Mutants and Masterminds General Discussion: All Your Power Points are Belong to Us [Archive]

Darklord Bright

2011-10-13, 07:08 AM

I was introduced to 2e MnM maybe, uh... a little over a year ago? And it is by far my favourite pen and paper system. I haven't made the switch to 3e (not out of hatred or anything, mostly just laziness. I'm bad at learning new rulesets period. :smalltongue: It can honestly take me years.) but I don't really worry too much about that.

Anyways, what I love about this system is how easily I can convert it from "Superhero game" to "Anime-themed" or "Cyberpunk" or "Conan" or "Sci-Fi" or even a friggin' fantasy sci-fi western if I really tried. It's all about playing with the power levels and fluffing things the right way. It's a pity I can never find any good, patient GMs with a reliable schedule around for this, because I truly do enjoy it more than the other systems out there. :smallsmile:

I played in a DnD-themed low-power game once, and it was fun. A pity it was basically limited to low fantasy (I like low fantasy a lot, don't get me wrong) since we were trying to see if we could emulate a DnD world but with the MnM freedoms, but it was still a heck of a lot of fun to do something different with the system, and I had a lot more character options than I was used to for a fantasy game. I think I played a scythe-wielding paladin of the death god in that game. Also played a couple good superhero games, but the schedule was rather lackluster and it was really hard to get invested in them when we could go a month with no activity and a mysteriously absent GM.

Still, Mutants and Masterminds has given me more fun than I've had in PnP for a loooong time.

Nerd-o-rama

2011-10-13, 09:46 AM

That is what I like best about the system. You can honestly use it for almost anything. In fact, it's easiest to list the two things it's hard to do - "gritty realist" games and things that involve a lot of battlemap-needing tactical combat. And with sufficient house rules, power level limitations, and tweaks to things like movement powers and ranges, you can manage at least one of those two. I did the latter for one whole combat encounter before I realized I don't like doing anything but combat encounters.

Pinnacle

2011-10-13, 11:56 AM

I have an almost related question:

What books do I need to play this? Just the core or anything else?

The core book is all a player needs for 2E, 3E, or DC Adventures (3E rules with some DC Comics-related content); I don't know anything about 1E, although I assume it is the same. There's a GMing section in the book, although I believe there's also a GM's book coming out (just came out?) for 3E. The 2E "Mastermind's Manual" is sometimes mistaken for a GM's guide; it is not, it is mostly a book of variant rules.
Ultimate Power comes highly recommended for a 2E game by many (including me), but it is not required.

The 2E book is literally called "Core Book", although even that's in smaller type on the side. The title on the book is just Mutants & Masterminds: Second Edition. This one (http://www.greenronin.com/store/product/grr2501.html).

The 3E and DCA are both called "Hero's Handbook".
The DCA HH is hardcover, this one (http://www.greenronin.com/store/product/grr5001.html).
The MnM 3E HH is softcover, this one (http://www.greenronin.com/store/product/grr5501.html).
Green Ronin sells all or most of their stuff in pdf form for reduced price, too, if you prefer that.

late for dinner

2011-10-18, 04:17 PM

hiryuu

2011-10-18, 06:43 PM

I have a question about Shape Shift...I am a new DM and am running my first rpg in general and I am making a Power Level 14 Boss for my Power Level 10 guys to fight...first, is that too hard for 10s?....Second, How exactly does Shape Shift work? I know I get 8pp per rank...I went rank 10...My vision is that My guy (Seed) Shifts into a plant/vine monster and grows to 30 feet high and uses AOE Snare and elongated limbs to Destroy things...Do I keep all of my non shape shifted self's skills/advantages/powers and add new ones to the bunch or do I lose them all and whatever I can fit within 80 points is what I get?

You keep everything. Shapeshifting is a Variable power structure, which means that those 80 points are basically free-floating character creation points you can spend on anything at any time and use only the action of shapeshift to shuffle around. Instead of buying powers, you set aside the points to be spent whenever and wherever you want.

...this is why it's a good idea to limit shapeshifting somehow.

late for dinner

2011-10-18, 06:56 PM

ok...actually then, it nerfs you a bit. If you spend 80 points in shape shift, you only get 50 back (rank x 5...and shape shift is 8 points a rank) So your 214 pp villian just got knocked down to 184 pp...but you can use those points on the fly on whatever you want...you basically have every power/advantage/skill/ability in the book if you want?

hiryuu

2011-10-18, 07:35 PM

you can use those points on the fly on whatever you want...you basically have every power/advantage/skill/ability in the book if you want?

Yes.

"I want blast 14 this round."

"I am acquiring an immunity to all that guy's powers."

And so on. It doesn't nerf you at all. For comparison, imagine a D&D class that allowed you to cast any spell you want, acquire any feat, and add new skill or ability points at will, but compensates by...

Nevermind. It doesn't try to compensate at all.

Starsign

2011-10-18, 07:47 PM

Well for Shapeshift, no not quite. It only allows PHYSICAL traits to be changed, so stuff like Immunity and Telekinesis aren't available. There are ways around some of them, so a GM needs to watch out for what they can allow and not allow when it comes to powers.

Now Variable Power is a little different... In the sense that it DOES allow anything and everything, so it needs REALLY careful attention when a PC has it.

The powers are very expensive though at like 8 or 9 per rank. The idea with Shapeshift and similar powers are versatility, the ability to adapt to areas with a lower overall ability than purchasing powers as themselves. I myself have yet to use such a power yet, though I plan to soon.

hiryuu

2011-10-18, 08:11 PM

Well for Shapeshift, no not quite. It only allows PHYSICAL traits to be changed, so stuff like Immunity and Telekinesis aren't available. There are ways around some of them, so a GM needs to watch out for what they can allow and not allow when it comes to powers.

That is no restriction at all. "Physical" is a descriptor.

"I'm going to grow XXXX alien's telekinesis gland."

"I'm going to acquire a rock-lava-monster snake's immunity to magma."

Shapeshift is nothing more than a Variable structure with a descriptor attached to it. That's why there's a sidebar and notes that amount to "watch this trait like a hawk." I'm not saying you should do anything of the sort, just that by RAW, you can. M&M is very much a game where you have to play it by RAI, since when you bring RAW into it, things spiral out of anyone's control very quickly. Heck, any of the power structures can get out of hand very quickly, like a continuous Container with the activation action bought down, giving you way more points than you put into it (even though it's just waiting for a single use of Nullify with your descriptors on it).

Starsign

2011-10-18, 08:20 PM

That is no restriction at all. "Physical" is a descriptor.

"I'm going to grow XXXX alien's telekinesis gland."

"I'm going to acquire a rock-lava-monster snake's immunity to magma."

Shapeshift is nothing more than a Variable structure with a descriptor attached to it. That's why there's a sidebar and notes that amount to "watch this trait like a hawk." I'm not saying you should do anything of the sort, just that by RAW, you can. M&M is very much a game where you have to play it by RAI, since when you bring RAW into it, things spiral out of anyone's control very quickly. Heck, any of the power structures can get out of hand very quickly, like a continuous Container with the activation action bought down, giving you way more points than you put into it (even though it's just waiting for a single use of Nullify with your descriptors on it).
True yes... Hence why I said "There are ways around some of them, so a GM needs to watch out for what they can allow and not allow when it comes to powers." But you've made your point and explained it, so I can't exactly argue on it any further.

Now if I may throw another topic in, for those who might have played M&M and it's more... Variable powers, how might you handle a character playing such a character with Mental Transformation (in other words, a character who can only shapeshift with mental traits rather than physical) and who has both Luck and probability control that has the Uncontrolled flaw and Side-Effect 2 flaw (where for this, Side-Effect = something bad happens nearby the character when something good happens specifically to him, and ONLY him). I have such a character here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=337479) that I made for fun (no fluff yet).

late for dinner

2011-10-18, 08:21 PM

If I have shapeshift can I use the pp on Growth and elongation, even if I didnt have them before I used shapeshift? or would I have to use a different power to get those??

Nerd-o-rama

2011-10-18, 08:34 PM

If I have shapeshift can I use the pp on Growth and elongation, even if I didnt have them before I used shapeshift? or would I have to use a different power to get those??

Yes. You can use the pp for whatever you want, period, as long as it's a physical change. And you can only change on your turn once per turn, unless it's a Reaction and I just forgot.

Shapeshift is so expensive because it can do whatever you like, on the fly.

late for dinner

2011-10-18, 11:57 PM

Treblain

2011-10-19, 12:26 AM

Hello everyone,

I've never played M&M, but I've read the 2E rules and I'm working on a campaign in a half-hearted way. I'm curious about how increasing Power Level works in practice. I understand that the game isn't geared toward a strict "leveling" system and I'm trying not to confuse PL with the D&D experience system. But all the same, I'd like my PL to increase by a few over the story.

How does it usually work in your experience? If I were, to say, start the characters at PL 5-6 and increase the PL every few sessions to finish at 10-12, would it work out okay?

Thanks.

RandomLunatic

2011-10-19, 10:47 AM

The general rule is 1 PL=15 PP, so increase the campaign's PL by 1 for every 15 power points you award the PCs. If you used a different ratio (like a high-powered game starting at PL 15 and 300 PP), then you should probably adjust the rate accordingly.

Beleriphon

2011-10-19, 02:19 PM

My play toys (pc's) are going to hate me...once I finish my super villain, i will post it and get some oppinions...als in regards to my first question...is one pl 14 guy too much for 3 pl 10s to take on...providing that he has minions as well?

That depends, will the villain have super high toughness? What damage levels can your heroes produce, other effects? If you have a speedster (high movement, low damage typically) then that character will likely be useless in a straight up fight. If they can target something other than Toughness to provoke effects then good, otherwise maybe look at some minions.

I like using minions largely because they are easy to take out but can present a pretty credible challenge if used appropriately.

Hello everyone,

I've never played M&M, but I've read the 2E rules and I'm working on a campaign in a half-hearted way. I'm curious about how increasing Power Level works in practice. I understand that the game isn't geared toward a strict "leveling" system and I'm trying not to confuse PL with the D&D experience system. But all the same, I'd like my PL to increase by a few over the story.

How does it usually work in your experience? If I were, to say, start the characters at PL 5-6 and increase the PL every few sessions to finish at 10-12, would it work out okay?

Thanks.

That can work. There are no hard and fast rules for increasing the power level of a game. Starting at PL6 is about as low as I would suggest, these types of characters tend to be more like James Bond than Batman so the game might seem more like highly capable people getting super powers.

The nice thing is that most powers only cost a few points to increase the ranks, so if you do go this route the players can save a few points for the PL increase and bump all relevent traits and effects accordingly.

late for dinner

2011-10-19, 04:01 PM

hiryuu

2011-10-19, 04:17 PM

I have a lot of questions...sorry...anyways...Regeneration is one point per rank...but if I give it a flaw of limited it subtracts one point per rank...does that mean that as long as I have that flaw, I get as many ranks of regeneration for free as I want?

No. You get 2 ranks for every 1 point at that point, then 3 for 1 if you stack on another flaw, and so on. It's in the section about stacking flaws.

Beleriphon

2011-10-19, 04:35 PM

I have a lot of questions...sorry...anyways...Regeneration is one point per rank...but if I give it a flaw of limited it subtracts one point per rank...does that mean that as long as I have that flaw, I get as many ranks of regeneration for free as I want?

No, using flaws to reduce the cost of a power (or effect) to below 1pp/rank does not make them free. What it does is give you more ranks per point.

Example:

1pp rank damage effect, using a flaw of -1/rank does not make a 0pp/rank effect. It makes it a 1/2 pp/rank. So for every point you spend, you get two ranks. This applies down to around 1/5 beyond that the power is either useless or over powered in some other way.

Pinnacle

2011-10-20, 09:17 AM

My play toys (pc's) are going to hate me...once I finish my super villain, i will post it and get some oppinions...als in regards to my first question...is one pl 14 guy too much for 3 pl 10s to take on...providing that he has minions as well?

The book, sadly, doesn't give much of an opinion on that. As noted, it can vary with the capabilities of the PCs and the villains.

I have found this (http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?p=774749#p774749) potentially-useful system, though it's a fan-made one on the official message boards (http://www.atomicthinktank.com/).
Let's see, for PL 10 PCs a PL 14 villain is a Challenge Rank of 14-19, and for three of them that's somewhere between Danger Rank 5 and 6.
Rank 5 is "Severe Danger; The PCs are going to be outmatched and without very clever gameplay and teamwork, they're more likely than not going to lose"
and Rank 6 is "Overwhelming Danger; the PCs are very likely to lose the encounter, and only tremendous luck or playing at the top of their game can see them through".
That's without the minions. Probably a little on the tough side for beginner players :smallwink:, but Hero Points, advantageous situation, or abilities that give them an edge over this particular villain (superheroes often have a rock/paper/scissors kinda thing going on, after all) could even it out.

Tengu_temp

2011-10-21, 02:59 PM

I don't think if a PL 14 villain is too much for 3 PL 10 player characters. For example, my latest fight had 7 PL 10 PCs (one of whom is a non-combatant and two of whom joined in the middle of battle) and two PL 10 NPC sidekicks against a PL 15 major villain, four PL 11-12 minor villains and over 30 PL 8-9 minions. They did well, even though the dice hated them, and the fight was an awesome victory for the good guys. Though it's worth noting that they started the battle at 2 Hero Points each, they gained more during the fight as the main villain used Villain Points, and that was a mecha fight (and mecha have advantages in comparison to normal characters).

Nerd-o-rama

2011-10-21, 04:06 PM

True, it was a mecha fight, but the PL 15 guy was Char. That's got to negate all the normal advantages of being in a mech for players.

Tengu_temp

2011-10-21, 04:11 PM

A Char and an evil Sho Hayami villain. Don't forget that.

Also, healing is much more problematic for mecha than normal characters, and healing often tends to be one of the biggest advantages PC groups bring to fights with NPCs, seeing that you can bring someone KO'd back to the fight with a single full-round action and all.

Starsign

2011-10-21, 04:16 PM

Unless the players are new to the game, taking on a PL 14 at PL 10 isn't all that much of a hurdle (unless the GM is an optimizing mastermind, then... :smalleek:).

To put something in perspective, in one game I was in, we took on a PL 15 at PL 8 and won. Specifically only three people did anything, a flying brick to stun via Strike, and two others who rolled well on their Strike/Blast attacks. Took about 2 turns :smalltongue:

Another one was a PL 14 when we we're still at PL 10. Wasn't AS anticlimatic but it was still rather one-sided in our favor (the foe only managed to Villain Point being stunned, teleport away, summon a giant stone creature, and run a round before losing). We WE'RE pretty optimized players though (that and/or really lucky), and we we're using the standard FC Book statistics for our foes (Ragnarok and Malador respectively), which for the most part, are pretty mediocre, if not outright pathetic.

Darklord Bright

2011-10-22, 09:18 PM

Beleriphon

2011-10-27, 01:55 PM

Our 3 or so PL 10 guys in our first game couldn't take down a PL12, and I was playing a speedster with a huge dodge bonus and a decent attack power. Heck, I one solo'd an entire warehouse full of guys in 3 rounds without taking a hit. But this one PL12? I couldn't hit him on my best rolls using any of my tricks. Even with help.

So basically, it's a case-by-case basis.

This is very true. The best thing to look at when determining whether a particular bad guy is strong enough or too strong is the capabilities of the group.

For example if the bad guy has some kind of massive toughness trade-off and the group has a huge to-hit trade off as a whole (ie. they have low damage high to-hit scores) then they'll constantly be tagging the badguy but likely never actually damaging him. If the bad guy as a really low Reflex then targetting that is useful, but only if the characters have some that targets Reflex, or they can reasonably be expected to stunt such and effect.

Volthawk

2011-10-27, 03:39 PM

Yeah, due to how flexible M&M is, plain power level isn't the only determining factor for how dangerous someone is in comparison to anoter person. What powers/abilities the characters have are at least as important, if not even more important.

Quertus

2011-10-31, 02:00 PM

My play toys (pc's) are going to hate me...once I finish my super villain, i will post it and get some oppinions...als in regards to my first question...is one pl 14 guy too much for 3 pl 10s to take on...providing that he has minions as well?

As a player, if I saw a shapeshifting plant villain, I'd probably try fire, cold, or weed-poison based attacks, if I had them, hoping it would be vulnerable to such. Failing that, weed-eaters, or other Slashing damage would be my preference. If I knew it was a final boss scenario / felt like he was way more powerful than us, I'd probably hero-point to make such be nearby if I didn't have them myself.

Of course, as a character, if I had a sacred hammer of foo passed down for the past N generations, handed to me by my father on his deathbed, I might use that, and only that, forget about tactics.

So, the question is, what tactics do you expect the players to use, how do their stats compare with its, how do their powers and options mesh with its strengths and vulnerabilities? Assuming players and villain all have maxed-out attack+effect / defense+resist values, it's an OK (tough) fight at face value. If the planned Entangle is targeted on close-quarters heroes with all low Reflex saves, they might be in trouble. If the villain has a low Will save vs. the party's intangible telepath, they just win. The aforementioned rock-scissors-paper effect can trump minor power level discrepancies.

Also, what are the consequences of failure? If failing against this boss simply means that he completes stage 1 of his plans, then run him strong, and don't be bothered if he wins. If he's going to capture the heroes, that happens sometimes - judge the mood of the players for how they would respond to this. If he would take over the world or kill all the PCs... still can work in some games, but you need the right group for that. One group went through 3 TPKs (different superhero system, IIRC) before they got the balance right, but they enjoyed the learning experience. Different people like different things.

Have the PCs fought the minions before? In comparable or greater numbers? Are there any tricks to fighting them, and the the PCs know said tricks?

Bwahahahaha - players wake up after fight, surprised to still be alive. Little do they know, the villain was actually after them, to infect them with psychoactive spores, effectively giving him ESP to anywhere they go. As they fight this surprisingly-knowledgeable recurring villain's minions, they come to learn their weakness - that they slowly lose power when not exposed to direct sunlight. Etc. etc.

healing often tends to be one of the biggest advantages PC groups bring to fights with NPCs, seeing that you can bring someone KO'd back to the fight with a single full-round action and all.

Personally, I like to spend the extra points to get my healing as a free action ;) Yeah, sure, it then costs 5/rank instead of 2 (before other modifiers), but it's worth it, especially if I can take it as an alternate power of a slower-but-more-powerful version of Heal, or as an alternate power of Magic.

Ooh, general M&M discussion thread. Been waiting for this one :smallbiggrin:

So when it comes to powers with extreme versatility, such as Object Mimicry, Mental Shapeshift, Physical Shapeshift, Mimic, Nemesis, and Variable Power (Eep :smalleek:), how many ranks do you usually put in for your character or how much would you limit ranks of such powers to the players' characters? I myself haven't really played a character with one of those powers so I was wondering about it.

Variable Power - is this from 3rd Edition? I've glanced at the other editions, but only really worked with 2nd Edition. Is Variable Power as good as I'm thinking? Like, I don't have to spend 1 point to take "Create Flowers" as an alternate power to Magic; instead, I just have a Variable Power that lets me do whatever I want (within the limits of its power level) when I need it? Sounds awesome as a player (and awesome to make magician (etc) NPCs with lots of little abilities) - has anyone found it to be broken / abusive?

Beleriphon

2011-10-31, 02:21 PM

Variable Power - is this from 3rd Edition? I've glanced at the other editions, but only really worked with 2nd Edition. Is Variable Power as good as I'm thinking? Like, I don't have to spend 1 point to take "Create Flowers" as an alternate power to Magic; instead, I just have a Variable Power that lets me do whatever I want (within the limits of its power level) when I need it? Sounds awesome as a player (and awesome to make magician (etc) NPCs with lots of little abilities) - has anyone found it to be broken / abusive?

No, Variable is from 2nd Edition. Its found in the core rules under Shapeshift, and explicitly named Variable in Ultimate Power. UP provided a few rules tweaks to the use, but its basically Shapeshift without any restrictions. It starts at 4pp/rank and there are options up to 8pp/rank, which is the I do what I want power, and can effectively give a character any abilities, traits, effects, feats, etc. at will.

Variable can be tremendously broken, only because it can do so very much. That said if a player sticks to the lower cost versions they tend to have more limits but should still be carefully monitored.

Tengu_temp

2011-10-31, 04:48 PM

Personally, I like to spend the extra points to get my healing as a free action ;) Yeah, sure, it then costs 5/rank instead of 2 (before other modifiers), but it's worth it, especially if I can take it as an alternate power of a slower-but-more-powerful version of Heal, or as an alternate power of Magic.

I'd never allow this, just like I never allow buying free action attacks (or even move action). Just regeneration is overpowered enough already.

Nerd-o-rama

2011-11-01, 09:43 AM

I dunno, I might allow it but restrict it to once a turn. Basically turn it into how healing tends to work in D&D 4e (minor actions when it's not a rider on damage effects).

The Boz

2011-11-01, 09:55 AM

I think the system is fun, but the players REALLY need to keep themselves in check. A lot. The rules, powers and costs are very freeform, and not balanced in any way.
How is telekinetic strength more efficient per point than simple, raw strength? Why are blanket immunities so cheap? Why is shapeshifting 1:1?

hiryuu

2011-11-01, 10:32 AM

I think the system is fun, but the players REALLY need to keep themselves in check. A lot. The rules, powers and costs are very freeform, and not balanced in any way.

Yeah, the system being so transparent as to how it's put together can be as much of a hassle as much as it creates a great environment. It works really well when you have a good group with a lot of trust, and everyone knows the throttle.

How is telekinetic strength more efficient per point than simple, raw strength? Why are blanket immunities so cheap? Why is shapeshifting 1:1?

Telekinetics is just Super Strength with the Ranged extra and the action moved to Sustained, that's how. Note that in order for it to do everything a Strength score would do, you've got to slap more points and extras into it.

Immunities can get cheap because descriptors are easy to change, and there's always more powers to effect someone.

Shapeshifting is actually 8 points for every 5 you get out of it.

Starsign

2011-11-01, 12:46 PM

Yeah, the system being so transparent as to how it's put together can be as much of a hassle as much as it creates a great environment. It works really well when you have a good group with a lot of trust, and everyone knows the throttle.

Agreed. When you have a group that knows what each other are doing, it really shows in the game. :smallbiggrin:

Now if I may ask, is there an advantage to take Force Field over Protection? The former has the same cost and comes with Sustained duration instead of Permanent. Force Field seems a little redundant to bother with, but then again I've forgotten what UP says about it so it could just be me.

RandomLunatic

2011-11-01, 12:49 PM

Beleriphon

2011-11-01, 01:53 PM

As a Sustained power, Force Field can be boosted with Extra Effort when the fit really hits the shan while Protection cannot. It also fits certain concepts better.

