Making a Samurai.... Without the samurai

[Master Thrower]

Hello playground, I'm looking to build a character who has the feel of the samurai. However I have no desire to do this with the CW version as its terrible. How would I go about accomplishing this? My current Idea was to use a factotum, wield a katana and use iaijutsu strike, and potentially take a few levels in iaijutsu master. Any suggestions on races,feats,and magic items would be greatly apprectiated

As a side note, no TOB.

[Axinian]

What you've got is pretty good actually.

My suggestion would be some sort of Swiftblade build that simply wields a katana to have supernatural iaijutsu speed.

[Flickerdart]

Samurai were usually quite terrifying on the battlefield, even wearing masks to scare their enemies, so you'll probably want to pick up Never Outnumbered and maybe some other fancy Intimidate stuff.

[JaronK]

Sadly, Warblade is the best way to do this... even with the classes you mention. Factotum 8/Warblade 7/Iaijutsu Master 5 is awesome, and is great as a Samurai.

But a Human Factotum8/Iaijutsu Master 10 is certainly solid anyhow. Gnomish Quickrazors are better for Iaijutsu Focus, but don't really fit the Samurai concept too well. Consider also Factotum 8/Scarlet Corsair or Dread Pirate 7/Iaijutsu Master 5 so you can use your Charisma for fear effects, and combining this with Imperious Command for devastating fear.

JaronK

[Deth Muncher]

If you're going for Factotum, I'd say take a gander at Person_Man's X Stat to Y Bonus thread (it's on the front page right now), so you can key everything off of Int and win. Get Int to Intimidate, pick up the feats that let you do fun things when you demoralize foes, pick up EWP: Bastard Sword (your katana), and really, all of your other Feats should be Font of Inspiration. Or I think that's how that works, anyway.

Magic Item-wise, you might want to see if you can get things that are often utility spells keyed to you - for example, you might want a Ring of Invisibility, a Cloak of the Mountebank for quick getaways, etc.

Also, of course, see if your DM will let you get custom items, because bonuses to Iajutsu are always wonderful.

[Master Thrower]

Sadly, Warblade is the best way to do this... even with the classes you mention. Factotum 8/Warblade 7/Iaijutsu Master 5 is awesome, and is great as a Samurai.

But a Human Factotum8/Iaijutsu Master 10 is certainly solid anyhow. Gnomish Quickrazors are better for Iaijutsu Focus, but don't really fit the Samurai concept too well. Consider also Factotum 8/Scarlet Corsair or Dread Pirate 7/Iaijutsu Master 5 so you can use your Charisma for fear effects, and combining this with Imperious Command for devastating fear.

JaronK

Hmm just wondering if I were to get warblade DM approved, why does warblade fit the concept better?

[Urpriest]

Hmm just wondering if I were to get warblade DM approved, why does warblade fit the concept better?

Diamond Mind maneuvers, mostly. Lots of them fit the classic Iajustsu Focus style while giving your character substantially more oomph in melee.

[Big Fau]

Hmm just wondering if I were to get warblade DM approved, why does warblade fit the concept better?

Reflavoring strikes makes them sound like actual kenjutsu techniques instead of DnD-stylized martial arts techniques (which the Warblade is flavored as).


Also, it's really easy to make a Samurai Jack-style Warblade.

[JaronK]

Hmm just wondering if I were to get warblade DM approved, why does warblade fit the concept better?

Diamond Mind maneuvers just work well for the Samurai concept, with the whole "concentrate, then strike" idea. You also get to call your moves instead of just hacking away. And the synergy between Warblades and Factotums and Iaijutsu Masters is amazing... use Cunning Surge to make two martial strikes, enhanced by Iaijutsu Focus.

Check with your DM how Iaijutsu Focus works. It's unclear whether it's supposed to apply to all attacks made in the round you draw your weapon, or just the next attack (real Iaijutsu would have multiple strikes, btw). If you're not using a Quickrazor, that's relevant.

JaronK

[Yuki Akuma]

Iron Heart and Stone Dragon work fine for a samurai too.

And even some Tiger Claw can work for a dual-wielding type, if you decide to pretend to be Musashi.

[Master Thrower]

JaronK;12023107 Check with your DM how Iaijutsu Focus works. It's unclear whether it's supposed to apply to all attacks made in the round you draw your weapon, or just the next attack (real Iaijutsu would have multiple strikes, btw). If you're not using a Quickrazor, that's relevant.

