Nymph's Kiss Balance?

[hex0]

So the feat has no prerequisites and gives you three amazing features. Am I missing something or is this the most powerful feat in the game? :smallconfused:

Shouldn't every character take it at first level?

[Talya]

So the feat has no prerequisites and gives you three amazing features. Am I missing something or is this the most powerful feat in the game? :smallconfused:

Shouldn't every character take it at first level?

(1) No. Not every character wants to be exalted good. Note that holds you to an almost paladin-like code of conduct.
(2) The other requirements are not guaranteed at first level either. Your DM has to agree to giving you a relationship with a fey creature at level 1, and thereafter you must maintain such a relationship or you lose the benefit of the feat.
(3) While very, very good, +1 skill point per level, +1 to saves, and +2 to charisma based skill checks is hardly as impressive as several feats that grant entirely new abilities.

[Flickerdart]

Nymph's Kiss gives me a couple minor bonuses and saddles me with a relationship. By comparison, Natural Spell allows me to win Druid.

[Amphetryon]

Nymph's Kiss gives me a couple minor bonuses and saddles me with a relationship. By comparison, Natural Spell allows me to win Druid.

:smallconfused: I thought Natural Spell was an ACF Druids could take in lieu of their 6th level feat. . . .

:smalltongue:

[Morph Bark]

The only downside to taking Nymph's Kiss is that you cannot also take Lichloved.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Leadership [/thread]

[JaronK]

The only downside to taking Nymph's Kiss is that you cannot also take Lichloved.

Polyamorous Hellbred?

Seriously though, it would be a solid skillmonkey feat if it were Exalted. But it is. So nevermind. Leadership, Shock Trooper, DMM:Persistent Spell, and a host of other feats are a lot stronger anyhow.

JaronK

[Necroticplague]

Its not exactly AMAZING, but its not too bad either. Its a couple small boosts, but nothing game changing. The skill bonus is small, but good over the long run, the save bonuses aren't worth a feat (seriously, a continuous item of resistance offers the same benefit for 2000 or 4000 gold), and the +2 to cha based skiills is mostly forgetable, since builds that focus on the cha skills other than umd typically pump tham u so high the +2 is a microscopic bonus, so its main benefit of that part is umd. In turn, you must make regular appointments with the fey, and since its exalted, you have to keep an extremely tight restrictin on your actions (its way to easy to get into a lose-lose alignment situation with exalted).

[prufock]

It's probably the best Exalted feat, but definitely not the best feat. Then again, the Exalted feats are mostly craptastic anyway.

[BlackestOfMages]

and a lot of DM's will murder you for mentioning the book of exalted dunces, which can also be considered a negative...

and, as stated, you do need to retain your relationship with the fey, and stay exalted good (which is very unfey in behavior, TBH, so will probably net you loosing said fey as a freind)

now, a druid with natural spell is much, much more nasty for one feat. further so if they decided to be a poverty-stricken bear to give you boosts in bear form instead of that useles gear your getting that requires thumbs you gave up for godly power...

[Havelock]

-It's half as strong as having each of the save boosters.
-It's as strong as having four feats giving +2 to two different skills.
-It allows you to max out another skill.

Frankly, just the first effect is equal to an another feat (luck of heroes). The second is equal to four feats. The third is equal to 1 feat+1 feat per 5 levels beyond the first (there's a feat giving you 5 skill ranks).

Granted, it's not likely you'd want to take any of the feats just mentioned (I'd consider luck of heroes in the rare case that I have a feat slot to spare, anything making your saves better is good, save boosting magic item is the first thing I invest in, always).

It's very strong, and quite out of balance for what it does compared to feats that does the same thing.

Most builds have feats that adds more significant increases to power than this can do. From a mechanical view, it's definitely a feat I'd try to fit into most builds, assuming I can either ignore the fluff requirements or actually won't mind adhering to them. Cheesy way is to take the feat, be exalted, grab leadership and let your beloved fey be a follower or mebbe your cohort, relationship maintenance no longer a problem:smallcool:

[Eldariel]

I love using it on Int-based skill monkeys since they have some trouble with the Charisma-based skills naturally and it really helps. And obviously, skill monkey loves skill points. Of course, it only makes so much sense for some races; that said, it's mechanically sound (only really good skill monkey feat in addition to Able Learner, and Able Learner sadly exists only to combat the cumbrous cross-class skill system) and definitely a solid feat, but not any manner of autopick even discounting the requirements (especially "Exalted", which is quite steep).