But you are right, Protection really is the better of the two options.

You can also power stunt off of Force Field but you can't with permanent protection. So there is that.

Quertus

2011-11-02, 10:44 AM

I'd never allow this, just like I never allow buying free action attacks (or even move action). Just regeneration is overpowered enough already.

I dunno, I might allow it but restrict it to once a turn. Basically turn it into how healing tends to work in D&D 4e (minor actions when it's not a rider on damage effects).

Bingo. Lots of systems/games/etc you might want to emulate with M&M have "free-action" healing. Good point about limiting it to once per round, though.

I just thought it was odd to talk about healing as a full-round action in a system in which that really is not a given.

Edit: Which is to say, healing as a free action is not broken in and of itself - it works fine in a number of other systems - and is allowed under the rules. If it doesn't fit the feel of the game you're running (or playing in), don't use it, but don't forget that it is part of the rules. ;) I guess I've done as much with M&M with emulating other systems as I have playing it as itself, so I appreciate the flexibility of the rules.

Agreed. When you have a group that knows what each other are doing, it really shows in the game. :smallbiggrin:

Now if I may ask, is there an advantage to take Force Field over Protection? The former has the same cost and comes with Sustained duration instead of Permanent. Force Field seems a little redundant to bother with, but then again I've forgotten what UP says about it so it could just be me.

Same disadvantage every Permanent power has - you can't turn it off. You've caught some terrible disease, but at the hospital, they can't take your blood or give you shots, because they can't get through your Protection. Heaven forbid you ever need surgery.

Edit: Sorry, meant to ask: what do you mean by "when you have a group that knows what each other are doing" in regard to the system being transparent both being a hassle and creating a great environment? Are you saying that, in your experience, players understand each other (and the villains?) better in M&M than in most other systems, and that this changes the feel of the game?

Jerthanis

2011-11-02, 04:02 PM

What are the overall opinions on 3rd Edition M&M? I own and have used 2nd edition in several games and I've been wondering if I should pick up the newer edition. Paging through the book at the store didn't really give me a good overview of the changes... it seemed like there were new stats, furthering it from the d20/D&D roots, but that the basic 'balance increased accuracy with decreased damage, increased defense with decreased toughness' paradigm was mostly intact. Is there an overall consensus over whether it's an improvement or not over the 2nd Edition mechanics and if so, if those improvements are worth $40?

tensai_oni

2011-11-02, 08:28 PM

Is there an overall consensus over whether it's an improvement or not over the 2nd Edition mechanics and if so, if those improvements are worth $40?

Improvement, yes. Worth 40 dollars? No.
If it's your first M&M, buy it over 2nd ed by all means. But if you already have 2nd edition sourcebooks, save yourself money.

Edit: Which is to say, healing as a free action is not broken in and of itself - it works fine in a number of other systems - and is allowed under the rules. If it doesn't fit the feel of the game you're running (or playing in), don't use it, but don't forget that it is part of the rules. ;)

It's a part of rules, but if you play Mutants and Masterminds as 100% RAW then it's so easy to break it's not even funny. Healing in other systems works even if it's a free action because there are other limitations, like only one free action a turn or limited number of heals. In M&M you can make a healing power that is free AND has no limitations. There is no way any sane DM could allow this.

Same disadvantage every Permanent power has - you can't turn it off. You've caught some terrible disease, but at the hospital, they can't take your blood or give you shots, because they can't get through your Protection. Heaven forbid you ever need surgery.

No. Healing doesn't deal damage so toughness checks are not an issue. "You cannot turn it off" for passive boosts is the same disadvantage as "always have to attack at full power" for damaging powers. That is, no disadvantage at all. The real disadvantage of Permanent powers is that you cannot boost them with extra effort. This was said already, it was also said that this still makes Force Field bad compared to Protection.

Nerd-o-rama

2011-11-03, 08:08 AM

It's a part of rules, but if you play Mutants and Masterminds as 100% RAW then it's so easy to break it's not even funny. Healing in other systems works even if it's a free action because there are other limitations, like only one free action a turn or limited number of heals. In M&M you can make a healing power that is free AND has no limitations. There is no way any sane DM could allow this.

If you play M&M as 100% RAW, then the GM is still free to veto any overpowered power. That's part of the rules as written.

Sorry to italicize the obvious there, but this idea that having a Game Master do his job is somehow outside the normal scope of the rules is one of my pet peeves in gaming discussion, and it is even more untrue of Mutants & Masterminds than it is of certain popular fantasy games that I've given up having civil discussions about.

Pinnacle

2011-11-03, 10:37 AM

Same disadvantage every Permanent power has - you can't turn it off. You've caught some terrible disease, but at the hospital, they can't take your blood or give you shots, because they can't get through your Protection. Heaven forbid you ever need surgery.
All Protection does, ruleswise, is give you a bonus to Toughness. It may or may not make it difficult or impossible to do those things, depending on your descriptors.
Super-tough skin? Made of stone? Probably can't give you a shot.
Incredible ability to act despite pain and injury? Made of goo? Some degree of instantaneous healing that makes it difficult to do you lasting harm? Can, easily.
Given that, I'd call it a Complication if your descriptor prevented something beneficial.

What are the overall opinions on 3rd Edition M&M? I own and have used 2nd edition in several games and I've been wondering if I should pick up the newer edition. Paging through the book at the store didn't really give me a good overview of the changes... it seemed like there were new stats, furthering it from the d20/D&D roots, but that the basic 'balance increased accuracy with decreased damage, increased defense with decreased toughness' paradigm was mostly intact. Is there an overall consensus over whether it's an improvement or not over the 2nd Edition mechanics and if so, if those improvements are worth $40?
I like it. I think it's an improvement. Whether you think it's enough of improvement to buy new books is more of a matter of opinion.
I bought a pdf of the DCA Hero's Handbook and a hardcopy of the MnM one. The MnM one is cheaper since it's softcover (and I think it's a little smaller), and GR pdfs are about half price.

"You cannot turn it off" for passive boosts is the same disadvantage as "always have to attack at full power" for damaging powers. That is, no disadvantage at all.
As written it's not, but I tend to think that some degree of pulling your punches so you don't kill people is assumed as part of the genre. So the rules say you won't accidentally kill somebody or do more damage than you wanted to.
It if somebody wanted a full power restriction on damage, I might allow it with the understanding that this normal rule doesn't apply--hit a common thug with a full-power blast and you might kill outright.

Doorhandle

2011-11-05, 04:28 AM

Simultaneously going off AND on topic, What are the general sorts things every character should have?

Belial_the_Leveler

2011-11-05, 08:51 AM

Four things every character needs;

1) Interesting personality and flavor. From the player's perspective that is; build a character you want to play and love to interact as and you'll help the campaign come to life. This is especially true in PbP games where players get easily bored between posts and games might die due to that.

2) Power at least within the ballpark of other people in the group. And by power, I mean impact to and overall usefulness in the campaign.

3) A power niche; an area where your character can shine more than everybody else in the group, whatever that may be.

4) The clearest and most effective build for your points/level. If the same ability can be done in many ways but one of them is better and stronger, go for it when building the character. This is NOT power gaming - it helps roleplayers more than it does anybody else. I've seen many people that play skilled, charismatic or intelligent characters flavor-wise but can't actually put lots of points in skills, Presence or Intellect because their other powers take up all the points. A more effective build leaves points and gives you more options - and thus it is always better regardless of whether you roleplay or powergame.

EDIT:
In 3e M&M, healing is limited to 1/turn and it is far costlier to make powers into non-action. Balance in general has been overhauled - though there are still problems.

Pinnacle

2011-11-05, 10:13 AM

If you're new to the system, there's something you might overlook because it isn't well (or at all, really) explained in the book.

You're expected to hit some of your Power Level caps. That isn't to say that a character who doesn't quite hit them all will be terribly weak, but it is the standard.
Take a look at the archetypes. You'll see that (ignoring the Mimic, who's expected to get some power from the characters he/she's mimicking after all) all of them hit, or at least are very close to, some of their caps.
Not Skills, obviously, since not all heroes specialize in any Skill and none specialize in all Skills. But their Toughness and defense, and at least one attack--these are the numbers that define how powerful you are after all, so they're a little relevant to your Power Level. Different superheroes do different things, but with only a very few exceptions they can all fight. They just do it in different ways.
So yeah, I know when something says that it's the highest I'm allowed to have, I tend to think that I'm not supposed to hit the limit most of the time, and I'm sure I'm not alone. But in this case, you are.

Differentiation between characters comes from different levels of tradeoffs, not whether they hit their caps at all. Powerhouse types will be tougher and do more damage, but have lower attack and defense bonuses; super-skilled non-powered characters will tend to be the other way around.

Doorhandle

2011-11-05, 04:10 PM

I had got the impression that hitting all the caps was necessity.
I was more thinking like "Should everyone have a travel power?"
Or "Any skills I should have?"

Starsign

2011-11-05, 04:29 PM

Usually hitting caps it a good idea; not always, but usually a good idea. It may ultimately depend on the player and GM whether you should hit it or not, but I always assume that it's a good idea unless there are plenty of other combat oriented characters too (I myself still need to play a character that hasn't hit their caps yet plays wonderfully :smallredface:)

EDIT: Now as for a travel power, it isn't always required. So long as the entire party has a good way to get around, it should never be a problem. As for skills, it depends on your character. I'd usually get what best fits my character but I always feel Notice, Listen, and Sense Motive take a bit of a higher priority over other skills. :smallsmile:

4) The clearest and most effective build for your points/level. If the same ability can be done in many ways but one of them is better and stronger, go for it when building the character. This is NOT power gaming - it helps roleplayers more than it does anybody else. I've seen many people that play skilled, charismatic or intelligent characters flavor-wise but can't actually put lots of points in skills, Presence or Intellect because their other powers take up all the points. A more effective build leaves points and gives you more options - and thus it is always better regardless of whether you roleplay or powergame.

So very agree with this :smallbiggrin:

Sophistemon

2011-11-05, 05:37 PM

Drascin

2011-11-05, 06:21 PM

I'd usually get what best fits my character but I always feel Notice, Listen, and Sense Motive take a bit of a higher priority over other skills. :smallsmile:

This is important. Make sure at least someone in the party has high Notice. Seriously. If I counted the times I've seen a lowly ninja minion escape with the macguffing from the supermen because nobody in the party actually had more than a +1 to Notice... :smallbiggrin:

Deadmeat.GW

2011-11-06, 08:07 AM

Lol, I know, I made my powerlvl 10 shapeshifter a specialist in super senses and tracking, the amounts of times I have seen nobody able to find, spot or follow the baddies is staggering.

Beleriphon

2011-11-06, 03:52 PM

How have I gone this long without noticing this thread?

And I missed the discussion about Object Mimicry, too...

Hey, any chance you guys could help me with something related?

I know that there's a character in one of the books that uses Object Mimicry. I know that he wears a white suit, and that the suit has a word on the chest, but I can't remember what his name is or what book he appears in. Does anyone here know?

I'd love to have an example of how the game-makers use the power, because I've got a character concept I'd like to try.

Do you know which edition it was, I have most of the Freedom City related books from 2nd Edition in either hard copy or PDF (legit PDF for those that care). Do you know what else was in the book? Was it all character builds, or was it more like a campaign setting book? Anything you can do to describe the character you recall will help, since I don't remember that particular picture.

3rd Edition really only has a few books, and 43 $0.99 Threat Reports that detail 43+ characters (plus for the fact that some reports include up to four characters).

Sophistemon

2011-11-06, 08:22 PM

It was definitely probably Second Edition, and not in the Hero High-related books, because I checked those first off.

Sorry, I know that doesn't really narrow it down. I tried doing an Internet search for a bunch of keywords, but I couldn't turn anything up with that, either.

I might just have to go through everything I have, a book at a time, a page at a time, until I find it. Ugh, that's irritating.

EDIT

I remember the character had his back to a brick wall, and was touching it so that one arm was turning into brick, and in the other arm he was holding a rusted metal pipe, so that that arm was turning into rusted metal. Other than that, the character was dressed in a featureless white costume, with a white mask, with a word in black on the chest. I think the word said 'Temp', but I can't be sure.

EDIT

Hold up! He makes an appearance on page 162 of the Core Rulebook. The word on his chest is 'HERO', not 'Temp'. It doesn't say anything about him, though; just shows him leaping into combat. It also shows him holding a metal pipe.

EDIT

The character's name is Knock-Off (http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR_I6Y2MuK11J2EtxKLrkD7wYpynzJxz LIRb7QVtik4yj7UVkLv). I found a homebrew build on Atomic Think Tank (http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=26560&start=2205#p696318) that has his powers as "Object Mimicry 10 (Extra: Extra Subject)" but I'd still like to see his actual appearance in a book. He's mentioned by name in Crooks! but I did a Ctrl-F search and couldn't find him. He also shows up in the copyright information at least a few of the books, including the Core Rulebook and the Mastermind's Manual.

EDIT

I'm being told that Knock-Off was a First Edition character. Is it possible that I just saw a homebrew build for Second Edition and then just mis-remembered it as being in a book? ... if so, I'm sorry that I've wasted your time. I could swear that I saw real stats for him, somewhere. And he's mentioned in other Second Edition books, so there's got to be official stats for him somewhere.

Doorhandle

2011-11-07, 01:18 AM

No, pretty sure Knock-Off or whatever he was called is was in there.

I have the book, I would know.

He seems pretty badass. I wish to know more.

Beleriphon

2011-11-07, 05:09 PM

I'm being told that Knock-Off was a First Edition character. Is it possible that I just saw a homebrew build for Second Edition and then just mis-remembered it as being in a book? ... if so, I'm sorry that I've wasted your time. I could swear that I saw real stats for him, somewhere. And he's mentioned in other Second Edition books, so there's got to be official stats for him somewhere.

Knock-Off is a Meta-4 character and not owned by GR. I'm pretty sure we wont see him updated any time soon to 2nd or 3rd Edition M&M. Too bad really, he looks cool.

That said, I think there are a few Threat Reports that feature mimicers, but I'm missing about half of them so I can't be sure. I'll see what I can dig up.

Uin

2011-11-09, 10:29 AM

Nothing especially pertinent to contribute other than to say I'm a big Mutants and Masterminds fan. I GM for a group now and, like any GM, long to play something I create. Here is the last hero I concocted; an attempt to make a Batman-style character more believable. A tough task with PL10/150pp limits. I'm terrible at thinking up snappy super-hero names but the influences are clear; Elijah Snow of Planetary fame and any of the Batgirl and Robin extended family.
Abilities 72pp
STR 03 STA 03 AGI 07 DEX 02
FGT 12 INT 06 WIS 02 PRE 01

Skills 33pp
Acrobatics 12 (5),
Athletics 6 (3),
Close:Unarmed 15 (3)
Expertise:Business 12 (6),
Expertise:History 14 (8),
Investigate 14 (8),
Perception 4 (2),
Ranged:Thrown 15 (13),
Sense Motive 4 (2)
Stealth 12 (5),
Technology 14 (8)
Vehicles 5 (3)

Advantages 16pp
Equipment 6, Inventor, Power Attack, Quickdraw, Skill Mastery:Investigate, Takedown, Wealth 4

Powers 4pp
Century Girl: Immortality 3 (1 week), Immunity 1 (Aging)

Offense
Initiative +7
Close +15, Unarmed +5 (DC20)
Ranged +15, Discs +5 (DC20)
Ranged +15, Gas +5 (DC15 v Fort)

Defense 26pp
Parry 15 (3), Dodge 15 (8)
Toughness 5, Fort 8 (5), Will 12 (10)

Equipment (30ep)
Armoured Costume 2ep (Toughness 2)
Armoured Knuckles 2ep (Strength-based Close Damage 2)
Zip-Line 2ep (Swinging Movement 1)
Flashlight 1ep
Utility Belt
-Hallucinogenic Gas Discs (Ranged Affliction 5) 10ep
-Razor Throwing Discs (Strength-based Ranged Damage 2) 1ep
-Plastic Explosive (Ranged Area Damage 10, Distracting, Limited:Objects) 1ep
-Smoke Burst (Concealment 4, All Visual) 1ep
Vehicles
-Motorbike 10ep

Complications
Secret Identity: Stephanie Snow, CEO of Century Technology.
Rivals: Business rivals from outwith and within Century Technology are frustrated with Ms Snow's management and absense from the boardroom when in costume.
Loner: Stephanie is not used to working with others and often fails in teamwork checks.

Stephanie Snow was born on the stroke of midnight that ushered in the 20th Century. Mysteriously she possesses remarkable longevity and the inability to die. She discovered this when becoming a masked vigilante in the '40s. Overconfident, she mistook her prime appearance for physical competance and paid dearly. Cold-War suspicions put rest to any masked heroic ideals. Instead Stephanie invested heavily in the emerging technologies of the time. With the fall of old political superpowers and a fortune earned, Stephanie saw the opportunity to once again wear a costume, taking her time training and inventing for the best part of a decade. Now aged 111, Stephanie is living her "5th life" as the CEO of new start Century Technology and protects Emerald City under the guise of XXX.Yes, I totally "cheated" with the modified plastic explosives.

Beleriphon

2011-11-13, 02:52 AM

That looks pretty good. I'll run through it some more detail in a bit, but over all it looks reasonable.

Sophistemon

2011-11-15, 05:00 PM

Beleriphon

2011-11-16, 08:35 PM

How would adding the 'Precise' feat to Object Mimicry effect the power?

I know that it makes attack powers more accurate, but would it affect the way the power mimics objects?

Or is the player/character allowed to mimic more than just the most visible physical properties?

Precise, like the flat bonus Precise? That shouldn't have any direct affect on on accuracy of an attack. Precise makes powers able to be used precisely, Create can now create exact statues of particular people as opposed to a basic geometric shape, Superman can laser vision open handcuff's without cutting of Jimmy's hand, Cyclops can spot weld the inside of a ships hull, etc.

On object mimicry (assuming you're using some kind of Variable effect) you'd get whatever the effect gets you. If you want to pick and choose you'd probably want Selective. As I read Precise I don't think it would necessarily do anything.

Sophistemon

2011-11-17, 01:21 AM

Ah, well, there you go.

I'll take a closer look at Selective.

When I said 'Accuracy', I was... You know, I'm not really sure what I meant by that.

Probably something to do with the 'eye-beams not cutting off peoples' hands' thing.

Sorry!

Tengu_temp

2011-11-17, 09:05 AM

Cyclops can spot weld the inside of a ships hull, etc.

But his eye beams are supposed to be concussion blasts!

Starsign

2011-11-17, 09:09 AM

But his eye beams are supposed to be concussion blasts!

Since when has Marvel relied on canon? :smalltongue:

Beleriphon

2011-11-22, 10:21 PM

But his eye beams are supposed to be concussion blasts!

Fine, fine. Firestorm can use the incredible powers of Atomic Radiation Stuff to spot weld the inside of a ship's hull shut.

negativity 101

2011-11-30, 06:10 PM

Would someone help judge my character concept for a power level 8 2nd edition campaign.
The theme for the campaign is street heroes/antiheroes and we will likely start with the bank robbery scenario from the core book.

Since I have run that scenario before (for mostly the same group actually) and since I am the only one in the group who has actually GM'ed M&M and knows some of the stuff that will be used, I am looking to mostly be a support/scout/enabler character and will take my fun from trying to escape from the situations the others will surely drag me into.

This will be my first time as a player btw.

My character is the "Boy of Tomorrow!".
A teenager from the 32th century who has travled backwards in time trying to prevent the Y2K crisis, which he believes put humanity 200 years backwards in time in regards to technological advances. Something went wrong and he arrived instead in the year 2011, where he discovers that the Y2K crisis wasn't really as bad as his history books said and now his time machine is broke.
Still, full of innocence and idealism, he still seeks to help people... Just as soon as they stop looking at him funny. And no one wants to take his money, which he so painstakingly had gathered, authentic money, printed in 1999 by the state of Monopoly. And now it rains and he can't find the weather adjustment controls.
Life in the 21th century is actually pretty bad.

And this should be where he starts, chatting up an ATM at the bank, as it's one of the more sophisticated machines that he has found.

Now for the stats.

The Boy of Tomorrow
Zet Rogan
Power points: 120 (125)

Str. 10
Dex. 10
Con. 10
Int. 18
Wis. 10
Cha. 10

Skills: 24 PP = 96 skill points (24x4=96)
Computers - 13
Concentration - 5
Craft:
- chemical - 7
- electronic -over 9000
- mechanical 7
- structural 3
Disable device - 10
Investigate - 10
Medicine - 9
Notice - 10
Pilot - 5
Search - 10

Feats. 9 PP
Eidetic memory
Inventor
Jack of all trades
Luck x 2
Master plan
Improvised tools
Teamwork x2

Powers: 85 PP

Communication (wi-fi) 5 (5x2+1) = 12 PP
Extra: area wide
Feat:
- selective
- subtle x1

Comprehend 5 (5x2) = 10 PP
- languages x3 (speak and read all languages)
- machines x2 (speak and understand)

Datalink 5 (5x1+1) = 6 PP
Feat:
Machine control

Device 3 (easy to take away) (3x3) = 9 PP
Airboard (3x5) = +15 PP
- Flight 3 (3x1) = 3 PP
- flaw: gliding (-1)
- Force field 6 (6x1/2) = 3 PP
- flaw: ablative (-1)
- Teleport 4 (4x1) = 4 PP
- flaw: Short range (-1)

Device 7 (7x4) = 28 PP
- Timewatching watch (7x5) = +35 PP
- time control 5 (5x7) = 35 PP

Device 4 (4x4) = 16
Mirror shades (4x5) = +20 PP
Supersenses (20x1) = 20 PP
- Detect (tech) x 3 (free action, at a range)
- Direction
- Distance sense
- Infravision
- Microscopic vision x4
- Radio
- Time sense
- Tracking
- Ultra hearing
- Ultra vision
- X-ray vision x4
- Acute sight

Device 1 (easily to take away) (1x3) 3 PP
Pill generating belt (1x5) = +5 PP
immunity (starvation and thirst) (1x1) = 1 PP
Healing 2 (2x2) = 4 PP

Wealth bonus: +0 (+2 PP)
Drawback: Weakness: Physical violence (+3 PP)
Complications:
Innocent of the ways of the 20th century
Hatred: malfunctioning machines.

Criticism/thoughts?

tensai_oni

2011-11-30, 09:54 PM

I think you may have gone too far. There is support, and then there is being as useful in a fight as a random civilian passerby. You have Teamwork 2, yes - but with +0 to attack, your Aid actions will fail 45% of the time. And with no saving throw bonuses and defense of a PL 3 character (+6 toughness, +0 defense), you won't try to get into the middle of battle to aid friends anyway, but rather hide somewhere safe so enemies won't OHKO you.