JaronK

My DM ruled that it only applies to the first attack, basing the ruling off the tenth level iaijutsu master ability which lets you strike twice, and applying iaijutsu strike to both, only in that instance. But I was thinking I could either keep two katana on me, or, this is more of a question really what is the action to sheathe a weapon?

Edit: sorry I forgot to check my sources its actually the 8th level ability not the tenth

[Yuki Akuma]

Sheathing a weapon is a move action. Dropping a weapon is a free action, but then you need a spare.

[JaronK]

Move action to sheathe. This is why there's running jokes about Iaijutsu Masters walking around with 50 Katanas, constantly drawing and then dropping them, as well as why Quickrazors became popular for Factotums.

I don't know if it fits your concept, but hidden blades from Complete Scoundrel can be used to get extra attacks after drawing weapons when you need.

JaronK

[Lord.Sorasen]

Actually, as long as you're avoiding the samurai class, you should avoid the katana.

By RAW, the katana is a reflavored bastard sword, but also by RAW bastard sword is a wasted feat. Even though the factotum gets it for free, I just don't see a bastard sword as matching the flavor of a samurai all that well.

In particular, I've always seen the katana as a two-handed weapon. A falchion, perhaps, to show off that edge..

Looking at some kendo stuff, I am seeing the samurai as having a quick but devastating attack. Aijutsu focus, as well as factotum, are perfect for this. As far as races go... Well, human is never a bad bet. I'd use human.

Samurai are also traditionally known for their incredible control of mind... That might be historically inaccurate, but it's a game where dragons exist so whatever. The point is autohypnosis isn't a bad skill to get. Factotum is good at that too...

The magic sword tends to be a staple of samurai stories. I could see taking the ancestral weapon feat at level 1, or perhaps a level in kensai when possible, might be a thing that makes sense.

Another thing worth thinking about, before I head out: What about your factotum magic? I always have felt a wizard's choice in spells determines a character more than people tend to notice, and I figure for factotum it's the same. Have you thought about your spell choices?

[Master Thrower]

Actually, as long as you're avoiding the samurai class, you should avoid the katana.

By RAW, the katana is a reflavored bastard sword, but also by RAW bastard sword is a wasted feat. Even though the factotum gets it for free, I just don't see a bastard sword as matching the flavor of a samurai all that well.

In particular, I've always seen the katana as a two-handed weapon. A falchion, perhaps, to show off that edge..

Looking at some kendo stuff, I am seeing the samurai as having a quick but devastating attack. Aijutsu focus, as well as factotum, are perfect for this. As far as races go... Well, human is never a bad bet. I'd use human.

Samurai are also traditionally known for their incredible control of mind... That might be historically inaccurate, but it's a game where dragons exist so whatever. The point is autohypnosis isn't a bad skill to get. Factotum is good at that too...

The magic sword tends to be a staple of samurai stories. I could see taking the ancestral weapon feat at level 1, or perhaps a level in kensai when possible, might be a thing that makes sense.

Another thing worth thinking about, before I head out: What about your factotum magic? I always have felt a wizard's choice in spells determines a character more than people tend to notice, and I figure for factotum it's the same. Have you thought about your spell choices?

Well spell wise I was thinking some combination of the following spells- Wraith Strike, grease, fly, (potentially) master's touch to get the EWP (katana), and then past that I hadn't thought to much about it

[Zaq]

Actually, as long as you're avoiding the samurai class, you should avoid the katana.

By RAW, the katana is a reflavored bastard sword, but also by RAW bastard sword is a wasted feat. Even though the factotum gets it for free, I just don't see a bastard sword as matching the flavor of a samurai all that well.

In particular, I've always seen the katana as a two-handed weapon. A falchion, perhaps, to show off that edge..

Looking at some kendo stuff, I am seeing the samurai as having a quick but devastating attack. Aijutsu focus, as well as factotum, are perfect for this. As far as races go... Well, human is never a bad bet. I'd use human.

Samurai are also traditionally known for their incredible control of mind... That might be historically inaccurate, but it's a game where dragons exist so whatever. The point is autohypnosis isn't a bad skill to get. Factotum is good at that too...

The magic sword tends to be a staple of samurai stories. I could see taking the ancestral weapon feat at level 1, or perhaps a level in kensai when possible, might be a thing that makes sense.

