Differentiating between Arcane and Divine magic

[dragonjek]

This is something that has been nibbling around the edges of my mind for a while. In gameplay terms, aren't arcane and divine magic pretty much exactly the same? Except for qualifying for feats, PrCs, and similar things, there isn't really any difference between them outside of the fluff.

D&D already has several unique forms of 'magic', ranging from PHB spellcasting, to Incarnum, Shadowmagic, Truenaming, and Binding, but although I've poked a bit around some message boards, I haven't found any examples that make arcane and divine magic more unique in regards to one another.

Has anyone here ever made changes to how divine and arcane magic work in their campaigns? If you haven't yourself, could you perhaps give some ideas about what someone might do to further separate these two forms of magic? Or, if you already know someone who has done something similar, give a link to their work?

Thanks.

[NikitaDarkstar]

Um no? They're two different sets of magic that applies two different classes that uses similar/the same set of rules for how to cast them for simplicity sake. Why in Gygax name would you want to make the game more complicated and convoluted than it already is?

Or am I missing your point? It's possible, it's past 3am but it really did sound like you're asking for ways to give wizards, sorcerors and other arcane classes one set of rules and clerics and such another set of rules on how to determine amount of spells per day and how to cast them? (And there's already minor differences between classes obviously...)

[Amoren]

Well, a major difference is that Divine Spells aren't affected by armor penalties. :P

As for making them different... A DM for a campaign I played in seems to have made Anti-Magic Fields only exclude Arcane Magic (divine spells work just fine inside of them) - however this has only been seen from 'permanent' anti-magic fields likely put in place by the same Lich, so its unclear if this is a campaign wide rule or just a variant spell the Lich was using; but it sort of fits if you think about it.

Other things I've seen used is that magics are influenced in different ways in certain campaigns (I think Faerun and the Weave fits in here). Things like certain times of the year arcane or divine magic might wax or wane, growing stronger or weaker, and such. Something along the lines of a divine caster's spells growing stronger or weaker depending on the time of day or year might also work (for example, a Cleric of Pelor's spells would be slightly stronger during the day, weaker at night. While druids might get stronger in the summer season when life is plentiful but weaker in winter when its slumbering).

Edit: Essentially, think of ways for the fluff of divine magic to actually have a mechanical impact in your setting.

[Pilo]

Well, divine magic is supposed to come from the good gods and arcane magic from the Evil Ones.

But for some reasons, it's not clearly explained.

A proof of that is the type of the bonus given by some spells.

[Eldan]

Well, divine magic is supposed to come from the good gods and arcane magic from the Evil Ones.

But for some reasons, it's not clearly explained.

A proof of that is the type of the bonus given by some spells.

Uhm, not really, no.
After all, there's plenty of evil clerics. And good, even exalted, wizards.

[Feytalist]

Well, divine magic is supposed to come from the good gods and arcane magic from the Evil Ones.

But for some reasons, it's not clearly explained.

A proof of that is the type of the bonus given by some spells.

Say what now? Where'd you get that idea?


Mechanically, the only real difference between divine and arcane is the spell failure chance from armour, and divine magic needs a focus, whereas arcane doesn't. Arcane is also slightly more dependent on spell components. As for where it comes from, it changes from setting to setting, and doesn't really have mechanical differences. None that I can think of at the moment, anyway.

[Killer Angel]

Well, divine magic is supposed to come from the good gods and arcane magic from the Evil Ones.


:smallconfused:


Mechanically, the only real difference between divine and arcane is the spell failure chance from armour, and divine magic needs a focus, whereas arcane doesn't.

I've got another: scrolls.
To activate a scroll spell, the user must meet some requirements: appropriate ability score, spell on the class list AND

The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells.
So, a divine scroll with Protection from evil, cannot be used by a wizard.

[Feytalist]

I've got another: scrolls.

Ah. You're right, of course. I'd forgotten about that. And the same goes for wands, staves and other spell-trigger items as well.

[Alleran]

Well, divine magic is supposed to come from the good gods and arcane magic from the Evil Ones.

But for some reasons, it's not clearly explained.

A proof of that is the type of the bonus given by some spells.
Huh?

Divine magic is asking a greater power to do something for you (getting spells from an ideal or cause may be an exception, depending on what you think of the idea of "concepts" having a will of their own). Arcane magic is using the cheat codes for reality to effect the change yourself.

