becoming the captain of the Crimson Ship

[Kol Korran]

Ariel, Guy, Tomer and Alon- don't continue reading please!

i have a meeting soon, and there is a part of an... "encounter" i'm unsatisfied with, and would like some help in. The main thing is that the party will summon the Crimson Ship (from Explorer's guide to Eberron, but altered. you don't need to know it). the ship is themed on blood and souls with only it's special captain to guide it. it's a means of transportation to practically ANYWHERE but it demands a special price. the party might refuse to pay, and battle the captain of the ship (a Yugoloth Ulrtaloth, MM3, basically a powerful fiend), and the battle may be tough, but winnable.

but the the ship is without a captain... and it needs guidance. but i want the ship to try and "make" herself a new captain, by trying to transform whomever takes the helm.

my idea is that it takes several attempts to guide the ship to it's destination (the details for that are unimportant for this thread) but with each attempt the Crimson ship tries to exert it's influence, it's curse, and make a new captain. the "behind the scenes" idea is that by the end of the voyage, whether the ship has gained a captain or not, the amount of transformation the pilot went through is "the price" the ship takes...

(Edit: a new idea has formed, scroll down to the seventh post (from me) which begins with "read from here" to view it)

which is where i'm stuck- how do i portray this? what mechanics? i thought perhaps will and fort (and perhaps reflex? trying to catch the out-driven soul?) in rotation, with each failure garnering a small change towards the destination. but what are these changes? how to flavor them?

(Edit to clarify: the "transformation" is supposed to be towards a similar form as the former captain- basically a powerful fiend. it's not just physical, perhaps mainly not physical, but rather more mental and spiritual- their essence. though some physical changes are appropriate as well.)

about the changes: they need to be gradual, they may offer some benefit, but ion the whole should be unwanted. and most importantly- flavorful...
the changes should be permanent, not trivial, but not such as to make the player want to throw away his/ her character because it's "way too screwed up" now.

that said, i don't like the "roll save" idea that much, i'd prefer some sort of better, more interesting, more unique mechanic, if possible.

so this is a bit of a weird request, but i hope you playgrounders can help me. thanks! :smallsmile:
Kol.

[FearlessGnome]

but i want the ship to try and "make" herself a new captain, by trying to transform whomever takes the helm.
The playground approves.

my idea is that it takes several attempts to guide the ship to it's destination (the details for that are unimportant for this thread) but with each attempt the Crimson ship tries to exert it's influence, it's curse, and make a new captain. the "behind the scenes" idea is that by the end of the voyage, whether the ship has gained a captain or not, the amount of transformation the pilot went through is "the price" the ship takes...

which is where i'm stuck- how do i portray this? what mechanics? i thought perhaps will and fort (and perhaps reflex? trying to catch the out-driven soul?) in rotation, with each failure garnering a small change towards the destination. but what are these changes? how to flavor them?

about the changes: they need to be gradual, they may offer some benefit, but ion the whole should be unwanted. and most importantly- flavorful...
the changes should be permanent, not trivial, but not such as to make the player want to throw away his/ her character because it's "way too screwed up" now.

that said, i don't like the "roll save" idea that much, i'd prefer some sort of better, more interesting, more unique mechanic, if possible.

so this is a bit of a weird request, but i hope you playgrounders can help me. thanks! :smallsmile:
Kol.

I suggest having a look at the "drift" feature of the Geomancer class (Complete Divine/Masters of the Wild). You'd have to make up new drifts (of appropriate flavor), but the ones used by the class should offer some inspiration. They provide flavorful physical changes, but mechanically they vary from useless to mildly beneficial, especially if the players get limited choice as to what changes they go through. You could have them Will/Fort save to see how quickly/severely they change, but still changing them a little on a successful save. This would encourage them to maybe not let one character do all of the steering, lest the changes grow severe enough to impact character concepts.