[Amoren]

To be fair, I always used Nymph's Kiss just for the skill boost, but that's because I love rogues and the character I was using it on was a fey (so sort of easy to keep up the relationship if you're one of them!). That said, I always thought the charisma and save boosters only worked on/against fey, seems like that would fit more...

Also, isn't the saves only against spells? So they wouldn't help you against most things over save boosts would (Assassin death attack, some feats that have saves such as stunning fist or staggering blow, traps, etc?).

[marcielle]

If you're going exalted, might as well get the awesome familiar fairy. Factotum+Nymphs kiss+Exalted familiar works out pretty well.

[Trinoya]

Nymphs kiss is perfectly balanced, as long as you have a good DM who knows how to let it be used. Since you have to basically be good (or at least a very good role player if you're not), it requires a heavy investment on the players part.

Furthermore: The feat says that all you must do is maintain an intimate relationship with a good aligned fey. You can represent this with nearly any type of relationship, as long as you make sure it is very close. For example, it could be family, romantic, friendship, rivalry, etc... just a very close interpretation of those. If the DM is good, he'll have this have game impact.

[ThiefInTheNight]

It's very strong, and quite out of balance for what it does compared to feats that does the same thing.
The feats that do the same things are abysmal and should never have been printed. In the grand scheme of things, it's useful but not that great. It definitely does not qualify as "very strong".

[gkathellar]

Nymph's Kiss is an okay feat. Not quite as good as feats really should be, but definitely on the right track.


:smallconfused: I thought Natural Spell was an ACF Druids could take in lieu of their 6th level feat. . . .

:smalltongue:

Wait, Natural Spell is optional? I thought Druids didn't get a feat at 6th level as part of that class feature. :smallwink:

[JaronK]

The primary way it's overpowered:

Step 1: Play as a Nymph Bard.
Step 2: Take Nymph's Kiss.
Step 3: Hot lesbian makeouts that are so hot, people would be blinded just seeing them.

You win!

JaronK

[kardar233]

Your Bard abilities require ranks in a Perform skill, they don't mention which one...

[Dusk Eclipse]

Your Bard abilities require ranks in a Perform skill, they don't mention which one...

Pervirtuoso? :smalltongue:

[Cieyrin]

It's obviously meant for Exalted Factotums: +1 skill point/level for more skills, +2 to Iaijutsu Focus and better ability to avoid spells. What's not to like? :smalltongue:

[JaronK]

Your Bard abilities require ranks in a Perform skill, they don't mention which one...

Perform: Cunning Linguistics. That's why she's a Bard (also, the Cha dependency).

JaronK

[The Glyphstone]

Any feat that sets your alignment to Stupid Good is not overpowered.

[Chess435]

The primary way it's overpowered:

Step 1: Play as a Nymph Bard.
Step 2: Take Nymph's Kiss.
Step 3: Hot lesbian makeouts that are so hot, people would be blinded just seeing them.

You win!

JaronK

You win the thread, as well as a six pack of internets. :smallbiggrin:

[Coidzor]

now, a druid with natural spell is much, much more nasty for one feat. further so if they decided to be a poverty-stricken bear to give you boosts in bear form instead of that useles gear your getting that requires thumbs you gave up for godly power...

You've never heard of Wilding Clasps then. :smallamused:

Totally better than what being a hobo's hobo can get ya.

[Cieyrin]

You've never heard of Wilding Clasps then. :smallamused:

Totally better than what being a hobo's hobo can get ya.

Or you just hire somebody to dress you after you Wild Shape, since most magic gear reshapes except weapons and armor. Wilding Clasps are for when you have to change in a hurry. :smallwink:

[Darthteej]

I didn't realize that the BoED had reached such levels of hatred. I've always considered it a really strong guideline, as long as you don't stick too close to the letter of the restrictions. Hell, the book itself talks some about how being good is most about sticking to the spirit of good.

[The Glyphstone]

I didn't realize that the BoED had reached such levels of hatred. I've always considered it a really strong guideline, as long as you don't stick too close to the letter of the restrictions. Hell, the book itself talks some about how being good is most about sticking to the spirit of good.

