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View Full Version : [PF] Trying to find a way to a good morale system



harpy
2011-10-13, 09:40 AM
AD&D had a morale system. Each creature had a morale rating; which sadly was not included in the actual creatures stat block, but instead had to be calculated before hand or on the fly. There were also a number of circumstantial modifiers, such as being outnumbered, which could further modify the morale rating. There was ANOTHER set of modifiers that affected not the rating, but the morale roll.

Finally, there were guidelines on when to make morale checks. For players used to every creature in the fantasy world fighting to the death, they'd be quite surprised to see that just losing a lot of hit points, or just having one opponent drop might be all that is needed to see the enemy scatter. It is realistic, but does throw off the conception of 3.x combat.

Once all of that was established then there was the roll itself. It was a percentile roll and had degrees of failure that delivered the results. If you failed by up to 25% of your rating (percent of a percent... I've already lost almost everyone) you just fell back fighting. If it was 26 to 50% then you ran and fled, and then finally if it was 51% or less of your rating then you'd surrender. Players never made these rolls for their character's, just the baddies.

I want to try out morale in Pathfinder, and AD&D (or more specifically the OGL version OSRIC) is a good base layer to see what the dynamics of morale are about. However two big design hurdles need to be overcome.

First, you have to simplify the system. Even back in the day when we did use morale, it was a stripped down version used at the DM's discretion, such as when fighting mobs of weak willed opponents, such as goblins.

Do you make a new sub-system, or do you integrate it into existing systems, such as making a Will save? How to you modify for the wide array of psychologies in the game, such as constructs which would never make morale checks? How do you deal with battle hardened vets who have a poor will save if you go that route?

There are a wide range of factors to try and distill down into something that is easy to monitor. Plus you need to have nice clear conditions in which a morale check is made. When x% of hit points are gone for an individual? For a group when one of their number drops? Where is the fine line between abstraction for ease of play, but accounting for enough of the broad factors that it doesn't feel artificial?

Pathfinder does already possesses in a very fragmented way a morale system with the condition effects of shaken, fear, and panicked. Shaken can be done by basically anyone with a intimidate check, but the fear and panic conditions can only be triggered in a very specific and fantastical fashions, something that any common person has no access to. You can be a big brutish warrior and spend all day intimidating someone, but ultimately you're only going to be able to make the target slightly uncomfortable and never actually drive them away or make them cower. A morale system would intentionally dismantle this assumption and make it possible for a common warrior, under the right conditions, make people bow down and surrender.

The second hurdle is how does this affect the CR system? If you can “win” an encounter by just performing a shock and awe alpha strike in the opening round, triggering the opponents to all scatter, then this makes opponents potentially more brittle and thus the CR system needs some kind of adjustment.

AD&D got away with this because there were other core assumptions at work, such as wandering monsters every 30 minutes, and a great deal of experience points being earned for gaining treasure. Thus, time was of the essence and getting past monsters quickly was more important than outright defeating them. With Pathfinder both of these assumptions are not in any significant way stressed. Instead the emphasis with experience points is in defeating the CR specific encounter.

You can bring back an older system of rewards, but that is a whole other sub-system of math that would need to be evaluated. You could bring back wandering monsters, but it might not fit with the vision of a campaign, and the time it takes to resolve combat is longer, and thus it might not be practical to start grinding through encounters... not unless you have a morale system that can speed them up.

Some basic alterations to the CR system might be to simply up the scale by a point or two. Give more of a pool of points to construct an encounter, and thus increase either the number or potency of the opposition, but in turn now there is a mechanism to drive them off without going through all of their normal defenses. If certain creatures are immune or highly resistant to morale then their particular CR value would need to be adjusted to fit this new scale. That might be tedious to go through the catalog, though the number of creatures like that would likely be small in number compared to the overall number of creatures in the system.

Overall, the challenge is finding an easy and reliable morale check and being able to calculate how much of an impact this has on the overall CR.

One possible approach:

Say one trigger is when an opponent falls then any other opponents that can perceive the fallen comrade need to make a check. It's clean and simple and draws upon hits points being a rating that gives a binary “on or off” status to a creature. When a creature goes down it even has a measurable effect on the remaining CR of the encounter.

If you have a CR 2 encounter (600xp worth of creatures) with four goblins, then when two goblins fall unconscious the encounter is in some murky way becoming a CR 1 (400xp worth) encounter from that point out, assuming the party hasn't really drained much of their resources to get those two goblins to drop. With a morale system where a check were made and the final two goblins flee, then in a sense (it is more complicated and murky) the encounter was more of a CR 1 encounter to begin with.

