5' Step Question

[noparlpf]

First of all; am I right in thinking it possible to, during a full attack, attack more than one creature?
Second; if so, is it possible to attack one creature, five-foot step, and then conclude the full attack against another creature?

[ranger557]

Yes, yes you can sir, you are correct

[Socratov]

correct, though you can only 5'step once per round.

[Zherog]

Not only can you attack more than one creature when you have multiple attacks, you don't even need to decide who/what to attack until right before you roll the dice. If your first attack unexpectedly drops creature A, you can direct your second attack against creature B - even though you originally planned to use both attacks against A.

[noparlpf]

Cool, so that is how it works. Thanks!

[missmvicious]

Careful though; doing so uses up your move action, and I'm pretty sure you can't use feats like Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Cleave, or Great Cleave in conjunction with that, so you'll lose any bonuses you'd get to attack or damage from any of those.

Still, if you're just trying to clear out a room full of Dire Rats, and your DEX is through the roof, then make a full round attack, adjust, and enjoy the bloodbath. :)

[Zherog]

Careful though; doing so uses up your move action, and I'm pretty sure you can't use feats like Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Cleave, or Great Cleave in conjunction with that, so you'll lose any bonuses you'd get to attack or damage from any of those.

I'm not sure I understand. What uses up a move action?

[Tar Palantir]

Careful though; doing so uses up your move action, and I'm pretty sure you can't use feats like Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Cleave, or Great Cleave in conjunction with that, so you'll lose any bonuses you'd get to attack or damage from any of those.

Still, if you're just trying to clear out a room full of Dire Rats, and your DEX is through the roof, then make a full round attack, adjust, and enjoy the bloodbath. :)

Technically taking a 5 foot step doesn't use up your move action, you just can't take move or charge. You could still, say, draw a weapon or stand from prone. Under the 'can't move' restriction, you can't spring attack, but you can use any of those other feats and still 5 foot step (though you can't 5 foot between attacks with Whirlwind, as they all happen at once, but that's neither here nor there).

[missmvicious]

What Tar Palantir said.

I just meant that with all the penalties you take on a multi-attack round, you increase your likelihood of your sword glancing off their AC with each swing. Hence, you increase the likelihood of being surrounded by monsters at the end of your turn with no moves left to get out of there, or at least adjust to a more defensible location.

I prefer Cleave, Great Cleave, Whirlwind Attack, or Spring Attack for situations where I'm facing overwhelming hordes of one-hit-one-kill enemies, but I tend to make glass cannons, so that effects my way of thinking a lot. I like being able to either kill everything that threatens me (the first three), or be able to get out of the way of danger (spring attack) if I can't.

[KillianHawkeye]

Taking a 5-foot step has no impact on your ability to use Cleave/Great Cleave or Whirlwind Attack.

[Flickerdart]

Taking a 5-foot step has no impact on your ability to use Cleave/Great Cleave or Whirlwind Attack.
Wrong. Cleave specifically has a clause that you may not take 5ft steps before Cleaving, and Great Cleave does not overrule it. You must take Frenzied Berserker levels if you wish to Cleave and 5ft step.

[skycycle blues]

I think that clause on Cleave is supposed to mean that you can't take a 5 ft step to make your cleave attack, not that if you take a 5 ft step into a square from which you threaten multiple things that if you drop the first, then you can't cleave the next.

[Zherog]

Sure, but you can still 5' step between attacks as normal. You just can't 5' step on the attack granted by Cleave.

[missmvicious]

Yeah, but the point is, with Cleave, you don't take the Full Attack penalties you'd normally take. It increases the likelihood that you will kill all of your assailants.

In my first campaign, my friend played a Dwarven Fighter who was crited Nat 20 comfirm Nat 20. Based on a house rule, doing that meant that his HP was instantly reduced to 0 and he fell prone. He reminded me that, since I was a CG Cleric, I could spontaneously cast Cure spells, so I cast Cure Minor Wounds (best I had at the time); he stood up, and on his next turn, proceeded to Cleave the bajeezus out of those ravenous house cats... yes house cats flattened our tank. But that's not the point!

The point is, thanks to Cleave, he didn't have to take any attack penalties when he was surrounded on all sides by deadly... kitties, which by the way, are ridiculously hard to hit, so every little attack advantage helps.

[Flickerdart]

...attack penalties? What attack penalties?

[Zherog]

Well, first... I'll echo Flickerdart - what attack penalites.

Second... it's really hard to argue about how things work as written when the basis of your argument is a Very Bad Houserule(tm).