And therein's the issue. To get the benefits of Exalted feats like Nymph's kiss, you have to follow the letter of the restrictions down to every crossed T and dotted I, and even involuntary slipups cost you huge. And the benefits, for waht you have to put up with, aren't even that useful for the most part...

[Urpriest]

You've never heard of Wilding Clasps then. :smallamused:

Totally better than what being a hobo's hobo can get ya.

On the other hand, having your Animal Companion take Vow of Poverty loses you much less...

[Darthteej]

And therein's the issue. To get the benefits of Exalted feats like Nymph's kiss, you have to follow the letter of the restrictions down to every crossed T and dotted I, and even involuntary slipups cost you huge. And the benefits, for waht you have to put up with, aren't even that useful for the most part...

I think reasonable DMs would allow some leeway though, as they tend to do. I've heard third hand that one of the reasons for the BoED has the "mature content" sticker is in part because it's meant to be taken as a somewhat serious dissemination of good within the game, otherwise it would be taken as a standard D&D book, and then we'd just have endless discussions about Vow of Poverty.

[Coidzor]

I think reasonable DMs would allow some leeway though, as they tend to do. I've heard third hand that one of the reasons for the BoED has the "mature content" sticker is in part because it's meant to be taken as a somewhat serious dissemination of good within the game, otherwise it would be taken as a standard D&D book, and then we'd just have endless discussions about Vow of Poverty.

You mean we don't have endless discussions about Vow of Poverty? :smalltongue:

And being a serious dissemination of good within the game is somewhat hampered by ravages and all of the goofiness, and has nothing to do with the feats being generally bad and having explicit language forbidding retraining of the feat slot rather than it being something that's implicit unless the DM provides a method of retraining.


On the other hand, having your Animal Companion take Vow of Poverty loses you much less...

Saves you the cost of equippin' it, yeah.

[Talya]

It's probably the best Exalted feat, but definitely not the best feat. Then again, the Exalted feats are mostly craptastic anyway.

Unless you're a druid. Then you have access to several very good exalted feats.

Nymph's Kiss
Exalted Wild Shape
Exalted Companion
Touch of Golden Ice (works on all your natural attacks)
Sanctify Natural Attack
Animal Friend (hey, if you use wild empathy at all, it's actually quite good)

[Morph Bark]

And therein's the issue. To get the benefits of Exalted feats like Nymph's kiss, you have to follow the letter of the restrictions down to every crossed T and dotted I, and even involuntary slipups cost you huge. And the benefits, for waht you have to put up with, aren't even that useful for the most part...

But an I does not have a dot...


Unless you're a druid. Then you have access to several very good exalted feats.

Nymph's Kiss
Exalted Wild Shape
Exalted Companion
Touch of Golden Ice (works on all your natural attacks)
Sanctify Natural Attack
Animal Friend (hey, if you use wild empathy at all, it's actually quite good)

/forwards to a Totemist friend :smalltongue:

[Ilidrim]

I realize that no one's posted on this thread for a while, but I'll tell you why I like this feat, and why I think it is balanced. For one thing, it encourages roleplaying between the GM (as the fey-based character) and the player. Secondly, the bonuses it gives out are a good counterpoint to the demands - you have to be a good guy and you have to periodically return to where the fey is located and spend some time with them.
The biggest thing, though, is this. How many games have you sat in where a (probably male) player is trying to have their character hook up with an NPC? If you've had anything like my experience, probably quite a few. This feat guarantees your character an eternally young, eternally hot lover. And you can take it at first level, which means your character will start the game with a circumstantial bonus to resist things like succubi or incubi, certain illusions, etc. In short, how will the evil princess seduce your character if the character is already in a long-term, loving relationship with a nymph? Even in the Order of the Stick itself Elan's silent image spell failed against a chimera because the chimera was in a committed relationship.
In the lyrics of Molly Hatchet, "Ain't no girl can turn my head, 'cause I got better, waiting home in bed."

[Talya]

but I'll tell you why I like this feat, and why I think it is balanced. For one thing, it encourages roleplaying between the GM (as the fey-based character) and the player.