[Yora]

I've just written a huge paper on the difference between magic (arcane) and religion (divine), as we had a seminar about that last semester.

And it pretty much turns out that they are not distinct categories. One of the best we could find was that "magic" was used as a lable to tag on heathens and heretics. If you're on the right side, you're priest. If you're on the wrong side, you're a wizard.

Pretty much like the beholder-prophet in Baldur's Gate 2 says it.

Historically, there is no "mechanical" distinction between arcane magic and divine magic. It's more about terms of them versus us.

[gkathellar]

This is a problem I have had increasingly as the years have gone by, to the point that all of my ideas for homebrew settings at this point simply dispense with the difference entirely. I wish I could buy the whole "arcane magic as the cheat-codes to reality" angle, but it seems nonsensical when you take into account the existence of atheist clerics.

The difference was more accentuated in the earlier editions, where fewer spells were shared by Wizards and Clerics, but I really don't think edition nostalgia is much of an answer here.


Well, divine magic is supposed to come from the good gods and arcane magic from the Evil Ones.

Sayhoowutnow? I don't think that's ever been stated. I mean, theoretically in some iteration of Planescape magic comes from the Serpent and Asmodeus may or may not be an avatar of the Serpent, but that's really about as close as I can get to this.

[gkathellar]

I've just written a huge paper on the difference between magic (arcane) and religion (divine), as we had a seminar about that last semester.

And it pretty much turns out that they are not distinct categories. One of the best we could find was that "magic" was used as a lable to tag on heathens and heretics. If you're on the right side, you're priest. If you're on the wrong side, you're a wizard.

Pretty much like the beholder-prophet in Baldur's Gate 2 says it.

Historically, there is no "mechanical" distinction between arcane magic and divine magic. It's more about terms of them versus us.

Yora's got it right.

Emile Durkheim, and I paraphrase, basically said that the difference between magic and religion is that a magician is solitary and a priest is social.

[Yora]

Oh, someone who knows his stuff?! :smallbiggrin:

I actually follow Durkheims interpretation, that a priest is performing a permanent service for a community, while a wizard is a solitary individual who is only consulted when you want him to perform a specific service to solve a single problem.

However, I think that this doesn't help at all in this case, as divine spellcasters are not limited to the role of community priest and therefore could be regarded as practicing magic by Durkheims definition. That definition is purely social, while the difference between arcane and divine magic is a mechanical one.

[Jack_Simth]

This is something that has been nibbling around the edges of my mind for a while. In gameplay terms, aren't arcane and divine magic pretty much exactly the same? Except for qualifying for feats, PrCs, and similar things, there isn't really any difference between them outside of the fluff.There are a number of differences.
Divine casters are not affected by Arcane Spell Failure; Arcane casters are.
Divine casters can't cast spells of opposed alignments; Arcane casters can.
Divine casters don't need to rest to prepare spells; Arcane casters do.
Certain spells have different requirements for Arcane and Divine casters (M/DF or F/DF spells, mostly, but also funny ones like Scrying).

[Zombimode]

Yora: out of interest, since this is not all that clear to me from just the above postings: do you come from a cultural studies (Kulturwissenschaft) or literature studies (Literaturwissenschaft/Germanistik) view?

[Yora]

Actually both. My main subject was Kulturwissenschaft and my secondary Germanistik. Germanistik was mostly Intercultural Communication, but we also included a lot about storytelling and had a couple of lecturers in Kulturwissenschaft who were from Medienwissenschaften and Literaturwissenschaft.

That's how you end up with a specialization in Mythology and Spirituality in Modern Entertainment. :smallamused:

[gkathellar]

Oh, someone who knows his stuff?! :smallbiggrin:

Just enough to get in trouble.


I actually follow Durkheims interpretation, that a priest is performing a permanent service for a community, while a wizard is a solitary individual who is only consulted when you want him to perform a specific service to solve a single problem.

I generally agree. Although bear in mind that in various societies, the wizard is all-important specifically because he's a solitary individual. Diviners and cunning men/wise woman and magicians and such are often social outcasts —*but in an odd way, people trust them because of that. You can always rely on the mad, resentful outsider to be a mad, resentful outsider.


However, I think that this doesn't help at all in this case, as divine spellcasters are not limited to the role of community priest and therefore could be regarded as practicing magic by Durkheims definition. That definition is purely social, while the difference between arcane and divine magic is a mechanical one.