[DoctorGlock]

as stated above, geomancer works for creating an inhuman creature theme, you'd get something like the crew in the second pirates movie

heroes of horror also has a taint mechanic, including fun little physical changes like melting innards, gauntness, deathly pallor and the like

you want the changes based off the choices made to the destination? This is where things get tough, don't bother with navigation checks or saves, give thematic options as (i don't know about the ship, but you can have it enter a realm somewhere between the physical and the plane of madness) they confront moral choices and manifestations of their souls and inner darkness. Instead of "Dc 25, you keep her on track" its "you can no longer see the horizon in any direction and darkness gathers around the ship, echoing screams fill the air and through the mists you see ghostly faces (player meets someone from past, forced to undergo some form of decision/trial regarding figure, god options include negotiation and whatnot, bad include cutting down the inconvenience, this results in the buildup of a taint/depravity score and physical changes/drift) and so on. they can pilot the ship through the mists and chaos to different events and how they do it determines which taints and drifts they acquire. the voyage becomes more metaphorical than literal. then you have no saves to deal with, the ship will automatically attempt to guide them to events and memories that will provoke the tainted options, resulting in a fall, which is what it seems you are going for. The ship takes its price from their own sins. during the voyage it exists partially in the chaos/dreaming world and so the players can have their forms altered with no consequence... but for the chosen captain, the changes do not go away at the end, no save, no checks,

so, benefits but still bizzare?
drift
taint (see what it does to casting)
grafts
aberrant feats
willing deformity feats

[Kol Korran]

The playground approves.

I suggest having a look at the "drift" feature of the Geomancer class (Complete Divine/Masters of the Wild). You'd have to make up new drifts (of appropriate flavor), but the ones used by the class should offer some inspiration. They provide flavorful physical changes, but mechanically they vary from useless to mildly beneficial, especially if the players get limited choice as to what changes they go through. You could have them Will/Fort save to see how quickly/severely they change, but still changing them a little on a successful save. This would encourage them to maybe not let one character do all of the steering, lest the changes grow severe enough to impact character concepts.

hhmmmm.. ok, i checked the drifts. interesting, but check out the bolded clarification in the OP. a guideline at least.

as to let a few people take the helm... i think no- the idea is that there is a real danger for the ship to create a new captain, that one pays the price for them all (and for not paying the original price). if they can switch, the ship will have little chance of actually getting a captain.

my idea is once a person decides to play pilot, the helm latches strongly unto them, perhaps inserting sharp powerful splinters into heir blood stream, joining ship and would-be-captain. tearing the person off immediately causes massive damage, saving for death (the players will have plenty of clues in advance).

since the effects hinder the pilot, they (well most of them) will be temporary, lasting for one adventure. then some minor affects shall remain, and the player will get some benefit (a special feat or something) to mark withstanding the trial. (and compensating for the remaining draw backs)

Thanks FearlessGnome! :smallwink:


DoctorGlockyou want the changes based off the choices made to the destination? This is where things get tough, don't bother with navigation checks or saves, give thematic options as (i don't know about the ship, but you can have it enter a realm somewhere between the physical and the plane of madness) they confront moral choices and manifestations of their souls and inner darkness. Instead of "Dc 25, you keep her on track" its "you can no longer see the horizon in any direction and darkness gathers around the ship, echoing screams fill the air and through the mists you see ghostly faces (player meets someone from past, forced to undergo some form of decision/trial regarding figure, god options include negotiation and whatnot, bad include cutting down the inconvenience, this results in the buildup of a taint/depravity score and physical changes/drift) and so on. they can pilot the ship through the mists and chaos to different events and how they do it determines which taints and drifts they acquire.

that is an awesome idea. In a way this is the ship trying to "test" it's new captain? interesting... i'll need to see if i can pull something persuasive enough. the main problem is that i have to do it 4 times- depending on who will be the player in charge.

and the players might argue about the results. but i'll think of this.


resulting in a fall, which is what it seems you are going for.

i'm really not. i am looking for the feel of the struggle to remain the same, as the ship tries to make you something else, that's all. the worst thing is for a player to actually BECOME the captain, as then he is removed from the game. (the souls has turned to something else. it exists no more)


so the players can have their forms altered with no consequence...

it's the captain's ordeal. others can find ways to help him/ her, but it's their test alone.


drift
taint (see what it does to casting)
grafts
aberrant feats
willing deformity feats

- have. might use as inspiration. need to change to outsider.
- don't have heroes of horror. but perhaps it's on the SRD? i remember wickedly complex mechanics...
- what are grafts?
- aberrant feats from Lords of Madness? have, will check, though they don't fit the outsider theme
- what are "willing deformity" feats? where are they from?

thanks DoctorGlock! :smallsmile:

[Flickerdart]

Take a look at the Binding mechanic in Tome of Magic. When the Binder makes a pact with a vestige (an otherworldly spirit), he manifests the spirit's sign (such as six fingers, or small horns) and, on a poor binding check, is compelled to act like the spirit (hate all Elves, must dance whenever able). You could combine these with the Geomancer drifts to show that the ship is affecting them more than just physically.