[ericgrau]

She probably means the penalty on secondary attacks, vs. cleaving on your primary. Doesn't help if you cleave on your secondary though, or I guess it's still better than your tertiary.

[missmvicious]

She probably means the penalty on secondary attacks, vs. cleaving on your primary. Doesn't help if you cleave on your secondary though, or I guess it's still better than your tertiary.

Bingo...

The extra attack with Cleave is at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. (pg. 92, PH)

To use a full round attack, you need either 2 weapons, a double weapon, or multiple attacks in your round already included.

2-Weapon Fighting comes with pretty big penalties, even if you take the 2-Weapon Fighting Feat. You can reduce this by using a light weapon in your off-hand or by using a double weapon, but you still take penalties in the attack. Even your best (base race) melee combatants don't get full round attacks with a single weapon until they reach 6th level, but you can get Cleave pretty early on, and use that with your single weapon. It's just more bang for your buck IMHO.

[Yuki Akuma]

You are aware that Cleave only gives you an extra attack when you drop something, right?

You're also aware that if you have iterative attacks, you don't take a penalty on your first attack, right?

I mean, some people do actually play at levels higher than 5.

(It's also incredibly easy to get extra attacks, which you can only use when you take a full attack. Incredibly easy. I've seen builds with twenty attacks per round, although that's a little on the TO side.)

[KillianHawkeye]

Well in my experience, actually getting a use out of Cleave is pretty rare unless your DM likes swarming you with a lot of weak creatures. That's why I don't consider it to be a factor in my basic attack strategy. It's a bonus when it does happen, but I'd rather make extra attacks every round than hope that the monsters only take one hit to kill.

[BillyBobJoe]

Well in my experience, actually getting a use out of Cleave is pretty rare unless your DM likes swarming you with a lot of weak creatures. That's why I don't consider it to be a factor in my basic attack strategy. It's a bonus when it does happen, but I'd rather make extra attacks every round than hope that the monsters only take one hit to kill.

You mean Great Cleave, right?

[missmvicious]

You are aware that Cleave only gives you an extra attack when you drop something, right?

You're also aware that if you have iterative attacks, you don't take a penalty on your first attack, right?

I mean, some people do actually play at levels higher than 5.

(It's also incredibly easy to get extra attacks, which you can only use when you take a full attack. Incredibly easy. I've seen builds with twenty attacks per round, although that's a little on the TO side.)

Yes, I know that Cleave only gives you an extra attack when you drop something, but you don't have to use it until after your first attack. If you don't drop the opponent, then just use your full attack to try to finish your opponent off, but if you kill your opponent, why trade a dime for eight cents on a full round attack when Cleave gives you the extra "umph" to increase your likelihood of getting a second kill? Plus it doesn't count as a full attack, so you can move afterwards to a more advantageous spot after cleaning up where you were.

And yeah, I suppose this whole discussion could be dropped if we knew what level the OP was in this scenario, but that's neither here nor there. A full attack round has reduced bonuses for each round. Cleave, Great Cleave and Whirlwind Attack don't. That was sort of my point. If you're going to surround yourself with enemies, get the most bang for your buck and then move away from the pile of bodies so you can get to some concealment, cover, or what-have-you that will give you an advantage to your next attack or keep you protected while you wait for your next turn.

As far as it being easy to get extra attacks in a round... that's a DM thing. I've played with a lot of DMs who are stingy with the XP, GP, and magic item rewards. My party once defeated an army of Drider and some kind of giant ethereal spider at level 3 and didn't even get enough XP to level up. Our GP reward: 70 PP. Sucked. One of our friends died in that campaign, and the rest of us barely got out of there with our lives. Also, I have never been awarded a magic item or artifact in any campaign I've played... ever.

So count yourself lucky that you play for generous (or at least fair) DMs. But leveling up quickly or getting special treats from DMs that would give me full attack rounds? Not happenin... so it's not really a part of how I strategize.

[Zherog]

Again, you're using house rules (limited XP and limited gold) to make an argument that just doesn't hold up.

Also, the bonus attack from Cleave isn't mutually exclusive with iterative attacks. There's no reason you can't use both.

[missmvicious]

Again, you're using house rules (limited XP and limited gold) to make an argument that just doesn't hold up.

Also, the bonus attack from Cleave isn't mutually exclusive with iterative attacks. There's no reason you can't use both.

Not really. I'm using info on feats and special attacks that can be found in the Player's Handbook v3.5.

I came up with the strategy because of my experiences in campaigns, but the strategy is based on standard rules and it works.