Absolutely. Going by archetypal images, druids in particular pose a problem for that interpretation. They're not necessarily asocial, but they are asocial from non-druids and non-druidic concerns.

I think in general the most cohesive image we have of the difference between wizard and cleric does play into the idea of social vs. antisocial, though — it's represented in the spells available to each and their expected party roles, and has been since the days of 0E. Clerics have always been designed around things like healing and buffing, which directly support the party, and their offensive spells usually have a "punishment" spin to them. Wizards, on the other hand, draw their power from an unknown or unknowable source, and use it to almost explicitly break the rules of the universe. Their magic is often very aggressive in nature, and does less to help their allies than it does to hurt their enemies.

3E, for all it did to expand character concepts and mechanical versatility of classes, really blurred those lines quite a bit — not that I'm complaining, mind you. I think by contrast 4E does an excellent job of reinstating them, one of the very few thematic things that edition does well.

[Yora]

I think in earlier edition these concepts were followed much more closely. With the Wizard and Priest from 1st Edition, there is really no problem at all, and the druid and bard also didn't make things complicated.

I think the big confusion really started with 3rd Edition, or rather with late 3rd Edition when the rules creep had been getting some steam. Dozens of writers have been adding new classes and spells, I assume without giving much thought to the difference between arcane and divine magic, and certainly without considering the work of other writers. As a result, you end up with a huge amount of magic that no longer shows any clear destinction between priests and wizards.

[Mockingbird]

Arcane spells are spells you possess through your own abilities. Divine spells are given to you by your deity and he/she can take the powers back at any time.

[ThiefInTheNight]

I've considered adapting Binders for divine magic, and Shadowcasters for arcane magic, just to make both a "little different". Vestiges become "saints" or "spirits" or whatever; mysteries become spells.

[grarrrg]

This is actually a super easy question, I don't know how it managed to spiral out of control the way it has.

If the guy casting the spell looks like this http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110109175551/finalfantasy/images/a/a9/Blackmage-ff1-msx.png then it is an Arcane spell.

If the guy casting the spell looks like this http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110109223050/finalfantasy/images/d/db/Whitemage-ff1-msx.png then it is a Divine spell.

[Snowbluff]

Well, divine magic is supposed to come from the good gods and arcane magic from the Evil Ones.

But for some reasons, it's not clearly explained.

A proof of that is the type of the bonus given by some spells.

Boccob, God o' Magic, is neutral.

You can desecrate away divine casters, but not arcane ones!

[gkathellar]

I've considered adapting Binders for divine magic, and Shadowcasters for arcane magic, just to make both a "little different". Vestiges become "saints" or "spirits" or whatever; mysteries become spells.

Incarnum for Divine and Psionics for Arcane is a pretty common variation on this approach.

In the homebrew setting I'm working on, I use psionics as a partial replacement for divine magic (the mythology has some pretty extensive Hindu/Buddhist influences). Some of the gods are Vancian casters and taught mortals a few Vancian traditions which they have no control over, but all of the Greater Deities are powerful psychics.

[Dr.Epic]

Divine: from the gods or nature

Arcane: taught or self taught and not coming from a source such as a deity or nature

They seem pretty different to me.

[navar100]

While there is some overlap is spell effects essentials in addition to the few spells on both lists, there are significant differences.

Arcane spells tend to be flashy. If it's damage, it's more damage than a divine spell of the same level or even higher level. If it's save or suck, it's earlier level and more of them than divine spells. Divine spells eventually get save or die, but most apply just a number penalty than a condition.

Divine spells, aside from the obvious healing, tend to be about plus and minus numbers. Arcane buffs that don't overlap with divine give you a direct benefit of doing something you couldn't normally do. Divine buffs give you a + number to something with few cases of being able to do something you couldn't normally do. Arcane debuffs, while a few are - number penalties, go back to save or suck. Divine debuffs are more likely to give - number penalties.

Arcane and Divine divination spells tend to be equal in power even though their effects and means are different.

This is of course speaking in general terms. Particular spells can break the mold.

[Yora]

Druid spells seem to be all about evocation and transmutation. I think that's quite flashy, or at least visually impressive.

[gkathellar]

While there is some overlap is spell effects essentials in addition to the few spells on both lists, there are significant differences.

