A little help with feat structuring for a rogue-ish character

[Lictor of Thrax]

So I'm playing a swashbuckler/rogue type character who's going to be our primary striker/damage dealer and I'm at a point where I can choose dodge, to eventually get to the spring attack feats but I haven't taken weapon focus yet, either.

More-so, there's SO MANY freaking other feats and feat trees that I could take I'm a bit lost.

Are there any non-players handbook feats out there that someone would suggest over these feats? Should I go down the focus route first since, in the end, hit and damage bonuses are some of the most important add-ons you can have?

Really, the main thing is that there's just SO much to read. We have pretty much every resource available to us when we put all our books together but many of them belong to other players so I haven't been able to sit and read through them page by page.

[Noblesse]

Here's a very comprehensive guide to all things rogue!

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8711233

Also, it seems to be the general opinion of the board that weapon focus and dodge/mobility/spring attack are 'subpar' feats.

[NNescio]

Weapon focus is very mediocre. You gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls. That's it. Hardly worth a feat.

There are better alternatives to Spring Attack, with lower opportunity costs (less prereqs), but at least it gives you options.

('though, spending three feats is not worth it, and the feat can be kinda weak regardless. Still, it can be fun, and it has its space in certain non-ToB builds that don't dip Lion Totem Barbarian. Feats should open up options instead of just providing a negligible number bonus.)

--

Also, if you are multiclassing between Rogue and Swashbuckler, you probably want the Daring Outlaw (Complete Scoundrel) feat. It lets you stack Rogue and Swashbuckler levels for Sneak Attack, Grace, and Dodge Bonuses.

[Eldest]

I'm very mediocre with optimization, but what I read over and over is for percision damage, you want many many attacks, which would mean dual wielding weapons. And a better feat than weapon focus (+1 to attack) would be weapon finesse (+dex to attack). Also, if you are literally multiclassing the rouge and swashbuckler classes, get the feat daring outlaw.

[Lictor of Thrax]

Well damn, first off, I wish I could have found that rogue guide earlier. I've looked all over the place for a quality rogue guide and couldn't find squat (I found one and it was very mediocre in my opinion).

I guess I should have clarified that I'm playing a homebrew class that combines that rogue and swashbuckler and turns it into a proper strong tier 3 class. I get weapon finesse as a class feature and daring outlaw is worthless to me (the custom class is actually called Daring Outlaw, can be found on this board).

I guess what I'm really curious about, then is, what people think some of the most important combat feats there are for a rogue. He's a two-weapon fighter and Craven will definitely be on the menu . . . any suggestions for other "must have" feats or feat trees? That's where I struggle the most, I worry that I'll miss out on a dominant feat by not having the pre-reqs.

[Darrin]

So I'm playing a swashbuckler/rogue type character who's going to be our primary striker/damage dealer and I'm at a point where I can choose dodge, to eventually get to the spring attack feats but I haven't taken weapon focus yet, either.


Well, we can help you by taking Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and Weapon Focus off of your list. These are horrible feats, particularly for TWF fighters. Spring Attack locks you into one attack per round, which kills your damage output. If you need to move + full attack + move, take Travel Devotion. And while I sympathize with trying to offset the -2 TWF penalty with Weapon Focus, you've got full BAB so you can afford the -2, and there are plenty of other ways to buff your attack bonus (+Dex/Str items, etc.).



I guess what I'm really curious about, then is, what people think some of the most important combat feats there are for a rogue. He's a two-weapon fighter and Craven will definitely be on the menu . . . any suggestions for other "must have" feats or feat trees? That's where I struggle the most, I worry that I'll miss out on a dominant feat by not having the pre-reqs.

Craven and Staggering Strike (CAdv) are probably the most important. With full BAB, Staggering Strike can be taken at level 6, although that level's a bit of a bottleneck for a bunch of nice feats. I'd recommend:

1) TWF, Human -> Travel Devotion
3) Craven
6) Staggering Strike
9) Combat Reflexes
12) ImpTWF (use Gloves of the Balanced Hand up to here)
15) Dual Hit (MiniHB) or Robilar's Gambit (PHBII)
18) GrTWF

Some additional ways to get more attacks:

Snap Kick (Tome of Battle). Requires Improved Unarmed Strike, but can be used on any attack action, including a Standard Action attack and AoOs. And while the -2 penalty on all your attacks may not look all that appetizing on a TWF chassis, there's an important quirk to the TWF rules: TWF penalties only apply to your primary and off-hand attacks, and your Snap Kick unarmed strike is generally neither.

Planar Touchstone -> Oxyrhynchus. Requires 8 ranks of Knowledge: the Planes, which you don't have as a class skill, but boyhowdy you've got a metric buttload of skill points. If you need it as a class skill, you can get it via Knowledge Devotion, which doubles as another way to buff up your damage output (and you've got the skill points to do it justice). By linking to Oxyrhynchus' base ability (which does not require actually visiting the site), you get an extra attack at -5 BAB whenever 1) your opponent is denied his Dex bonus (flat-footed, blinded, invisible/hidden attacker, etc.) and 2) you can make multiple attacks that round. Due to the really quirky wording of 2), this means if you can make two attacks on a standard action (such as via Snap Kick), you can get a third attack.

You can also take feats as Special Abilities, although the requirements on what qualifies are a bit wonky (Luck, Ambush, anything that grants a skill bonus or requires skill ranks). This would work for Planar Touchstone and could also help with the Blind-Fight -> Mage Slayer -> Pierce Magical Concealment combo (Mage Slayer requires 2 ranks of Spellcraft, a trivial investment). If you go this route, then I'd suggest:

9) Blind-Fight
10) Special Ability: Crippling Strike
12) Special Ability: Mage Slayer, Feat: Pierce Magical Concealment
14) Special Ability: Planar Touchstone -> Oxyrhynchus
15) ImpTWF
18) GrTWF

Get your hands on a Ring of Blinking (27000 GP, DMG) and you are Effing Winning:

3 to 4 iterative attacks, 1 to 2 off-hand attacks, Oxyrhynchus attack at -5 BAB, you're considered an invisible attacker so everything qualifies for sneak attack + Craven + Int bonus, all your hits do 2 points of Str damage, every hit incurs a Fort save vs. staggered with your damage is the DC (which prevents your opponent from responding with a full attack), and a 20% miss chance if your opponent does manage to hit back.

If Tome of Battle is available, working in Shadow Blade might be worth considering. There isn't a lot of room to shoehorn in Martial Study -> Martial Stance -> Shadow Blade, but a two-level SwordSage dip after ECL 6 would give you:

* Weapon Focus with Shadow Hand weapons
* Burning Blade, Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Cloak of Deception, Mountain Hammer, Flashing Sun, Zephyr Dance
* Island of Blades stance (any adjacent ally counts as flanking)
* Assassin's Stance (+2d6 sneak attack damage)
* Wis bonus to AC while in light armor

Finish off with:
9) Shadow Blade
12) Adaptive Style
15) ImpTWF
18) GrTWF