How should I as a DM wing item values.

[Templarkommando]

Suppose for a moment there is a fountain in A dungeon that features a stone gargoyle. It's not a monster, it's just a sculpture. The party looks it over, and decides that maybe they can sell it to an art dealer in a nearby town. So, they spend the next few hours in-game carefully removing the gargoyle from the fountain and then spend the time to haul it back to town.

They walk up to the art dealer and ask him how much their ancient stone gargoyle is worth.

Here is the problem. Clearly, the gargoyle is worth something. I can't just say, "no you can't sell it," because among other things, it's not fair to punish players for creativity all the time. Maybe I give them a run around quest this time about how the gargoyle is cursed/ owned by a powerful outsider / etc. But what about the next time they wander out of a dungeon with whatever wasn't nailed down? Is there a good way to determine what they just salvaged from a dungeon is worth when it's not an item listed in an equipment list?

[Doughnut Master]

Well do you want to encourage this type of behavior or discourage it?

Also, how big is this thing? If it's a real statue statue, it'd take quite some time not only to get it out (if that's even possible without breaking it), but also getting it back to the city, which presents both complications and vulnerabilities.

Basically, you can give them a fair reward as any good piece of art, but you may just want to make it a pain to try and do again.

[Big Fau]

Have the item count towards a future favor. Tell them he can't give a GP price because such an item can't be sold to anyone who isn't a major land owner, and as a result he'll work out a deal. That favor can go much farther than GP ever could if they are cunning enough.

[Templarkommando]

I'm not too worried about this kind of play as long as it doesn't become cumbersome to the game. If we spend five hours of our six hour session digging various mundane room features out of a dungeon in order to sell them in town, that might be a problem.

On the other hand, a character who thinks to himself "I might could make some extra scratch if I keep an eye out for something that's valuable in this dungeon, that others might not think to pick up-" that's not necessarily a bad thing imho.

Size is a good point. Depending on how big the gargoyle is, it might be a huge pain to get the thing to an art dealer, but the gargoyle was just an example. There are plenty of other sorts of features that would be easier to extricate from a dungeon. What I'm looking for, is a good way to figure out what those things are worth.

[Diefje]

Art dealer: "oh man looks like you guys broke it when you moved it. Bummer, it's a real Bloomington. Those are worth thousands!" and watch them bring back the bricks and doorframes of the next dungeon.

If you want to reward them, but not encourage it. I'd say 50ish gp, no more than 100gp. When they're low level that's plenty to maybe get some more supplies, but not enough to really mess with wealth. And you could always have the art dealer trade them for an item that they missed as treasure.

[Templarkommando]

Have the item count towards a future favor. Tell them he can't give a GP price because such an item can't be sold to anyone who isn't a major land owner, and as a result he'll work out a deal. That favor can go much farther than GP ever could if they are cunning enough.


That's not a bad idea, and I may use that at some point, but what do I do the second and third times the party bring in something like that. It seems like it would be a little easier to just return a GP value at it for a good portion of the time.

[Big Fau]

That's not a bad idea, and I may use that at some point, but what do I do the second and third times the party bring in something like that. It seems like it would be a little easier to just return a GP value at it for a good portion of the time.

Use the MiC's Random Treasure charts, and assign them a value based on the party's level without telling the players. Then make them put any ranks in Appraise to good use when they try to sell it by having the vendor haggle them.

Done properly, they may end up getting a little more than they expected, but they will be slightly discouraged from doing this too often.


Those treasure values won't make a major difference in the long run unless they literally sell every brick they find.

[Anxe]

Amazon is your friend (http://www.amazon.com/Large-Gargoyle-Garden-Statue/dp/B0052TQF44/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1318567300&sr=8-16)

That one is a decent sized gargoyle. It's worth $200. Estimate from there that the gargoyle is worth 200GP. Your gargoyle may be bigger than this one though. Increase the price by a weight ratio. The Amazon gargoyle is 50 pounds. Let's say yours is 300. So multiply $200 by 6 and you get 1200GP.

That's what I would've done if I was in your situation. However a better plan is to put GP values on everything in the dungeon. Even the doors. They take those too sometimes.

[Dr.Epic]

Not that much. You got to remember these are medieval times. There isn't really a middle class. Most people are serfs or peasant with no spendable income. Then you have the upper class -nobles, royalty - and they'd probably just hire someone should they want this. And really, I'd imagine it'd be difficult to just attach a gargoyle to a building. You just can't prop it there. Really, looking at this from a merchant's point of view, this is gonna be sitting on your shelf a long time and you just can't hand over a large amount of gold for it.

[JaronK]

I agree with the others... that's not an easy item to move. Why would the merchant buy it?