Arcane spells tend to be flashy. If it's damage, it's more damage than a divine spell of the same level or even higher level. If it's save or suck, it's earlier level and more of them than divine spells. Divine spells eventually get save or die, but most apply just a number penalty than a condition.

Divine spells, aside from the obvious healing, tend to be about plus and minus numbers. Arcane buffs that don't overlap with divine give you a direct benefit of doing something you couldn't normally do. Divine buffs give you a + number to something with few cases of being able to do something you couldn't normally do. Arcane debuffs, while a few are - number penalties, go back to save or suck. Divine debuffs are more likely to give - number penalties.

Arcane and Divine divination spells tend to be equal in power even though their effects and means are different.

This is of course speaking in general terms. Particular spells can break the mold.

Domains kind of destroy this entire interpretation, though, as do a lot of the other modular, universal mechanics introduced in 3E. This is sort of what I think the OP is getting at — so much of the time, arcane and divine magic are functionally interchangeable because they get so much of each others' schtick so easily.

[Ravens_cry]

In Divine magic, you are a vessel filled. In Arcane, you are a vessel emptied.

[petermcleod117]

Generally speaking, Arcane and Divine magic are mechanically similar, and perhaps even use the same type of energy, but have different sources. Divine magic typically has some sort of central battery powering it. Arcane magic, on the other hand, is harvested. In athas, arcane magic is pulled from the soil and the vegetation, killing it. In toril, it is also drawn from the soil and vegetation, but Mystra makes sure that the energy is drawn from a large section of the land to avoid needless destruction, and the energy is then fed back into the land. In eberron, the various dragonshards produce an energy field that can be drawn on for power. ECT.