[Darth_Versity]

How about using the taint system from Heroes of Horror? It actually offers corruption that changes the character either mentally or physically. It could easily be reworked to what you need.

Edit: Missed Glocks post, he pretty much said all thats needed about taint.

[Kol Korran]

read from here (from the first post)

ok, so i've been doing a bit of reading, and a bit of thinking. I don't likethe taint mechanics for this encounter, they are too complicated for what i'm tying to achieve. my impression is that they should be in the a campaign rules file, not jumped on in a single encounter.

also, i tried to think of ambiguous and interesting "way point" of the travel as
DoctorGlock suggested, but came with way too few. i think i'll focus on scenic way points, perhaps some that show the way to the target, but not base the voyage on their decisions. sorry DoctorGlock- it's a great idea, i just don't think i'll be able to pull it off.

i did like the Binding mechanic Flickerdart, and i think i'll use it with alterations.

so, the following is my current idea. DCs are not yet figured, but they will soon. i still need help with fleshing this idea fully, so please help.

the main points that i'd like your advice and opinions are bolded, but anything is game.

The choosing of a captain for the Crimson Ship
so the PCs decided not to pay the price, and opted to kill the captain of the ship instead. after the fight however, the Ship remains in a place between worlds. the PCs try to navigate their way, but in the process the ship tries to transform the pilot into a new captain, most unwillingly.
purposes:
- it's not suppose to be the downfall of the character, or their death, but the risk must be there. the main feeling i want to convey is a race against time- sooner or later, the ship might get it's captain.

- the transformation is in it's way an alternate price. something the pilot sacrifices instead of the price they avoided. although the party will know it only at the end.

- Important: the challenge does focus on the pilot, but the group must have options to aid him- either in navigation, or helping him/ her against the ship. not all that sure how to approach this yet.

- Important: part of the transformation is temporary, but some is permanent. it is offset by the positive aspects of transformation. but i'm aiming at not having the player throw away his/ her character as unplayable because of this.

The Pilot choosing: touching the helm the character can suddenly see through the mist, and various distant destinations on the horizon. there are also mystic markings on the helm itself, changing. holding the helm however feels precarious, as it fights and twists when not touched by the Ship's captain, it demands concentration to navigate it.

so so far it seems perception and concentration can help the pilot navigate, and deciphering the arcane signs might help as well.

Any thing else that might help the pilot?

once one takes the helm in intention of piloting it, s/he suddenly feels a presence in their mind. the image of a captain leading the ship comes to mind, and with a sense of quandary, a question. this is their warning about what may happen. THEN, when someone takes the whell, the ship's bloody wood suddenly melds with one of the pilots hand, and some splinters into their arm, joining with it.

they can extract the pilot, but then it's considered massive damage. (and save or die) and still- you need a pilot...

The skills challenge- part one- navigating.
yes i said a skill challenge. i know some hate it, but i think it would fit in this case. each leg of the voyage, the pilot must make a concentration check (to keep the whell in place) and a perception check might help him locate the next destination (adding to the next throw). the party should have something to do to "aid another" the pilot. they can touch him and see through the mists (for perception), consult the runes of the helm (arcana), maybe locate what plane they are in (planes)

any other ideas? doesn't need to involve skills. i'll accept creative ideas from the party as well.

how many successes? 5 are needed to reach the destination, where the pilot will get his/ her chance to escape. if they fail miserably and the pilot transforms completely to the captain, then the captain assumes control (no longer their friend, now committed to the ship), and leads them immediately to the destination, one party member less.