Also, consider the fact that this is a world where anything made of stone could be quickly churned out by a bored Wizard casting Wall of Stone and Fabricate. There's not going to be THAT many level 9 Wizards doing this, but I imagine once in a while a Wizard raises funds by flooding the market with such stuff, so the price won't be all that high anyhow.

It was a good idea, but that particular item isn't terribly valuable.

And by the way, I actually design such decorations in game as illusions with stone underneath, created by a Wizard casting Wall of Stone, Fabricate, and Permanent Illusion. The Illusion makes it look like gold, silver, ruby, or whatever else might look good (and doesn't chip or rust or decay, so it's actually better as a facade than real stuff), while the stone gives it substance. This lets you have grandiose decor without the PCs stealing everything.

JaronK

[Templarkommando]

Not that much. You got to remember these are medieval times. There isn't really a middle class. Most people are serfs or peasant with no spendable income. Then you have the upper class -nobles, royalty - and they'd probably just hire someone should they want this. And really, I'd imagine it'd be difficult to just attach a gargoyle to a building. You just can't prop it there. Really, looking at this from a merchant's point of view, this is gonna be sitting on your shelf a long time and you just can't hand over a large amount of gold for it.

Yeah, and that's basically a good portion of holding out on a party to keep them from getting full value for something like that. I still want to be able to throw a ballpark GP value at something, even if it's not full value. I think I'm gonna check out the tables in the Magic Item Compendium like Big Fau was suggesting and see if I can't come up with anything.

Thanks for the help everyone this has already been a productive thread.

[BobVosh]

That's what I would've done if I was in your situation. However a better plan is to put GP values on everything in the dungeon. Even the doors. They take those too sometimes.

not my fault the dm said the doors were made of adamantine.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Something like that gargoyle wouldn't be purchased by the art dealer directly, such things aren't in high demand. He could find a buyer for it, but until then the PCs would have to store it themselves. Once the art dealer did find a buyer for that item he would negotiate a good price for the PCs, in exchange for taking a 40%+ cut for himself. Until then the PCs are stuck renting space to store the thing, and it may end up costing them more than they would even get out of it. A potential buyer would want to look at it first of course, and even see how it looks among his other works at his estate, so the PCs would be forced to spend several weeks transporting it there at a great cost only to be told that it's not the size/proportions for what he had in mind. See if they ever decide to take any fixtures out of a dungeon again.

Edit: I'd just like to point out, creativity shouldn't be punished, but trying to exploit the RP aspects of the game for mechanical benefit should be punished. Art objects are categorized as such and placed for a specific reason, to give the party wealth. Decor of a dungeon that is not categorized as art objects, not intended to increase the party wealth, should not be used as such. "That would look cool in my garden," is one thing, but, "I bet I can get some money for this thing," with regards to something their characters were never intended to get money for, should backfire in some way. Maybe the PCs think it looks good, but in reality it's just a cheap replica made from plaster and brick mortar and not actually carved from stone. That's what Appraise (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/appraise.htm) is for, if nobody is any good at that skill they could end up hauling back something that's nearly worthless, only to get laughed at when they try to sell it.

TL;DR PCs should not be allowed to sell items that were never intended to increase the party's wealth. Come up with a reason why a given item is worthless, and tell them they should have used the Appraise skill before they bothered hauling it out of the dungeon.

[ClothedInVelvet]

I had a version of this problem when my PCs were looting everything they could possibly find. Weapons, ammo, armor and clothes from everything they killed, dishes and silverware from any homes they invaded, etc.

Just remember that the money system isn't as high as the PCs probably expect it to be. 1gp =/= $1. Further, the items they want are probably worth more than $1. Look at the goods & services table, where a royal outfit costs 200gp. That's got "gems, gold, silk, and fur in abundance" and it's only 200gp. Peasants are wearing 1sp outfits, so it's probably safe to assume the vast majority of people in the realm never have 2gp to rub together. Once your party gets sick of going through all that work to get a few gp here and a few there, they'll get back on task.

[jiriku]

The simple answer is, make something up. You can say it's worth 50gp because the stone is common and the workmanship is only so-so, or you can say it's worth thousands because it's a lost sculpture by a famous dead artist. And if it put more wealth in the party's hands than you intended, you can always discreetly remove some coinage from the later rooms of the dungeon. After all, the originally owner had to pay for that statue somehow, right?

Let the players guide you as to what their interests are. If they're hauling large art objects out of the dungeon and constantly eyeballing the drapes, they're telling you that that's the kind of playstyle they enjoy. Scale back on the gold and gear and give them more junk to carry. If they start bypassing the big heavy stuff saying "you know, it just wasn't worth it to carry all that stuff back to town last time", then follow their cue again, ease off the large objects, and start including more portable gems, jewelry, and stuff that's easy to pocket.