OP wanted to know if you can make a 5' adjustment in the middle of using a full-round attack. I said "yes" but offered a warning that if you do, you can't use other combat feats that are more effective at getting kills. I offered a variety of different strategies which gives the PC the opportunity to make multiple attacks in a round with a higher chance of connecting if you don't make the 5' adjustment. It was just a suggestion. Ultimately, reducing the number of enemies on the combat map is more important than making 5' adjustments in between swings, unless the only way to get to your next opponent is to make a 5' adjustment. I think that with strategic use of your terrain and your move action you can make a bloody mess, and move into position to flank or even surprise a new opponent. Granted, I sound a bit like a ranger or rogue here (and I do prefer their fighting styles on the occasion that I play non-spellcasters) but any melee fighter type can use terrain, flanking, and surprise to their advantage if they think about it and use cooperative strategy.

[Zherog]

OP wanted to know if you can make a 5' adjustment in the middle of using a full-round attack. I said "yes" but offered a warning that if you do, you can't use other combat feats that are more effective at getting kills.

Right. But that's wrong. You can use Cleave. You can use Great Cleave. Full attack and Cleave/Great Cleave aren't mutually exclusive.


I offered a variety of different strategies which gives the PC the opportunity to make multiple attacks in a round with a higher chance of connecting if you don't make the 5' adjustment.

The 5' step has no bearing on whether or not iterative attacks or Cleave attacks have a higher chance of hitting.


It was just a suggestion. Ultimately, reducing the number of enemies on the combat map is more important than making 5' adjustments in between swings, unless the only way to get to your next opponent is to make a 5' adjustment.

I'm just gonna take a wild ass guess and go out on a limb and suggest that the very reason the OP was asking was so that he could get to the opponent.

[Yuki Akuma]

I think it's safe to assume that the OP is a high enough level to get iterative attacks.

Because most levels allow iterative attacks.

Most people actually play mostly by the rules as presented in the books - which includes, you know, levelling up more than once a campaign.

[KillianHawkeye]

You mean Great Cleave, right?

Either one. It doesn't matter, since they're exactly the same except that Great Cleave removes the per round use restriction. My point was that getting any Cleaves at all was pretty rare in my experience since most enemies I fight are too strong to be taken down in one hit. So when it happens, it's a bonus, but I don't plan my whole strategy around it.


OP wanted to know if you can make a 5' adjustment in the middle of using a full-round attack. I said "yes" but offered a warning that if you do, you can't use other combat feats that are more effective at getting kills. I offered a variety of different strategies which gives the PC the opportunity to make multiple attacks in a round with a higher chance of connecting if you don't make the 5' adjustment. It was just a suggestion. Ultimately, reducing the number of enemies on the combat map is more important than making 5' adjustments in between swings, unless the only way to get to your next opponent is to make a 5' adjustment. I think that with strategic use of your terrain and your move action you can make a bloody mess, and move into position to flank or even surprise a new opponent. Granted, I sound a bit like a ranger or rogue here (and I do prefer their fighting styles on the occasion that I play non-spellcasters) but any melee fighter type can use terrain, flanking, and surprise to their advantage if they think about it and use cooperative strategy.

Your argument seems more about not using a full-attack action rather than the impact of taking a 5-foot step during one. Since the OP is already committed to using full attacks, I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here.

The fact is that (as I said before) taking a 5-foot step is completely compatible with using Cleave, Great Cleave, and Whirlwind Attack. The only thing it stops you from doing is taking a Move action, which you won't be doing anyway if you're taking a Full-Attack. Now, I agree that if you only have one or two attacks per round, moving and attacking and hoping you get a Cleave might be a better strategy than using Full-Attack (especially if you have Spring Attack), but once you get that third and fourth attack you should really be trying to use them unless your opponent has a very high AC. More attacks equals more chances of hitting and dealing damage.

[BillyBobJoe]

Either one. It doesn't matter, since they're exactly the same except that Great Cleave removes the per round use restriction. My point was that getting any Cleaves at all was pretty rare in my experience since most enemies I fight are too strong to be taken down in one hit. So when it happens, it's a bonus, but I don't plan my whole strategy around it.

All that matters for Cleave is that you drop someone below 0. Nowhere does it say this must be accomplished within one blow.

[Yuki Akuma]

Sure, but if your opponent has a lot of HP and you don't down him with one hit, your allies might down him first, or you might only get Cleave to work once every three or four rounds.

Much less consistent than missmvicious seems to believe it is.

[missmvicious]

Right. But that's wrong. You can use Cleave. You can use Great Cleave. Full attack and Cleave/Great Cleave aren't mutually exclusive.

Pg. 92: Player's Handbook, "You cannot take a 5-foot step before [using Cleave]."

I don't think I'm explaining myself well. My point was, using a 5' adjustment eliminates your opportunity to use a much more effective attack than just a full round attack. There are better ways to do some damage in a crowded room.


The 5' step has no bearing on whether or not iterative attacks or Cleave attacks have a higher chance of hitting.

You can only use Cleave after making a successful attack, and you cannot make a 5' adjustment before you use it. Cleave has a higher chance of landing a successful hit than the 2nd attack of a full attack round.




I'm just gonna take a wild ass guess and go out on a limb and suggest that the very reason the OP was asking was so that he could get to the opponent.

I'm assuming that OP didn't tell everyone in the session to "hang on" while he goes online and posts a question about combat strategy so he would know what to do on his next turn. I believe that his/her initial question was hypothetical, and would be something that would be implemented into future combat strategies. At which point I would argue that, when possible, position yourself so that you wouldn't have to make a 5' adjustment to attack. In most combat situations, strategic positioning is possible.

But anyway... I don't know how to explain it any better. I guess I lack the words, and it looks like I'm starting to frustrate some of the posters, which isn't something I intended to do. You may want to try my strategy in a combat setting sometime. It works really well in nearly any combat setting... except aquatic. I don't think it would work in an aquatic setting.

[Yuki Akuma]

You cannot take a five foot step between the attack that activated Cleave and the free attack from Cleave.

You can take a five-foot step before the Cleave-activating attack, or after the free attack from Cleave.

And what is your 'strategy'? Only ever single attacking and hoping Cleave works?

No, that's an awful strategy. If you have multiple attacks, you should use them. Because then you have more chances of hitting.

(Also, I do hope you're aware that enemies can move. Adjusting your positioning is also a part of strategic combat.)

[KillianHawkeye]

Pg. 92: Player's Handbook, "You cannot take a 5-foot step before [using Cleave]."

I can understand why you're reading it that way, but I believe your interpretation is incorrect. Here is the complete text:

If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round.

I'm pretty sure that the sentence "You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack" only applies to the time between the attack is triggered and the time when it is taken.

Otherwise, who is to say what the relevant time frame is? You're claiming it is for your entire turn that you can't have taken a 5-foot step if you want to still use Cleave, but it could just as well be the entire combat encounter, or the entire day, or for your character's entire life, or any other valid interpretation of the word "before." Personally, I choose the simplest meaning. But regardless of what extra meaning we want to attach to the phrasing of this feat, it is hardly game-breaking to allow the character use 5-foot steps however they want, and I'm pretty sure this discussion has nothing to do with the OP's request.

[noparlpf]

Careful though; doing so uses up your move action, and I'm pretty sure you can't use feats like Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Cleave, or Great Cleave in conjunction with that, so you'll lose any bonuses you'd get to attack or damage from any of those.

Still, if you're just trying to clear out a room full of Dire Rats, and your DEX is through the roof, then make a full round attack, adjust, and enjoy the bloodbath. :)

Well, making a full attack would use up my move action anyway, so I might as well be able to move 5' rather than not at all, right?
And let me tell you, never once have I had the chance to use Cleave or Whirlwind Attack in combat. Ever. Nothing we fight bunches up enough. Maybe one day I'll make something with a spiked chain or similar with 30' reach just for the opportunity to use Cleave.


(It's also incredibly easy to get extra attacks, which you can only use when you take a full attack. Incredibly easy. I've seen builds with twenty attacks per round, although that's a little on the TO side.)

I think the most attacks in a round I ever had in a game was around fifteen attacks, at level eighteen. Though by the time we got down to the lowest attack bonuses they were in the low teens.


Anyway, as for what level I would be, I've almost never not had iterative attacks. The other DMs don't like low levels as much as I do, so the lowest I've gotten to play from was third or fourth level, and at those levels you can level up in one or two sessions. By 6th level iterative attacks kick in for high-BaB classes, and by 8th for medium-BaB classes.
Anyway, it was just a theoretical question. I'm planning to run if not a coherent campaign then at least a series of semi-connected adventures for a group of new and newish players at school, and I want to be able to advise them in tactics as they develop. If a guy drops something on his first attack and there's a critter 10' away, I want to be able to let him know that he can 5'-step and attack it with his second attack. (And I suppose since I've been playing more melee characters than casters lately the opportunity to do this might come up for me too.)

[Yuki Akuma]

Even if the attack bonus is in the low teens, you still have a pretty decent chance to hit most enemies. And even then, you'll hit on a 20 regardless.