Another thing worth thinking about, before I head out: What about your factotum magic? I always have felt a wizard's choice in spells determines a character more than people tend to notice, and I figure for factotum it's the same. Have you thought about your spell choices?

Can't you use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon? Or am I thinking of something else? If you're not burning a feat on it, it's mathematically a LITTLE weaker than a greatsword, but it's not bad enough to nix the concept.

Anyway, you are aware that samurai were known just as much for archery (in many cases, more so) as they were for swordplay, right? Are you going to address that at all?

[Daftendirekt]

Actually, as long as you're avoiding the samurai class, you should avoid the katana.

By RAW, the katana is a reflavored bastard sword, but also by RAW bastard sword is a wasted feat. Even though the factotum gets it for free, I just don't see a bastard sword as matching the flavor of a samurai all that well.

:smallconfused:

A bastard sword is a sword that can be used either one-handed or two handed. Longswords are too short to truly work well two-handed, and greatswords are too damn big to be one-handed. Katanas are the same way.

A katana IS a bastard sword. Samurai used katanas. How the hell does that not match the flavor?

Also, where does it say Factotums get EWP (bastard sword)?

[Master Thrower]

Can't you use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon? Or am I thinking of something else? If you're not burning a feat on it, it's mathematically a LITTLE weaker than a greatsword, but it's not bad enough to nix the concept.

Anyway, you are aware that samurai were known just as much for archery (in many cases, more so) as they were for swordplay, right? Are you going to address that at all?

Hmm... I hadn't really thought about it... I would like to include it in the character, however archery is just so poorly supported, and such a feat tax... :smallfrown:

[Yuki Akuma]

Historically, katana were used two-handed. You do not need EWP (Katana) unless you want to be Musashi.

[Zaq]

I won't deny that 3.5 does a piss-poor job of making archery accessible to anyone who doesn't want to build their entire character around it, which is a damn shame. If you can't fit it in, you can't fit it in. You should at least carry a longbow, though.

[Master Thrower]

I won't deny that 3.5 does a piss-poor job of making archery accessible to anyone who doesn't want to build their entire character around it, which is a damn shame. If you can't fit it in, you can't fit it in. You should at least carry a longbow, though.

I'll most certainly carry one around.. At most it might be plus 1-3. But i'll make it some cool material (the arrows for DR purposes) But it certainly won't be a focus.

[Dusk Eclipse]

There are some boosts that do work with Bows (Dancing mongoose is one of them) so a pair of bracers of archery might help a bit, just to have the option to break up the range options.

[Big Fau]

:smallconfused:

A bastard sword is a sword that can be used either one-handed or two handed. Longswords are too short to truly work well two-handed, and greatswords are too damn big to be one-handed. Katanas are the same way.

Maybe IRL, but in 3.5 you are better off using a Longsword than wasting a feat on EWP, and better off using a Greatsword if you go one-handed. The damage differences barely matter for the former, and they are somewhat noticeable at the lower levels for the latter.

[Master Thrower]

Maybe IRL, but in 3.5 you are better off using a Longsword than wasting a feat on EWP, and better off using a Greatsword if you go one-handed. The damage differences barely matter for the former, and they are somewhat noticeable at the lower levels for the latter.

He's saying a bastard sword is martial if you wield it with two hands

[Daftendirekt]

Maybe IRL, but in 3.5 you are better off using a Longsword than wasting a feat on EWP, and better off using a Greatsword if you go one-handed. The damage differences barely matter for the former, and they are somewhat noticeable at the lower levels for the latter.

I wasn't talking about game mechanics at all. I meant that that is how it actually is. And his claim that katanas (aka bastard swords) don't fit the fluff of a samurai, which is complete bollocks.

[ZombiePunch]

So are you going for an armored historical samurai or more of a robed anime samurai?

Here's my Iaijutsu Master Build

5 Fighter- Kensai Variant
1 Battle Dancer- Gives Charisma as bonus to AC
4 Iaijutsu Master
1 Exemplar- took skill focus and skill artistry with Iaijutsu Focus
6 Iaijutsu Master
1 Marshall- Add twice my Charisma Bonus to Iaijutsu Focus Checks
1 Fighter
1 Exotic Weapon Master- Uncanny Blow

Took Cosmopolitan feat at first level so Iaijutsu Focus is always a class skill

So I add my Dex, Int, and Cha to my AC

So Human for the bonus feat
I think the Mercurial Strike feat fits well
As for items
Bracers of Armor
Dex, Cha, and Int items
Ring of Evasion
Item's that boost your Initiative.