The transformation
each pass the ship tries to exert it's influence on the captain. it tires to affect body, then mind and then soul (once for each pass, after the ship finishes all three, it goes back again until the pilot failed a category twice, which is then skipped.) if the pilot failed 6 times (2 at each) he is then fully transformed to the captain.

before we begin- i want the party to somehow have the ability to help the pilot. they can do that as well as assist in navigating. one possibility i thought was "distracting the ship", though they'll have to figure this out. the ship however retaliates to each attempt. and makes it impossible (or very hard?) to distract her in that exact fashion

any other ideas are welcomed. for distraction or other wise.

the transformations work on a similar mechanic- after help has been rendered, the player and ship roll 1d20+half character level (equals five for the party)+ relevant ability modifier. The ship's total is +15 it is stronger than the players, but the players will have full (or close to full) action points, so it should be tougher.

do you think different abilities should have a different modifier for the ship? each of the players has 1-2 good abilities to face it, and 1-2 lousy ones.

each transformation has 2 degrees (depending on the amount of failures). there are positive changes, permanent negative, and temporary negative (gone after 1 adventure). the descriptions of the second transformation includes the first.

Body transformations: the ship gets into the pilot's mind, giving the sense that his/ her body is weak, frail, that it would make him/ her stronger, better. ("we have the blood technology!" :smalltongue:) it tires to make him/her to an outsider in body

the ability is Con. the players might "distract" by attacking the ship's timber or sails. it then lashes out and makes the timber impervious, or furls the sails out of reach

first degree: immunity to poisons, resist cold, fire, lightning 5, +2 NA. temporary negatives: -2 to all physical skills (including concentration), -2 to attack and all AC.
permanent negative: -2 to Fort saves. (ravaged body)

second degree: doesn't eat, sleep or breath, immunity to poisons, resist cold, fire, lightning 10, +4 NA.
temporary negatives: -4 to all physical skills (including concentration), -3 to attack and all AC.
permanent negative: -3 to fort saves, -1 to ref (ravaged body)

Mind transformations: the ship gets into the pilot's mind, giving the sense that his/ her mind is disoriented, focused on frivilous things, not sharp enough, not ready... this too will be shaped to the right form.
it tires to make him/her to an outsider in mind

the ability is Int (wis is for soul). On the Deck there is a Deck of Conquerer (a game sort of like chess) which the Captain used to keep tracks of his "moves" in some cosmic game. there are other boards though, simpler ones. they might sit to "play a game" and distract the ship (or play against it?)

other ideas here?

first degree: telepathy to 20 ft, the player chooses 2 spells he knows at 2nd level, they become SLA usable a total of 7 times a day together.
temporary negatives: -2 to all mental skills, -3 to init, -1 CL.
permanent negative: -2 to will saves. (ravaged mind)

second degree: telepathy to 100 ft, the player chooses another spell of 2nd levelthat becomes an SLA the 3 abilites can be used 12 times total. on of this abilities can be quickened 3/ day
temporary negatives: -4 to all mental skills, -6 to init, -2 CL.
permanent negative: -3 to will saves. -1 to Ref saves(ravaged mind)

Soul transformations: the ship gets into the pilot's mind, feeling that he is mortal, fleeting, passing. it would not do, it needs it to stay, for a long time, forever...
it tires to make him/her to an outsider in soul, and one befitting the captain.

the ability is Wis. i'm not sure how the characters can help here. perhaps the cleric can pray or try to "strengthen the spirit somehow", or perhaps they can share their memories, talk about their goals, their purpose and so on? otr perhaps this is one test... the pilot must do alone.

other ideas here?

first degree: DR 5/ chaotic, SR 15
temporary negatives: the pilot becomes detached, his goals on different things than the characters. in any encounter after they leave the ship, the pilot must roll a will save to be able to not be passive in the encounter for 1d6 rounds.
permanent negative: alignment shift towards Lawful Neutral (the captain's alignment)

second degree: DR 10/ chaotic, SR 20
temporary negatives: the DC of detachment increases and now it's for 1d10 rounds
permanent negative: alignment shift towards Lawful Neutral (the captain's alignment) most characters are two steps away. Also- the character is now an extra planar outsider for purposes of no raise dead and such, and the ability to banish it to the plane of order. the alignment can change back, but the player has to play it.

Getting off the ship
as they reach the destination, the Pilot suddenly sense confusion in the ship, not knowing whether s/he is a passenger or a captain, and releases it's hold. i assume the players will run for it. as they get down the gangplank however, they sense the ship again. "the price has been paid" or something like that, before it shifts to the mists, looking for it's captain.
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so... any thoughts? like it? hate it? your thoughts and comments?