There's a lot of combat in M&M, especially if the flavor is vanilla superheroes, or anti-heroes like in your game. But if you want to be a non-combatant, that's fair enough. Just make sure that both the game master and other players are okay with this.

Just so you know, there are alternatives to contributing in a fight other than damage options. You can be a crowd controller via some powers like Darkness Control or Confusion, or even social abilities, or you can be a healer. I am sure there is more options but that was what I had straight off the top of my head.

Also I like your justification for having +0 wealth, but if playing this character you should make sure the game master is fine with this. Even those who use wealth rules sometimes don't like players lowering theirs, calling it free points.

negativity 101

2011-12-01, 08:34 PM

Thank you for the reply :)

Looking back, I see your point about being as helpful as a civilian. Or maybe more like a minion (yes I have an inflated sense of self-esteem. please don't poke it too hard).

I have no problem being a non-combatant and this character is created with this in mind. But I do make a point of not being useless in a fight. So as per your suggestion I'll look into some supportive powers. Any suggestions for the concept besides those already mentioned? Would also like inspiration for cool stunts that could be attempted with said powers.

Also, I will probably keep the defenses down, as I like the idea of having to be inventive to my approach to fighting. If it fails dramatically, the GM is probably kind enough to let me realocate my points. Also I believe that I may be one of the only people in my group who would be content to play random NPCs or maybe one of the villains, while my character is out cold/abducted/something else.

I believe he is cool with the +0 wealth bonus, but will check with him. Mostly it'll be a hindrance since I expect I'll try my hand at inventing stuff and have to procure the materials somehow. Spending hero-points to go without will be the start, but I have to get some means of disposable income at some point, which will probably be a plot point for my character in how he copes with it and the 21th century.

Also, it might bear mention that while I have gamed with this group for several years, this will be the first time that the GM.. Well Game Masters. So everything is a bit untested at the moment, but will hopefully turn out alright.
That is also one of the reasons I don't mind being a noncombatant, as it will make it easier for him if my character can kinda spring in to help when needed in battle, instead of all of us trying new stunts every turn. I might be wrong in this, and time will tell.
He is also keeping us in the dark about what everyone else is playing, so I don't know if everyone else is making a smashy-smashy character or if all of us will be from the future. I suspect one of the players will make something that will be brutal in combat (and little else) as this is his modus operandi. But hopefully the other players will be a little more varied in their concepts.

But thanks again for replying (and hopefully for replying again). And sorry for the massive wall of text this post turned out to be.

tensai_oni

2011-12-01, 10:37 PM

Even with inventive approach to fighting you still need defenses that are better than paper-thin...

Anyway, here's how you can contribute to combat non-violently. First skills:

-Bluff is very good. You can feint, divert and trick opponents. Especially the last one is great because possibilities are endless. But it requires you to have good defense because its effects work only if the enemy misses. Feint is not too useful on its own if you don't fight, but see feats below.
-Intimidate can debuff the enemy, but it's so-so. Other things do this better.
-Diplomacy by default cannot be used in combat.

Feats:

-Distract is great! With enough points in Bluff or Intimidate, you can effectively stunlock a single enemy.
-Fascinate doesn't work in combat, but it can help you avoid combat.
-Inspire ranges from pretty good to terrible, depending on your charisma score and whether you have hero points to spare and power points to put into this feat. If you want it, buy at least 3 ranks or don't bother.
-Leadership is terrible. Pass!
-Master Plan is great for high-int characters. With it you always have a handy party-wide buff ready, which lasts short but takes only a few minutes to "reload". Well, maybe more if the game master thinks you're abusing this.
-Set Up lets you transfer benefits of feint to other players. Good for bluff-heavy pacifist characters.
-Skill Mastery is broken in general. Taking 10 on selected skills under any circumstances... and you get FOUR per rank? Insane.

There are also many extra feats in Mecha and Manga, like Beautiful Voice or Rousing Speech. They are also absolutely broken. If you want to use them, warm the game master in advance and don't be surprised if he says no.

Powers:

-Confuse is the strongest crowd control power, because it's a perception-range (so no attack roll) and at only 1 PP/rank. Good candidate to turn into an area power - lower range to Ranged, Area and Selective extras and it's only 2 PP/rank. Do this and face the game master's wrath as you break his game.
-Create Object lets you make impromptu barriers to seperate enemy groups or enemies from friends or hostages or whatnot.
-Darkness Control for visual concealment. Can't attack what you can't see. Relatively inexpensive PP-wise too.
-Emotion Control is Will-range so no attack roll, and lets you create a multitude of effects. Or just stick to one and have it become really cheap.
-Friction Control is funny, but expensive.
-Gravity Control will make you hated by the game master. Not because it's strong, but because he will have to open the book and check load rules constantly. Good crowd control regardless, just a frustrating one.
-Healing is good. Area healing, even better.
-Illusions are cheap and limited only by your creativity and game master's goodwill.
-Telekinesis is like Gravity Control, only moreso because you also add grappling rules into the mix.

I hope that helped.

negativity 101

2011-12-02, 04:09 PM

Beleriphon

2011-12-08, 07:49 PM

It does. Thank you.

I think I'll go for either confusion, create object (transparent walls), healing or illusions. I'll look more into depth about them when I get home to my books. i guess I'll just technobabble the reason why they work as they do.

I'll stay away from anything that takes up time with book flipping. Unfortunately theres always too much of that, so adding to it is not the solution.

But thanks for the opinions, they provided a much better overview of the options available than what I had in my mind.

Create is a great power, and I certainly recommend using that for a character not designed as an outright combat monster. That being said, do try to keep your defenses at PL, just because you aren't attacking doesn't mean the super villains will have any qualms about smooshing your character.

Delwugor

2011-12-09, 11:07 PM

I had got the impression that hitting all the caps was necessity.
I was more thinking like "Should everyone have a travel power?"
Or "Any skills I should have?"
I always have some form of travel power or super-movement. You don't need alot of ranks but without some you could end up staring at all the awesome combat going on above your head, or arrive in your vehicle 15 minutes behind everyone else.
Having some form of blast and/or ranged attack helps as well. Not necessary but somethings you don't want to get close to.
As others have said Notice is very good to have.
I always have some ranks in the luck Feat. Having the extra hero points is great for using feats and power feats on the fly.

masterjoda99

2012-02-27, 12:48 AM

In 2e Mutants and Masterminds, how would it work best to go about making an elementalist that uses all four of the available elements + electricity?

hiryuu

2012-02-27, 01:31 AM

In 2e Mutants and Masterminds, how would it work best to go about making an elementalist that uses all four of the available elements + electricity?

That's all in your descriptors, really. Just build a power array and vary the descriptors on whatever powers you feel best fit the concept. Maybe Create Object for earth-related stuff, etc. You'd probably do best just doing a flat Telekinesis power, that way you don't have to build the elemental control powers into separate limited Move Object powers (which is what the Elemental Control powers in the core book are).

_________________

So, I'm running this game now where my players are battling kaiju. One of them is a mecha pilot of awesome and win and the other one is a woman who turns into a giant wasp monster. Last session they defended the underground empire of Lemuria from SS robots piloting Nazi UFOs before traveling to San Diego to fight a monster fond of childish pranks that they've affectionately named "Trollosaurus Rex." I'm thinking aliens next. Any thoughts?

Madwand

2012-02-27, 07:13 AM

Greeting new thread!:smallsmile:

Now if I may ask, is there an advantage to take Force Field over Protection? The former has the same cost and comes with Sustained duration instead of Permanent. Force Field seems a little redundant to bother with, but then again I've forgotten what UP says about it so it could just be me.

If we speak about M&M 2ed you need to notice that Permanent power cannot have Alternate Power feats, nor can they be Alternate Powers. By extension there is no way to get them into any kind of container.

hiryuu

2012-02-27, 10:59 AM

If we speak about M&M 2ed you need to notice that Permanent power cannot have Alternate Power feats, nor can they be Alternate Powers. By extension there is no way to get them into any kind of container.

You can put permanent powers in a container. There's even several rules examples given: a guy who can turn into solid steel with Protection in a container, for example. They're just not available when the container's off, and you can't turn on or off part of them; they always try to activate when you turn on the power.

masterjoda99

2012-02-27, 04:25 PM

I was reading through the Book of Magic and Mecha and Manga, and I had a horrible idea, with little idea how to execute it (I know the basics of character creation, but anything beyond the most basic arrays still confuse me). My idea is to make a character that combines Magic power array with the Battle Form power from Mecha and Manga to gain the ability to become a super wizard. How would I manage this within the point budget of a PL 10 game?

Drascin

2012-02-27, 05:30 PM

masterjoda99

2012-02-27, 10:44 PM

Why not? If it does what I'm describing, then I'm sure I could read it over and draw some inspiration at least.

Bitter

2012-02-28, 09:16 AM

Stardust the Super Wizard is a Fletcher Hanks creation. Basically he can do everything ever and uses this power to elaborately torture criminals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stardust_the_Super_Wizard

Julian84

2012-02-28, 09:34 AM

My best friend and I have been devotees of this system for well over five years. We have both participated in and run a tidy little sum of games, and we've found this system to be easy to learn and use. We've recently started to branch away from the normal superheroics and ran a campaign based in the Fullmetal Alchemist universe, and are now currently engrossed in a campaign set in the Code Geass universe (him GMing, me playing).

Tengu_temp

2012-02-28, 01:16 PM

How would I manage this within the point budget of a PL 10 game?

I'd post advice here, but each time I try to write anything your avatar keeps distracting me. And yes, I know where it's from.

masterjoda99

2012-02-28, 03:26 PM

You could always type what you were going to say into a text file, and then just copy-paste it here, minimizing your distraction from Mah-Jong Hitler's charms.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-02-29, 02:04 PM

Stupid Sexy Jetpack Mahjong Hitler...

Tengu_temp

2012-02-29, 02:36 PM

Okay, how to make a Super Wizard. There are two ways:
1. Simply buy some basic powers on your normal form, and more complex or powerful ones on Battle Form. That way Super Wizard gives you more options.
2. Buy all your powers in normal form, but not at max ranks. Buy Boost (all powers, self-only, action [free]) on Battle Form. That way Super Wizard makes you more powerful.

Chambers

2012-03-01, 04:21 PM

My RL gaming group is going to start a M&M3e game in a few weeks and I've been playing around with Hero Lab to get an idea of the system. Of the 3 players (myself included) and the DM, I have the most experience with M&M, as I own a few of the 2e books, but I've never actually played the game.

We're doing the Emerald Knights starting adventure (so no spoilers please), so starting at PL 10. I made a Chaos/Entropy themed mage and thought I'd post him for possible critique.

Chaos Mage - PL 10

Strength 0, Stamina 0, Agility 1, Dexterity 2, Fighting 0, Intellect 1, Awareness 4, Presence 0

Advantages
Eidetic Memory, Luck 5, Precise Attack (All) 4

Skills
Close Combat: Gene Decay: Cumulative Affliction 10 10 (+10)
Insight 6 (+10)
Perception 11 (+15)
Ranged Combat: Unraveling Chaos: Burst Area Blast 10 8 (+10)

Powers
Second Sight: Senses 8 (magical, Counters Illusion: Vision, Infravision, Postcognition, Ultravision)
Aura of Unluck: Protection 10 (+10 Toughness)
Dimension Door: Teleport 10 (chaos, magical, 4 miles in a move action, carrying 50 lbs.)

Dimensional Rift: Teleport 7 (Alternate; Carry 50 lbs.; Accurate, Extended: 120 miles in 2 move actions, Portal; Activation 2: standard action, Distracting, Fades, Limited to Extended)
Entropomancer (Array)

Gene Decay: Cumulative Affliction 10 (1st degree: Fatigued, 2nd degree: Exhausted, 3rd degree: Paralyzed, Resisted by: Fortitude, DC 20; Cumulative)
Temporal Evolution: Healing 10 (Temporary)
Unraveling Chaos: Burst Area Blast 10 (chaos, entropy, DC 25; Burst Area: 30 feet radius sphere)

Offense
Initiative +1
Gene Decay: Cumulative Affliction 10, +10 (DC Fort 20)
Unraveling Chaos: Burst Area Blast 10 (DC 25)

Complications
Accident - When wielding Chaos magic unpredictable things happen.
Reputation - People don't like unpredictable mages that can unravel your existence, sometimes by accident.

Defense
Dodge 10, Parry 10, Fortitude 10, Toughness 10, Will 10

Power Points
Abilities 16 + Powers 71 + Advantages 10 + Skills 18 (35 ranks) + Defenses 35 = 150

I don't know why the DC's are different for Unraveling Chaos and Gene Decay.

Some of the powers are obvious references to other things, like Dresden's Second Sight, and the D&D style teleporting. The alternate power, Dimensional Rift, reminds me of the X-Men character Gateway. I put Fades on that power and Temporary on the Healing power for flavor reasons mostly. They are both sorta acts of creation, and while he can manipulate chaos energies to make things like that, it's only a matter of time before entropy reasserts itself.

I don't know if making the Healing Temporary will have a big impact on the game. Should I remove the tag or is it fine?

Beleriphon

2012-03-01, 04:52 PM

I don't know why the DC's are different for Unraveling Chaos and Gene Decay.

Its because one is damage and the other is an affliction. The base DC for all damage effects is 15 + Effect Rank and basically everything else is 10 + Effect Rank.

Some of the powers are obvious references to other things, like Dresden's Second Sight, and the D&D style teleporting. The alternate power, Dimensional Rift, reminds me of the X-Men character Gateway. I put Fades on that power and Temporary on the Healing power for flavor reasons mostly. They are both sorta acts of creation, and while he can manipulate chaos energies to make things like that, it's only a matter of time before entropy reasserts itself.

Fades on a power means that it loses one rank every single time you use it until it recharges, as determined by the GM. By default the power lasts one round, you can used the Sustained extra to make it active though for a longer time and then it disappears when you stop keeping it active. I'm not sure that you really want Fades on an active movement power, but that might be exactly what you want.

If you wanted to put another Flaw on their to reduce the cost you can try Tiring. It applies fatigue to use the power, but it works the same normal fatigue for Extra Effort and you can use a Hero Point to remove the fatigue level.

I don't know if making the Healing Temporary will have a big impact on the game. Should I remove the tag or is it fine?

Temporary can have a massive impact. Basically what it does is for one hour the conditions gained are lifted. Thus if you heal Strong Dude of his -11 penalty to Toughness resistance checks one hour later he has the -11 applied, plus any other accumulate conditions, again it recovers at the normal rate. This is bad if you heal somebody from near death since they return to that condition an hour later.

Chambers

2012-03-01, 05:14 PM

The Fade is on the alternate teleport power (the extended portal), so it doesn't affect his personal teleport right? I'm okay with the Fade on it, I like the RP aspect of his big effect power being subject to entropy.

Even with Fade on the teleport portal it will stay open for 1 round, right? I thought the Fade would just decrease the distance I could travel, as that's tied to rank

I think ill keep the Temporary on the Healing as it also fits with the RP. Hopefully another player will have some more permanent healing power

Pinnacle

2012-03-01, 06:00 PM

Is the Unraveling Chaos supposed to be Ranged? That means he can put the center of the Burst anywhere in range. For a Burst that comes from where he stands, you just want to leave it Close.

Let's see... You've got ranks of Ranged Combat for an area power; area powers don't have attack rolls, so those don't do anything.

Your entire attack bonus for your other attack comes from Close Combat--I know that I wouldn't like that as a GM. Why's he so good at hitting with this power, and not anything else? Since I'd think that it only requires touching the target as opposed to hitting them correctly (so it's easier), I might give the power a rank of Accurate to represent that.
And then he might want some ranks in Close Attack (or a higher Fighting score and less base Parry to compensate) to give him a little bit of hand-to-hand ability.
His only damaging attack is a non-Selective area. You might want a Blast, although he does have that cumulative Affliction.

You do have an odd number of ranks in Skills, so you could add one more for no cost.

Remember your defenses and attacks don't all have to equal 10. You can trade off between them. As a mage, he might have higher Will and lower Fortitude, or be more powerful than skilled (higher ranks in his attack powers, lower attack bonus, higher Protection and lower Dodge and Parry). That's a typical mage, though, the way you have it is fine if that's what you want. Since area attacks don't have attack rolls, they can't trade off and Unraveling Chaos is at its limit.

Particle_Man

2012-03-01, 11:01 PM

I am not playing M&M but I love the 2 DC Adventures books I have so far. I like how they glossed over the villain Dr. Light's, er, proclivities. Oddly, this makes the game accessible to a younger audience than the comic universe upon which it is based!

I have unrealizable dreams of M&M books for Astro City and the Marvel Universe, but I know that ain't gonna happen.

Beleriphon

2012-03-02, 01:49 AM

The Fade is on the alternate teleport power (the extended portal), so it doesn't affect his personal teleport right? I'm okay with the Fade on it, I like the RP aspect of his big effect power being subject to entropy.

That sounds good. To be clear, no the Fade would not affect the personal effect teleport.

Even with Fade on the teleport portal it will stay open for 1 round, right? I thought the Fade would just decrease the distance I could travel, as that's tied to rank

Fade on effects that work for more than 1 round reduce at a rate of 1 rank per round. If it were sustained, which it is not, then it would lose 1 rank per round. So each time you use the power it's going to work at a shorter and shorter range, if you're okay with that it looks cool.

I think ill keep the Temporary on the Healing as it also fits with the RP. Hopefully another player will have some more permanent healing power

Chambers

2012-03-03, 01:17 AM

Thanks for the feedback. I've been fiddling with him more, so it's a constantly evolving character at this point. Got a few questions hopefully you can answer, as I don't have the rule book (just the hero lab).

What does it mean for a power to be a Dynamic Power? How does one determine the degrees of failure (or success?) for a save?

Pinnacle

2012-03-03, 10:53 AM

What does it mean for a power to be a Dynamic Power? How does one determine the degrees of failure (or success?) for a save?

Not Dynamic Power, Dynamic Alternate Effect ("Power" instead of "Effect" in 2E, but they're the same thing and everybody would probably understand you just fine if you mixed 'em up). Dynamic means nothing outside of an array (group of AEs).
Normally an array means you can use one power at a time. If you add the Dynamic Extra ("Power Feat" in 2E) to at least two of the powers in the array (whether that be at least two AEs or at least one AE and the base power), you can use those two powers at the same time at reduced effect.

Say we compare something like

Magical Shield
Sustained Impervious Protection 5 [10]
AE: Enhanced Dodge 5 and Parry 5 [1]

to something like

Magical Shield
Dynamic Sustained Impervious Protection 5 [11]
Dynamic AE: Enhanced Dodge 5 and Parry 5 [2] (That's 1 for being an Alternate Effect and 1 for being Dynamic.)

With the first array, you can use either your Protection or your Enhanced Dodge and Parry.
With the second array, you can use all 10 points but you can mix and match the two effects.

So at first this sorceress could either get Impervious Toughness +5 or Dodge and Parry +5 out of this power (presumably to top off her caps that would otherwise be something like Toughness +7 and Dodge/Parry +8).
Later she gets more skilled and adds Dynamic with earned Power Points. Now she can still do that, but she can also mix up the points if she prefers a more balanced approach at the time--say gaining Impervious Protection 3 (6 points) and Enhanced Dodge/Parry 2 (4 points).

Since you only use one attack at a time anyway, you probably don't need to bother with Dynamic attack powers, but nothing's stopping you. Utility mostly, maybe some defense (as in my example). So for the most part it'll have no effect on the resistance check of a power. That said, if you do have a Dynamic attack, the DC will fluctuate with the rank; it has no effect beyond that.
Maybe a Dynamic Flight/Force Field array. This character normally wouldn't want to fly in combat, but could put just a few points into Flight and keep the rest in the Force Field if he had to.

nihil8r

2012-03-03, 02:17 PM

how easy is it to use the m&m rules for a fantasy game? can you use miniatures and a grid with the game easily? :smallconfused:

Pinnacle

2012-03-03, 02:32 PM

MnM characters are often fairly mobile, so if you want to do that I might recommend limiting movement powers.
Other than that, I don't see why not.

There was a 2E book on the subject, Warriors & Warlocks (http://www.greenronin.com/store/product/grr2523e.html), but I've never read it so I can't really comment on it one way or the other.

Chambers

2012-03-03, 03:13 PM

Thanks for the detailed example. Would you mind explaining how degrees of failure work? From reading the sample encounter in the preview (ultramarine fighting a lobster thing) it seems that if you fail a check its one degree and then if you fail by 4 or 5 its another degree, and so on.

Pinnacle

2012-03-03, 04:43 PM

A degree of success or failure is a 5-number window.

Hitting the DC exactly to DC+4 is one degree of success, DC+5 to DC+9 is two degrees, and so on.
Missing by 1-5 is one degree of failure, 6-10 is two, and so on.

Degrees only matter when how well you succeeded or how badly you failed is relevant.
If you miss an attack, the degree of failure doesn't matter. If you hit, the degree of success usually doesn't matter either (unless you have the Multi-Attack Extra).

For resistance checks, degree of success doesn't matter either--if you're unhurt, you're unhurt.
Degree of failure usually matters, but the attacks lay out what that means.

For Damage, one degree of failure (failing by 1-5) leaves you with a -1 penalty to further checks to resist Damage. That's why the DC is higher for Damage than for other attacks. Think of that first degree of failure as being similar to losing some HP (in effect, though not the mechanic). It does not yet hinder your ability to fight, but it makes it more likely that the next punch will drop you.
Two degrees of failure gives the same penalty, but also leaves you Dazed for one round.
Three degrees gives you the penalty and also leaves you Staggered--unless you're already Staggered, in which case a second third-degree failure against Damage leaves you Incapacitated.
A four-degree failure drops you right to Incapacitated.

Let's say a Paragon punches a Powerhouse and hits.
The Paragon has a Strength of 12, so his attack has a Toughness DC of 27 (15 base + 12 Damage).
The Powerhouse has Toughness +14. If she rolls a total of 27 or better, she took the punch and isn't hurt. On a roll of 22-26, she's suffered one degree of failure and takes a -1 penalty to her future Toughness checks. On a roll of 17-21, two degrees and she's Dazed. 15 or 16 and she takes 3 degrees and is Staggered.
The Powerhouse is tough enough compared to the Paragon's Damage that he normally can't drop her in one hit. A few hits later and she might be Staggered (in which case another third-degree failure will drop her) or have taken some penalties (she needs at least -4 before she can roll badly enough for a fourth-degree failure of 11).
Power Attack or Critical Hits can bump his DC enough that she could drop with a single attack if she gets an unlucky roll (Hero Points help keep that from happening too quickly).