I know I'm in the minority, but I love mechanics that are linked to roleplaying concerns. They add a lot of flavor for me. I like "optimizing to a theme," as opposed to just trying to make the most effective character possible. As such, theme-based feats and PrCs are great.

[Deophaun]

I will note that the part about maintaining a close relationship with a fey creature is not under the benefit description, a prerequisite header, or a special entry. As such, it is nonfunctional flavor text and can be ignored.

Edit: Damn, should have noticed the thread necro.

[Talya]

I will note that the part about maintaining a close relationship with a fey creature is not under the benefit description, a prerequisite header, or a special entry. As such, it is nonfunctional flavor text and can be ignored.

Nothing against you personally, Deophaun, but this is an example of where optimization, for me personally, crosses into distasteful and, dare I say it, "cheesy." It's not even an issue with power. It's an issue of blatantly ignoring the flavor and intent of the mechanic in question, and just treating the mechanics like a bunch of numbers you're trying to get to go in your favor.

For me, the mechanics and 'flavor text,' or "crunch" and "fluff" as you prefer, are equally valid and important, and inseparably linked together. Using the identical mechanics for an entirely differently flavored way is actually homebrew. (for instance, I reflavored the nybor's spells to do what they do by causing intense... climactic pleasure, rather than pain. These were homebrew spells, even if the mechanics of them were identical.)

[Deophaun]

Nothing against you personally, Deophaun, but this is an example of where optimization, for me personally, crosses into distasteful and, dare I say it, "cheesy." It's not even an issue with power. It's an issue of blatantly ignoring the flavor and intent of the mechanic in question, and just treating the mechanics like a bunch of numbers you're trying to get to go in your favor.
Everything you said is objectively false. While in this case flavor text may put a restriction on the feat, that is not always the case and its exclusion can hurt a feat. Take Extraordinary Concentration. The flavor text says you can cast a spell while concentrating on another. The benefit, however, lets you do no such thing. Is it therefore an example of where optimization crosses into the distasteful to go by strict RAW? No. That makes no sense.

If you want to give your players who take Nymph's kiss a fey lover, go right ahead. If you want to write one into your backstory, go right ahead. But do not say that Nymph's Kiss requires you to have a relationship with a fey creature by RAW, because it doesn't.

[Talya]

I disagree, for several reasons, and i don't think you can say it's objective.

Extraordinary Concentration does allow you to cast a spell while concentrating on another, if that is it says it does in the text. Nowhere in the rules does it even say the "flavor text" is superfluous. if it's stated, it's RAW. There's not even anything to distinguish what you call "flavor text" and other text. The only time for concern is when they conflict (such as in the case of Sacred Fist spellcasting progression.) And hey, in those cases, where text and tables conflict, the text is given priority by RAW. And I don't like differentiating between mechanical, numerical effects and those stated that are more roleplaying related.

That's my personal opinion. You have yours. I don't think the stated rules support yours more than mine. Ultimately, in both cases, it's going to come down to the individual DM, but I believe that your scenario is the one that requires invoking "rule 0," not mine. The DM is not going beyond the rules by enforcing the text in the books.

[Deophaun]

I disagree, for several reasons, and i don't think you can say it's objective.
I can say it's objective, because you imputed bad faith instead of adherence to a universal rule. That is demonstrably false.

Extraordinary Concentration does allow you to cast a spell while concentrating on another, if that is it says it does in the text. Nowhere in the rules does it even say the "flavor text" is superfluous. if it's stated, it's RAW. There's not even anything to distinguish what you call "flavor text" and other text.
Page 89 PHB. Tells you what each entry in the feat is there to do. The first, unlabeled lines are plain language, not rules.

[Eslin]

Or we can just acknowledge that nymph's kiss is just a pretty good feat, one of the only +numbers feats worth getting. Knowledge and half the other devotions, natural spell, practiced spellcaster, shape soulmeld, mindsight, obtain familiar, wild cohort, spell focus: divination, brand of the nine hells/mark of x, tomb-tainted soul, steadfast determination, exotic weapon proficiency: bastard sword, able learner, racial emulation, master poisoner, versatile spellcaster, cautious attack, arcane thesis, imperious command, font of inspiration, run, share soulmelds, uncanny forethought, hidden talent and many more feats give you entirely new qualities and abilities, nymph's kiss should be the benchmark for +numbers style feats.

