Belkar's Prophecy and Vaarsuvius' Fate

[Turgon9357]

I begin by acknowledging that this question/theory has probably already been posed before. However, recent events may be cause enough for (re)examination.

To begin:
During the Oracle's Prophecy for Belkar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html), Belkar asks if he will cause the death of any of the following: Miko, Miko's horse, Roy, Vaarsuvius, or the Oracle.

Now jump to when Haley and Belkar revisited (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html) the Oracle. The Oracle addresses how Belkar "caused the death" of Roy, Miko, and Miko's horse. He was about to explain Vaarsuvius' "death", but Belkar cut him off. Belkar then proceeded to stab the Oracle.

For those keeping score, that's 4 out of 5. But he never said that Belkar wouldn't kill Vaarsuvius, he just never was given a chance to explain.

Currently, Belkar is with Roy, and Vaarsuvius is in the Semi-Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0802.html) with Yuk Yuk the kobold. Vaarsuvius will likely find a way back, or the Order will find a way to bring him/her back, and the Kobold will probably try to tag a ride (I'm kind of fuzzy on the rules here). Given Belkar's dislike (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0063.html) of kobolds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0358.html), and even with his abysmal spot score he would probably notice the crossbows Yukyuk uses and would remember the bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0807.html) in Mr. Scruffy, Belkar will probably kill Yukyuk on the spot and turn him into a hat. It seems reasonable to assume that Belkar will also be very upset with Vaarsuvius about being with the kobold and could get violent. Perhaps this would be where Belkar "causes the death" of Vaarsuvius, either directly, i.e., stabbing him/her, or indirectly, like backing him/her off a balcony or something. It would make sense if, after this, the Order put Belkar down for good, fulfilling this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html) prophecy.

Under ordinary circumstances, this wouldn't be much of a problem. The Order could drum up the diamonds it needs (and with Tarquin still on friendly terms with the Order, this could be a non-issue). However, Vaarsuvius' soul isn't exactly his/her own anymore. As part of the deal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html) with the UFCC, the three fiends involved own Vaarsuvius' soul for a fixed amount of time, rending Vaarsuvius' "unraisable" for the period of ownership. Since none of the Order knows about the deal (except for Blackwing, but no one thinks he's real), they will not know that Vaarsuvius' soul won't be available for a short time. They'd be very confused when Vaarsuvius didn't return on the first few attempts at raising him/her.

Any thoughts?

[raymundo]

Goint into Data-mode, "or" makes the whole statement true if at least one of the statements it is composed of is true. So it is a perfectly correct prophecy if Belkar would not cause V's death at all.

And that is what will happen, I think. Would love to see Belkar switching V to "love" again, since the later one is single now.

[Gift Jeraff]

Since the Oracle's explanation were getting increasingly stretched, one idea suggested is:

-Belkar started the chase with Miko.
-The chase led to V saving Belkar's life.
-V believes "The Event" happened because s/he saved Belkar's life.
-Because of "The Event," V started his/her prank war with Belkar.
-V believes that the prank war was one of the reasons s/he failed to keep the party together (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0504.html), thus severely damaging his/her ego.
-V's damaged ego was one of the main reasons s/he left the fleet.
-V's separation allowed the ancient black dragon to attack.
-The dragon's attack and threat allowed for the IFCC to make their deal with V.
-Darth V attacked Xykon and failed; Xykon's lecture caused V to realize that there is more to power than just raw arcane spells.
-This new outlook could be considered the metaphorical death of the old Vaarsuvius.

Thus, Belkar has already "caused the death of" the elf.

[Turgon9357]

Goint into Data-mode, "or" makes the whole statement true if at least one of the statements it is composed of is true. So it is a perfectly correct prophecy if Belkar would not cause V's death at all.

Very true. There is nothing that really requires Belkar to cause the death of V. But there's no reason why Belkar couldn't, either. It looked like the Oracle was about to explain why V wasn't dead (yet?), but Belkar cut him off before he could explain. It would certainly make the prophecy about 50 times cooler if the "Yes" answer applied to all persons listed, even if in some word-twisting way.

[ThePhantasm]

V won't die before the IFCC controls her.

Now maybe they gain control of her, Belkar kills her, and she kills Belkar as well. I could see that happening. But I don't see Belkar stabbing her because she defeated the kobold and he didn't.

[Palthera]

I was under the impression that the Oracle was just trying to distract Belkar from the real result of the prophecy ie, that Belkar was going to cause the death of the Oracle by stabbing him. Hence why he says he "wasn't really buying those theories either""wasn't really buying those theories either" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html)

[Holy_Knight]

Now maybe they gain control of her, Belkar kills her, and she kills Belkar as well. I could see that happening. But I don't see Belkar stabbing her because she defeated the kobold and he didn't.
I've been thinking something like this as well. The Oracle could have even been about to say "As for the elf, he'll actually cause your death!" It would be interesting if V is forced to kill Belkar as part of furthering/protecting the IFCC's goals somehow.