Does that help?

Chambers

2012-03-03, 04:50 PM

Yes, very much, thanks. My mage has two offensive powers, the Area Blast and Affliction (Cumulative), so I was curious how to determine the degrees of failure.

So...it's DC 20 for my Affliction power (Dazed, Stunned, then Paralyzed), so a roll between 15-19 is one degree of failure (Dazed), 10-14 is two degrees (Dazed & Stunned), and below 10 is three degrees (Dazed, Stunned, & Paralyzed).

We're starting at PL 10, so I don't think getting below a 10 will happen much, but I suppose it's possible for bad guys to roll low and get 2 degrees of failure. Also, the Affliction is Cumulative, so that helps.

Pinnacle

2012-03-03, 05:13 PM

A third-degree failure on an Affliction can be Incapacitated or something similar, so, like with Damage, you don't want that to happen too easily to heroes or villains.

Minions who fail a resistance check automatically take the worst effect, so there's that. And villains who favor Will and have a lower Fortitude can fail that badly (although it still takes an unlucky roll).
If you want to take villains out directly with an Affliction, you do want Cumulative (or Progressive).

For the area damage, targets get a DC 20 Dodge check to reduce the damage; this is a pass or fail check, so degree doesn't matter, and Evasion grants a circumstance bonus to the check.
If they fail that check, the Toughness DC is 25. 20-24 is one degree of failure, 15-19 is two, 10-14 is three, and 9 or lower is four or worse. Toughness 8 or lower is probably atypical for villains you'll be facing, but it's not impossible especially after they've taken a few hits.
If they succeed on the Dodge check, the damage bonus is cut in half to +5 for a Toughness DC of 20. 15-19 is one degree, 10-14 is two, 5-9 is three, and 4 or lower is four or more.

Ivellius

2012-03-03, 07:23 PM

how easy is it to use the m&m rules for a fantasy game? can you use miniatures and a grid with the game easily? :smallconfused:

MnM characters are often fairly mobile, so if you want to do that I might recommend limiting movement powers.
Other than that, I don't see why not.

This, actually. I own Warriors & Warlocks, but I wouldn't really recommend getting it. It's mostly advice, although the pre-made statblocks are neat. In M&M it isn't that hard to stat things relatively quickly. But if you rework the prevalence of mobility effects, then you're pretty good. By default it doesn't use a grid, but there's no reason you couldn't introduce one.

The main thing it doesn't do well, however, is loot. W&W has some advice for that (as well as lists of different weapon types, but...do you really need those? ), but it's still not something that's going to be a focus of the game. I'll say it's much better balanced than D&D and can represent essentially any archetype you want, so I'd rather use it if balance issues are a concern or if your players like prestige-class Frankensteining to get a particular feel. It's less complicated than D&D and, I'd argue, the payoff is about as good.

nihil8r

2012-03-03, 08:24 PM

cool, thanks. is the hero's handbook all i need to get started or is the gm guide useful too?

Pinnacle

2012-03-03, 09:35 PM

The main thing it doesn't do well, however, is loot.
That is a very important point that I neglected, focusing on the specific question that was asked about grids. I apologize.
I probably also should have mentioned that MnM doesn't have much in the way of tactical movement rules--no flanking or opportunity attacks.

cool, thanks. is the hero's handbook all i need to get started or is the gm guide useful too?

The Hero's Handbook has a GM's section, and the rules for NPC creation are almost exactly the same as PC creation (and monster/robot/whatever creation is exactly the same as NPC), so the GM Guide isn't a necessity.
I have heard good things about it, but I don't own it myself. Useful? Very likely, but not necessary.

nihil8r

2012-03-04, 12:43 AM

that should be fine, it's easier to add something to a good ruleset than to fix a broken one. and, my group is enormously role-play heavy so i'm not concerned about loot or monsters. :smallcool:

masterjoda99

2012-03-04, 01:53 AM

At what point does an enemy become too powerful for a party of PL 10 characters?

Beleriphon

2012-03-04, 03:52 AM

At what point does an enemy become too powerful for a party of PL 10 characters?

Rough suggestion is group PL + (2 for every two characters). In essence if you have four PCs you can likely get away with a solo PL 14 enemy. That said there are any number of effects that can make a character, hero or villain, be virtually unassailable in combat. Things like Insubstantial can turn what should be a cake walk into an impossible fight if nobody can hurt the insubstantial guy. Heavily shifting in favour of Toughness can result in nearly impossible to hurt bad guys. Aat PL 14 you could have a character with a Toughness resistance check of +20 or higher depending on how you decide to work that using the suggested guidelines.

horngeek

2012-03-09, 07:12 PM

How would you build the Biotic Charge from Mass Effect 2 & 3 as a power in 3e?

Bitter

2012-03-09, 07:22 PM

Power: Damage, Limited to Charge manoeuvres. I never played Vanguards, so I don't really know what else it does beyond that.

Friv

2012-03-10, 11:26 AM

Heavily shifting in favour of Toughness can result in nearly impossible to hurt bad guys. Aat PL 14 you could have a character with a Toughness resistance check of +20 or higher depending on how you decide to work that using the suggested guidelines.

See, I would actually think the opposite, although it depends on the players involved. Since a guy with a +20 Toughness at PL 14 can't have a Dodge higher than 8, he's really easy to hit. One of your four players can just keep grappling him to slow him down, while the others launch a Team Attack. If they have any attack ability, that'll result in a DC 30 hit each round, which will wear him down pretty evenly. It'll be a slog, but not a difficult slog.

Tengu_temp

2012-03-10, 11:30 AM

Not to mention, very high defense->toughness tradeoff proves to be much less of a bonus when you're facing people with autofire attacks.

Beleriphon

2012-03-13, 12:29 AM

See, I would actually think the opposite, although it depends on the players involved. Since a guy with a +20 Toughness at PL 14 can't have a Dodge higher than 8, he's really easy to hit. One of your four players can just keep grappling him to slow him down, while the others launch a Team Attack. If they have any attack ability, that'll result in a DC 30 hit each round, which will wear him down pretty evenly. It'll be a slog, but not a difficult slog.

Heavily shifting in favour of Toughness can be a burden, since even team attacks don't usually match up to do enough damage fast enough to really be effective, especially if the bad guy has have a PL 14 attack to match.

As I said though it is a rough guideline and some group may find such a shift less of a burden. From a straight math perspective toughness is the better choice, but not by much.

Aerlock

2012-03-14, 10:04 AM

Beleriphon

2012-03-14, 01:00 PM

Is there a guide somewhere to converting characters from 1st/2nd editions of MnM to 2nd/3rd? I've got a few minor, low-powered, flavor NPCs from 1st that I would like to update and some of the powers have changed functionality a bit, some of the Extras I used no longer exist, and the actions have changed. I realize that these guys will probably never see combat in any useful way but I would still like to have the stats so I can beef em up easily if needed.

Thanks in advance,
- Aerlock

Second to Third does have a conversion document, I'm not sure about First to Second though.

You best bet is to just decide what you want the character to do and go with that. The way 1E M&M works compared to 3E is radically different. It would probably just be easier to rebuild them completely using the new rules, and achieve a similar end result.

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick

2012-03-16, 10:27 PM

Seeing as you're the mavens of the system, I thought I'd drop in with a quick query.

A recent character of mine was, at least partially, an attempt to see if I could find creative uses for unconventional Instant-duration powers- to whit, growth.

It's my contention that, with sufficient imagination, even a second's worth of being enormously large and heavy has potential to inconvenience one's foes and so forth; however, one particular application gave me fits.

This was an attempt to combine this Instant Growth with Strike, as a linked power; the concept being that the character (who is normally a mouse, and therefore obviously not a physical powerhouse) could, by increasing in size at the moment of the strike, deal appreciable damage, but would be unable to do so when normal size (whence the linked modifier). However, this seems to be an impossible combination, since linking Growth to Strike requires an Attack modifier for the former, which is inconsistent with my intention.

As such, what would be your recommendations for creating such a power?

prufock

2012-03-18, 12:16 PM

This was an attempt to combine this Instant Growth with Strike, as a linked power; the concept being that the character (who is normally a mouse, and therefore obviously not a physical powerhouse) could, by increasing in size at the moment of the strike, deal appreciable damage, but would be unable to do so when normal size (whence the linked modifier). However, this seems to be an impossible combination, since linking Growth to Strike requires an Attack modifier for the former, which is inconsistent with my intention.

As such, what would be your recommendations for creating such a power?

Assuming you're using 2nd ed (from your language): Growth X (Instantaneous -2/rank) with Growth Strike power feat. This gives you +1 damage per size category.

Really, though, you don't even need Growth for this effect. Strike X on its own works fine for this (Damage X in 3e). The size increase is really just a descriptor.

Particle_Man

2012-03-18, 03:38 PM

Doorhandle

2012-03-18, 07:37 PM

I think what he's saying is "Be a combat pragmitist." So by cheat, I think(operative word "Think") he means use every trait at the book's disposal that can hinder, stun, posion, annoy, weaken and otherwise debuff your foes, and let your freinds finish them.

nihil8r

2012-03-18, 11:32 PM

/sploosh

i bought the 3e book a little over a week ago, i'm about 2/3rds through it ... so far it's AMAZING! :smallcool:

KnightDisciple

2012-03-20, 09:57 PM

Really, though, you don't even need Growth for this effect. Strike X on its own works fine for this (Damage X in 3e). The size increase is really just a descriptor.This.
I'll try to link it when I get home, but on the play-by-post board I'm a member of, there's a build for a Duplicator that doesn't have 1 rank of Duplicate.
Way I look at it: Think of what you want the end result (hitting a guy hard) to be, then pick a power (Strike), then describe it (I go super-size for a brief moment!). Keep to that flow, you should be fine.

EDIT: (Finally getting the forum to cooperate)

Duplicator without Duplication (http://www.freedomplaybypost.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=4109&p=94318#p94318), ahoy! :smallbiggrin:

prufock

2012-03-21, 10:28 AM

Here is a DCA question:

I wanna play the Jokester (basically the Earth-3 "good" version of the Joker.

So

a) What should I change, point build wise?

b) What do I do with that DM advice on the Joker to "cheat" all the time? Is the fact that this would be a PC dooming this character since he presumably won't have that option? Is there a workaround (a lot of luck?)

Luck Control? Not sure if it's called/built the same in 3e, but 2e had it as its own power. Lots of Luck and use those HPs often.

darkon_turas

2012-03-23, 04:50 PM

Beleriphon

2012-03-23, 05:51 PM

Here is a DCA question:

I wanna play the Jokester (basically the Earth-3 "good" version of the Joker.

So

a) What should I change, point build wise?

b) What do I do with that DM advice on the Joker to "cheat" all the time? Is the fact that this would be a PC dooming this character since he presumably won't have that option? Is there a workaround (a lot of luck?)

My suggestion is to rebuild from the ground up using Joker theme, rather than using the actual states in the books. The book stats aren't actually balanced for player use, and rely heavily on the GM using GM Fiat to do what they want and giving the players a Hero Point in return.

Beleriphon

2012-03-23, 06:28 PM

I have a Variable Power question for you guys:

I am trying to make a character that can change alternate form types on a reaction, covering descriptors such as fire, ice, light, shadow, metal, water, etc. I was thinking that I could take the Variable power with the Variable Descriptor enhancement, but the power's description is rather vague about wether this is supposed to be a point pool for a single power or multiple powers (like a Hero System Variable Point Pool would be).

Would I have to take multiple variable powers for each category of power like movement or attack, or do I just make a single variable power and build form-packages under it?

None of the forms have any one power in common. Some would have flight (like the fire and light forms) while others won't (like metal and water forms). Also each one covers different levels of insubstantial (from solid like the metal form, to 4 points like the shadow form).

This might better handled as Morph with the Metamorph Extra. By the sounds of it you want a whole bunch of alternate shapes with different stats. Metamorph is good for this, although you can honestly just pick a set of effects and make another set of effects an Alternate Effect and do this a half dozen times as needed. The AE route is the best way to go if you want to have base stats that never change (Advantages, Skills, etc), while Metamorph is good for basically having an AE of your entire character.

Variable lets you change the structure of the assigned points on the fly, whenever you want. Its best handled for things like shapeshifters that can turn into anything, with stat changes, on a whim (Beast Boy, Plastic Man, Odo, etc.). This usually requires some kind of limit. Animals or Same Colour for Beast Boy and Plas respectively. Variable can be a very powerful effect, but it sounds like you're using it as intended.

The thing to keep in mind with Variable is that it lets you spend its points granted on anything you want within the limitations chosen. Having some predetermined packages works nicely while playing for all of the covered effects you want, but keep in mind you aren't actually limited to using those with Variable. You can make things up on the fly as long as the points costs and limits are maintained.

darkon_turas

2012-03-23, 08:14 PM

This might better handled as Morph with the Metamorph Extra. By the sounds of it you want a whole bunch of alternate shapes with different stats. Metamorph is good for this, although you can honestly just pick a set of effects and make another set of effects an Alternate Effect and do this a half dozen times as needed. The AE route is the best way to go if you want to have base stats that never change (Advantages, Skills, etc), while Metamorph is good for basically having an AE of your entire character.

Variable lets you change the structure of the assigned points on the fly, whenever you want. Its best handled for things like shapeshifters that can turn into anything, with stat changes, on a whim (Beast Boy, Plastic Man, Odo, etc.). This usually requires some kind of limit. Animals or Same Colour for Beast Boy and Plas respectively. Variable can be a very powerful effect, but it sounds like you're using it as intended.

The thing to keep in mind with Variable is that it lets you spend its points granted on anything you want within the limitations chosen. Having some predetermined packages works nicely while playing for all of the covered effects you want, but keep in mind you aren't actually limited to using those with Variable. You can make things up on the fly as long as the points costs and limits are maintained.

Thanks. Part of the point of the character is so that I can improvise. If I need a radiation form or something, it is within the concept and power structure to just go ahead and do it. As most forms to have certain elements in common, I can likely do a mix and match from the menu for on-the-fly modes. For example, a radioactive form would bear a strong resemblance in structure to the fire form. And then there are the ones with some strange aspects like the shadow form and its concealment power or the electrical form and its electronics possession ability - something unique to those respective forms.

In light of the advice from this forum, I seem to be using the variable power correctly as a point pool for all of her forms, however this bugger is really expensive so I'm having issues affording the points needed for it. I'm effectively spending twice the pool's points for the powers. Its reasonable for the ability to change reactively, but the expense is a real challenge to deal with at 10PP per rank.

Particle_Man

2012-03-23, 09:25 PM

My suggestion is to rebuild from the ground up using Joker theme, rather than using the actual states in the books. The book stats aren't actually balanced for player use, and rely heavily on the GM using GM Fiat to do what they want and giving the players a Hero Point in return.

What would you suggest in particular for a typical PL 10 Jokester?

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick

2012-03-24, 01:24 PM

I'm reading through the 3e rulebook, and there's some things that worry me, which I'll be posting for you helpful fellows as they occur.

For instance; what's the design explanation of that enormous bonus to Damage powers?
Either I'm missing something, or everyone's poor opponents are rolling their toughness modifier, all alone and shivering in the dark, against not only whatever rank you've chosen to put in (at a piddling one point per), but a free +15, just in case.

Assuming a well-balanced heroic type who's exactly equalized attack bonus and effect rank- 10 each- anyone rolling against Damage is going up against 25. Every single time, and in all likelihood every single round.

Now, presumably you still have to hit first, since you inflict damage by 'making a close attack', but even so; defense class is +10, damage is +15.

Help me out here.

Pinnacle

2012-03-24, 01:50 PM

Damage DCs get a +5 bonus because the first degree of failure against Damage just gives a failure to future checks.
You need to fail by 5 or more--a roll that would have failed against an Affliction DC, too--to take any conditions from Damage.

Think of it like losing hit points, which in DnD you don't have a chance to avoid at all. It doesn't directly hinder your ability to keep fighting, it just makes it more likely that the next punch will.

Beleriphon

2012-03-24, 04:47 PM

What would you suggest in particular for a typical PL 10 Jokester?

Affliction is your friend. Seriously, build a couple of afflictions and just call them Joke theme stuff. You can use Joker's acid flower, but instead it's Crazy Purple Knock-Out Gas.

I'd honestly build it with an even to hit and effect trade off. So a Rank 10 Affliction with a +10 to hit in whatever manner you so choose.

Part of the reason Joker gets to "cheat" as an NPC villain is that he get unlimited goons without needs to buy the minion advantage, and gets a hideout without spending money on an HQ. You need to buy those things with points as a player, but what I'd do is look at what makes the Joker iconic as far as his abilities go and rebuild them to meet your needs.

Beleriphon

2012-03-24, 04:49 PM

In light of the advice from this forum, I seem to be using the variable power correctly as a point pool for all of her forms, however this bugger is really expensive so I'm having issues affording the points needed for it. I'm effectively spending twice the pool's points for the powers. Its reasonable for the ability to change reactively, but the expense is a real challenge to deal with at 10PP per rank.

A really broad variable is really powerful. It means you can be or do anything you want effectively on a whim. The point cost is balance by its utility, and Variable has the highest potential for utility in the game.

KnightDisciple

2012-03-25, 11:18 PM

Because it's hilarious...

Best random Mutants and Masterminds 2e build ever?

Vampire Ape with a Power Ring (http://freedomplaybypost.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=4109&start=520#p140514). :smallbiggrin:

Otacon17

2012-03-29, 07:20 PM

I ran my first session ever last night. My players absolutely loved it. I can't get over how flexible the system is. When I was describing it to my players, I told them that they could do pretty much anything; naturally, one of them took this as a challenge, and said: "Anything, huh? Well, I want the ability to turn into a Tyrannosaurus Rex. With robot legs. That spits acid."

He put 8 ranks into Shapeshift and bought Growth, Speed, Leaping, and Ranged Damage. And thus, Space Captain Tiberius Rexington was born. Easily the craziest character anyone made last night. So what kind of weird concepts have other people seen/played?

Beleriphon

2012-03-29, 08:13 PM

He put 8 ranks into Shapeshift and bought Growth, Speed, Leaping, and Ranged Damage. And thus, Space Captain Tiberius Rexington was born. Easily the craziest character anyone made last night. So what kind of weird concepts have other people seen/played?

Cerberus Rex is an official M&M character, he's very similar, although his name isn't as funny. :smallbiggrin:

As for characters I had a player build a guy that used Luck Control in 2E and a Variable power to basically give himself a host of low level powers deemed "skillfully absurd parkour". Wall Crawling was the right moisture levels in the air, slightly tacky shoes and walls that weren't quite plumb. Forget the fact that its 20 stories.

hiryuu

2012-04-02, 12:25 AM

My current campaign (http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/yamazawa-style) has seen a few weird PCs, including a woman made of candy, a teenager who can possess objects like tables, chairs, cars, and dolls, a guy who can ask questions and get answers as if he were an authority figure, and a guy who can destroy the strong nuclear force.

NPCs that I haven't gotten around to throwing up include a girl who can change the location of an object's center of gravity, a guy who can amplify pressures on stress points of an object (such as in the keystone of an arch), and a guy who invert the square-cube law. When they get together they can make things explode.

Sorceress

2012-04-02, 09:15 AM

So what kind of weird concepts have other people seen/played?

Iron Abe, a steampunk iron robot with Abraham Lincoln's brain in it, who could grow to giant size and had a complication of being a "giant monster magnet."

He was built by Moby ****, which was probably the weirdest thing about him.

Beleriphon

2012-04-03, 09:55 PM

Iron Abe, a steampunk iron robot with Abraham Lincoln's brain in it, who could grow to giant size and had a complication of being a "giant monster magnet."

That's awesome. And Moby ****, you mean the white sperm whale, or Captain Ahab?

Sorceress

2012-04-03, 11:04 PM

That's awesome. And Moby ****, you mean the white sperm whale, or Captain Ahab?

The actual whale. He apparently was a lot more powerful than even Melville let on; or so I'm told.

tonberrian

2012-04-23, 05:59 PM

Have you ever tried building a character and then find that you're, oh, 40 points over the PL limit?

Sigh. :smalltongue:

Pinnacle

2012-04-23, 11:11 PM

Oh yes. All the time.
I usually start with trimming Abilities. I always make them higher than they need to be, and then trim them back down when I need the points.

McToomin

2012-04-24, 10:34 AM

Hi everyone! I literally just found out about Mutants and Masterminds a couple of days ago, and I'm just loving what I'm reading so far. Some of the rules I don't quite understand yet (for instance, you make an attack roll vs. an enemy's normal Dodge DC, but then they make an active dodge to determine the degree of effect? If that's right then I guess I do understand it). The main problem I'm having is that some words show up so often that if you're not already familiar with the rules they all start to run together. Words like "resistance" and "ranks" appear multiple times on every page, so it's hard to remember what they mean when applied to certain concepts.

ANYWAY, as an exercise I was going to try and create my old 3.P character, Gobold the Kobold, in the Mutants and Masterminds system, to try and get a handle on it. Gobold is an Enlightened Fist (with the appropriate levels in Monk/Sorcerer, basically he punches with spells). However, the very first thing I tried to work with, I got stuck on.

One of his signature moves was Vampiric Touch (gives you temporary HP for the amount of HP inflicted on an opponent). I understand that HP doesn't exist in M&M, but I figured there must be a way to touch an opponent and inflict degrees of failure on them while removing them from yourself.

So I went to healing (http://www.d20herosrd.com/6-powers/effects/effect-descriptions/healing-general) (I'm using d20herosrd.com for everything). There, the Limited and Temporary flaws fit perfectly. Vampiric Touch only granted temporary HP, and is limited to only myself.

(*As an aside, surely this doesn't reduce the cost to 0 points per rank, right? Having free healing, even if it is only self and temporary, shouldn't be free, from what I understand. If that were the case, everyone ever would have free temporary healing for themself, and then separate free healing for others, wouldn't they? Or can you have separate ranks in a power?

Anyway, I couldn't find any "flaws cannot reduce a power's rank to 0" anywhere, so I'm asking.)

So yeah, I've got Healing with Limited and Temporary, so far so good. Now I just need the part where I deal damage at the same time. Does the Action extra move it from a standard action to a move action? If I take it again, does it take it from a move action to a free action? Is that possible? If that were the case, the "Limited" part of the healing could be "Only when used in conjunction with <Special Move Name Here>."

So yeah, any advice? Since Gobold punched with spells, I was looking for something like it in Blast, Strike, Magic, and Damage, but none of them seem to quite fit. Should I just give him Magic (Damage X [fire]), Magic (Damage X [electricity]), and so on? Does that make sense? I figured a blast with close range flaw and a variable effect would work, but I don't see rules for that. Are they just not on the website? The Healing page has its extras and flaws clearly laid out, but then other pages don't have it.