[Barsoom]

Or we can just acknowledge that nymph's kiss is just a pretty good feat, one of the only +numbers feats worth getting. Knowledge and half the other devotions, natural spell, practiced spellcaster, shape soulmeld, mindsight, obtain familiar, wild cohort, spell focus: divination, brand of the nine hells/mark of x, tomb-tainted soul, steadfast determination, exotic weapon proficiency: bastard sword, able learner, racial emulation, master poisoner, versatile spellcaster, cautious attack, arcane thesis, imperious command, font of inspiration, endurance, , uncanny forethought, hidden talent and many more feats give you entirely new qualities and abilities, I like it how you covertly snuck one of the worst feats in the game into that list.


nymph's kiss should be the benchmark for +numbers style feats.High watermark, rather.

[Flickerdart]

I like it how you covertly snuck one of the worst feats in the game into that list.
Endurance is on there as well.

[Barsoom]

Endurance is on there as well.

That one is at least a prereq for some genuinely good stuff

[Eslin]

That one is at least a prereq for some genuinely good stuff

My bad, changed it to run. And said genuinely good stuff is there in its own right.

Though that does raise a good question about feat value. Steadfast determination is a good, though not game breaking, feat. It has endurance as a requirement in acknowledgement of the fact that it's flat out better than most other feats - but most other feats are crap and kind of boring. Should each feat be as valuable as steadfast determination, or should such good feats have feat tax pre-requisites?
I also included the worst feat in the game on that list, cautios attack. It is amazingly useless, +1 to ac when you ready a standard action to make an attack. +1 to ac in general isn't worth a feat, and it only applies under a single very specific circumstance?

[Jeff the Green]

It's good, but even were it not Exalted, it's not horribly overpowered. It's probably on the same level as Quicken Spell, Power Attack, or Improved Trip.

Skill Monkeys already have crappy feat choices; let them have this one.

[cerin616]

Ah crap. well, seeing as we brought this thread to life anyway, i would point out that being exalted good is way more forgiving than a paladin.

A rogue can sneak attack and still be exalted, which breaks the paladin code of honor as one example.

[Invader]

-It's half as strong as having each of the save boosters.
-It's as strong as having four feats giving +2 to two different skills.
-It allows you to max out another skill.

Frankly, just the first effect is equal to an another feat (luck of heroes). The second is equal to four feats. The third is equal to 1 feat+1 feat per 5 levels beyond the first (there's a feat giving you 5 skill ranks).

Granted, it's not likely you'd want to take any of the feats just mentioned (I'd consider luck of heroes in the rare case that I have a feat slot to spare, anything making your saves better is good, save boosting magic item is the first thing I invest in, always).

It's very strong, and quite out of balance for what it does compared to feats that does the same thing.

Most builds have feats that adds more significant increases to power than this can do. From a mechanical view, it's definitely a feat I'd try to fit into most builds, assuming I can either ignore the fluff requirements or actually won't mind adhering to them. Cheesy way is to take the feat, be exalted, grab leadership and let your beloved fey be a follower or mebbe your cohort, relationship maintenance no longer a problem:smallcool:

The fact that it takes all those other feats to emulate what you get from nymph's kiss isn't so much an argument that nymph's kiss is particularly strong but that all those other feats are nearly worthless.

[Chronos]

To whoever it was who said that Nymph's Kiss and Able Learner are the only good skillmonkey feats, I respond with Obtain Familiar and/or Psicrystal Affinity. If you qualify for either or both, you should take those: Either one of them gives you an entire extra creature with all of your skills, which could, for instance, use those skills to Aid Another you. Or act as a lookout, or advance scout, or accomplice, etc.

That said, though, Nymph's Kiss is still a pretty good feat. Just beware of villains taking your fey SO hostage, or the like.

[Gavinfoxx]

Ah crap. well, seeing as we brought this thread to life anyway, i would point out that being exalted good is way more forgiving than a paladin.

A rogue can sneak attack and still be exalted, which breaks the paladin code of honor as one example.

What are you talking about??

Paladins can Sneak Attack. And Exalted is MORE restrictive than Paladins...

[Jeff the Green]

That said, though, Nymph's Kiss is still a pretty good feat. Just beware of villains taking your fey SO hostage, or the like.