I am crafting a setting that makes the distinction much more clear, however. In my setting, divine magic comes from a single, benevolent yet distant entity which crafted the world. He is worshiped under many names by many races (in some cases by people who completely misunderstand his nature, as with the Witch Clans whose White Witches believe he is the Moon God, because they are not aware that he grants the sun domain as well). Divine Magic is his gift, or elsewise a gift accidentally stolen by the Priests of Marduk, who were trained as Ur-Priests and worship an entirely false pantheon of gods. Arcane magic, on the other hand, comes from demonic entities. Each spell involves a ritual to trick, control, trap, channel, command, or otherwise manipulate demons.
This produces the following mechanical changes:
Divine Magic involves the will of the god and the understanding of it's wielders. Thus, different worshipers of him believe different things and manifest his powers in different ways. White Witches find their power enhanced by the full moon because they believe their god is more present during the full moon (he's not, but their belief enhances his ability to give them power, granting them a +2 on their caster level on the full moon, a -1 on the new moon, and -2 on a complete lunar eclipse). White Witches also use their right eye as the divine focus for their spells, closing their left. A white witch can cast curses, divination spells, and spells requiring a divine focus with her right eye alone, meaning she doesn't need any material, somatic, or verbal components. They also get dark-vision with there right eye if they close their left (they can only move at half speed while doing this). They, however, cannot wear armor. White witches have an order of chaotic good paladins (unearthed arcana) called moonguard devoted to them (all male, as the females actually become the witches), which possess all the benefits and drawbacks of being a White Witch, lack a paladin's mount but can wear armor. Moonguard and White Witches often enhance their spells using a potent herb called Silverweed, which can add +3 to the caster level of their "eye spells" and doubles the range of their darkvision. Elven Druids of the Forest Lord can channel their god through their bodies. Instead of being able to wild shape into an elemental, they gain the ability to transform into a Master of the Hunt (i have yet to write up stats). They also sing all their spells, so instead of an animal companion they gain the bardic music ability at first level. Their is an associated order of Rangers called Hoaray Hunters devoted to them, which have their animal companion replaced with a paladin's mount (always a horse, though can be "upgraded" as normal to any horse-like creature of good alignment), and when riding their mount they get a +2 to their caster level. In place of their first favored enemy gain bardic music and the ability to sing their spells. Certain areas (faerie groves, stone circles, ect) are charged with the power of creation. Elven druids and rangers can get up to a +3 to their caster level in such areas, and elves often build their cities directly on those areas. Dwarven priests of the Earth Father are all artificers who gain two cleric domains with spells and powers in place of the normal homonculous, and they gain a +1 to their caster level whenever on solid ground, +2 while inside the earth, and cannot cast spells or do infusions while over water or in the air. Like elven druids, they can benefit from potent magics in the land, adding up to +3 to their caster level in such areas. The Northmen call on the spirits of the land, who act as proxies for them to the one god. They are identical to Spirit Shamans. The Clerics of Anu in Ur believe their god is the king of the gods (ironically, he might as well be, given the rest of his pantheon doesn't actually exist). Though they cannot wear armor, they automatically get the spell "suggestion" as a spell-like ability usable once per day, as a cleric of their level. Whenever they pray for their spells, they are subjected to a Sanctuary spell as cast by a cleric of their level. The High Priest of Anu, of which there can only be one (and right now he has been exiled to the west as a heretic) also gains the benefit of a commune spell whenever he prays for spells. The Priests of Anu have an order of lawful good paladins devoted to them called the Knights Templar (which have been exhiled to the west by the Temple of Marduk, which views their presence as an usurpation of their authority). They also get the sanctuary ability while they pray for their spells. Knights Templar do not get a paladin's mount, but rather their smite damage is considered sacred damage (not subject to damage reduction or energy resistance) at the level they would normally get a mount. Priests of Anu and Knights Templar often make good use of their sanctuary ability, having some among them as devoted healers who often just plop down in the middle of a battle when they run out of spells, recharging their reserve without fear of being killed, and then get back up and start healing people again. Priests of Anu and Knights Templar also have access to a special book of scripture called the words of Anu, which consists of every major teaching of every High Priest of Anu all the way back to the founding of the faith. This book is considered the divine focus of all their spells. Further, by chanting the passages of the book, Priests of Anu can raise their effective caster level for the purpose of casting a divine focus spell by one for every round they continue chanting before casting, for a maximum of +5. Only the Heretic Priests of the West and the Knight's Templar can use this book, as it has been outlawed in the east by the temple of the false god Ba'al Marduk. Instead, Priests of Anu in the east use a simple eye-shaped sigil as a divine focus. All of these have also learned to work together to weave their spells, forming covens of 3, 5, 7, 9, and 12 members, making the combined caster level of the coven equal to the highest caster level in the coven +1 for each level of the coven (3 casters being level 1, and 12 casters being level 5). Each level of the coven also lets the casters add an extra metamagic feat to the spell without increasing the legnth of the spell, even if none of them have the feat, as long as at least one of them meet the prerequisites for the feat or they have already enhanced the spell with a feat that fits the prerequisite. Also, if any one of them possesses a metamagic feat that the others don't have, the entire group is considered to possess it for the purpose of the casting.
Priests of Marduk (and the other gods of Anu's false pantheon) have different ways of enhancing their power which I outlined in another post.
Arcane magic involves dark ritual because that's what it takes to force spirits to do your will. As such, all arcane spell casters are wizards or others that study spells. None are sorcerers. The exact methods very from school to school. To cast an evokation, abjuration, illusion, conjuration, transmutation, or necromacy spell, one must draw one's own blood with a ceremonial knife, dealing 1d4 nonlethal damage per spell level. The caster level of the spell can be enhanced by dealing an additional d4 per caster level you want to add to the spell. Evokation spells require a bit of whatever element is used in the spell (if any), and necromacy requires humanoid teeth or similar sized bone fragments of humanoids to be cast towards the bodies of the dead the caster wishes to raise, one per body. Divination spells require much preparation, as they all use humanoid collar bones etched with runes that represent specific answers to questions (works as a scribe scroll feat). The bone is then heated up in a fire until it cracks (takes 1d4 rounds), and then must be removed and read (full round action). However, all divination spells are considered cast at 3 levels higher than normal. If the divination spell is one used for finding someone, the process instead requires that the caster possess something belonging to the one to be found (+0 to caster level if it is an object the subject possessed, +1 if it was an article of clothing, +2 if it is blood or hair, +3 if it is an actual body part). Telephathy and Clairvoyance related spells are unaffected. Summoning spells require a human sacrifice which has 1HD per level of the spell, plus an additional HD for each degree the caster wished to enhance the spell. Only evil outsiders, fey, and elementals may be summoned by arcane magic. For this purpose, children are considered twice their actual hit die. Enchantment spells require a small replica of the target (+1 to caster level if the doll has a bit of the target's clothing woven into it, and +2 if it has a bit of hair or blood from the target) which the caster must manipulate, and thus the enchanter must craft a different doll for each victim. However, enchantment spells cast this way are harder to resist, increasing any DCs by 5.
Familiars gained by arcane casters are always Quasits, though they can possess normal animals (and often do, providing the illusion that familiars are animal companions). Instead of normal familiar advancement (ie, more intelligence and other things over time), the familiar can be enhanced and transformed into more powerful tannar'ri as it's CR increases, requiring a human sacrifice of one HD per HD of the new demon. Demons can possess weapons or people as per the normal rules in the Eberron campaign setting.
Arcane spellcasting is a thoroughly evil source of power, though not all of it's practitioners are aware of this. Some casters have found ways to get around the evil implications of their rights by the practice of grave robbing.