If you wanted to make an adjustment with morale in play; then if you upped the APL rating by one, and thus upping the CR by one, then the party would be facing 5 or 6 goblins (depends on how strict you want to be with rounding xp values) which helps bolster reducing the effect of dropping the goblins and could also create adjustments in terms of when the trigger comes into effect, or the morale rating itself.

Another element that might help keep a break on the system is to use the existing conditions as a break mechanism. First failed check causes the shaken condition only to an individual, the second check causes fear in the individual and triggers a shaken check for the rest of the group. A third check causes panic. What is good about this is that it slows down the overall effect, but the downside is a lot of individual checks which can also slow down play via dice rolls and keep track of conditions. For ease of play it would be preferable if there was a more global check for the encounter as a whole, rather than at a individual level.

Larpus
2011-10-13, 10:26 AM
Well, the way I'd go around it is base it on BAB or maybe Fort rather than Will, since it's something that battle-hardened warriors should be considerably better at, not frail frilly casters.

Then there would be some necessary modifiers, for example, a LG knight will most probably fight to his last breath to defend the city under attack, so he gets a massive bonus on the check (or simply bypasses it), while the CN mercenary might not be that inclined and quite likely to run away once he's convinced the chances of victory (or rather, his chances of survival) are getting closer to 0.

To put it simply, characters get bonuses or penalties depending on their motivations to be there, a mercenary who boasts constantly that he always "gets the job done" is much less likely to flee than one who just goes wherever the money is.

People who advise their comrades beforehand that going to battle is a bad idea might be likely to leave the scene if they weren't comrades for long enough (or this isn't the first time such a thing happens).

If a group of whatever is trapped with no other apparent way than fight (such as actually no way to get away or they're simply protecting something too important), they'll fight to their deaths instead of pathetically trying to get away while their enemies take them down one by one. And so on.

But regarding CR, the way I see it, it's unchanged.

Sure, the goblins fled and the encounter was actually a CR2 encounter, however, when going to battle it was still a CR4, so even if not for a single round, the players were against a CR4 battle and, if rounds lapsed between that and the scattering of foes, they received damage as if it were indeed CR4. Even though the players didn't fell all the enemies, they did, in fact, resolve a CR4 encounter.

Making the CR drop results in less rewards for the players (let alone the loot the ones fleeing might've had), so it will only make your players want to pursue and murder everything in sight. Also, such reasoning is quite akin to the thinking of "the encounter is only resolved if everything is killed", where a captured criminal wields no experience.

Mustard
2011-10-13, 12:56 PM
I think I'd avoid having a hard-numbers morale system. For each encounter, determine an appropriate battle condition for enemies to flee, or call for backup, or maybe even change sides (ooh, that last one would be interesting, but I bet the PCs would kill the turncloak anyway). I think this is appropriate because conditions affect morale just as much as the nature of a creature. You'd probably have the sense to deviate from the system for exceptional situations, but I am basically recommending that all situations be tailored as exceptions.

But since you're not asking to be talked out of a morale system (and let's face it, sometimes you just don't care about whether group of goblins #12 would fight to the death, or what their motivations are in general), I'll address that. I'll say "morale" without fear that it'll be confused with "morale bonuses". Though it may be a good idea to coin a new term "Combat Morale". Which I won't use, because I already wrote all this before I came back to this paragraph :smalltongue:.

Issue to Address 1: When should an enemy run away, by default? Determine a creature's morale rating based on a formula similar to the following: 10 + WIS mod + Will save bonuses specific to fear effects + CR - APL - INT mod - 2 * number of allies that fell that fight. Perhaps +1 for each magic item that is has usable for combat purposes, up to 4, let's say. Something like that. If a d20 roll results above that number, it stays to fight. I haven't done any theory craft on this, so it may be a terrible idea.

But its spirit is something I like: that business with the WIS and fear bonuses basically means "will save minus base"; CR - APL gives stronger enemies a little more courage. Use "encounter CR" (AFAIK PF doesn't use "EL" like D&D does, and even then it's just a nit-picky detail); the INT mod helps more intelligent enemies make rational decisions. Anyway, beat this formula into submission, and make it your own! Make it a "rule" that if you don't like the morale die roll, it doesn't happen in this case. That way you don't feel arbitrary -- it's right there, explicit, in the rule!

I still think every encounter should be treated as an exception. Use a formula only when it doesn't really matter, you're in an arbitrary mood perhaps, or if things need to be made interesting through randomness. Also, saying this means we don't have to try to shoehorn constructs into the equation!

Issue to Address 2: CR system. So the statistical likelihood is that encounters will tend to be easier, as some percentage of encounters will have runners. One idea to solve this is that a natural 1 on a morale check means that it'll flee (if a 1 fails), but will bring back some reinforcements. The tougher question is what kind of reinforcements? Take the XP budget from the original encounter, divide by 4 (I seem to like that number), and cost out reinforcements per the CR/XP system. That's an annoying amount of work, though. I guess it's not too bad if you're good at it (I'm not). Reinforcements won't flee. Unfortunately, that just gives more XP to the PCs. So, to compensate, require more XP to level. I believe there's no way around that, unfortunately, or I am just drawing a blank right now.

I can probably go on, but I have things to attend to! I hope this is helpful in at least some mildly significant way.

EDIT: Yes, I should go on, juuuust a little bit. Anyway, other quick things to note:

There has got to be a better way to maintain difficulty in spite of runners. I think playtesting or at least simulation is necessary before addressing that fully.

These morale rolls could also be used for deciding when to change tactics, or when to use potions or other healing. That way, not every failed morale check results in a free defeated foe. This helps offset the thing I just mentioned in the previous paragraph, but may not be enough.

Slipperychicken
2011-10-13, 02:21 PM
Off the top of my head, I imagine it going down in several ways, although more are possible, depending on how much realism/math you want.

1) Eyeball it, sort of like you have to when playing Total War. Ask "would a reasonable person keep fighting under these circumstances?" have them react accordingly.


2) Will saves, modified by conditions (and possibly BAB to reflect training), triggered at appropriate intervals. Make a table of "Condition / save modifier" with things like "Outnumbered 2-1/ -4", "Comrades holding strong/ +2", "nearby explosion/ -4", "allies fleeing/ -2", "Awesome commander/ +4". Successful saves yield (capped) bonuses on tohit/AC/damage, while failed saves reduce those bonuses, eventually culminating in Shaken and even Frightened (routing) conditions. Surrender will probably be Cowering for mechanical purposes. Also, the same save would apply to larger numbers of combatants, increasing with battle size.


3) Some frighteningly complex/realistic calculation like in AD&D, resulting in much headache when you just want to toss fireballs at goblins.

hiryuu
2011-10-13, 02:35 PM
This is interesting, but it does introduce a little too much math headache. I know that when I was running AD&D regularly, I never used morale rolls, I just used a good eyeball and placed certain conditions under which the enemy will rout. Which I still do, oddly enough.

Remember that the CR system and D&D's experience charts doesn't explicitly give experience points for killing everything. It most specifically does not do that. It gives experience points for overcoming the encounter. If the PCs scrape through and succeed in the encounter's goal, they get experience points, regardless of whether there's a pile of bodies or not.

Zaq
2011-10-13, 03:26 PM
One thing that I will mention is that in AD&D, at least by the book*, you often fought way more critters than 3.5 is comfortable sending you against. Look at some of the "number appearing" values in the statblocks. Flipping literally at random through the AD&D Monster Manual:

Carrion Crawler: 1-6
Balor: 1-3 or 1-6
Doppleganger: 3-12
Dwarf: 40-400
Elephant: 1-20 ("Asiatic"), 1-12 ("Loxodont")
Goblin: 40-400
Harpy: 2-12
Ogre: 2-20
Pixie: 5-20
Unicorn: 2-5
Giant Wasp: 1-20
Wight: 2-16

Assuming that we use the obvious die rolls to determine the number, I don't think 3.5 expects you to generally go up against an average of 12 pixies at once, you know? Even if, in some cases, you're not supposed to fight all of them at once ("Wandering monster check! 400 goblins rush into the room. Let me roll a surprise check . . . hey, looks like you didn't seem them coming!"), I think my point has been made: enemies running off is a lot different when you're fighting 2-12 harpies instead of, say, one or two.

*Disclaimer: I've never played AD&D, but I have several of the monster books, and I'm just going off what I've seen there.

ericgrau
2011-10-13, 03:30 PM
I'm with Mustard. Fighting to the death is kind of dumb, but the way to fix it is for the DM to figure out appropriate monster responses ahead of time. Most fights should end with fleeing monsters that way, and if monsters start dropping like flies when PCs aren't, it should happen much sooner than if it's a close fight.

Zaq
2011-10-13, 03:38 PM
Another thing: If you want players to actually let fleeing enemies flee (assuming it's not foolish to do so . . . if they're obviously going to get reinforcements and warn the encampment of your position, for instance) instead of going into "KILL IT FOR POINTS" mode, make sure that looting the bodies is not the primary way of getting treasure. You'd get just as much XP from a fleeing foe as from a slain foe, but if he keeps his magic shinies with him while running away (and you really expected them to become YOUR magic shinies), well . . . you'll see a lot of players get even more bloodthirsty than they might be otherwise.

Personally, I'd love to play in a game in which most foes didn't want to fight to the death, and for the most part, I think my characters would respect that . . . but if you let most players figure out that dead goblin = XP + loot while running goblin = XP + no loot, that could be bad.