See, that's the thing I deliberately build into my characters. I like giving my characters roleplaying weaknesses for my DM to exploit. I've got one character right now who has Nymph's kiss (DM waived the exalted requirement and might have waived the RP requirement, but I kept the relationship bit), and his companion dryad* is currently on the run because the two of them pissed off a nobleman. He fled to the slums, where the campaign is based, and she fled to the forest. This gives me a fantastic campaign-long motive and adventure hooks for my DM to throw at me.

In another campaign, my cleric is deathly afraid of fire and absolutely refuses to use things like alchemist fire. We've run into occasions where alchemist's fire would have made things a bit easier and fought in a burning barn where it would have been nice to be able to go in and not have to rely on ranged attacks or attacking only the enemies at the entrance of the barn.

*Notably, the feat doesn't require the relationship to be sexual, just "intimate." So I made a warforged who was created with help from a dryad (his sinews are livewood), and adventured with her. They're best friends and have worked together for nearly a hundred years. I can't think of a more intimate relationship, even though my character lacks the requisite plumbing for sex.

Edit:

What are you talking about??

Paladins can Sneak Attack. And Exalted is MORE restrictive than Paladins...

Well, usually, but an exalted rogue doesn't have to "respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth)... [or] punish those who harm or threaten innocents"

[Talya]

And Exalted is MORE restrictive than Paladins...

Yes and no.

Exalted only requires you to be "good."

There is no inherent virtue toward goodness on the law-chaos access. Lawful Good is not more good than Chaotic Good.

The Paladin, while not prohibited from doing non-lawful things, must maintain a lawful alignment. The Exalted character can be a complete anti-authoritarian anarchist and still remain "good." And, in fact, when compared to the feat we're discussing, Nymph's Kiss, the Lawful character is going to have a much harder time remaining friends with a Fey creature than the Chaotic Good character. Fey are generally chaotic creatures.

[cerin616]

What are you talking about??

Paladins can Sneak Attack. And Exalted is MORE restrictive than Paladins...

Code of Conduct:A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act... ...act with honor(not lying, not cheating, not using poison and so forth)


its called SNEAK attack.


And i would argue a paladin is inherently exalted good as the code of conduct uses the same examples as an exalted good character in the terms of limitations.

[Der_DWSage]

It's called Sneak Attack, yes. A more appropriate name for it would be 'precisely aimed attack best used when your foe is distracted.'

By the same logic, fighting against a foe you outnumber is also against the Paladin code.

Also, RAW? Paladins can sneak attack. There's nothing preventing them from doing so, any more than they're prevented from taking advantage of flanking bonuses.

[cerin616]

Its a gray area at best, but sneak attack damage is damage gained when you fight your opponent on uneven grounds, which is not honorable, and is pretty much cheating in terms of combat.

Its literally a sucker punch.

precisely placed damage is precision damage, which is perfectly acceptable.

[Cieyrin]

Code of Conduct:A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act... ...act with honor(not lying, not cheating, not using poison and so forth)


its called SNEAK attack.

Being honorable doesn't prohibit you from stabbing a guy in the groin if he doesn't notice you there or if he's surrounded and can't adequately guard from attacks on all sides (i.e. flanked). You're thinking more in line with the Knight's code, which makes Sneak Attacking rather difficult to pull off.

[cerin616]

The knights code is exactly what the paladin code of honor is. the only way i feel you can sneak attack as a paladin is maybe only through flanking. No sneaking up and blind siding.

[Barsoom]

Of course Paladins can Sneak Attack. What else is Devoted Inquisitor (CAdv) for?

[Phippster]

The Knight's Code and The Paladin's Code are actually quite different. The Knight's Code includes many in-combat problems, such as not allowing you to gain sneak attack, gain the bonus towards a flanked enemy, etc.

Paladins just can't use things like poison to accomplish their goals. Then again, the Playground has argued more than one that the Paladin Code is too restrictive in many senses anyway.

[Invader]

Its a gray area at best, but sneak attack damage is damage gained when you fight your opponent on uneven grounds, which is not honorable, and is pretty much cheating in terms of combat.

Its literally a sucker punch.

precisely placed damage is precision damage, which is perfectly acceptable.

