly sure I know what he'd say. (There would be certain vulgarities used :smalltongue:.) Suffice it to say, it's a beautifully designed system, and everything is the way it is for very precise reasons. I would urge you to play a few sessions with the standard rules before modding things. There may be nuances, is all.

[Gametime]

I actually posted this here before trying the official forums because I wanted to see if there were any glaring errors in my thinking before exposing my thoughts to a more dedicated player base. :smalltongue: But thanks. Your advice is good advice; I'll give the system a whirl unmodded before changing things.

[Totally Guy]

I'm going to talk a little about each of these points.


1. The default amount of time that you hesitate after failing a Steel test in combat seems brutal, especially since it's easy for a starting character to have a Steel well below their Hesitation. I was thinking of changing this so that if you choose Stand and Drool, you hesitate for one action; if you choose anything else, you hesitate for a dramatically appropriate length of time (since running in terror or fainting for only one or two actions seems bizarre, as well). Am I being too coddling here? Is the potentially lengthy hesitation good for combat? Does it just not come up all that often?

First off run screaming and swoon wouldn't just be happening for that short time. If you run screaming then you are trying to escape. If you escape the fight is now over and the hesitation doesn't apply in the same context. If you swoon you are out for longer than your hesitation.

So if you are hit with hesitation you've got to make a call. Stand and drool and risk being hit again and hard, run or beg. It's a hard choice.

This choice is made easier by either having less hesitation or more hesitation. If it's less you can perhaps stand and drool. If it's more then running is more attractive.


2. I'm not a fan of the DoF for ranged attacks. The only purpose it seems to serve is making it easier to get deadly attacks with ranged weapons. I was planning to just treat ranged weapons as add 2.

If I want to kill you with a sword chances are that my incidental hit is a superficial wound, my mark hit is a midi wound and my superb blow could kill you. I'd need to get at least 5 successes to get that superb blow. I can't do that unless I'm rolling 5 dice or more.

But lets say I've got a crossbow. I need to be rolling 2 dice to get my Ob 2 to hit at optimal then I've got to get lucky on the DoF.

The intent here is that anyone can kill using a crossbow whereas the sword users have got to be good. But if the archer misses in a fight then they can be in a world of pain and unable to reload.

I can see why you might not like it that way.


3. I'm also not a fan of armor being all or nothing. It just seems... odd. I was thinking about having each success on an armor die reduce the level of the hit by one - so one success against a mark hit would make it incidental, one success against an incidental would negate it, etc. Does this make armor too weak?

I too think it's odd being all or nothing. Not so familiar with this...

Remember VA adds to the ob for the armour roll. Armour does not help against a lock. I've also seen a "physical action" used to pull off a guy's helmet!


4. Changing to aggressive stance counts as the first action of intimidate, which makes a kind of sense but still strikes me as odd since intimidating doesn't get a bonus from aggressive stance. Would having it count as a strike just be too good? Would having it count as the first action of a great strike penalize two-weapon or weapon-and-shield users too much?

Aggressive stance is one of the best ways to get bonus dice to the moves that kill people. Assuming defensive stance and assuming neutral stance give a bonus action as they aren't as useful as going aggressive. Defensive makes you rely on counterstrike to do damage which is easy to feint and the feint you get from going neutral will only work in specific tactical situations.

Aggressive stance is the one that I've seen in play the most and that was in Revised Edition before it gave any side benefit at all.

[kaomera]

So two things I've got a feeling of from BW (and the BW forums):

1) House-ruling BW before you've played it "straight" is something of a cliché, and one that seems to hit a nerve with the author.

2) BW is designed with the intent that playing the rules as written is going to lead to playing the rules as intended; they say exactly what they mean. This is both an awesome idea, and I think one of the biggest stumbling blocks in getting into the game. I think a lot of gamers are much more used to the mode of trying to play around RAW at times to get to the RAI, and so you tend to try and puzzle out exactly how things will work and why and if that's a good thing or not before you play.

This is why the books suggest starting small with just the basics and slowly introducing the other "modules" of the rules. IMO the Mouse Guard RPG is a really excellent way to "break into" BW, in that the set-up (ie: you're playing mice...) is quirky enough that I tended to focus on that much more than trying to figure how I thought the rules should work... Plus it's a bit simpler. Barring that I'd really recommend getting the Adventure Burner, both because it has a lot of helpful info on playing the game and because the sample scenarios are a really good way tom start - I'd suggest The Sword (it used to be available by itself as a download from the BW site, dunno if that's still the case).

And definitely use some of the pre-made characters at first. It's somewhat tricky to make a good BW character until you've played a bit and gotten a feel for how things work.

[Totally Guy]

The Sword is definitely still there (http://www.burningwheel.org/wiki/index.php?title=Downloads#The_Sword).

I'd make sure to follow this advice that I saw on their forums if running it.


From running the Sword a few times with varied levels of success, my suggestions:

1. Inform them - and understand yourself - that The Sword is not really a roleplaying scenario. It's a mechanics demonstration. As such, it's gonna be way crunchier than it'd ordinarily be.
2. Character choices are not going to be as meaningful because the Beliefs are pre-written, and people aren't going to know how to use skills. I suggest going through the Character Burning steps quickly and pointing out how that resulted in the characters they've chosen. Also, reveal this knowledge to them, say something like: you aren't going to care as much about your character because he's a pregen, but do your best to get into his head and imagine how he'd react to things.
3. Inform the players that this is all-out, no-holds barred, PvP. The characters aren't friends. Likewise, don't be afraid to let the brutality play out. I often tried to protect PC's from each other because I wanted people to have fun, but that directly contradicts the scenario.
4. Nudge them a lot. Make suggestions. Constantly remind them to look at their character's Beliefs and Instincts. And when the more complex resolution systems come out - DoW, Fight - hold their hand through at least the first exchange.
5. Speaking of DoW/Fight/RnC, encourage people to think narratively first. Instead of trying to shoehorn narration around a list of randomly chosen actions, have them figure out the next few things they want their character to do, then choose the appropriate actions based on that.

Good luck!