[Jack_McSnatch]

Everyone saying arcane magic is evil should reread book of exhalted deeds for good spells only wizards can prepare, and complete arcane.

Mechanically, there's little difference. Spell failure chance in armor and completely different spell lists. And classes. And related skills.

Fluffwise, arcane magic is the power within. It's the caster's personal magic powering the spell.

Divine magic is a power that comes from an outside source. A god, an ideal, or nature itself are fueling your spells.

Edit: And magic items.

[Jowgen]

Rule-wise, I find that one of the more interesting differences is that by the Divine Denial feat, which allows one to receive saving throws against spells that don't allow them, but only if they're divine.

My own personal theory on their in-game metaphysical difference is as follows:

Magic is a single primal force within the universe, like Gravity. Some creatures have an inherent connection to this primal force, allowing them to naturally manipulate it by means of SLAs or SUs (the main difference being how much willfull effort it takes). I consider this the most pure form of magic.

In ages past, Dragons and other creatures with this connection to universal magic discovered that there were ways, beyond their inherent ability, through which magic could be manipulated (Fey fall in the same category, explaining why the MotP Feywild benefits arcane casters only). Specifically, they found that certain physical movements, sounds, thoughts and so on "tugged" as the fabric of magic, and if they were combined in the right way, effects could be produced. This was the birth of arcane magic.

Side note: not all arcane magic users are created equal. Dragons, by virtue of their genetic memory, now naturally come to master it over time, and can access magic spells beyond other races, while having to bother with fewer components. This is racial arcane magic. Sorcerers, who carry traces of dragon blood, can tap into this arcane genetic memory through training and effort, and mimic what they gleam. This is spontaneous arcane magic. Lastly, Wizards and other prepared arcane casters are in a way the truly old-school faction. They aim to master magic by walking the same path as the original creators of arcane practice, learning its rules and mastering new ways to employ them to their advantage. Interestingly, Spellhoarding dragons seem to represent a full circle type deal, where a Dragon returns to doing things the way the original Dragon creators of arcane practice discovered and used magic (hence explaining their ability to undgergo the physical change required to become spellhoarding).

Lastly, there is divine magic; which manipulates the same universal magical force, but does so through a completely different method belief. Worship, faith and belief in its different forms are a tangible power, which notably feeds the Deities. Some divine casters offer their belief to deities or demons with access to divine power, and in exchange those entities bestow upon them the ability to shape magic directly (plus instructions on the practice of how) without the need to rely on the laws inherenent in the universal force of magic that Arcane casters "exploit". Other divine casters accomplish the same thing by gifting their belief to cosmic principles, primal forces of unknown sentience, which (by happenstance or cosmic design) results in them drawing from those forces the same direct-magic-manipulation ability that the deities gift their faithful (i.e. divine casting).

Side-Note: Again, not all divine casters are born equal. Beyond the distinction beyond whom or what they serve, some races have their devotion built into them (e.g. Devas, Nymphs). These are the ones with racial divine casting. Whether it is by design or happenstance, these creatures have no choice but to worship / expend their belief, and in return receive the ability to cast divine spells. As this ability is inherenet to their being, they generally have to make less of an effort to use their divine magic.

So in summary of this head-canon of mine:
- The deities created races with the ability to directly manipulate the fabric of magic: SLAs/SUs
- Using their SLAs/SUs as a base, these races came to understand the laws of magic and created methods by which thery could manipulate the fabric of magic in other ways: Arcane Magic
- Other races discovered that by expending/gifting/paying-with their power of belief, they could gain the ability to directly manipulate the fabric of magic without understanding and method.