Unfortunately you're incorrect. There's nothing in the description of sneak attack that claims it's underhanded in any way. The fact that it has name that sounds contradictory to the paladin code has nothing to do on whether a paladin can use it or not.

[mattie_p]

precisely placed damage is precision damage, which is perfectly acceptable.

Then you should be fine with sneak attack. From the Rules Compendium p42:


A number of abilities in the game allow a creature to deal extra damage by striking a vital area. This category of abilities includes sneak
attack and other abilities that work like it, such as a ninja’s sudden strike (Complete Adventurer 8) and scout’s skirmish (Complete Adventurer 12). For the sake of simplicity, the extra damage such abilities deal is referred to as precision damage.

[Invader]

Then you should be fine with sneak attack. From the Rules Compendium p42:

Obviously he meant another kind of precision. :smallamused:

[Kelb_Panthera]

@Paladins' Honour:

The problem with the section of the paladin's code saying that they must act with honor is that honor is a culturally subjective concept. The word 'honor' is meaningless without a cultural context.

The parenthetical examples that follow that line in the paladin's code are (loosely) suggestive of something based on the chivalric code of medieval european knights but there simply is no context by which to define a paladin's honor code in any kind of legalistic RAW manner.

Whether or not sneak attack is an acceptable method for a paladin depends on the culture and tradtions in which he was raised, that is to say; it's strictly a matter of coming to an agreement with your DM about your individual paladin's honor code.

[Jeff the Green]

@Paladins' Honour:

The problem with the section of the paladin's code saying that they must act with honor is that honor is a culturally subjective concept. The word 'honor' is meaningless without a cultural context.

The parenthetical examples that follow that line in the paladin's code are (loosely) suggestive of something based on the chivalric code of medieval european knights but there simply is no context by which to define a paladin's honor code in any kind of legalistic RAW manner.

Whether or not sneak attack is an acceptable method for a paladin depends on the culture and tradtions in which he was raised, that is to say; it's strictly a matter of coming to an agreement with your DM about your individual paladin's honor code.

Agreed. Samurai honor would probably forbid sneak attack. Mafia honor, less so.

Yet another reason to hate the paladin code of conduct.

[cerin616]

I will concede to the point that this is at best a gray area argument. There is nothing in the rules that clearly states "you cannot sneak attack as the paladin" but it falls under a paladin code in my opinion.

The cool thing about devoted inquisitor is that it even says "by using unconventional methods as a rogue"

using methods that are unconventional means your not following protocol, which pushes the limit of law.

[Chronos]

I wouldn't say that there's anything wrong with the paladin's code, per se. You just need to work it out with your DM beforehand. What's acceptable to one paladin might not be to another.

Jeff the Green, I like your story of the warforged and dryad. But how did you get around the requirement that a dryad stay close to her tree?

[Sith_Happens]

Jeff the Green, I like your story of the warforged and dryad. But how did you get around the requirement that a dryad stay close to her tree?

Maybe the warforged was made from her tree? That would be about as intimate as it gets.

Or, you know, Acorn of Far Travel.

[Jeff the Green]

Jeff the Green, I like your story of the warforged and dryad. But how did you get around the requirement that a dryad stay close to her tree?

Livewood. Her tree was cut down by loggers, but she found a livewood log among their timber and bound to it. Then she fashioned it into a bow and hunted them down, one by one. In one campaign I played the dryad as an ungodly gestalt of like nine different classes in seven levels and was planning to go into the Livewood Daughter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13785161#post13785161) PrC I designed.

[Talakeal]

Question, how does one tell if something is "rules text" vs. "flavor text"?

Normally one can tell using commong sense, but that is using the reviled RAI rather than RAW.

Is there some font difference or something that I am missing? Many things that are clearly rules are stated in a fluffly manner which never directly states anything.

Also, tables are simply summaries of the full rules, and are explicitly called out of being supporting rather than primary text and therefore not reliable when contradictory.

[nyjastul69]

Agreed. Samurai honor would probably forbid sneak attack. Mafia honor, less so.

Yet another reason to hate the paladin code of conduct.

I actually consider that a strength of the the paladin's code. I think it's better that the rules allow the player and DM to work out the specifics of the code to suit the player and DM in their particular game.

[Jeff the Green]

Question, how does one tell if something is "rules text" vs. "flavor text"?