Any help is appreciated!

tonberrian

2012-04-24, 11:30 AM

Any help is appreciated!

All right.

The first thing you should know is that you build a power based off of its effect. Mechanically, there's nothing different between a blast of eldritch force, a laser attack, a ki projection of your fist for long range attacks, or a blast of fire from your mouth - the differences here are all in the descriptors, which determine what the power manifests as.

You want a short-range attack, right? Then Damage is what you want, subject to whatever modifiers you think it needs. For example, for your Vampiric Touch, I'd recommend Linking it to Healing - so the attack deals damage to your opponent and heals you up at the same time.

Having a lot of different abilities gets really expensive, and you just can't use all of them at the same time. What you can do is build an array, a set of alternate powers that you can only use some of at a time, for a much cheaper cost. For example, were I building an array of magical spells, I could have that Vampiric Touch from above, then (for a minor cost) also have a fireball spell (Damage with Ranged and Burst Area), an acid aura (Damage with the Reaction modifier based on touching me), flight (Flight), or just about any other power I could fluff as a spell. But using this array, I can't use my flying spell while also using the Vampiric Touch spell. If I wanted to be able to fly and cast Vampiric Touch at the same time, I would have to buy Flight as its own power.

As for modifiers reducing costs past 1 point/rank, here's what the SRD you linked says, under Power Modifiers (http://www.d20herosrd.com/6-powers/modifiers):

If total flaws reduce an effect’s cost per rank to less than 1 character point, each additional –1 to cost per rank beyond that adds to the number of ranks of the effect you get by spending 1 character point on a 1-to-1 basis.

In essence, an effect’s cost can be expressed as the ratio of character points per rank (PP:R). So an effect costing 3 points per rank is 3:1. If that effect has a total of –2 in modifiers, it costs 1:1, or 1 character point per rank. Applying another –1 modifier adds to the second part of the ratio, making it 1:2, or 1 character point per two ranks, and so forth.

Pinnacle

2012-04-24, 11:48 AM

Some of the rules I don't quite understand yet (for instance, you make an attack roll vs. an enemy's normal Dodge DC, but then they make an active dodge to determine the degree of effect?
Just like in DnD, you make an attack roll against a static number to see if you hit--Parry Class if it's a close attack, Dodge Class if it's ranged. The target gets a resistance check against your static DC (same as a 3E DnD saving throw, basically) to see how well they stand up to the attack.

One of his signature moves was Vampiric Touch (gives you temporary HP for the amount of HP inflicted on an opponent). I understand that HP doesn't exist in M&M, but I figured there must be a way to touch an opponent and inflict degrees of failure on them while removing them from yourself.

(*As an aside, surely this doesn't reduce the cost to 0 points per rank, right? Having free healing, even if it is only self and temporary, shouldn't be free, from what I understand. If that were the case, everyone ever would have free temporary healing for themself, and then separate free healing for others, wouldn't they? Or can you have separate ranks in a power?

Anyway, I couldn't find any "flaws cannot reduce a power's rank to 0" anywhere, so I'm asking.)
If you would reduce the cost of a power below 1 PP/rank, you instead increase the ranks per PP. A 1 point per rank power with a -1 Flaw becomes a 1 point per two ranks power. Another -1 Flaw brings it to 1 point per three ranks.

So yeah, I've got Healing with Limited and Temporary, so far so good. Now I just need the part where I deal damage at the same time. Does the Action extra move it from a standard action to a move action? If I take it again, does it take it from a move action to a free action? Is that possible? If that were the case, the "Limited" part of the healing could be "Only when used in conjunction with <Special Move Name Here>."
Typically for powers that happen at the same time, you want the Linked extra. That makes the two powers use the same action, so they not only don't have to have their actions reduced, they actually can't. You'll likely make use of that for some of your attacks.
In this case, though, you've got powers with different ranges and different targets, so that doesn't work. You want the Reaction extra. You've got Limited (to Self), but your GM might decide that "When the target of the Damage fails a resistance check" to be restricted enough that you could add another Limited flaw for that--but Reaction does require a trigger, so it's a GM call if it's narrow enough to also be Limited.

So yeah, any advice? Since Gobold punched with spells, I was looking for something like it in Blast, Strike, Magic, and Damage, but none of them seem to quite fit. Should I just give him Magic (Damage X [fire]), Magic (Damage X [electricity]), and so on? Does that make sense? I figured a blast with close range flaw and a variable effect would work, but I don't see rules for that. Are they just not on the website? The Healing page has its extras and flaws clearly laid out, but then other pages don't have it.
In DnD you've got a big list of specific spells. You don't need that in MnM. Damage--possibly (probably?) strength-based--with the Variable Descriptor flat extra. Possibly two ranks of it if you can do a wide enough variety of damage types. Done.

You'll probably have an array with a few different effects, but you don't need them all. Vampiric Touch, Variable Descriptor Damage (that'll probably be the lowest cost... you could probably add some Penetrating or something without any extra cost, and it seems fitting enough for energy-enhanced punching), and maybe Damage Linked to an Affliction or Weaken. You might have a few different ways to do that last one, but then you're probably good.
You don't have to build every spell he could possibly ever use in MnM--power stunts are you friend.

McToomin

2012-04-24, 01:02 PM

As for modifiers reducing costs past 1 point/rank, here's what the SRD you linked says, under Power Modifiers (http://www.d20herosrd.com/6-powers/modifiers):

Ah ok. I couldn't find a search function on the site. Thanks for both of your help.

Mechanically, what is an array? Do I spend points on "Array" and then I have variable effects? For your example, Gobold could fly and fight at the same time, so I would take flight separately.

Also, he could hit multiple times to "nova" his foes. In D&D, this made him awesome in single fights, but if there were others during the day his spell slots would begin to run out and he'd have to conserve. Does the "Magic" effect have any flaws such as Limitation that lower the point cost to take it. That way, I can make all of his magical abilities tied to "Magic" and then find some way to limit it throughout the day (he only has a certain amount of magic he can perform in the day, and then none of his spells work).

But yes, about attacking multiple times, I saw under Super Speed about something called "Multiattack," but with no search function on the website I can't seem to find it. I figured it was an advantage, but I didn't see anything there. If I had an array of magic punching spells and Multiattack, could I hit multiple times with different effects?

*EDIT* And yeah right now I'm just doing this as an exercise to understand the system better, so I can then introduce my group to it. So he basically has as much power as I want him to have. :P

*EDIT2* Okay so this is what I came up with for Vampiric Touch (the Cost to the right is the running total cost of the power/effect):

Damage 10 (necromancy) ~ Cost: 10 points
-Flaw: Fades ~ Cost: 5 points
-Linked to Healing ~ No additional cost
-Healing 10 ~ Cost: 25 points
-Flaw: Fades ~ Cost 15
-Flaw: Limited - Self-Only ~ Cost 10
-Flaw: Temporary ~ Cost: 5

So I end up with:

Vampiric Touch - Damage 10, Healing 10 (Fades, self, temporary)

for 5 points. Is this correct?

The_Snark

2012-04-24, 10:50 PM

But yes, about attacking multiple times, I saw under Super Speed about something called "Multiattack," but with no search function on the website I can't seem to find it. I figured it was an advantage, but I didn't see anything there. If I had an array of magic punching spells and Multiattack, could I hit multiple times with different effects?

It's a power modifier, actually; if you click on the page tonberrian linked you'll find it about halfway down. The short answer is: sort of. A power with the Multiattack extra can be used to attack multiple enemies at the same time (though you'll take a penalty to your attack rolls), or you can focus on a single one and increase the DC to resist the effect (exactly how much depends on how good your attack roll was).

But you won't actually roll more than one attack against a single enemy, nor can you use different effects at the same time.

Okay so this is what I came up with for Vampiric Touch (the Cost to the right is the running total cost of the power/effect):

Damage 10 (necromancy) ~ Cost: 10 points
-Flaw: Fades ~ Cost: 5 points
-Linked to Healing ~ No additional cost
-Healing 10 ~ Cost: 25 points
-Flaw: Fades ~ Cost 15
-Flaw: Limited - Self-Only ~ Cost 10
-Flaw: Temporary ~ Cost: 5

So I end up with:

Vampiric Touch - Damage 10, Healing 10 (Fades, self, temporary)

for 5 points. Is this correct?

I... don't think so. You should probably calculate the cost of the two powers separately, then add them together - I suspect that's what's tripping you up.

Damage 10 (necromancy) [1 point/rank] ~ Cost: 10 points
-Flaw: Fades [-1 modifier; new cost 1/2 of a point/rank] ~ Cost: 5 points
-Linked to Healing [+0 modifier; no change] ~

-Healing 10 ~ [2 points/rank] Cost: 20 points
-Flaw: Fades [-1 modifier; new cost 1 point/rank] ~ Cost: 10 points
-Flaw: Limited - Self-Only [-1 modifier; new cost 1/2 of a point/rank] ~ Cost 5
-Flaw: Temporary [-1 modifier; new cost 1/3 of a point/rank]~ Cost: 3.33333... (round up to 4)
-Linked to Damage [+0 modifier; no change] ~

For a total of 9 points.

As for simulating D&D's spells per day... you can sort of do that, but the system isn't all that good at it. Firstly, you could put the Fades flaw on your Magic array; it'll lose a little effectiveness each time you use it. After several battles without any chance to recharge, you'll be pretty weak. The downside is that your powers will start to weaken right away.

You could put the Tiring flaw on your powers, but this will sharply limit their use: a single use will make you fatigued, a second will make you exhausted, and a third... I'm not sure, actually. In previous editions you'd have been unconscious, but I can't find any general rules about how fatigue works in this one.

Lastly, you could apply the Unreliable flaw to your magic, choosing the option that gives you five uses until you have to rest/recharge. However, this is tricky to balance: if you apply this flaw to every power in a large Array then you have so many uses it's hardly limiting at all, but if you apply it to the Array as a whole it's almost crippling. As always, though, this is subject to GM approval.

Bear in mind that there's no 4 encounter/day standard in this game, like there is in D&D, so it's tough to judge how much of a flaw this kind of thing is. In an actual game it might be better to leave it out.

Quellian-dyrae

2012-04-24, 11:15 PM

Another way to do the spells/day would just be to make it a Complication. Either establish a set limit of spells per day, or just let your GM be able to step in and say "you're out of magic for the day" when it deems appropriate. It doesn't give you any extra points, but when you run out, you would get a Hero Point.

Starsign

2012-04-25, 08:44 AM

Ah ok. I couldn't find a search function on the site. Thanks for both of your help.

Mechanically, what is an array? Do I spend points on "Array" and then I have variable effects? For your example, Gobold could fly and fight at the same time, so I would take flight separately.

An array is a set of powers, all being Alternate Powers of one single power. This method is a very good way on saving PP since APs are only 1 PP rather than the price of the entire PP of the power. Lemme give an example for 2e (the same should work for 3e).

Strike 9; Autofire 1 Extra; DC 24; 18 PP.
APs: Paralyze 9, Datalink 8, Dazzle 7
- Paralyze 9; DC 19 Fort; 18 PP total
- Datalink 8; Radio Sense; Omni-Directional Area Extra; Machine Control and Subtle Power Feats; 18 PP total
- Dazzle 7; Visual Senses Burst Area (4 ranks) 20 ft radius; DC 17 Fort; 18 PP total
Total Cost: 21 PP

All APs have a PP limit of that to the original power, in this case, 18. With 3 APs, that all adds up to 21 PP. Be aware only one power can be used at one time in an array. So if you have Flight and Strike in an array, you can only fly or attack with a power, you can't do both.

Does that make any sense? :smallsmile:

McToomin

2012-04-25, 09:34 AM

Ok, I think I understand now. I think Unreliable works the best for this, Gobold had about 6 spells per spell level, so using the 5 uses works almost perfectly for most of his "spells." Here's what I have so far, with the point cost (as I understand it) listed for each one. If someone could go through this and critique it/let me know if there's any problems, I'd really, really appreciate it. I'll explain where the point costs are all coming from so it isn't confusing.

Some questions from the outset that I'd like answered if possible:

1) Does he match a power level of 10? I know that he can only have a max of 20 in some things, and 10 in others, but I'm not sure what those things are.

