How do blackguards and evil paladins interact?

[Kaje]

Obviously, if a plain ole pally wants to be a blackguard, he loses his class features, and the text for blackguard speaks of ex-paladins gaining extra class features. So if a variant evil paladin took levels in blackguard would he A) have to lose his class features, and B) gain those extra features?

What if he took the pally levels after blackguard?

The reason I ask is I'm trying to make an awesome cha-based gestalt sorcadin melee debuffer, and trying to stack binder, paladin, hexblade, and blackguard features and wondering just how it's all gonna go down.

Here's the build:

Chaotic evil human necropolitan Battle Dancer 2 / Hexblade 4 / Fighter 2 / Feat Rogue 2 / Blackguard 3 / Paladin of Slaughter 2 / Warblade 5 // Binder 3 / Sorcerer 2 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Sorcerer 3 / Spelldancer 1 / Mindbender 1 / Incantatrix 5

Takes the feat to bind Focalor and uses the Dark Companion hexblade acf.

He dances himself buffed with free persists at the beginning of the day and then wades into melee to debuff his enemies' saves (via dark companion, aura of despair, aura of sadness) while other casters fling spells at the area, and he's protected by his CHA to AC, CHA to saves twice (thrice against spells) and buffs.

So anyway, does it work?

[Flickerdart]

Blackguards don't automatically make a Paladin lose his abilities. A Paladin taking the Blackguard PrC had to lose his abilities because he became Evil, but a Paladin of Tyranny or Slaughter was already evil. Since you are not a fallen Paladin, you gain none of the benefits normally afforded to this entry.

[Kaje]

Sweet. That's pretty much what I was hoping for.

[JaronK]

Yeah, Hexblade 4/Paladin of Tyranny 3/Blackguard 3 doesn't fall as a Paladin. He's quite happy being a creepy debuffing machine.

By the way, if you can be an Unseelie Fey, do it. -Cha mod to enemy saves is awesome.

JaronK

[Kish]

I'm at a loss for why a DM would use both the blackguard prestige class and the variant paladin classes in the same game.

[Darthteej]

I'm at a loss for why a DM would use both the blackguard prestige class and the variant paladin classes in the same game.

Blackguard has some stuff that Paladins, even the variants, don't necessarily get. The biggest ones that come to mind are Sneak Attack and getting spells much quicker. Which reminds me, do variant paladins get the Blackguard spell list?

[Kish]

Let me rephrase.

I'm at a loss for why a DM would choose to use multiple optional-extra classes which fill identical thematic roles, and differ only in one being less limited in that role than the others (in this case, "Lawful Evil Paladin," "Chaotic Evil Paladin," and "Evil Paladin"). I would blink the same way at the idea of adding a new class which has a thematic role identical to the wizard (without taking out the wizard).

[sreservoir]

Let me rephrase.

I'm at a loss for why a DM would choose to use multiple optional-extra classes which fill identical thematic roles, and differ only in one being less limited in that role than the others (in this case, "Lawful Evil Paladin," "Chaotic Evil Paladin," and "Evil Paladin"). I would blink the same way at the idea of adding a new class which has a thematic role identical to the wizard (without taking out the wizard).

and yet, wizard and sorcerer, right next to each other.

[Kish]

and yet, wizard and sorcerer, right next to each other.
Not only that, cleric and druid!

..."Casts the same type of spells in a different way"=/="an identical thematic role."

[Kaje]

Unseelie Fey is an inherited template, yes? If so, it's out, as necropolitan can only be added to humanoids or monstrous humanoids, and without that he doesn't get the free spelldancing.

Unless the playground can suggest other ways of being immune to fatigue and con damage. Or template combos that can change a fey into a (monstrous) humanoid.


Let me rephrase.

I'm at a loss for why a DM would choose to use multiple optional-extra classes which fill identical thematic roles, and differ only in one being less limited in that role than the others (in this case, "Lawful Evil Paladin," "Chaotic Evil Paladin," and "Evil Paladin"). I would blink the same way at the idea of adding a new class which has a thematic role identical to the wizard (without taking out the wizard).

Perhaps I should have mentioned that it's not for a game. Just an exercise in awesome gishing and cha-stacking shenanigans and such.

Also, classes are a metagame construct, and lots of options are good for the game.

[Jopustopin]

I'm a DM and here is my response:

Just because you fill the same thematic role does not mean that you are mechanically identical. A cleric of nature and a druid can fulfill the same thematic role but with mechanically different abilities. Options are fun. The point of the game is to have fun. Thus, I allow options.

[sreservoir]

Let me rephrase.

I'm at a loss for why a DM would choose to use multiple optional-extra classes which fill identical thematic roles, and differ only in one being less limited in that role than the others (in this case, "Lawful Evil Paladin," "Chaotic Evil Paladin," and "Evil Paladin"). I would blink the same way at the idea of adding a new class which has a thematic role identical to the wizard (without taking out the wizard).

and yet, wizard and sorcerer, right next to each other.

[Kaje]

Just noticed a mistake. I had been working from memory and thought Battle Dancers got evasion at level 2 like a monk. Oh, well that can be handled with a ring. What else should I put in instead of that level of battle dancer. Preferably with full bab.

Ooh, never mind. Just realized that the 5th level of hexblade gives me another curse use and a bonus feat so I don't have to waste a feat on combat casting.

[Flickerdart]

Paladins of Tyranny and Slaughter are exemplars of the vilest kind of Evil, they venerate and champion it. Blackguards are just guys that had a few drinks with an evil Outsider and decided that killing babies is pretty cool. They're nowhere near as committed to Evil, have no code that they must follow, nor restrictions on deities or alignment beyond general evil.

[hex0]

Just noticed a mistake. I had been working from memory and thought Battle Dancers got evasion at level 2 like a monk. Oh, well that can be handled with a ring. What else should I put in instead of that level of battle dancer. Preferably with full bab.

Rokugan Ninja. Full BAB and Sneak Attack. And +1 dodge. :smallwink:

Edit: or take Warblade earlier?

[flumphy]

Let me rephrase.

I'm at a loss for why a DM would choose to use multiple optional-extra classes which fill identical thematic roles, and differ only in one being less limited in that role than the others (in this case, "Lawful Evil Paladin," "Chaotic Evil Paladin," and "Evil Paladin"). I would blink the same way at the idea of adding a new class which has a thematic role identical to the wizard (without taking out the wizard).

Because they have different mechanical uses, as exemplified by the OP's build. Since the fluff isn't changing anyway, I see no reason not to allow the players to choose the crunch they like best.

3.5 is replete with redundancies. Other people already brought up wizard/sorcerer and cleric/druid. I'll raise them warblade/fighter, swordsage/ninja, and warlock/sorceror. And that's without going into PrCs or obscure sources. Each pair could be used to represent the same character, but they end up playing very differently.

[The Glyphstone]

And when you take both at once (well, Evil Paladin + Blackguard, though Wizard+Sorcerer works with, say, UM), it becomes an emphasis on your character's concept, rather than a redundancy. Kicking puppies and eating babies is such a fundamental part of their being that every aspect of their mechanical side is devoted to furthering that side of them.

[Dr.Epic]

Blackguards don't automatically make a Paladin lose his abilities. A Paladin taking the Blackguard PrC had to lose his abilities because he became Evil, but a Paladin of Tyranny or Slaughter was already evil. Since you are not a fallen Paladin, you gain none of the benefits normally afforded to this entry.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure if you're already evil you don't lose anything and don't get to trade anything in. It only works if you're a good paladin because evil likes to corrupt good and paladins are usually as good as they come.

[Urpriest]

Now, Paladin/Prestige Paladin or Ranger/Prestige Ranger on the other hand...

Hmm, now I want someone to build a Paladin of Tyranny/Prestige Paladin of Tyranny/Blackguard....

[hex0]

Now, Paladin/Prestige Paladin or Ranger/Prestige Ranger on the other hand...

Hmm, now I want someone to build a Paladin of Tyranny/Prestige Paladin of Tyranny/Blackguard....

Usually have to choose one or the other. It is in the (variant) rules. Though Cleric 6/Prestige Paladin 3 is better than Paladin 9 in my book, that is a story for another day. :smallbiggrin:

[erikun]

Yeah, prestige classes are a variant of the class, so you should really only be taking one or the other. Paladin/Prestige Paladin makes about as much sense as a Ranger/Planar Ranger/Urban Ranger/Mystic Ranger/Wildshape Ranger/Prestige Ranger, or (as I've seen in one build) four different first-level variants of Cleric to grab all the domains.