[Morty]

The only thing that the Oracle would have said before Belkar killed him would have been an even more far-fetched, improbable "explanation" as an attempt to avoid getting stabbed. Yes, it is technically possible that Belkar will kill V. It's also possible he'll kill Tarquin, Nale, Xykon, Redcloak or any other character in the story, but only because there's no evidence that he won't.

[ORione]

Surely if the Oracle had a plausible story of Belkar killing Vaarsuvius, he would have mentioned that before the ridiculous stories with Roy, Miko, and Windstriker. He might not have gotten stabbed then.

[Turgon9357]

The only thing that the Oracle would have said before Belkar killed him would have been an even more far-fetched, improbable "explanation" as an attempt to avoid getting stabbed. Yes, it is technically possible that Belkar will kill V. It's also possible he'll kill Tarquin, Nale, Xykon, Redcloak or any other character in the story, but only because there's no evidence that he won't.

I doubt that the Giant would pointlessly throw someone into the prophecy if nothing was to become of it. Although Belkar has hated V from the get go, it seems like kind of a waste to have at least something for all the others and for nothing to become of V. I might be grasping at straws here, but like Julio Scoundrel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html) said, "Pretty good, considering we wouldn't be having this scene if it didn't forward the plot in some way" (it makes sense in context). The Giant has been known to think about these things YEARS in advance.

[Morty]

There isn't a "something" for others. The Oracle makes up several false fulfillments of his prophecy, each of them less plausible than the others - Roy and Miko did not die as a result of Belkar's actions and Windstriker didn't die at all. None of those "explanations" have had any significance to the story whastoever either. So no offense, but I think you really are grasping at straws.


Surely if the Oracle had a plausible story of Belkar killing Vaarsuvius, he would have mentioned that before the ridiculous stories with Roy, Miko, and Windstriker. He might not have gotten stabbed then.

This a very good point, too. Each explanation was more far-fetched than the previous ones, so I doubt a prophecy coming after the Windstriker one would have any connection to reality.

[Ashadar]

Sign me up for the camp with "As for the elf, he will actually cause YOUR death." . It just has that "plausible theory" ring to it. Kinda like that theory about the IFCC lying to V about the second alternative in order to make her feel guilty and not tell the OOTS about her coordinate soul selling misadventures, Durkon returning to his homeland dead, brought in by the OOTS, and raised there for the final battle to bring down death and destruction, Ian being Haley's father, and Belkar saving Enor and Ganji because of the "like dueling your own puppy" comment. Oh wait. Those last two already happened.

[Turgon9357]

So no offense, but I think you really are grasping at straws.

None taken. I still stand by my view that Vaarsuvius' presence in Belkar's prophecy will have some significance, but I see what you mean. I'm intrigued by the idea others on this thread have suggested about V killing Belkar, and not Belkar sort of technically causing the incidental death of V. Thank you for being courteous in your replies.

What about the other thing I mentioned? Do you think that V being under the IFCC's thumb will give the Order problems if they try to resurrect him/her?

[Sholos]

I don't see why anyone would think anybody but Roy is responsible for any of those (and future) deaths. He's the one who got everyone started, after all. [/tongue-in-cheek]

[Unisus]

V won't die before the IFCC controls her.

Now maybe they gain control of her, Belkar kills her, and she kills Belkar as well. I could see that happening. But I don't see Belkar stabbing her because she defeated the kobold and he didn't.

As i understand it, the IFCC gets control over V after death (interesting point here: for a LotR-elf this would mean never)

[ThePhantasm]

As i understand it, the IFCC gets control over V after death (interesting point here: for a LotR-elf this would mean never)

I think you understand it wrong. Nowhere was postmortem control stipulated.

[ORione]

As i understand it, the IFCC gets control over V after death (interesting point here: for a LotR-elf this would mean never)

That's what V said, but the IFCC never said one way or the other. Most people (as far as I can tell) think that the IFCC will control V while V is still alive, but we don't know for sure.

[ThePhantasm]

That's what V said, but the IFCC never said one way or the other. Most people (as far as I can tell) think that the IFCC will control V while V is still alive, but we don't know for sure.

Given that they seemed to think all would be for naught if Xykon killed V, I suspect their control only occurs while he is alive, just like the soul splice.

[Gift Jeraff]

Another possibility is that they do need V to be dead in order to control his/her soul, but if s/he died too soon then that would ruin everything (because they would have to either waste debt time or not reap V's soul, thus allowing V to deduce that they have some sort of ulterior motive). After all, ghosts can still cast spells.

EDIT: That might be the reason they still want V to become evil (i.e. Qarr killing V's main source of advice). In case s/he does die, s/he'll spend time in the Lower Planes no matter what, and V wouldn't be able to tell what was part of the deal and what was just part of his/her afterlife.

[ThePhantasm]

They seem pretty ambivalent to whether V goes evil or not. They said it was a 50/50 chance to begin with. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that's a big issue for their plans.