2) Is he a formidable power level 10 character? I know he isn't exactly min-maxed or anything, and that's not what I'm going for. I just want to know if he could hold his own against other power level 10 characters, or if his blasting/damaging powers aren't up to snuff.

~~~~~~~~~~

Gobold the Kobold

Complications: Doing Good, Thrills, Power Loss, Relationship

ABILITIES (2 points/rank) ~ COST 34
Str 1
Sta 0
Agl 3
Dex 3
Fgt 4
Int 0
Awe 4
Pre 2

SKILLS (1 point/2 ranks) ~ COST 24
8 - Acrobatics
4 - Athletics
12 - Close Combat
6 - Deception
10 - Ranged Combat
8 - Stealth

ADVANTAGES (1 point/rank) ~ COST 12
... Benefit (Ambidexterity)
x2 Evasion
... Grabbing Finesse
... Hide in Plain Sight
x3 Improved Critical (unarmed)
... Instant Up
... Redirect
... Skill Mastery (Acrobatics)
... Weapon Bind

POWERS (variable) ~ COST 77
The point cost for each power is in parentheses to its left, the actual effect ranks are italicized and underlined.

(1) Fast Movement - Speed 1

(2) Darkvision - Senses 2

(1) Altitude Adaptation - Feature 1 (Acclimated to high-altitude climates, suffering no ill effects)

(1) Slight Build - Feature 1 (Can fit in spaces smaller than his body with an additional move action)

(9) Vampiric Touch - Damage 6 1 point/rank (6) [necromancy] LINKED Healing 9 1 point/3 ranks (3) (-1 Unreliable, -1 Limited, -1 Temporary) (Unreliable, Limited: Self, Temporary)

(6) Elemental Fist - Damage 5 [elemental] 1 point/rank +1 (+1 Multiattack, flat +1 Variable, -1 Unreliable) (Multiattack, Variable Descriptor [Elemental], Unreliable)

(5) Ki Blast - Damage 5 [ki] 1 point/rank (+1 Ranged, -1 Unreliable) (Increased Range: Ranged, Unreliable)

(3) Stunning Fist - Affliction 9 1 point/3 ranks (-1 Instant Recovery, -1 Unreliable) (1-Hindered, 2-Stunned, 3-Incapacitated) (Instant Recovery, Unreliable)

(3) Controlled Immolation - Immunity 6 [fire] 1 point/3 ranks (-1 Limited) (Limited: Set on Fire Only (not immune to normal fire attacks, only from damage from actually being set on fire)

(18)(+2 AE) Control Winds - Move Object 9 [air] 2 points/rank (+1 Damaging, -1 Limited Material) (Damaging, Limited Material: Air)
. (18) AE: Wind Wall - Protection 9 [air] 2 points/rank (+1 Area, -2 Increased Action: Standard, +2 Increased Range: Ranged, +1 Indirect, +0 Sustained, -1 Unreliable) (Area: Line, Increased Action: Standard, Increased Range x2: Ranged, Indirect, Sustained, Unreliable)
. (18) AE: Air Scooter - Flight 9 1 point/3 ranks (3) (-1 Increased Action, -1 Platform) (Increased Action: Standard, Platform) LINKED Movement 4 1 point/rank (4) (limits) > Safe Fall, Sure-Footed, Wall-Crawling, Water-Walking (-1 each Limit) (Limited: Platform Only) LINKED Speed 11 1 point/rank (11)

(29) Elemental Body - Shapeshift 5 6 points/rank -1 (flat -1 Activation, -1 Limited, -1 Unreliable) (Activation: Standard, Limited: Elemental Forms, Unreliable) (25p)

~ (25) Water Elemental
. -2 Dex, +2 Sta (stats remain equal)
. (4) Flight 3 1 point/rank +1 (flat +1 Aquatic, -1 Limit) (Aquatic, Limited: Aquatic Only)
. (1) Underwater Adaptation - Immunity 1
. (6) Watery Form - Insubstantial 1 5 points/rank +1 (+1 Affects Corporeal) (Affects Corporeal)
. (6) Water Blast - Move Object 6 [water] 1 point/rank (+1 Damaging, -1 Limited Direction, -1 Limited Material) (Damaging, Limited Direction: Away, Limited Material: Water)
. (8) Vortex - Affliction 8 [water] 1 point/rank (+1 Increased Range, -1 Limit) (1-Impaired, 2-Disabled, 3-Unaware) (Increased Range, Limited: Water Only)

~ (25) Earth Elemental
. -2 Dex, +2 Str (stats remain equal)
. (5) Earthen Form - Protection 5 (Sustained)
. (7) Earth Glide - Burrowing 7
. (6) +3 Stamina
. (7) Rock Blast - Move Object 7 [earth] 1 point/rank (+1 Damaging, -1 Limited Direction, -1 Limited Material) (Damaging, Limited Direction: Away, Limited Material: Earth)

~ (25) Fire Elemental
. -2 Str, +2 Agl (stats remain equal)
. (19) Fiery Form - Insubstantial 1 5 points/rank +1 (6) (+1 Affects Corporeal) (Affects Corporeal) LINKED Immunity 5 [fire] 1 point/rank (5) LINKED Energy Aura 2 [fire] 4 points/rank (8)
. (6) Fire Blast - Move Object 6 [fire] 1 point/rank (+1 Damaging, -1 Limited Direction, -1 Limited Material) (Damaging, Limited Direction: Away, Limited Material: Fire)

~ (25) Air Elemental
. -2 Str, +2 Dex (stats remain equal)
. (12) Airy Form - Insubstantial 1 5 points/rank +1 (6) (+1 Affects Corporeal) (Affects Corporeal) LINKED Flight 2 3 points/rank (6) (+1 Subtle) (Subtle)
. (5) Air Blast - Move Object 5 [air] 1 point/rank (+1 Damaging, -1 Limited Direction, -1 Limited Material) (Damaging, Limited Direction: Away, Limited Material: Air)
. (8) Whirlwind - Affliction 4 [air] 2 points/rank (+1 Increased Range) (1-Impaired, 2-Disabled, 3-Unaware) (Increased Range: Ranged)

~ (25) Ice Elemental
. -2 Dex, +2 Sta (stats remain equal)
. (19) Icy Form - Protection 5 1 point/rank (5) (Sustained) LINKED Immunity 5 [cold] 1 point/rank (5) LINKED Energy Aura 2 [cold] 4 points/rank (8)
. (3) Ice Glide - Burrowing 6 1 point/2 ranks (-1 Limit) (Limit: Ice/Snow)
. (4) Ice Blast - Move Object 4 [ice] 1 point/rank (+1 Damaging, -1 Limited Direction, -1 Limited Material) (Damaging, Limited Direction: Away, Limited Material: Ice/Snow)

~ (25) Lightning Elemental
. -2 Str, +2 Agl (stats remain equal)
. (11) Electric Form - Insubstantial 1 5 points/rank +1 (6) (flat +1 Affects Corporeal) (Affects Corporeal) LINKED Immunity 5 [electricity] 1 point/rank (5)
. (14) Shocking Grasp - Damage 7 [electric] 1 point/rank (7) LINKED Affliction 7 1 point/rank (7) (1-Hindered, 2-Stunned, 3-Paralyzed)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So yeah, that's what I've got so far. I feel like in a game this would very much keep the same feel of Gobold. I wasn't able to add all of his spells in (notable exclusions include Mirror Image, Greater Invisibility, and Chain Lightning), but this character definitely captures Gobold's spirit (assuming that he's made correctly).

tonberrian

2012-04-25, 07:39 PM

So what is broken in 2E, both powerful and useless?

Beleriphon

2012-04-25, 09:24 PM

So what is broken in 2E, both powerful and useless?

Summon/Duplication are probably the most powerfully broken. Especially with the Heroic extra and the one that lets you summon all of the extra characters all at once. So with enough points you could summon hundreds or even thousands of extra characters all at once.

Quellian-dyrae

2012-04-25, 09:50 PM

Gobold

I could be wrong, but here are some thoughts.

Technical Notes:

I think the Unreliable flaw would also apply to the Damage portion of Vampiric Touch, which would save you 3 PP.

I believe the basic Fire Damage Immunity would be 5 ranks.

The Air Scooter seems off, if I'm understanding it correctly. Since you've increased the action of Flight, and linked the other two to it, I believe both of them should also get the Increased Action flaw.

The powers being linked strike me as slightly odd, although looking at it in detail I suppose it works. If I'm reading right, what happens is you take your standard action to cast the Air Scooter spell. You can then maintain it with a free action each round. While it is maintained, your land speed increases by 11, to Speed Rank 12 (if it stacks with Fast Movement, not actually sure on that). You also summon up a platform of some kind, which you can ride on to fly at Speed Rank 9. While on your platform, you can walk on water at your ground speed, and climb at your ground speed - 1, so basically you move faster when moving parallel to a surface. You likewise reduce the speed penalty for any obstacles you encounter while on your platform by 1. Anything that causes your platform to fall allows you to fall safely to the ground, but if you are knocked from your platform, you still take normal falling damage.

Is that right?

Other Thoughts

The Unreliable on the separate attack powers kind of seems off to me. The way I'm seeing it, while it's true that putting it on alternate powers basically means either the whole array is limited to five uses (which could be too weak) or each effect is limited to five uses (which is exploitable on an array), if you were to take the array of Vampiric Touch, Elemental Fist, Ki Blast, and Stunning Fist, without unreliable, it would be 13 PP total. As it stands, you're making all your attacks unreliable, which isn't itself too bad since you have several, but you're paying an extra 10 PP over what you could be.

I mean, doesn't matter much unless you're in an actual game, but worth noting.

Myself, I'd rate being set on fire as narrow enough to be worth two doses of Limited (say, Limited: Only to non-instantaneous; Limited: Only to personally being on fire [as opposed to the also-common non-instantaneous attack method of an area that lasts on a duration]). That'd be a GM call, but it's a specific enough immunity that I'd call it worth 1 PP.

Greater Invisibility you could do as just Concealment 4 [Visual Senses], Increased Action [Standard]. Cost 2 PP I believe. Mirror Image...I'd do the same thing, as an alternate power, but adding Limited [Only provides the defensive benefits, does not prevent detection]. To make it really act like D&D, maybe also do a variant of Fades where the penalty lowers by 1 per miss. Chain Lightning would be a Selective Area Ranged Damage effect.

McToomin

2012-04-25, 10:02 PM

The Air Scooter seems off, if I'm understanding it correctly. Since you've increased the action of Flight, and linked the other two to it, I believe both of them should also get the Increased Action flaw.

I see. I figured since it's already attached to a power that had increased the action, they would go off at the same time, meaning that adding the Increased Action to the other linked powers was kind of "cheating," so to speak, to gain extra points for no real loss (since they're already linked to a power that has its action increased). Is this a common tactic to conserve points?

The powers being linked strike me as slightly odd, although looking at it in detail I suppose it works. If I'm reading right, what happens is you take your standard action to cast the Air Scooter spell. You can then maintain it with a free action each round. While it is maintained, your land speed increases by 11, to Speed Rank 12 (if it stacks with Fast Movement, not actually sure on that). You also summon up a platform of some kind, which you can ride on to fly at Speed Rank 9. While on your platform, you can walk on water at your ground speed, and climb at your ground speed - 1, so basically you move faster when moving parallel to a surface. You likewise reduce the speed penalty for any obstacles you encounter while on your platform by 1. Anything that causes your platform to fall allows you to fall safely to the ground, but if you are knocked from your platform, you still take normal falling damage.

Is that right?

Pretty much absolutely correct. It was a custom spell (modeled after Phantom Steed) meant to emulate Aang's air scooter from Avatar: The Last Airbender. The "platform" that is summoned is a small ball of air that greatly increases his speed, and can move up and down walls and across water. It would dissipate in the air, and so giving it a "peters out when not in contact with a solid surface" would probably save me some points as well. But I'm glad the mechanics support the fluff I was going for so far. It's all tied to the scooter, if he's knocked off the scooter or it disappears for any reason, he would lose all of these effects.

The Unreliable on the separate attack powers kind of seems off to me. The way I'm seeing it, while it's true that putting it on alternate powers basically means either the whole array is limited to five uses (which could be too weak) or each effect is limited to five uses (which is exploitable on an array), if you were to take the array of Vampiric Touch, Elemental Fist, Ki Blast, and Stunning Fist, without unreliable, it would be 13 PP total. As it stands, you're making all your attacks unreliable, which isn't itself too bad since you have several, but you're paying an extra 10 PP over what you could be.

I mean, doesn't matter much unless you're in an actual game, but worth noting.

Yeah I've got a pretty good handle on arrays now (I think). The problem with making them alternate effects is that I'd only get 5 uses out of all of them combined, whereas as a Sorcerer Gobold should be able to cast a pretty good amount of "spells" per day. I've already combined several of his spells into "Elemental Fist" (spells like Shocking Grasp and Scorching Ray (which, as an Enlightened Fist, he punched people with Scorching Ray)). Likewise, his Stunning Fist and Ki Blast aren't technically spells (they're feats), but they also had a limited number of uses.

Actually, since Ki Blast uses Stunning Fist uses, that one should be an alternate effect of Stunning Fist. That would save me some points. I'll fiddle with it; Mirror Image was Gobold's next-most-used spell that I wasn't able to fit in, so I'd probably try to go for that one next if I gain some more extra points.

Thanks for the help though, seeing it reflected off of someone else helps a lot. My only other question is: is he passable as a power level 10 character? Would he be able to hold his own in combat? I've read a lot and understand that power level is more of a guideline, and depending on immunities/powers/etc., some characters will be able to outfight almost anyone else at their level, while higher level characters will be "underpowered." I'd just like to know if, as a general guideline, he'd do okay.

Quellian-dyrae

2012-04-26, 01:29 AM

I see. I figured since it's already attached to a power that had increased the action, they would go off at the same time, meaning that adding the Increased Action to the other linked powers was kind of "cheating," so to speak, to gain extra points for no real loss (since they're already linked to a power that has its action increased). Is this a common tactic to conserve points?

I actually thought it was simply required that they use the same action type. Looking at it again, it just says the linked action uses the longest of all involved. I'm fairly new to M&M myself, so I'm not sure how your average GM would call it. To me, it seems like if you're using the higher cost action anyway, you might as well apply it to all of them.

'Course, the thing can also be done with the Activation flaw, which amounts to functionally the same handicap (for a sustained power that will only target you, you'll only need to activate it once anyway) but only involves a flat point reduction. Pretty much, they all do the job, it's just different degrees of optimization.

My only other question is: is he passable as a power level 10 character? Would he be able to hold his own in combat? I've read a lot and understand that power level is more of a guideline, and depending on immunities/powers/etc., some characters will be able to outfight almost anyone else at their level, while higher level characters will be "underpowered." I'd just like to know if, as a general guideline, he'd do okay.

Ya know what, looking over it, I think you might have missed the general rules on combat stats. If I'm getting everything right, his best attack (Stunning Fist, being rank 9 and using his high Close Attack Bonus), is a combined total of +25, appropriate for PL 13. However, his defenses have very little behind them...excluding Wind Wall (which would be awkward to use for personal defense to say the least) his defensive capabilities seem to top out at low PL 6 (+4 Parry from his Fighting, +7 Toughness from Ice Body's Protection 5 and Stamina +2). His Fort and Will are even worse, PL 2 normally, or PL 3 in Ice Body form.

So he'd technically be PL 13, but with most of his attacks underpowered for his level, and with really poor defenses.

Basically, the following combinations cannot exceed PL * 2:
Attack Bonus and Effect Rank for any given attack mode.
Parry Defense and Toughness Resistance.
Dodge Defense and Toughness Resistance.
Fortitude Resistance and Will Resistance.

I'm fairly sure the default assumption is that your primary attack form, and at least one of the two defense/toughness combos (generally the one that matches your typical attack form, so parry if you melee and dodge if you attack at range) should hit the caps. Fort/Will and the alternate defense pair...don't have to, but it's good if they do.

All defenses aside from Toughness cost 1 PP per rank to increase over the base...which, unfortunately, would eat up a fair amount of PP to get them up to par. Toughness you just get from the Protection power or the Defensive Roll advantage.

But of course, those options for trimming down the cost of your powers exist, and actually, with some careful use of alternate powers, you might be able to save points overall by doing the elemental bodies with Morph 2, Metamorph 6...although I'm not certain on that.

It's...also worth noting that the Close Attack and Ranged Attack skills are specialized to a certain attack form (basically they have a built-in "Limited" flaw). The Advantages give you the bonus to any form of attack - but, of course, cost twice as much.

Err...hope that helps!

Beleriphon

2012-04-26, 01:37 AM

Pretty much absolutely correct. It was a custom spell (modeled after Phantom Steed) meant to emulate Aang's air scooter from Avatar: The Last Airbender. The "platform" that is summoned is a small ball of air that greatly increases his speed, and can move up and down walls and across water. It would dissipate in the air, and so giving it a "peters out when not in contact with a solid surface" would probably save me some points as well. But I'm glad the mechanics support the fluff I was going for so far. It's all tied to the scooter, if he's knocked off the scooter or it disappears for any reason, he would lose all of these effects.

Just as an idea here but you don't need linked on all of those effects. You also can't have an increased action flaw on movement effects, largely because its not really that significant a flaw on sustained effect.

The much easier way to use it as such

Air Scooter
Platform Flight 9 Limited: to within five feet of any surface - 5 points

The only thing it doesn't do is increase your base speed like the Speed effect, but for all practical purposes it doesn't really matter. While you have a flight effect active any other effects such as wall crawling, water walking, or safe fall are largely extraneous.

Thanks for the help though, seeing it reflected off of someone else helps a lot. My only other question is: is he passable as a power level 10 character? Would he be able to hold his own in combat? I've read a lot and understand that power level is more of a guideline, and depending on immunities/powers/etc., some characters will be able to outfight almost anyone else at their level, while higher level characters will be "underpowered." I'd just like to know if, as a general guideline, he'd do okay.

He looks okay, as long your resistance and defenses work out in combination with your attack bonus and effect ranks your should be fine. That said I didn't see any resistances listed (toughness, will, fortitude) or your active defenses (parry and dodge). So without those you could be a glass canon.

If you have them buried somewhere in the power list my suggestion would be for ease of reading to have a separate section for the relevant combat numbers, especially if you make use of things like sustained effects.

Also, your skills seem a bit funny. Most combat skills (so ranged and close combat) require a specific attack to be listed. This can be as broad as "magic" or as narrow as Excalibur, but they should be listed. The reason being Gobold as it stands looks to be as good at shooting an assault rifle as he is at using his magical attacks, and he could have a +19 to close combat since his strength is 1. You can also have more than one Close Combat or ranged skill depending on your effect rank and attack bonus. For example you could have a Rank 15 effect and Ranged Attack (Super Blast) +5 in addition to to a Rank 5 effect and Ranged Attack (Accurate Laser Beam of Doom) +15. If you want generic ranged and close combat attack bonus you need to use the Advantages that boost those.

For example, the following is The Agent from the Xbox game Crackdown of what I mean when I refer to the sections for offense and defense, along with the specific skill listings.

The Agent - PL 10

Strength 10/4, Stamina 10/5, Agility 4, Dexterity 4, Fighting 4, Intellect 0, Awareness 0, Presence 0

Advantages
All-out Attack, Benefit, Security Clearance: Agent of The Agency, Contacts, Equipment 11, Improved Aim, Instant Up, Move-by Action, Precise Attack (Ranged, Cover), Quick Draw, Ranged Attack 3, Well-informed

Skills
Acrobatics 10 (+14), Athletics 10 (+20), Close Combat: Unarmed 6 (+10), Expertise: Super Cop 6 (+6), Investigation 8 (+8), Ranged Combat: Guns 8 (+12), Vehicles 16 (+20)

Powers
Embedded Communicator: Radio Communication 1 (Advantages: Contacts, Well-informed; Subtle: encrypted)
Genetic Modifications: Enhanced Trait 22 (Traits: Strength +6, Stamina +5)
Leaping 5 (Leap 250 feet at 60 miles/hour)
Regenerating Bio Armour (Removable)
. . Protection 4 (+4 Toughness)
. . Regeneration 5 (Every 2 rounds)

Equipment
Agency Supercar, Agency SUV, Agency Truck Cab, Agent Armoury (Grenade Launcher, Heavy Machine Gun (Ranged Multiattack Damage 5), Heavy Pistol)

Offense
Initiative +4
Grab, +4
Grenade Launcher, +7 (DC 20)
Heavy Machine Gun: Damage 5, +15 (DC 20)
Heavy Pistol, +15 (DC 19)
Throw, +7 (DC 25)
Unarmed, +10 (DC 25)

Defense
Dodge 6, Parry 6, Fortitude 10, Toughness 14, Will 10

Complications
Motivation: Justice: The Agent is motivated by his desire to see justice done in Pacific City, and he's been given the tools and authority to make that happen.
Reckless: The Agent is virtually unhindered by conventional laws, but still has to respect the civilian population of Pacific City, at least in so far as he can't indiscriminently kill them even if it is easier.

Languages
English

Power Points
Abilities 42 + Powers 41 + Advantages 21 + Skills 32 (64 ranks) + Defenses 14 = 150

Hero Lab® and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Mutants & Masterminds, Third Edition is ©2010-2011 Green Ronin Publishing, LLC. All rights reserved.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-04-26, 11:04 AM

Summon/Duplication are probably the most powerfully broken. Especially with the Heroic extra and the one that lets you summon all of the extra characters all at once. So with enough points you could summon hundreds or even thousands of extra characters all at once.

Handy if you're emulating Rider from Fate/Zero, though.

Seriously, this system can do anything as long as it's at least somewhat cinematic.

KnightDisciple

2012-05-02, 06:59 PM

A couple more things that can often swing things in your favor (though I'm speaking specifically from 2nd Ed, may it live forever after salvaging the good stuff from 3rd).

1.)Luck Control. Especially if, unlike FCPBP, you don't houserule it so that ranks of Luck under LC are limited to 1/2 PL, this can get awesome quick. Rerolls all over the place, even canceling GM Fiat (which I love that that's a mechanic!). Powerful stuff, and not bank-breakingly pricey. I've seen a character who has Luck Control as only one of several reality-bending powers.

2.)Diplomancer. You can make Diplomancer Bards from 3.5 weep with envy. By PL15, you can get up to +20 on your Charisma, and +20 skill. That's a +40 bonus. Take Skill Mastery to always always get a 50, and Ultimate Diplomacy to burn a Hero Point to get an auto-60 on a Diplomacy check. You can turn a hated enemy into a friend for life with 1 check with basically no chance of failure.
If you come back to that person a day later you can probably make them fanatically loyal. And if you're working an already-friendly crowd, bam, you're set.

I had to shove 20 Charisma and 10 Diplomacy ranks into my Sonic Controller's main Array to make people feel better about that, because you have to admit, you can be a bit annoying with that high of scores. But it's entirely rules-legal. :smallwink:

Beleriphon

2012-05-03, 12:14 PM

2.)Diplomancer. You can make Diplomancer Bards from 3.5 weep with envy. By PL15, you can get up to +20 on your Charisma, and +20 skill. That's a +40 bonus. Take Skill Mastery to always always get a 50, and Ultimate Diplomacy to burn a Hero Point to get an auto-60 on a Diplomacy check. You can turn a hated enemy into a friend for life with 1 check with basically no chance of failure.

Can't do that anymore, 3E has a skill rank max of double the campaign PL. So a PL 10 game the max you can get is a +20 in a skill from all sources. This also leaves a soft cap on attribute ranks since they all affect one skill or another. What is interest though is some skills still require ranks in them to be trained, so you might have a +20 effective skill bonus but you still can't use it.

Ranos

2012-05-03, 12:27 PM

Can't do that anymore, 3E has a skill rank max of double the campaign PL.
PL+10 actually. But yeah. Going from Hostile to Helpful is a DC45, so with Ultimate Diplomacy, Extraordinary Effort, and a diplo score of +20, it's doable. You'll just be exhausted and short a hero point. A negative circumstance modifier could possibly get in your way, but at worst you'd go from Hostile to Favorable.
A decent way to make a more subtle and insidious kind of mind-controller/brainwasher.

KnightDisciple

2012-05-03, 02:51 PM

Can't do that anymore, 3E has a skill rank max of double the campaign PL. So a PL 10 game the max you can get is a +20 in a skill from all sources.
I can't help you're playing the Fail Edition. :smalltongue:
Slightly more seriously, I was also talking about PL 15 capabilities. I think 2e PL10 cap ends up being...+30?

...Wait, so if you have an HP and use Ultimate Diplomacy, you're still Fatigued? :smallconfused:

Ranos

2012-05-03, 03:08 PM

No, the exhausted was because of extraordinary effort. I was thinking of PL10.
Diplomacy +20, Ultimate Diplomacy +20, Extraordinary effort +5.

Since 2E has higher cap on skills, it would probably be easier to do this there.

hiryuu

2012-05-05, 06:01 AM

So what is broken in 2E, both powerful and useless?

Everything.

Seriously. Everything can be broken. Easily, I might add. Example: Strike 10 (Area (Burst), Progression (Increase Area) x18) for 38 points lets you punch everyone and everything on PLANET EARTH with the force of an anti-tank missile. To go a little more expensive, Confusion (Contagious, Duration 3) turns the planet into a permanent insane asylum the first time you use it for 50 points. A Sustained Blast never stops damaging its target until you go to sleep. Mental Transform is super cheap and can let you irreversibly turn people into mind slaves. Giving a character a Variable structure is like putting a shark in an aquarium filled with blood and then charging (not paying) people ten bucks a pop to stick their hands in it.

As a total aside: Mutants & Masterminds is not a game where the goal is to one-up your optimization over other players or the GM. It is not a game where RAW is law. The RAI in M&M should be far stronger, and the system is designed to be modular so that each group can adjust the RAI as they see fit. It can be safely said that if you go into a M&M game with intent to make the GM/players cry, you are playing it wrong. Descriptors are king here; they will tell you what you can and can't do far better than the rules will, because the rules exist only to facilitate your descriptors. If you are a puddle of sentient slime, the character should be built to do the things a puddle of sentient slime can do (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWkPAKttLEo). The powers you have should reflect what you intend to do. If you go into the game wanting to break it, you will. Hard. Often without even trying (the contagious confusion example happened in a game I was running. The player wasn't even aware of how nasty it really was).

As above, interaction skills are crazy. Especially when coupled with Mind Reading and Mind Control powers and Mental Transform. I've started using a sliding scale, but I also don't like punishing people for specializing.
______________________

I have been watching Generator Rex. I would like to fuse that and the X-men and run a game focusing on the underground culture/community of EVOs that has sprung up in the wake of the Incident.

I am using M&M right now to run a game in which the PCs (a heavy metal wizard with a holy guitar, an office worker and his pet goldfish, and a car-stealing vampire) are traveling across a American-folklore-inspired post-apocalyptic landscape in a 1953 Chevy bel air with a sentient iPod dock battling the evil forces of The Man.