In a way, Arcane and Divine magic represent two different attitudes towards the divine/cosmic: the will to understand and master as opposed to the desire to serve and revere. One is a magic of domination, the other is a magic of subservience; while SLAs/SUs simply stand in the center and "are".


Note: this ended up being way longer than I expected, sorry if it seems rambly.

[Genth]

What links the two however is that they both have necromancy spells!

[EldritchWeaver]

Another way to get distinctive sets of divine and arcane magic might be to use Spheres of Power. The default of SoP does actually away with the distinction, but there are rules built-in to allow greater differentiation again (namely drawbacks like Verbal Casting). In addition, depending on being an arcane or divine caster, access to spheres might be different (only divine gets Life, only arcane gets Death) or for shared spheres the advanced talents (which represent the campaign changing effects) can be only available to only one of them, representing differing power levels in certain areas. Or certain talents are accessible only to certain classes (seers only can use Divine talents from divination).

[petermcleod117]

Everyone saying arcane magic is evil should reread book of exhalted deeds for good spells only wizards can prepare, and complete arcane.

Mechanically, there's little difference. Spell failure chance in armor and completely different spell lists. And classes. And related skills.

Fluffwise, arcane magic is the power within. It's the caster's personal magic powering the spell.

Divine magic is a power that comes from an outside source. A god, an ideal, or nature itself are fueling your spells.

Edit: And magic items.

I am not disagreeing with that statement at all. In fact, there are some settings where divine magic is considered exclusively evil, and arcane magic is the only good/neutral sort of magic (here's looking at you, Midnight campaign setting).

[Crake]

Generally speaking, Arcane and Divine magic are mechanically similar, and perhaps even use the same type of energy, but have different sources. Divine magic typically has some sort of central battery powering it. Arcane magic, on the other hand, is harvested. In athas, arcane magic is pulled from the soil and the vegetation, killing it. In toril, it is also drawn from the soil and vegetation, but Mystra makes sure that the energy is drawn from a large section of the land to avoid needless destruction, and the energy is then fed back into the land. In eberron, the various dragonshards produce an energy field that can be drawn on for power. ECT.

I am crafting a setting that makes the distinction much more clear, however. In my setting, divine magic comes from a single, benevolent yet distant entity which crafted the world. He is worshiped under many names by many races (in some cases by people who completely misunderstand his nature, as with the Witch Clans whose White Witches believe he is the Moon God, because they are not aware that he grants the sun domain as well). Divine Magic is his gift, or elsewise a gift accidentally stolen by the Priests of Marduk, who were trained as Ur-Priests and worship an entirely false pantheon of gods. Arcane magic, on the other hand, comes from demonic entities. Each spell involves a ritual to trick, control, trap, channel, command, or otherwise manipulate demons.
This produces the following mechanical changes:
Divine Magic involves the will of the god and the understanding of it's wielders. Thus, different worshipers of him believe different things and manifest his powers in different ways. White Witches find their power enhanced by the full moon because they believe their god is more present during the full moon (he's not, but their belief enhances his ability to give them power, granting them a +2 on their caster level on the full moon, a -1 on the new moon, and -2 on a complete lunar eclipse). White Witches also use their right eye as the divine focus for their spells, closing their left. Elven Druids of the Forest Lord can channel their god through their bodies. Instead of being able to wild shape into an elemental, they gain the ability to transform into a Master of the Hunt (i have yet to write up stats). They also sing all their spells, so instead of an animal companion they gain the bardic music ability at first level. Dwarven priests of the Earth Father are all artificers who gain two cleric domains with spells and powers in place of the normal homonculous, and they gain a +1 to their caster level whenever on solid ground, +2 while inside the earth, and cannot cast spells or do infusions while over water or in the air. The Northmen call on the spirits of the land, who act as proxies for them to the one god. They are identical to Spirit Shamans. The Clerics of Anu in Ur believe their god is the king of the gods, and so they are continually subject to a Sanctuary spell as cast by a cleric of their level: however, they possess no proficiency with any weapons, shields, or armor at the start. All of these have also learned to work together to weave their spells, forming covens of 3, 5, 7, 9, and 12 members, making the combined caster level of the coven equal to the highest caster level in the coven +1 for each level of the coven (3 casters being level 1, and 12 casters being level 5). Each level of the coven also lets the casters add an extra metamagic feat to the spell without increasing the legnth of the spell, even if none of them have the feat, as long as at least one of them meet the prerequisites for the feat or they have already enhanced the spell with a feat that fits the prerequisite. Also, if any one of them possesses a metamagic feat that the others don't have, the entire group is considered to possess it for the purpose of the casting.
Priests of Marduk (and the other gods of Anu's false pantheon) have different ways of enhancing their power which I outlined in another post.
Arcane magic involves dark ritual because that's what it takes to force spirits to do your will. As such, all arcane spell casters are wizards or others that study spells. None are sorcerers. The exact methods very from school to school. To cast an evokation, illusion, conjuration, transmutation, or necromacy spell, one must draw one's own blood with a ceremonial knife, dealing 1d4 nonlethal damage per spell level. The caster level of the spell can be enhanced by dealing an additional d4 per caster level you want to add to the spell. Evokation spells require a bit of whatever element is used in the spell (if any), and necromacy requires humanoid teeth or similar sized bone fragments of humanoids to be cast towards the bodies of the dead the caster wishes to raise, one per body. Divination spells require much preparation, as they all use humanoid collar bones etched with runes that represent specific answers to questions (works as a scribe scroll feat). The bone is then heated up in a fire until it cracks (takes 1d4 rounds), and then must be removed and read (full round action). However, all divination spells are considered cast at 3 levels higher than normal. If the divination spell is one used for finding someone, the process instead requires that the caster possess something belonging to the one to be found (+0 to caster level if it is an object the subject possessed, +1 if it was an article of clothing, +2 if it is blood or hair, +3 if it is an actual body part). Telephathy and Clairvoyance related spells are unaffected. Summoning spells require a human sacrifice which has 1HD per level of the spell, plus an additional HD for each degree the caster wished to enhance the spell. Only evil outsiders, fey, and elementals may be summoned by arcane magic. For this purpose, children are considered twice their actual hit die. Enchantment spells require a small replica of the target (+1 to caster level if the doll has a bit of the target's clothing woven into it, and +2 if it has a bit of hair or blood from the target) which the caster must manipulate, and thus the enchanter must craft a different doll for each victim. However, enchantment spells cast this way are harder to resist, increasing any DCs by 5.
Arcane spellcasting is a thoroughly evil source of power, though not all of it's practitioners are aware of this. Some casters have found ways to get around the evil implications of their rights by the practice of grave robbing.

I hope you realise that you just wall of texted a dead thread. That's some mighty intense thread necro there.

[Erit]

I hope you realise that you just wall of texted a dead thread. That's some mighty intense thread necro there.

He did it with another one, too. It's either humblebragging over the setting he wrote up specifically to violate Grod's Law, or he trying to sneakily recruit people.

That or he's ignorant, but Hanlon's Razor and I don't exactly see eye-to-eye.

[flappeercraft]

Everyone saying arcane magic is evil should reread book of exhalted deeds for good spells only wizards can prepare, and complete arcane.

Mechanically, there's little difference. Spell failure chance in armor and completely different spell lists. And classes. And related skills.

Fluffwise, arcane magic is the power within. It's the caster's personal magic powering the spell.

Divine magic is a power that comes from an outside source. A god, an ideal, or nature itself are fueling your spells.

Edit: And magic items.

Apparently someone just cast Raise dead on the thread

[Jack_McSnatch]

Apparently someone just cast Raise dead on the thread

More like delay death.

[petermcleod117]

He did it with another one, too. It's either humblebragging over the setting he wrote up specifically to violate Grod's Law, or he trying to sneakily recruit people.

That or he's ignorant, but Hanlon's Razor and I don't exactly see eye-to-eye.

Just ignorant. sorry. I'm new to the forums

[LudicSavant]

In gameplay terms, aren't arcane and divine magic pretty much exactly the same? For the most part.


Has anyone here ever made changes to how divine and arcane magic work in their campaigns?
Yes. One of the smaller ones was that I removed the Spellcraft skill, and rolled its functions into Knowledge. Knowledge: Arcana would identify arcane spells, Knowledge: Religion would identify divine spells. One could identify spells from the other at a penalty (incidentally, the same penalty for identifying "exotic magic" in Secrets of Xen'drik). This also applied to Martial Lore (e.g. martial adepts could identify spells, at a penalty. After all, part of any good study of war is knowing your enemy. What sort of veteran soldier can't recognize the telltale signs of a fireball being cast?).