[FujinAkari]

EDIT: That might be the reason they still want V to become evil (i.e. Qarr killing V's main source of advice). In case s/he does die, s/he'll spend time in the Lower Planes no matter what, and V wouldn't be able to tell what was part of the deal and what was just part of his/her afterlife.

I interpreted this to be more because Blackwing was teaching V to be more introspective, examine situations rather than just flinging magic at them until he was successful...

A highly intellegent wizard who fully considers a situation is -extremely- difficult to manipulate, and the IFCC likely prefer to manipulate V to their ends and save the time they can directly control him for when it really matters.

Edit: I for one would think it hilarious if V learned Anti-magic sphere and cast it on himself just before the IFCC took over.

[Ellye]

The Oracle himself wasn't buying all those explanations. Belkar didn't cause the death of Roy, Miko, Miko's Horse, and likely won't cause the future death of V.

It was just "worth a shot" to see if those half-baked explanations could change the actual future that the oracle predicted - that Belkar would kill him.

[zimmerwald1915]

A highly intellegent wizard who fully considers a situation is -extremely- difficult to manipulate, and the IFCC likely prefer to manipulate V to their ends and save the time they can directly control him for when it really matters.
I'm not sure that's true. A highly intelligent wizard is very capable of considering the situation with which he's been presented. He is not necessarily capable of divining whether that situation makes sense, or whether the person presenting the situation to him is hiding something or spinning his presentation in some way. Both of those things are much more closely related to Wisdom than Intelligence.

[Alagaesian]

I figured Belkar would "cause the death of" V during the last story arc, and they both end up dead and in the same area of Hell. They help each other escape, so V is free to be resurrected, and Belkar goes on a huge killing spree against the demons/devils/daemons. I mean, he can't exactly die now, so he's able to cause some significant problems in the underworld. Everyone blames the IFCC for this blunder, thus discrediting their organization and pretty much removing them as a threat. They can't raise Belkar because he's effectively in his version of heaven: and endless whirlwind of stabbing with a permanent version of that battle-damaged look.

[Ancalagon]

Yeah, the Bloodwar would probably be a good ending for Belkar: Etearnal Damnation for him (and Karma gets its toll) but Heaven for him (and his fans will like that as well).

He could probably meet up with Xykon down there and for the absolute Dreamteam (well, from their point of view) of Slaughter and Destruction.

[Geordnet]

Hey, how about this? After Belkar (and possibly V) die(s), the IFCC puts Belkar in charge of V's body for exacly 44 minutes, 16 seconds?

[ThePhantasm]

Hey, how about this? After Belkar (and possibly V) die(s), the IFCC puts Belkar in charge of V's body for exacly 44 minutes, 16 seconds?

Exactly why would they do that?

[Geordnet]

More to the point: why wouln't they? :smalltongue:


Besides, I wasn't being serious... much..... :smallwink:

[FujinAkari]

More to the point: why wouln't they? :smalltongue:

Because it gains them absolutely nothing, and they have to be able to demonstrate that V's soul-domination was worth 25% of all black dragons to Tiamat... this does not accomplish that.

[Forikroder]

theres a problem though, Belkar knows killing the Kobold would be fine, but he knows killing V is suicide, as roy said it before "you kill elan (in this case V) we kill you"

and theres no way he can kill V, V will probably have (and perhaps has had) enough time to trance and probably still had some left over spells from his fight with Z so would be able to stop Belkar

[Bulldog Psion]

"...and as for the elf, he's going to kill you."

That seems a lot more plausible than Belkar killing V.

[Ron Miel]

Blackwing & Mr Scruffy started off as enemies, like their masters. But a few strips ago, Blackwing saved Mr Scruffy's life.

This is obvious foreshadowing. V and Belkar are destined to put aside their enmity and become lovers.

Then when Belkar dies, V shall pine away until she too dies.

And in that way, Belkar shall cause her death. By Oracle logic.

[Keinnicht]

Yeah, that or:

-Yuk Yuk kills V, against all odds.
-Yuk Yuk would not have been a member of the Linear Guild had Yik Yik and Yok Yok not been killed. By Belkar.

[Venetian Mask]

Isn't it obvious how Belkar'll die by now? Belkar will find out that the kobold harmed his cat, follow the kobold to the Plane and drown in a lake of Ranch Dressing. :smallamused:

[yingxuy]

This may be the reason, they still want to be evil V (V is Qarr kill the main source of advice). If S / he is not dead, he / she will spend the time the plane no matter what.

[GCI-Flynn]

Sooooo... found this thread doing a google search in light of the recent developments of the comic, and through my re-reading the series as a result of boredom and coming across the Oracle's encounters with Belkar.

As mentioned before, the Oracle never did give the explanation for how Belkar killed/will kill V, but me thinks that this prophecy will soon be coming to fruition, given how we don't know where V is in the dungeon, and Belkar will likely still be dominated when the Hold Person wears off... perhaps he'll kill V while under domination?