Particle_Man

2012-05-05, 10:50 PM

Quellian-dyrae

2012-05-06, 02:29 AM

So, winged monkeys a la The Wizard of Oz (the movie) are awesome, super-intelligent monkeys are awesome, who wants to stat me up a rules-legal PC playable super-intelligent winged monkey? PL 10 unless you really want a different PL.

You know what, why not?

Stats
ABILITIES
Str 0, Sta 5, Agl 5, Dex 5, Fgt 0, Int 5, Awe 0, Pre 0. [40]

SKILLS
Intimidation 5 (+5), Perception 10 (+10), Ranged Combat [Thrown Weapons] 5 (+10), Sleight of Hand 15 (+20), Stealth 15 (+20), Technology 15 (+20). [33]

ADVANTAGES
Evasion, Improved Initiative, Move-by Action, Quick Draw, Throwing Mastery 10, Hide in Plain Sight, Inventor, Improvised Tools, Skill Mastery (Technology). [18]

DEFENSES
Dodge 5 (+10), Parry 5 (+5), Fortitude 5 (+10), Will 10 (+10). [25]

POWERS
Feathered Wings - Flight 2 (Speed 120'), Winged. [2]
Eagle Eye - Senses (Extended Sight 2). [2]
Super Intelligence - Quickness 6, Limited (Inventing). [3]
Shield Generator - Protection 5, Sustained, Removable. [4]
BOMBS! - Apply the Ranged and Area Modifiers to Damage from Strength and Throwing Mastery; Feature - Can be delayed for up to 5 rounds. [21+2]
[A] Smart Bombs - Apply the Ranged, Homing, and Multiattack Modifiers to Damage from Strength and Throwing Mastery.
[A] Blink Bomb - Teleport 10, Turnabout, Affects Self or Others, Attack, Limited (Target must initially be on the ground).

STATS
Unarmed: Attack +0. Damage +0 (DC 15).
Throw Anything (Including Bombs): Attack +10. Damage +10 (DC 25).
Dodge +10. Parry +5. Toughness +10 (+5 w/o Shield Generator). Fortitude +10. Will +10.

Notes
I figured since Inventing itself is both fairly powerful and technically both a physical and mental process, it didn't qualify for the "One Task" modifier for Quickness. Even so, you can basically automatically invent 20 PP devices in a bit under two hours, or jury-rig a 15 PP device in one second. Due to Skill Mastery, you can do so even while rushed or under duress, and thanks to Improvised Tools, you don't need any of that fancy equipment stuff.

Which makes sense. See, the bombs are powers, not devices, so basically this guy can whip up bombs, guided cluster bombs, and teleporter bombs, out of, eh, whatever's lying around.

He can pluck the feathers from his wings and hurl them like darts for rank 10 damage.

Also, it's not spelled out in the rules, but I'm pretty sure you can use your massive Stealth and Hide in Plain Sight to sneak up on someone, use your equally high Sleight of Hand to plant a bomb on them (Delayed feature!), and then just run off to watch the fun.

The Blink Bomb is limited to targets on the ground because it basically works like a ninja smoke bomb; you throw it to the ground, there's a bright flash, and the target is up to four miles away. Against enemies you really don't want to get targeted by, you can use your Extended Sight to scope things out, and then just Blink Bomb in, throw a feather or a rock or something, and Turnabout back to safety.

I'm pretty sure everything is rules-legal (well, the plant-a-bomb trick may not be), and should be quite effective without being particularly broken, I think.

Particle_Man

2012-05-06, 09:29 AM

Merci! :smallcool: It even has "The Evil Midnight Bomber What Bombs at Midnight" feel. :smallsmile:

Grod_The_Giant

2012-05-07, 04:24 PM

What's the difference between a "sense" and a "sense type?"

tonberrian

2012-05-07, 06:51 PM

What's the difference between a "sense" and a "sense type?"

Infravision is a sense. Normal vision (what humans get) is a sense. The ability to see auras which tell you a person's status is a sense.

Sense types are categories which senses fall into. In this case, all these senses fall into the Visual sense type.

Grod_The_Giant

2012-05-08, 11:36 PM

Infravision is a sense. Normal vision (what humans get) is a sense. The ability to see auras which tell you a person's status is a sense.

Sense types are categories which senses fall into. In this case, all these senses fall into the Visual sense type.

So, for your average human, sense types will only come into play if you have other powers granting you extra senses, such as seeing into the IR spectrum or hearing radio waves?

Thanks for the prompt response. Two more nagging questions:

What kind of defense resists the Move Object power? I mean, I assume I use the power's rank in place of Strength for combat maneuvers, and I suppose I'd use a Ranged Combat skill for thrown objects, but what if I want to grab a guy? More importantly, what if I apply the Damaging modifier?
What happens when I have a pair of abilities maxed out, and one of them gains a temporary bonus? For example, Captain McAwesome has a Dodge of 8 and a Toughness of 12, and Red Flashlight uses a Protection (Affects Others) power to grant him another 4 points of Toughness. Does it force his Dodge down? Does it just not work? Does it override the usual PL limit? Does the player choose how to alter his stats within the PL limit?

Beleriphon

2012-05-09, 10:47 AM

So, for your average human, sense types will only come into play if you have other powers granting you extra senses, such as seeing into the IR spectrum or hearing radio waves?

Thanks for the prompt response. Two more nagging questions:

What kind of defense resists the Move Object power? I mean, I assume I use the power's rank in place of Strength for combat maneuvers, and I suppose I'd use a Ranged Combat skill for thrown objects, but what if I want to grab a guy? More importantly, what if I apply the Damaging modifier?

Use the grabbing/grappling rules for grabbing a guy.

What happens when I have a pair of abilities maxed out, and one of them gains a temporary bonus? For example, Captain McAwesome has a Dodge of 8 and a Toughness of 12, and Red Flashlight uses a Protection (Affects Others) power to grant him another 4 points of Toughness. Does it force his Dodge down? Does it just not work? Does it override the usual PL limit? Does the player choose how to alter his stats within the PL limit?
[/QUOTE]

Usually this doesn't work, its part of the reason that buffing characters aren't terribly useful in M&M. That said, its up to the GM to determine the exact effects, but for me I wouldn't usually allow this given that you could do it every single combat.

Also, this can be a problem with Growth/Shrinking as well.

Grod_The_Giant

2012-05-09, 06:51 PM

Use the grabbing/grappling rules for grabbing a guy.

Right. So, I have a 14 rank Move Object power with the Damaging modifier, and range increased to Perception. My various attack options look like:

"Ranged Strike Attack:" Target must make a DC 24 Strength check or take 14 "damage" (effect rank 14, roll a DC 29 Toughness check, yadda yadda yadda takes too long to say).
"Ranged Grapple:" Target must resist the attempt with a DC 24 Strength or Dodge check. One degree of failure means he's restrained, 2 degrees of failure means he's bound. Once he's caught, I can squeeze him for 14 "damage," resisted by another DC 24 Strength check.
"Ranged Disarm:" Target and I make opposed checks, me with a +14 and him with +Strength. If I win, he drops the weapon.
"Ranged Trip:" Target and I make opposed checks, me with a +14 and him with Acrobatics or Athletics. If I win, he's knocked prone.
Thrown object: I make an attack roll, adding Dexterity and a "Ranged Combat: [Move Object Power]" skill against the target's Dodge defense. If I succeed, I deal 14 "damage."

Also (I know, I know; I'm running a campaign soon, and want to clear up some lingering rule questions that'll probably come up) is there a "Knockback" type extra somewhere? I know there are optional rules for knockback somewhere, but I'd love to be able to pick up and throw people with my telekinesis.

The_Snark

2012-05-09, 08:38 PM

"Ranged Strike Attack:" Target must make a DC 24 Strength check or take 14 "damage" (effect rank 14, roll a DC 29 Toughness check, yadda yadda yadda takes too long to say).
"Ranged Grapple:" Target must resist the attempt with a DC 24 Strength or Dodge check. One degree of failure means he's restrained, 2 degrees of failure means he's bound. Once he's caught, I can squeeze him for 14 "damage," resisted by another DC 24 Strength check.
"Ranged Disarm:" Target and I make opposed checks, me with a +14 and him with +Strength. If I win, he drops the weapon.
"Ranged Trip:" Target and I make opposed checks, me with a +14 and him with Acrobatics or Athletics. If I win, he's knocked prone.

Unless you have the Perception range extra, you'll need to make an attack roll (probably versus the target's Dodge) for all of these. I'm not sure why the Ranged Strike would be resisted with Strength, either - that only applies if you're grappling.

As for knockback: ... I could have sworn there was a Knockback extra that did just that, but I can't even find the optional rule for knockback right now. I know the last edition had something like it.

For picking people up and throwing them, though, you should probably just use a grapple.

Ranos

2012-05-09, 08:46 PM

Also (I know, I know; I'm running a campaign soon, and want to clear up some lingering rule questions that'll probably come up) is there a "Knockback" type extra somewhere? I know there are optional rules for knockback somewhere, but I'd love to be able to pick up and throw people with my telekinesis.

Not really. Besides that optional rule, the closest I could think of would be Move Object with Limited (Must let go at the end of your turn), Limited (Direction -Away), Alternate Resistance (Toughness) and Linked (Your damage power).
Unless I'm mistaken, if the target is hurt by your Damage effect, he also gets "grappled" until the end of your turn, allowing you to use your move action to push him away, resisted by a Strength check.

I have a question of my own : How does the Power option of Extra effort work for sustained and continuous powers ? For example, say one of my players has Create with the Continuous extra, and he creates a tougher object than usual with extra effort. Does the object revert to normal by itself after a round ? Seemed slightly weird.

Grod_The_Giant

2012-05-09, 09:18 PM

Unless you have the Perception range extra, you'll need to make an attack roll (probably versus the target's Dodge) for all of these. I'm not sure why the Ranged Strike would be resisted with Strength, either - that only applies if you're grappling.
I did. I used Strength bcause in the table on page 94, it says that Move Object is resisted by Strength :smallconfused:

I have a question of my own : How does the Power option of Extra effort work for sustained and continuous powers ? For example, say one of my players has Create with the Continuous extra, and he creates a tougher object than usual with extra effort. Does the object revert to normal by itself after a round ? Seemed slightly weird.
Not sure... I'd let it last until the end of the scene, like a power stunt does.

Beleriphon

2012-05-10, 12:07 PM

Right. So, I have a 14 rank Move Object power with the Damaging modifier, and range increased to Perception. My various attack options look like:

I assume you're PL 14 then, since you can't have Perception range attacks with ranks higher than the character/campaign PL.

"Ranged Strike Attack:" Target must make a DC 24 Strength check or take 14 "damage" (effect rank 14, roll a DC 29 Toughness check, yadda yadda yadda takes too long to say).

You would need the Damaging extra, but yes that's more or less how it works. Again, keep in mind that you are PL limited with Perception range attacks since they don't allow trade offs (having no attack roll).

You can apply the Damaging extra to only 10 ranks for a PL 10 game though. It would probably be less expensive to just AE a ranged damage power though.

"Ranged Grapple:" Target must resist the attempt with a DC 24 Strength or Dodge check. One degree of failure means he's restrained, 2 degrees of failure means he's bound. Once he's caught, I can squeeze him for 14 "damage," resisted by another DC 24 Strength check.

I'd have to check the grapple rules, but that looks right up front.

"Ranged Disarm:" Target and I make opposed checks, me with a +14 and him with +Strength. If I win, he drops the weapon.
"Ranged Trip:" Target and I make opposed checks, me with a +14 and him with Acrobatics or Athletics. If I win, he's knocked prone.
Thrown object: I make an attack roll, adding Dexterity and a "Ranged Combat: [Move Object Power]" skill against the target's Dodge defense. If I succeed, I deal 14 "damage."

Move Object doesn't by default provide access to specific maneuvers, although it allows the application of strength at range. That said, those specific maneuvers are specifically allowed.

Also (I know, I know; I'm running a campaign soon, and want to clear up some lingering rule questions that'll probably come up) is there a "Knockback" type extra somewhere? I know there are optional rules for knockback somewhere, but I'd love to be able to pick up and throw people with my telekinesis.

Knockback is handled as a complication by default, there are no formal rules in 3E, in 2E there certainly are and they are found under the damage section. That said, the 3E Gamemaster's Guide does have rules for this, plus a bunch of extra villainous archetypes, bases and maps, and a bunch of optional rules including mass combat (ie. Superman fights the entire Third Reich rules).

Using Move Object to throw is the same as throwing anything else, you need to grab it and the throwing distance is based on effective strength (ie. the rank of Move Object) vs the mass rank of the object. Most human size opponents will probably be mass rank 2. Providing you have are Rank 14 you could throw a 200lb object up to 16 miles.

Grod_The_Giant

2012-05-10, 12:45 PM

I assume you're PL 14 then, since you can't have Perception range attacks with ranks higher than the character/campaign PL.[QUOTE]
Really? That's good to know.

[QUOTE]You would need the Damage extra, but yes that's more or less how it works. Again, keep in mind that you are PL limited to Perception range attacks since they don't allow trade offs (having no attack roll).

You can apply the Damaging extra to only 10 ranks for a PL 10 game though. It would probably be less expensive to just AE a ranged damage power though.
Can you deal damage by "squeezing" a foe in a grapple without the Damage extra?

Knockback is handled as a complication by default, there are no formal rules in 3E, in 2E there certainly are and they are found under the damage section. Using Move Object to throw is the same as throwing anything else, you need to grab it and the throwing distance is based on effective strength (ie. the rank of Move Object) vs the mass rank of the object. Most human size opponents will probably be mass rank 2. Providing you have are Rank 14 you could throw a 200lb object up to 16 miles.
Ok. How 'bout a homebrew solution:

Knockback Extra-- Flat 1/rank
An opponent successfully struck by a power with the Knockback extra must make a Strength resistance check (DC 10 + ranks in Knockback, +2/degree of success on the attack roll, or degrees of failure against the modified power's resistance check). If they fail, they are thrown back a distance equal to your ranks in Knockback, +1/degree of failure against the resistance check. If they cannot move the full distance, they take damage equal to the rank of the remaining distance. The effect of the modified power is resolved before the effect of this extra.
For example, Captain McAwesome purchases 2 ranks of the Knockback extra for his laser hammer (Close Strike 10). He strikes Minion A with one degree of success. Minion A succeeds on his Toughness check against the hammer's damage, but fails the Strength check with no extra degrees of failure, throwing him 120 feet.

Beleriphon

2012-05-10, 01:10 PM

Really? That's good to know.

Yup, you can use trade offs at PL 10 for a Rank 14 attack effect, but you'd only have a +6 bonus to hit from all sources.

Can you deal damage by "squeezing" a foe in a grapple without the Damage extra?

Yes, you certainly can.

Ok. How 'bout a homebrew solution:

Knockback Extra-- Flat 1/rank
An opponent successfully struck by a power with the Knockback extra must make a Strength resistance check (DC 10 + ranks in Knockback, +2/degree of success on the attack roll, or degrees of failure against the modified power's resistance check). If they fail, they are thrown back a distance equal to your ranks in Knockback, +1/degree of failure against the resistance check. If they cannot move the full distance, they take damage equal to the rank of the remaining distance. The effect of the modified power is resolved before the effect of this extra.
For example, Captain McAwesome purchases 2 ranks of the Knockback extra for his laser hammer (Close Strike 10). He strikes Minion A with one degree of success. Minion A succeeds on his Toughness check against the hammer's damage, but fails the Strength check with no extra degrees of failure, throwing him 120 feet.

Sorry, I updated my original message since I noticed I forgot to mention this. The Gamemasters Guide for 3E does included some suggested rules. These assume a failure of two degrees, or more, on the Toughness resistance check.

Knockback = Damage - Toughness - modifiers

They basically work as above, where the number you get is how far the knock back is on the distance column of the Ranks and Measures table. -5 or Less is a nill distance, -3 or -4 is prone, and the rest are as listed. Modifiers include subtracting Features related to high weight or mass, adding Quirks having to do with low weight or mass, and adding subtracting Growth ranks and adding Shrinking ranks.

For example:

Super-Strong punches MicroMan. Super-Strong has a Strength of 10, MicroMan has a Toughness of 8 and is using Shrinking at rank 12.

Thus our knockback is equal to:

10-8+12 = 14
Rank 14 Distance is 16 miles. The Tiny Terror of MicroMan is launched 16 miles away. If he hits anything the suggestion is to treat is a Slam attack for hitting other characters. If the character on the receiving end of Knockback hits an object they take damage equal to the Knockback number, or the object toughness, whichever is higher. The object takes damage equal to the Knockback, and if its destroyed the character keeps going out to the maximum distance doing this each time for each object in the way.

When the Hulk punches Iron Man from Times Square to the Eiffel Tower the Knockback and attendant damage is probably enough to kill Tony using these rules.

DuReign

2012-05-10, 01:20 PM

Beleriphon

2012-05-10, 01:43 PM

Just to add in: Knockback in 3e occurs just like it did in 2e, whenever someone fails a Toughness resistance check to Damage by two degrees (fail by 5), and the attacker can choose NOT to Knockback.

A more reliable "knockback" power would be just some sort of Move Object, Limited: Only Away and possibly Limited: No Grabbing or Duration: Instant or whatever necessary to get the "Force Push" feel. Such an effect could be linked to other attack effects, or you could simply add Damaging to it.

Something akin to this from the Anvil Threat Report?

Bowling Ball Charge, Baby! Oh, Yeah!: Reaction Damage 7 (Limited to While Charging) and linked Reaction Move Object 4 (Limited to knocking objects he strikes back/away)
• 37 points

Mystic Muse

2012-05-12, 12:51 AM

I'm making a character for a game, and I'm wondering about something. In the damage power, it says that if you choose to have your damage effect be strength based, you add your strength and rank together to determine the rank of the attack. I want to add multi-attack to the power, but am unsure what the rank I'm supposed to use there is. Do I treat the rank as 9 since that's what my strength and ranks in the damage power add up to, or do I treat it as 4 since that's all the actual ranks in the ability I have?

Also, with multi-attack, am I able to use all three options or do I have to choose one and put more ranks in for each additional option?

Thank you for your help.:smallsmile:

Otacon17

2012-05-12, 01:26 AM

Today, I found a note that I'd scribbled down a few weeks ago with some ideas for some supervillains. Most of them were fairly descriptive, but one of them just said "Rushmore." I don't remember what I meant by this, so now I'm wondering which would be better: a giant Mt. Rushmore golem, or a group of four evil, superpowered presidents (the four carved into Mt. Rushmore, obviously). What do people think? And, should the latter be chosen, what superpowers would they have?

Mystic Muse

2012-05-12, 01:31 AM

I'm making a character for a third edition game, and I'm wondering about something. In the damage power, it says that if you choose to have your damage effect be strength based, you add your strength and rank together to determine the rank of the attack. I want to add multi-attack to the power, but am unsure what the rank I'm supposed to use there is. Do I treat the rank as 9 since that's what my strength and ranks in the damage power add up to, or do I simply treat it as the actual number of ranks I put into the power?

Also, with multi-attack, am I able to use all three options or do I have to choose one and put more ranks in for each additional option?

These are probably supposed to be (And probably are) pretty obvious, but I want to be sure before doing anything on my character sheet.

Thank you for your help.:smallsmile:

Ranos

2012-05-12, 11:40 AM

I can't answer your first question. I only count the actual damage ranks for extras, but I can't be certain it's actually how you're supposed to do it.

As for the second question, yes, all three options are available the moment you take the extra.

Quellian-dyrae

2012-05-12, 12:56 PM

It is both rank + str, at least as long as you want the strength-based ranks to benefit from the effect.

If you choose, a Damage effect can be Strength-based—something like a melee weapon—allowing your Strength Damage to add to it. You add your Strength and Damage ranks together when determining the rank of the attack. Any modifiers applied to your Damage must also apply to your Strength rank if its bonus damage is to benefit from them.

Ranos

2012-05-12, 01:32 PM

So if you have a melee-based damage power with a limitation, that limitation must also apply to your strength ? That doesn't make a lot of sense.

Quellian-dyrae

2012-05-14, 02:45 PM

Not quite; it can apply to your Strength, if you want the cost Modifier from the limitation to count for it. And even then, it would only do so when using that power.

For example, a character with Str 5 and a power Strength-based Damage 5, Area, Limited (Only against targets on the ground) would be able to slam the ground and create a shockwave type thing that damages everyone around it. That power would cost 5 PP (Damage +5, Area +10, Limited -10), and cause no damage to any targets not on the ground. But the character could still use its default Strength "power" just like normal, a single-target Rank 5 close attack.

Alternately, it could choose to only apply the Limited to the Damage ranks. That would raise the cost of the power by 5, since only five ranks are Limited, and then targets on the ground would take Rank 10 damage, and others Rank 5.

JusticeBlade

2012-11-30, 11:37 AM

Greetings! I am a freshly designated Mutants & Mastermind GM for my group and as such I'm trying to learn how Powers in 3e can be combined and calculated for correct cost and intended effect.

This is mostly so I can both be a knowledge source when the Players create characters because only a few of them actually read the source material, and so I can create varied antagonists or interesting situations.

So battery of questions time! I shall try from simplest to most quizzical.

1) Is it fair game to design traps based on Powers? Like say, an Affliction poison or Snare? There are sample hazards in 3e, but I was wondering how to play out something like a villains trap door hallway into acid or flooding a chamber with gas.

My guess initially is something like Perception checks to notice the effect, they react by doing something intelligent (hopefully), but then where I get a little confused is how weak or strong the trap should be? Is there a trap by PL guide somewhere I'm missing or do I just wing it?

2) Cost calculations for Powers, I seem to recall that taking the cost down to 0 for a Rank of a Power doesn't make it free, but what does it make it? How does one get a 0.5 Power Point for example or half-Rank?

3) Damage and Effect, in a PL 10 game, the total damage bonus cannot exceed 10 yes? And the total bonus from a Ranks effect cannot go higher that 20? Is it then just 10 for Powers that have Damaged or Damaging added to them? I'm a bit confused with trade-offs as well but it seems from reading back in the forum that is usually Other Defense + Toughness =/= 20+ in a PL game.

4) Okay here's something specific in regards to a Power I'm trying to create for an Antagonist. The intention is this:

"The villain is constantly protected by and able to deflect any kinetic, force or energy attack directed that comes into contact with his body, and be able to switch to different forces if necessary, such as gravity, radiation, sonic vibrations or other similar 'scientific' energy sources, as well as increase the force of the deflection. He sustains this field with subconscious calculation that ceases if he is rendered unconscious or unable to calculate."

And what I came up with is this...

Vector Deflection - Deflect, Attack(+0), Permanent, Sustained (+0), Reaction (+3), Reflect (+1), Redirect (+1), Variable Descriptor (+1) = 7 per rank

Now should I add an Immunity power to this character for Kinetic damage or attacks or can I just boost the Ranks of the Power so that he can 'Deflect' nearly all but the most cunning or powerful attacks, this includes Deflecting the environment, like if someone flips the ground he's on and he hits a wall, does this power trigger to 'Deflect' the Slam Damage and Knockback or is that an application of Immunity with a Limited Flaw? Also does the 'Damage' of the Attack Extra scale with the Rank of the Power?

So basically, if someone hits him, they don't just take their attack reflected back at them, but HIS attack back at them as he's increasing the speed and force of their initial attack?

Metahuman1

2013-03-14, 10:50 PM

ZenoForce88

2013-05-17, 12:26 PM

Hello, people of awsomeness! I was wondering if I could get some assistance. See I am trying to build the Young Justice version of Robin, fairly straight forward when you think about it, considering the number of Batman builds and Robin builds all over the place and in the Heroes and Villains book. Where I am having trouble is designing Robins little wrist computer. I just can't figure out how to build that. If anyone can please assist with this, I would be very grateful.

Quick Edit: Metahuman1, The maximum points you can put into a power change wildly depending on a number of factors. The effect(a power is one or more Effects combined) + Skill/Ability in question for a PL10 can not be over 20, so if you have a damage effect of 10, your attack bonus form skill ability and Advantages can not be over 10. Like wise if the effect boost your skills in some way, they can not be over 20, and the combination of Dodge+Toughness, Parry+Toughness, Fort+Will, can not be over 20. So you could pour ALL your points into one power(unadvised) so long as it meets these requirements. As for a PL10 GL? That could take more time, if you have the DC Adventures Heroes and Villains Vol.1 book, you can take any of the GLs and simply lower the ranks where needed. If you need more help then that add me to skype (SaffronKnight88) and we can work togeather.

Quellian-dyrae

2013-05-17, 01:38 PM

What's the computer do, exactly?

ZenoForce88

2013-05-17, 01:45 PM

From what I could tell in the show, it was holographic touch screen thing, projected over his glove, from the glove he could pull out a USB Cable, and plug into another computer system, to bypass it.

Quellian-dyrae

2013-05-17, 01:56 PM

Probably just two Equipment Points for the holographic computer. For the bypass thing, Enhanced Technology {whatever} (Limited [Computers]) Linked Comprehend 2 (Machines, Limited [Computers]), Quirk (Must plug into a given computer to apply to it).

Elana

2013-05-17, 02:34 PM

Ok, Mutants and Masterminds 3rd edition.

1: What's the highest number of points one can put into a single power for a PL 10 character?

2: How would one stat out a create power for a PL 10 character who's attempting to Imitate Green Lanterns constructs?
1) if we assume a starting PL10 character with 150 points, who reduces all his abilities to -5 and picks a non combat power 230 points

2) Now since M&m 3e is the same rule system as DC adventures, I do this simple and just write down the part of Hals power ring that deals with constructs:

Force Manipulation: Array (36 points)
• Force Blast: Ranged Damage 18, Dynamic • 37 points
• Force Constructs: Create 18 , Dynamic• 2 points
• Lifting: Move Object 18, Dynamic • 2 points
• Force Bubble: Affects Others, Burst Area, and Ranged on
Immunity 10 (Life Support) • 2 points
• Mobile Constructs: Create 12, Movable, Dynamic • 2 points

ZenoForce88

2013-05-19, 01:39 PM

I'd have to completely Disagree with Elana, you can easily make a PL10 GL, it just takes a little working.

Hero Name: GL-109
Identity: Beverly Carson
Gender: Female Age: 22 Hight: 5' 9"
Weight: 124lb Eyes: Forest Green Hair: Golden Blond
Group Affliation: GLC Base of Operations: Mobile Power Level: 10
Power Point Totals: Abilities 36 +Powers 82 +Advantages 3 +Skills 19 +Defenses 10 = 150

Abilities: 36
Str:1 Sta:3 Agl:2 Dex:3 Fgt:3 Int:1 Awe:3 Pre:2

Defenses: 10
Dodge: 5 Parry: 3 Fortitude: 3 Toughness: 3(11) Will: 10

Skills: 19
Athletics 3(4)
Close Combat
Unarmed 2(5)
Invetigation 8(10)
Perception 7(10)
Persuasion 6(8)
Ranged Combat
Power Ring 4(7)
Technology 8(9)

Advantages: 3
Fearless: Immune to all Fear Effects.
Jack of All Trades: Use any Skill untrained
Improved Initiative: +4 to Initiative Checks

Powers: 82
Power Ring: ~ 102(Removeable -20) ~82
AI and Database: ~2
Feature 2(Connected to Central Power Battery on Oa) ~2
Communication: ~1
Senses 1(Communication Link to Central Power Battery) ~1
Flight: ~22
Flight 7 ~14
Movement 4(Environmental Adaption:Zero-G, Space Travel 3) ~8
Force Field: ~24
Impervious Protection 7 ~14
Immunity 10(Life Support) ~10
Scanning Beam: ~6
Senses 6(Analytical Auditory, Chemical, and Visual) ~6
Universal Translator: ~8
Comprehend Languages 4 ~8
Force Manipulation Array: 39(30)
Force Bubble: Ranged Burst Area Immunity 10(Life Support), Dynamic ~31(30)[3/r]
Mobile Constructs: Create 10(Moveable), Dynamic ~2(30)[3/r]
Force Blast: Ranged Damage 10, Dynamic ~2(20)[2/r]
Force Constructs: Create 10, Dynamic ~2(20)[2/r]
Lifting: Move Object 10, Dynamic ~2(20)[2/r]

Offense Initiative: 2
Unarmed 5 Close, Damage 1
Power Ring 7 Ranged, Damage 10

So as you can see, this is a perfectly viable PL10 Green Lantern, and can easly be addapted to anything similar to GL just with the changes of some words, or the removal or addition of powers, so long as the total points don't change much.

Metahuman1

2013-05-26, 10:58 AM

Those builds are awesome.

Here's another one. Do we have a Power Level 10 build for Marvel Comics Hero Daredevil floating around anywhere?

NooDM

2014-08-16, 07:01 PM

Hello all, thought here would cover the question line I have building characters in 3e.
One of my players had said that he found the of all the abilities, he considered Stamina to be the most worthwhile. Followed by Strength and Fighting.
In his words it was better to put points into the skills and defences directly as it is 2pp per 1 point in ability, and 1pp per 2 skill points.
It showed in his 2 characters he had 20 Sta and 10 Sta respectively (second was non combat too).
(This was for a 3 session trial for our group)

So with that said, I guess my question is, does anyone have good examples/cases for ability scores being efficient choice for build?

Will help for my Villains as GM and Heroes when I get to be a player.
Thanks to those who help this newly supers player :smallbiggrin:

Quellian-dyrae

2014-08-16, 07:42 PM

Your player is mostly correct, except he counts Fighting as useful.

Strength is a pretty good Ability, if you use it well. If you have Strength and some other, non-Strength-based means of attack as two entirely separate capabilities (i.e. not arrayed), it's not a good deal (arrays for multiple combat options are awesome, separately purchasing "backup" options will burn through your points for minimal benefit). But if you make sure you're not buying your damage power twice, yeah, Strength gives you Damage and Lifting (each valued at basically 1 point/rank), Athletics as a side-benefit (it's not a great skill, but hey, you're above the cost of the Ability anyway, so whatever), and opens up Grabbing as an attack option, which is pound for pound quite powerful if you focus on it.

Stamina is the Gold Standard of useful Abilities. It gives you Toughness and Fortitude; costs 2/rank, gives 2/rank in benefits, and they're benefits that pretty much every character wants. Every rank of Stamina is a rank of No Wasted Points.

Dexterity and Fighting have a unique disadvantage compared to other Abilities. On paper, they are worth their points (Dex gives Ranged Attack, Vehicles, and Sleight of Hand; Fgt gives Melee Attack and Parry). However, the vast majority of the time, you control what you attack with. A character with an array of both melee and ranged attacks who makes all of its attacks Accurate 5 gets a +10 attack bonus with all of its attacks and it costs a total of 5 PP. A character who pumps Dexterity and Fighting to 10 has the same +10 attack bonus with all of its attacks, but has spent 20 PP just getting the same accuracy (it actually spent 40 PP, but twenty of it goes towards other stuff). Dexterity is also hindered further since Sleight of Hand and Vehicles...honestly aren't very good skills.

Agility is solid for those who will use it. Dodge, Acrobatics, Stealth, and Initiative actually add up to 2.25 PP per rank. Unlike Stamina, not every character will really make use of Acrobatics and Stealth (for my money, Toughness is also more valuable than Dodge/Parry, but that's another matter), so it's not for everyone, but if you want to be all ninja-like, there are worse things you can do with your points.

Intellect is good if you get Jack of All Trades and/or Eidetic Memory, at which point it basically gives you Expertise (All). If you don't want to be a know-it-all, you're probably just as well off buying the skills individually. Remember that all Intellect skills are Trained Only; I'd need to check to be sure, but I think that means that if you don't either take Jack of All Trades or at least a rank in each skill, you're burning points every time you invest in Intellect.

Awareness is perfectly solid, possibly up there with Stamina. Will, Perception, and Insight amount to 2 PP per rank and they're useful to just about anyone.

Presence cries in the corner; granting only Deception, Intimidation, and Persuasion, it doesn't even make up its cost, a fact only exacerbated by the fact that the three skills all basically let you do the same sort of thing, just in different ways. Regardless, even if you want to be a social butterfly, you're better off just buying the skills individually.

However, above everything, the single biggest flaw of the Abilities system is that they come with the blasted baggage of ability scores being treated as key defining physical and mental features of your character (and if they're too low they make you easy to take out with Weaken effects), when in reality all they really are is a bulk package of purchases that nonetheless mostly don't come with a discount. As a result, there's this fake incentive to put a few points here and there to build a more "well-rounded" character. What this actually results in is burning a bunch of points for a broad range of trivial bonuses that won't actually get you anywhere in any serious situation. So even the useful ones can kinda be a trap if you're kinda scattershooting purchases.

NooDM

2014-08-16, 08:33 PM

Huh, Hadn't thought of how Agility could be so useful, might well be good for swift types.

By "You control what you attack with" bit, I imagine you mean the determined subject for the Skill Ranged Combat?
Which makes me think of how there might be a jack of trades thing, though Advantage Ranged Attack only does 1+ per pp.

Am I right to think increasing the abilities is a bit of a increasing in a group of things rather than one part?
(Like say the difference between being good with all ranged attacks vs being good with you energy blast)

Makes me wonder if some custom advantage or 2 could put a bit more use into those abilities like Fighting and Dexterity that seem a bit worrying.

That athletics leads me to another point. Say someone has Speed 10 and at least something like 10 Athletics, is it assumed they can make an Athletics check against 15 to increase up to 11 or is that a bit GM territory?

And one more which confuse me to no end... The Parts where it says *Insert ability* check when "specific skill doesn't apply". I don't think I will come across something that isn't covered by a skill like this suggests.
It seems to be here for Sta, Agl, Dex, Int, Awe & Pre.

Thanks again Quellian-dyrae, What you have said has provided me with food for thought to make the character creation better in future.

Quellian-dyrae

2014-08-16, 08:59 PM

By "You control what you attack with" bit, I imagine you mean the determined subject for the Skill Ranged Combat?
Which makes me think of how there might be a jack of trades thing, though Advantage Ranged Attack only does 1+ per pp.

Yeah, the Advantages are also pretty inefficient.

A jack of all trades is someone with:

Melee Weapons Master: Damage 10 (Multiattack, Accurate 5, Innate, Variable Descriptor 1 [Melee Weapons]).
--Alternate Power - Ranged Weapons Master (Damage 10, Ranged, Accurate 5, Innate, Variable Descriptor 1 [Ranged Weapons]).

Boom. PL-appropriate attack and damage with any weapon or unarmed, can't be Nullified, and the point cost isn't excessive. Grab Accurate Attack, Defensive Attack, Power Attack, and All Out Attack and use them to "fluff" different weapons or fighting styles (Power Attack with heavy two-handed weapons, Defensive Attack with a shield or Aikido, Accurate Attack with light weapons, etc).

Am I right to think increasing the abilities is a bit of a increasing in a group of things rather than one part?
(Like say the difference between being good with all ranged attacks vs being good with you energy blast)

Precisely.

Makes me wonder if some custom advantage or 2 could put a bit more use into those abilities like Fighting and Dexterity that seem a bit worrying.

Ehh...it'd be weird to balance, probably, and they'd be kinda mandatory Advantages (although Intellect sort of has something like that in Eidetic Memory/Jack of All Trades). For my money, you're better off just making sure everyone understands that the Abilities are package options, not mandatory things that are important for defining your characters (you'll get a lot more interesting detail from getting a skill or two up to PL, or grabbing some cool power or a couple interesting Alternate Effects than you will from spending eight points to say your character is kinda-sorta more agile than the average human and quite a bit more attentive than most people, I think).

That athletics leads me to another point. Say someone has Speed 10 and at least something like 10 Athletics, is it assumed they can make an Athletics check against 15 to increase up to 11 or is that a bit GM territory?

Pretty sure that's an explicit benefit of Athletics, yeah (but I think it only works for ground speed, not like Flight or Burrowing).

And one more which confuse me to no end... The Parts where it says *Insert ability* check when "specific skill doesn't apply". I don't think I will come across something that isn't covered by a skill like this suggests.
It seems to be here for Sta, Agl, Dex, Int, Awe & Pre.

I honestly have a fair bit of trouble coming up with a situation where you'd need the Ability rather than a skill. Most of them are super-niche. Could it happen? Sure. Does it make Abilities meaningfully more valuable? I wouldn't say so.

Thanks again Quellian-dyrae, What you have said has provided me with food for thought to make the character creation better in future.

Glad to help!

Scowling Dragon

2014-08-16, 09:05 PM

sideswipe

2014-08-16, 09:09 PM

yeh i always found when making M&M characters that i min max a lot. it applies here more than optimising. most of my stats remained at 0 with me usually taking -5 presence. and if i was talking just pumping skill ranks into it to gain a few more power points.

and without playing cuthulu cultist i found that unless i was purposely building a weak character (as in weaknesses and things i cannot beat being part of the build) most of my characters stood up to basicly anything. one of my favourites being a metamorpher in a Chinese medieval high magic setting. having essentially 6 characters in one with about 15 pp missing from each one was good :smallsmile:

and then i made a character no one would ever let me play. explosion man... innate immortality, big bang attack that had a secondary effect of the same big bang, then a version of the power that was reactionary to go off "whenever he is unaware". all his powers had side effect (power hits him too) and the power was incurable, effects insub, area blah blah everything hit and then hits again type thing. all his stats were -5 and all his defences were too. he had about 120 miles of flight a round, initiative of 31 and only thing apart from the 20 ranks (6 second) immortality and the big BIG powers was maxed perception and immunity to fort and will from the extra points from -5 to all.

idea being that he flew to you and exploded, it hits him too, knocking him incapacitated, this made him "unaware" triggering him to have the reactionary one go off. boom hits again. he is hit full force as incap and dies because of it, if not it secondary effects next round with him on "dieing" and he then dies. so thats 3 in 2 rounds. he then gets up from this the round later ready to do it all again.
edit note - if the GM allowed since the powers were separate, in the following round you get the secondary effect from both incarnations of the bang power ( the activated and the reactionary).

bad points.
if you ever sneak up on him as a practical joke or do something unexpected that he is not aware of... BANG!
if he ever goes to sleep.... BANG!
if almost anything happens..... BANG!
and good old innate immortality makes him suffer FOREVER!!
(he was heavily addicted to any drug, food, or narcotic to keep himself awake. as he is not immune to pain or sleeping so he hates his life and is franticly searching for anything that could possibly kill him permanently).

i really REALLY want to find someone who will let me play him.....

Quellian-dyrae

2014-08-16, 09:41 PM

Jeez well that sucked the fun right out of it.

if you make your characters more effective the GM will only counter by just making his own characters more effective.

Or screw that just take a character with Pure Variable. Do anything you want.

Seriously I thought the point was fun and creating a character. Not about some form of "Winning". Like D&D maybe, but in such a minimalist and free-flowing game like M&M Im just kinda baffled.

It's not about raw power, it's about focus, about making an interesting character. Your average (PL 10) character who wants to be effective in a level-appropriate combat is probably spending 40-50 points on defense, 10-20 on movement, and at least 25 on attack assuming they are purchasing attack bonus efficiently. With that other ~65 points, I could grab fifteen Advantages that give me interesting tactical options, a +10 in four skills that will define my non-combat capabilities, an additional Extra on my attack and five cool Alternate Powers that both give me tactical options in combat and clearly define how my main power set works, and fifteen points of miscellaneous cool stuff to define my character and give me more things to do, like Senses, Concealment, Create, or Regeneration.

It's definitely more powerful than spending half of those points on a scattershot of Abilities and a mediocre backup attack form, yes. But I also think it's going to wind up more fun, more interesting, and just resulting in a more detailed character overall. And I don't think it's any more power-gamey than a D&D fighter putting points into Dex rather than Cha and taking Power Attack and Combat Reflexes rather than Toughness and Weapon Focus.

Scowling Dragon

2014-08-16, 10:23 PM

It's not about raw power, it's about focus, about making an interesting character. Your average (PL 10) character who wants to be effective in a level-appropriate combat

Will depend entirely on the construction of the DM and the setting. In fact maxing out your defenses simply makes the DM max out offense. :smallannoyed:

If the DM wishes to make you obsolete in combat they can do so as they wish.

None of this crap is required whatsoever.

Quellian-dyrae

2014-08-16, 10:54 PM

Will depend entirely on the construction of the DM and the setting. In fact maxing out your defenses simply makes the DM max out offense. :smallannoyed:

I wouldn't say it's "making" the the GM do anything. PL limits are a highly sensible place to aim for, for PCs and NPCs. You are Level X, so try and make sure your stats hit X. I mean, of course, for any particular game, the GM may want players to aim below PL for whatever reason (maybe the genre involves a lot of powering up like DBZ or something). But in general, hitting your caps is...I mean, again, it's like in D&D and putting your highest score, your per-level increases, and whatever stat-boosting items you get towards your primary ability score. It just kinda makes sense. I think, anyway.

If the DM wishes to make you obsolete in combat they can do so as they wish.

I mean...yeah. But again, I'm not talking about becoming powerful enough to trounce whatever the GM throws at you. Yeah, obviously, that's Not Cool. I'm talking about getting the capabilities you want your character to have, and doing so efficiently enough that you also A) have points to spend fleshing them out and B) are going to see an impact from the things you do to flesh them out. Abilities...don't contribute well to that goal. Neither do backup weapons. That's pretty much the gist of what I'm saying.

None of this crap is required whatsoever.

Required? Certainly not. But I'm confident in stating that it's useful, and will probably make for a more fun game overall. Playstyles allowing, of course.

Scowling Dragon

2014-08-16, 11:06 PM

I wouldn't say it's "making" the the GM do anything. PL limits are a highly sensible place to aim for, for PCs and NPCs.

Because?.........

You are Level X, so try and make sure your stats hit X.

Why? In fact increasing the mandatory amount of points you have to spend LIMITS the points you can spend on fun stuff. So your hurting your ability to create the character you wanted to make in order to challenge a bunch of numbers.

That's pretty much the gist of what I'm saying.

No you where not. You where giving specific instructions as what to do based more on min maxing then fun. Im not saying that min maxing can't be fun. But its just a playstyle. I dislike it when people say "THE GAME MUST BE PLAYED LIKE THIS!". Which is what YOU where saying.

You still only see it as a competition. Which isn't bad. But its this "BETTER CHARACTERS ARE THOSE THAT CAN DO EVERYTHING TO THE MAX!" is a great insult to the characters that DON'T do everything to the max yet are MORE fun to play because their limitations forces improvisation and creative story telling and playing.

Its your thing fine.

Quellian-dyrae

2014-08-17, 02:23 AM

Because?.........

Why? In fact increasing the mandatory amount of points you have to spend LIMITS the points you can spend on fun stuff. So your hurting your ability to create the character you wanted to make in order to challenge a bunch of numbers.

Okay, this is a position I'm not going to defend. It makes sense to me. I find PL to be a good mechanic, based purely on personal opinion. I get the feeling that defending that opinion further is going to further the original misunderstanding here, which stems from...

No you where not. You where giving specific instructions as what to do based more on min maxing then fun. Im not saying that min maxing can't be fun. But its just a playstyle. I dislike it when people say "THE GAME MUST BE PLAYED LIKE THIS!". Which is what YOU where saying.

You still only see it as a competition. Which isn't bad. But its this "BETTER CHARACTERS ARE THOSE THAT CAN DO EVERYTHING TO THE MAX!" is a great insult to the characters that DON'T do everything to the max yet are MORE fun to play because their limitations forces improvisation and creative story telling and playing.

Its your thing fine.

...this. The advice I offered was strictly mechanical in nature, yes, agreed. This is because the question I was responding was a mechanical one. That was the context of the discussion, nothing more. I didn't say that the game must be played in any given way; I offered analysis and suggestions, no commands of any sort. I also did not say that character building is a competition, and frankly no, I do not see it as such. I'm not sure where that accusation comes from at all, actually. :smallconfused:

I also didn't say that being the best at everything is a yardstick for measuring a character or even a good thing to aspire to (and I do not feel that it is). I did, perhaps, come close to the general theme of the sentiment when I said "But I also think it's going to wind up more fun, more interesting, and just resulting in a more detailed character overall." But that's still quite a ways off from the opinion you're attributing to me. The point there was not, "If you don't build your character this way, you're a bad role player and your character is boring". It was more along the lines of, "Look, if you can accomplish your goal one way by spending 27 points, and a different way by spending 40 points, I'm gonna go ahead and bet that doing it the first way is going to wind up resulting in a more fun and interesting character." Which seems like a pretty safe bet, since it means you have thirteen more points to use to add fun and interesting things to your character :smalltongue:.

That line aside, I'm not sure what parts of my posts provoked that analysis of what I was saying. If you want to point them out I can clarify what I actually meant. Or you can just take me at my word that, no, that's not what I was talking about at all. That works too.

Scowling Dragon

2014-08-17, 02:35 AM

I guess it is my own personal bias. I just dislike the idea of playing the game in such a way when "Accomplish with your character" goes to maximizing their everything rather too maximizing them as representations of a character.

You are correct, it is better to just pick a skill instead of taking fighting. Toughness requires less investment then anything else.

But thats not the point. Its a very simple system to min max, but the idea just isn't how its used in my opinion.

Id rather have something thats not very useful but flavorful rather then just mechanical usage like that.

NooDM

2014-08-17, 08:56 PM

I had asked because I wanted to ensure some types of characters could be made so they fill their own role without feeling inadequate in scale. Because munchkins can easily break the system, sometimes without trying. Which ofc isn't the point, but something that can easily happen in this point form. Then again, the freedom from class is what intrigued me.

Anyhow another confusing bunch of oddities.

1. Can all forms of movement be used for the slam attack? Including odd ones like burrowing or teleporting?
2. When someone with an aura punches an enemy, is the damage done in one toughness check with both the close damage and aura added together? Or is it done in 2 separate checks for each?
3. (Slight build help) Say I wanted to make a speedster type that could use some of the energy built up from the friction of him moving around (like the heat and static electricity etc) to add to his melee. Would I need 1 Rank Variable Descriptor or 2 Rank to cover the variety needed?

Thanks again :smallbiggrin:

Quellian-dyrae

2014-08-18, 04:46 PM

1. Can all forms of movement be used for the slam attack? Including odd ones like burrowing or teleporting?

Mmm...I think so? Teleport's a bit iffy, I'm not sure to what degree it counts as an actual movement mode or just a move action that happens to place you elsewhere. Burrowing I can't see why not (figure like a Bulette suddenly bursting out of the ground to slam into someone...or just figure the Juggernaut).

2. When someone with an aura punches an enemy, is the damage done in one toughness check with both the close damage and aura added together? Or is it done in 2 separate checks for each?

Hrm...not sure. On the one hand, the more balanced way to do it would probably be adding them together (capped by PL of course). Flip side, the high cost of Energy Aura compared to, say, Linked makes me think that it wouldn't be completely out of bounds to resolve them as two separate checks, price-wise. That said, as a general rule, being able to hit the same target with the same Effect multiple times per round is very strong, and there are plenty of specific cases where it is explicitly disallowed (Linked, Healing with action improvements, sort of with Secondary Effect). So it might be a good idea to play that one conservatively.

3. (Slight build help) Say I wanted to make a speedster type that could use some of the energy built up from the friction of him moving around (like the heat and static electricity etc) to add to his melee. Would I need 1 Rank Variable Descriptor or 2 Rank to cover the variety needed?

I imagine rank 1. Variable Descriptor (Energy) would make sense as rank 2 I believe, so Variable Descriptor (Energy that can be generated by friction) seems like it would be rank 1.

Importantly, most of the above stuff is GM judgement call, so that's kinda how I'd call it, but if this if for building a PC, you should check with the actual GM.

Metahuman1

2014-12-26, 05:02 PM

So, I'm getting ready to unsubscribe form a dead game thread, and I'm saving this character build to use at some point down the line.

I think I may have made a mistake somewhere on the math, as it should be 150 points, but appears to only be 148. Could someone give it a look over and tell me if I'm just imagining things?

Abilities 30 + Defenses 20 + Powers 66 + Advantages 17 + Skills 14 = 148/150 Power Points

Abilities: points: 30
STR 5
STA 5
AGL 0
DEX 0
FGT 5
INT 0
AWE 0
PRE 0

Powers:

True Eyes: Senses 2 Immunity 5. Immunity Sensory Effects (Visual) Half Effect. Linked: Senses: Counters Concealment. 5 PP.

Armor Requipping: Magic: Array 25 PP +9 PP (Alternate Armors.) = 34pp.

Adamatine Armor: Protection 10. Impervious 15.

Black Wing Armor: Flight 5 (60mph) Protection 5 Enhanced dodge 5 Enhanced parry 5.

Flame Empress Armor: Enhanced Dodge 5 Enhanced Parry 5 Protection 5 Immunity: Fire.

Sea Empress Armor: Enhanced Dodge 5 Enhanced Parry 5 Protection 5 Immunity: Water.

Lighting Empress Armor: Enhanced Dodge 5 Enhanced Parry 5 Protection 5 Immunity: Electricity

Flight Armor: Protection 4. Enhanced Dodge 5. Flight 8 (1000mph.)

Heavens Wheel Armor: Flight 2 (8mph.). Enhanced Dodge 5. Enhanced Parry 5. Protection 5. Enhanced Sword Rain +2.

Robe of Yuan: Enhanced Dodge 10. Enhanced Parry 10. Immunity: Entrapment Effects.

Purgatory Armor: Damage Penetrating 10. Linked: Weaken (Toughness) 10 (Fort). Protection 5.

Giant Armor: Growth 8. Enhanced Dodge 4. Enhanced Parry 4.

Requip Weapons: Magic. Variable Descriptor. Array: 25 + 2 = 27pp.

Melee Weapon: Damage 5 (Str based.), Accurate 5 (+5), Variable Descriptors +2, Multy Attack (+10).

Sword Rain: Damage 8. Increased Range +1. Area (30ft Burst.). Precise.

Throwing: Damage 10. Increased Range +1. Accurate 5 (+5).

Skills: 33 ranks. 11 PP.

Athletics: 5 (+10)
Expertise: Magical Lore: 6
Expertise: Stock Trading: 4
Insight: 6
Intimidation: 10
Perception: 6
Technology: 2
Vehicles: 2

Advantages:

Accurate Attack
All Out Attack
Assessment
Benefit: Wealth: Rank 2 (Independently Wealthy.)
Defensive Attack
Power Attack
Evasion (1)
Improved Disarm
Improved Defense
Improved Smash
Improved Trip
Improved Initiative 3
Interpose
Move-By Action
Take Down 1
Weapon Break
Weapon Break
Equipment 1 (Cellphone: Smart Phone. Computer. Flashlight.)

Defenses: points 20
Toughness: + 5
Dodge: + 5
Fortitude: + 10
Parry: + 5
Will: + 10

Initiative: 12

Combat:
Close- +10 to hit. +10 to damage. Multy Attack. Variable Descriptors.

Ranged- +10 to hit. +10 to damage.

Sword Burst: Area. 8 damage. Precise.

Equipment: Smart Phone. Computer. Flashlight. 1 point remaining.