Normally one can tell using commong sense, but that is using the reviled RAI rather than RAW.

Is there some font difference or something that I am missing? Many things that are clearly rules are stated in a fluffly manner which never directly states anything.

Also, tables are simply summaries of the full rules, and are explicitly called out of being supporting rather than primary text and therefore not reliable when contradictory.

Generally, what is called fluff text is printed in italics.


I actually consider that a strength of the the paladin's code. I think it's better that the rules allow the player and DM to work out the specifics of the code to suit the player and DM in their particular game.

That's not what I was talking about. If it had said "you need to work with your DM to create an appropriate Paladin code," I'd be very happy. It doesn't; instead it just says you have to act with honor. Since everyone has an idea of what is honorable and what isn't, and those tend to not match up, it's a recipe for DM screw. It should either be explicit about what the code requires or be explicit that you have to work it out with your DM.

[nyjastul69]

Generally, what is called fluff text is printed in italics.



That's not what I was talking about. If it had said "you need to work with your DM to create an appropriate Paladin code," I'd be very happy. It doesn't; instead it just says you have to act with honor. Since everyone has an idea of what is honorable and what isn't, and those tend to not match up, it's a recipe for DM screw. It should either be explicit about what the code requires or be explicit that you have to work it out with your DM.

I think most people can agree on what is honorable in any given campaign. I have not found your 'tend to not match up' statement accurate to any game I've played. My personal experience is that they actually do 'tend to match up' in a given campaign. YMMV. I'm not trying to be difficult here, I'm just stating that there are other valid opinions about a paladin's code of honor. A DM doesn't need a recipe to srcew with players. It's easily done without a recipe. The paladin's code has nothing to do with the fact that a DM can just mess with the players if the DM so chooses.

[Eslin]

I kind of agree with Jeff - it makes disagreements very common. Even on this thread we've had very divided opinions on whether sneak attacking is honourable, and this is the kind of thing that can easily lead to player and DM arguments.

I really wish they'd added a line mentioning that you are encouraged to work out an oath appropriate to your character and campaign.

[Jeff the Green]

I think most people can agree on what is honorable in any given campaign. I have not found your 'tend to not match up' statement accurate to any game I've played. My personal experience is that they actually do 'tend to match up' in a given campaign. YMMV. I'm not trying to be difficult here, I'm just stating that there are other valid opinions about a paladin's code of honor. A DM doesn't need a recipe to srcew with players. It's easily done without a recipe. The paladin's code has nothing to do with the fact that a DM can just mess with the players if the DM so chooses.

You're lucky. I've never played paladin, nor been in a game with a paladin that wasn't a DMPC (off topic, but if you're planning on getting into a game where there's a paladin DMPC who's also the party leader, run away), but there are horror stories all over the boards about these things.

I probably chose my words poorly when I said it was a recipe for DM screw. I didn't mean the DM intentionally screwing over the player (though the code gives plenty of ammunition for the DM who wants to do so), but the player being unintentionally screwed over by the DM when the DM interprets the code differently than the player.

[Chronos]

Y'know, on thinking about it, Jeff has a point. I've always taken it for granted that, of course the paladin's player and the DM should have a talk beforehand about just what that paladin's code is... But it never actually says that, and that's something that might not occur to another player. And it could have been very easily fixed with a single sentence in the right place.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Question, how does one tell if something is "rules text" vs. "flavor text"?

Honestly this is something that is open to debate, however I think the best way to form a good sense of what "flavor text" is would be to open a hard copy of the PHB and at the same time look at the SRD. Everything that was left out is Flavor text.

For example the Precise Shot feat has flavor text that reads "You are skilled at timing and aiming shots."

If we ignore our game knowledge we could guess that this did any number of things like add precision damage, allow you to act out of turn, add bonuses to hit, etc.

Further should all in world archers without precise shot show a lack of skill at aiming and timing? A penalty to hitting moving targets since they don't have the timing to lead their shot? And why does this generic "skill" that sounds universally useful do nothing in the vast majority of situations?

On the OP topic:
Nymph's Kiss is actually worth a feat unlike most Exalted Feats and most skill related feats. This makes it an OP exalted feat because the existence of a dozen or more exalted feats of this quality (for non-druids) might make VoP o.k. or even good (for non-druids).