[Big Fau]

I wasn't talking about game mechanics at all. I meant that that is how it actually is. And his claim that katanas (aka bastard swords) don't fit the fluff of a samurai, which is complete bollocks.

And? "Katana" itself is little more than the Japanese word for "Sword" (there's some nuances, but it's very close to literal).

There's nothing stopping a DM from declaring a MWK greatsword to be a zanbatou (SIC), and IIRC there's a sword that is a step between a wakizashi and a katana which could serve as a longsword.

[Lord.Sorasen]

I wasn't talking about game mechanics at all. I meant that that is how it actually is. And his claim that katanas (aka bastard swords) don't fit the fluff of a samurai, which is complete bollocks.

Seriously man, I don't understand why you're acting so verbal about this. I mean, it works fine, but I just don't think it's the most accurate choice. And you're welcome to disagree with that; D&D 3.5 has for the most part abstracted real world weapons and armor to make them fit into certain categories. I don't personally think of the katana as a 1-handed weapon, is the full of it, honestly. I don't have a bastard sword to compare it to, so I guess I could be wrong on this. But I always considered there to be more important aspects to a katana than the weight. The curve, for instance, which D&D seems to suggest means a higher crit ratio. Also, for what it's worth, you can totally wield a longsword two-handed in D&D. The difference between the two weapons is d8 vs. d10.


Also, where does it say Factotums get EWP (bastard sword)?

That's so weird... I was under the impression that factotums had a single exotic weapon proficiency. I need to find out where I got that idea.

[DarkestKnight]

my brother played a swordsage from the rokugan/oriental adventures setting. the greasiest thing he found, was using psionic focus for some of the maneuvers (diamond mind i think). at one point he walked up to a party member and rolled one dice, and cut him for 72 damage. we were only 3rd level.

more on topic, look into some of the rokugan/oriental adventures books. forget the CW samurai and take the class levels out of there, for some reason they are better. they also give you clan oriented feats for samurai and iajitsu stuff. good times, good times.

[JaronK]

That's so weird... I was under the impression that factotums had a single exotic weapon proficiency. I need to find out where I got that idea.

Whispergnome Factotums get EWP Quickrazor free, but that's because it's a Gnomish Quickrazor.

JaronK

[Hanuman]

The biggest problem with xamurai is the same problem with every campaign specific class, they only work in a VERY specific themed module and lose all their combat purpose once they exit it.

The core of the samurai is this:

Quick Draw, Katana, Iaijutsu Skill, Med/Heavy Armor, No Shield, Good Dex (initiative)

Anything else is just bonus, or fluff, and because samurai as a class tends to add fluff junk instead of concentrating on improving what is at it's core, it pretty much falls on it's face in terms of tier.

Fighter is a viable option, it has everything you need, gets a good amount of feats, and flavors to samurai quite nicely, because of it's low tier you could do a subtle modification for the iaijutsu.

Further advancement can use Iaijutsu Master (OA), which is the prestige class for samurai anyway so it works 100%.

[Little Brother]

The problem with samurai is that everyone thinks katana(which would actually be terrible against anyone with any armor, but whatever) or daisho. Why isn't the Samurai class more about things used more for fighting an actual battle, a naginata or longbow from a horse? A katana, particularly as part of a daisho, was more of a symbol of status. Yes, you could use it to chop someone to bits, just like I could use scepter to brain someone. It would be more practical to use a polearm on horseback than a sword made out of truly awful metal, and likely to snap on heavy armor.

Jus' sayin'. Focus it more on archery/mounted combat. Daisho is nice and iconic, but historically inaccurate.

[Hanuman]

The problem with samurai is that everyone thinks katana(which would actually be terrible against anyone with any armor, but whatever) or daisho. Why isn't the Samurai class more about things used more for fighting an actual battle, a naginata or longbow from a horse? A katana, particularly as part of a daisho, was more of a symbol of status. Yes, you could use it to chop someone to bits, just like I could use scepter to brain someone. It would be more practical to use a polearm on horseback than a sword made out of truly awful metal, and likely to snap on heavy armor.

Jus' sayin'. Focus it more on archery/mounted combat. Daisho is nice and iconic, but historically inaccurate.
See: Ninja

[jiriku]

If ToB is barred, I'd second a recommendation for factotum. Psychic warrior would also work for a slightly mystical, ki-themed samurai. Just steer clear of the transformative powers and stick to the ones that can be flavored as superior concentration, skill, and focus. Steer clear of fighter or any samurai variant - there's just not enough to work with there. Heck, battle sorcerer/abjurant champion would work as well, and the spells could be flavored as kiho powers or swordsmanship so awesome that it's magical. (Not that I'm not recommending battle sorcerer, just pointing out that even a poor fit like sorcerer would be more effective than a fighter.)

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Play a Fighter. With the right feats you'll make a great samurai.

[Gwendol]

+1 to take a look at the OA samurai.

Otherwise I would consider a Knight 4/Marshal X/... as a base for the build. Samurai's were the Japan equivalence of the western feudal knight after all.

[Killer Angel]

No one still mentioned the obvious Monk-Paladin? :smalltongue:

Sadly, you'll ever find some Elan, pretending that you are, effectively, a real Samurai. :smallwink:

[Hanuman]

No one still mentioned the obvious Monk-Paladin?
If you want to play a paladin samurai then play a sohei =P

[GodGoblin]

My non TOB suggestion is Knight from phb 2, it even has a mechanical 'Code of honor' so fits really well.

But even though Warblade is a perfect fit I think Crusader could be a fun alternative.

[Master Thrower]

here is the character-

LG- Factotum 8 Iaijutsu Master 2 Exemplar 1 (rest of the levels will be iaijutsu master, then one factotum)

Stats-

10 Str
16 Dex (+3 item)
16 Con
18 Int
10 Wis
18 Cha (+2 Item)

Items-
+1 Holy Cold Iron Katana
Vest of res +4
Bracers of armor +1
Ring of pro+1
Amulet of Nat AC +1
Item of IF +5 (we only allow items up to +5)
Item of UMD +5
3x CMW
Headband of conscious effort
+3 Dex
+2 Cha

Feats- Improved initiative, quick draw, weapon focus katana, force of personality, skill focus (IF)

Skills that matter-

IF- +30 (Can take ten if needed)
Hide +21 (Can take ten)
Move silently +21 (Can take ten)
UMD- +23 (Can take ten, DM ruled exemplar allowed me to)
Concentration + 17 (Can take ten, so 1/Day my fort save is a 28)

[Midnight_v]

So... its done you need no more help. Man, I came late to the party. :smalltongue:

[Wyntonian]

I've been following this, and I like your take on the samurai, but I don't know what a headband of conscious effort is. Care to share?

[Master Thrower]

I've been following this, and I like your take on the samurai, but I don't know what a headband of conscious effort is. Care to share?

It allows you to once per day make a concentration check in place of a fort save

[Yuki Akuma]

It allows you to once per day make a concentration check in place of a fort save

...Just get an item that lets you use the Diamond Mind maneuver that does exactly that. Except it's not once per day.

[hex0]

Im seeing a trend on these forums.

1. Someone posts a request for help and says they cant use TOB.
2. (almost) everyone replies and suggests TOB.

:smallannoyed:

[JaronK]

Im seeing a trend on these forums.

1. Someone posts a request for help and says they cant use TOB.
2. (almost) everyone replies and suggests TOB.

:smallannoyed:

It's hard, because certain character concepts are very hard to make work without ToB... and then ToB does them REALLY well, and is a lot more fun to play as well. Samurai and "Monk" are the most common examples of this, as is Tank and Ninja. So yeah, when people ask, it gets brought up. Someone saying "I want to make a Samurai... no ToB" is like someone saying "I want to pound in a nail... no hammers." Sure, there are some things that work and make do, but "are you sure about the hammers thing?" is an appropriate thing to say.

JaronK

[Tokuhara]

Samurai from PF is actually halfway decent. Combo with warblade and you're set

[Flickerdart]

Someone saying "I want to make a Samurai... no ToB" is like someone saying "I want to pound in a nail... no hammers." Sure, there are some things that work and make do, but "are you sure about the hammers thing?" is an appropriate thing to say.
I prefer to hammer my nails with microscopes.

[Yuki Akuma]

Whenever someone says "I want to do x, DM says no ToB", my first response will always be "Step one: Convince your DM to allow ToB".

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Whenever someone says "I want to do x, DM says no ToB", my first response will always be "Step one: Convince your DM to allow ToB".
Or buy him a copy if availability is the problem. This should be enough for him to consider your request. :smallwink: