[3.PF] Help with a battle. My players gonna defend Waterdeep.

[Fenryr]

Hello! I'm the DM and in a few sessiones (four or five weeks later) I plan to make the party battle to defend Waterdeep. It's Forgotten Realms campaign setting (but any sourcebook should be fine). Also, I don't have a tactician mind. That's why 'm here.

I've read Heroes of Battle but I don't think it's enough. I have no Waterdeep information about the soldiers, defenses, the walls and all that.

Random facts about what 'm planning. Feel free to add any information or idea you may have.
The party is composed of a Paladin (Sacred Shield), Alchemist, Gunslinger (Pistolero), Magus (Bladebound) and a Wizard. They're level 5 and 6. They will have time to prepare, it's not a surprise attack. The battle will occur in the land. I don't want the sea to be important.

I don't want major NPCs involced in the battle. Decisions ok, but I don't want a level 20 NPC Wizard to aid the party.

Who's gonna attack? Orcs, drows, hobgoblins and undead. I don't know who is the leader and why. How should they attack? First, catapults, I think. Then what? Battering rams? Explosives? They should use towers to get at the to of the walls? I don't know!

I want it a large scale battle. Seige weapons, armies and volleys of arrows and bombs and everything possible. I want my players to fear, to think Waterdeep is doomed. They must rally really hard to win.

How many enemies soldiers and how well equipped should invade? A campaign of this type is expensive.

What a Waterdeep general or leader would do? They should fight inside, outside? First protect the civilians, right? They make all the civilans abandon their homes and hide them or send them to the sea.

How should Waterdeep defend itself? Siege weapons versus siege weapons? Send the party, a small batallion to do something?

Maybe I should keep it simple: the party must defend a wall or a door. So I can focus only on that. Then they use rally and victory points and everything in the Heroes of Battle. Should they perform good, Waterdeep will be saved. Should they die, get missing in action or worse, Waterdeep will be conquered. A small series of battle, perhaps.


Thank you in advance.

[Corlindale]

D&D is not a system made for running huge battles. In general, what I would recommend you do as far as involving the party is to first of all allow them to make some decisions about overall tactics prior to the battles.

During the battle, have the players respond specifically to certain situations arising various places on the battlefield, so that they effectively have some more isolated encounters - but while you still describe the carnage of battle around them. Such as "The walls have been breached here, we need immediate backup!" or "They have a sorceror - we can't handle him by ourselves!" or "We think we've found their leader, taking him out would be a major victory for us" or "Some of them found a hidden entrance into the city, if it's not found and sealed quickly they will attack us from behind!".

[Kol Korran]

... do your players know the Forgotten realms? because Waterdeep is THE main metropolis, and it's SWIMMING with high level people. (mages, fighters, clerics and more.) if they know it, there is no chance they'll believe they are the ones who are going to save the city.

it might be wise to station this in a smaller place, a smaller city but of some import. it can still feel quite Epic. (See Lord ofthe rings- Helms Deep. and they still had ahigh level guy to save their asses)

assuming the battle does take place ins somewhere smaller, i suggest the following general structure:

scouting/ getting infotrmation: the city knows it's going to be attacked, but doesn't quite know what forces it's facing. this goads a scouting mission. a mostly stealthy mission, but on the way:

-Ambush from sentries around the main camp, around CR 4-5, the party must stop any from escaping, can interogate for basic information.

- then some stealthy work/ infiltration with spells and the like to learn a bit more. depending on the army they could learn of: general size (should be enormous), what groups are in the army (main sort of troops), leadership, magical support, special forces, plan of attack. the party shouldn't be able to get them all, just some. this should constitute a sort of a skill/ rolepaly challenge. most importantly- how much time till the attack. this gives the party some time line.

- the enemy becomes aware that there is some intruder, the party needs to make it's get away.

- as they run off, special trackers/ hunters follow them, trying to eliminate the threat. this should be about 2 levels above them, or their level but with highly favorable conditions to their enemy. (bad whether, while they camp/ sleep, are in a very tough terrain or in mist. the trackers should be stealthy, fast, and if at all possible creepy looking- were creatures or barghest for example, or a pack of worgs led by a worg with a temaplate (half fiend?) should work well.

the preparation: DON'T underestimate this part! it's a great tension builder, and the players usually love it, trying to come up with all kinds of crazy ideas of how to fight. first thing is knowledge of resources:
- the party starts this as an Elite force, but ultimately subservient to the leader of thetwn and/ or general. their advice is appreciated, but they are (supposed to be) just a main elite force.

- fighting people: i suggest about 1/5 of the invading force, most of them of a low level but about as tough as the regular invaders.
- major support: should prove of general city leader (might also be one of the other categories), leader of the troops (your "general" sort to speak) arcane support (one major arcanist and a few minor), divine support (same), crafters (magical items or fortifications and machines of war), and 1-2 special units, thematic ("the knights of X, the blades of Y)- few in numbers, but elite, and can deal with specific threats) these last ones should feel like a specialized themed adventuring group, about 1 level below the PCs.

have one high level NPC leading one of these groups, someone the twon depend on, rely on (a high level mage or such, about 5 levels above the party). don't worry, they will be dealt with, and play a part.

you don't need a detailed list of all NPCs and what they are capable of, but a general outline of their abilities (can take 2 hits, cast any of these 5 spells, and so on)
long term spells and effects are especially important, as do communication and information gathering powers.

- magical items at their disposal- i suggest loading with simple minor ones,and wands for casters (especially of the "cure" variety, and something blasty for mages, to conserve their powers. also, a few simple but interesting battle controls items are a win- helps characters be smart. don't splurge, but don't be too cheap either. the party will need the resources.

- preparing strategy: think of possible plans to defend the city, give it 2-3 possible entry routes, and have the players prepare. the main thing is TIME- they can get the crafters make a ballista, but what of strengthning the fortifications? should the peasents dig trenches or prepare water battalions against fire, or prepare to fight as militia?

should the mages prepare scrolls? wands? potions?

time time time... and there should never be enough!

- pepper in more information (more scouts, perhaps divinations). their main purpose is to provide just tidbit of information, soem of it crucial, but most of it jsut serving to alarm the PCs. and town.

play the feat in the town- some poeple leave, some call to appease the invaders, some are just afraid and so on. give it an atmosphere of fear (again- Helm's Deep). more than that though- show disagreement between the town's leaders- on tactics, on approach, on leadership. the PCs should feel they are in a shakey position. they might roleplay and try and get things together if you want.

- the demorelizing attack: have a sudden attack on the city. this should be mainly awe and terror, not trying to conquer: dragons or huge magical beasts (a Chimera? stolen from RHoD), the undead or something of the like. give whatever it is a slight DR to avoid damage from ineffectual arrows, and have the PC face one threat while the Elite group faces another. the DC should be 2-3 higher than the party, a real threat.

- but it was just a diversion! just as the PCs finish with beasty, someone yells the tow leaders are attacked! they can try and save one of them, but don't mention the high level NPC as begin attacked.

- the PCs rsuh and face an especially efficient assassin (or assassins)- perhaps an undead ghost? a doppleganger/ changeling who got caught? some one else? they manage to perhaps save this leader but another may have been killed, and most importantly- so does the major NPC... a demorelizing blow. and quite often a change of tactics. the PCs may find a few consumables high level magic items (scrolls?0 for a bit of an OOmph, but not as much as the major NPC him/ herself.

- due to recent events, the PCs are given charge of the defense.if the PCs don't feel comfortable, give it to the Elite force (they are suppose to "fill in" for the party if something whenever they can't). GIVE THE PCs some means to communicate with the rest of the battlefield- be it magical devices (rings of message?) or perhaps a system of signals from different parts of town (or even just runners?)

- one last important thing- the invading force comes 1-3 days early, though scouts give a 1 day alert. disrupting plans (nothing works out as planned in war) but giving enough time for final preparations)

The siege, general layout
ok, a battle day should be long. i suggest dividing it to 6-8 encounters to feel exhausting. most of these should be lower than the party's CR level, about 2-3 uqual, and one higher (usually at the day's turning point or near the end, a last ditch effort). the party relies on resources and the aid of the other troops to keep them going.

why a few days? to give it the sense of an actual siege,and to give it a sense of progression. 1 day is usually far too small.

the party might level while in the siege, try to have supplies to allow them to (i'm not sure how you do leveling)

what i suggest below is only a suggestion. PCs are notrious for taking things differently, so you have to be able to improvise.

the general feel should be like this: "each side has some knowledge of the other, so they each have plans to deal with certain threats/ achieve soem goals) these should succeed, to a point. then each can bring new surprises to the field, and the other side needs to adapt.

try and place about 5-6 strategic goals for each side:
PCs goals: taking down the catapults, taking down the enemy mages, taking down the leader of the ogres, disrupt the magic items strenghtening the undead, take down the main iron banner.

Horde goals: breach the walls, take down the City's main casters, destroy the graneris, take down the construct defending the back gate and so on...

these should help you prepare.

On the Whole, if you can get Red Hand of Doom, check the siege on Brindol for ideas, some are quite nice! (though you'll need to level it down)

Day 1: defense, testing the waters most armies in big sieges test the defenses with a small force first. some possible encounters for the day:

- first waves (general big waves of low levels trying to get close, under cover of archers and perhaps caster. this is just to get that "siege feel taste" in the players mouths.

- "Battering ram squad"- a group of ogres protects as a shell nears one of the gates (or all of them) with a battering rams

- flyers, perhaps dropping oil and fir on houses and such, should be accompanied by magical assault.

by this point the wall's troops should be prepared to take on further attacks, narrate fighting with the hordes in certain breaks. ALLOW THE PCs to learn some more info, glean on the army's key strategic points, where they are located, and assumed defenses. to time to spring up the enemy's surprises "is this all you can conjure up Saruman?":

- "diggy diggy hole!": Ankhegs were digging under the city, and now mroe powerful troops are entering it in it's middle! the PCs have to rush and face these. i suggest 2-3 encounters here, some with elite troops, some with troops of the regular races (elite drow/ hobgobs), some who are supposed to inspire terror (undead?), and some who are supposed to kill/ destroy a main target (see above for horde possible goals). the last should be a bit tougher.

- not done yet! as this threat is done, give the party a minute or so to recuperate, when they hear a cry from the walls- some ladders have gone up, the enemy has breached! the party rushes to the wall. this is a mook fight, where the party cleaves their way at the loads of mooks trying to clim the walls (3-4 ladders) till they get them done.

- last threat for the day:the enemy by this point has learned of the PCs and launches a last major offence, also to inspire terror. this should be the day's big fight. i suggest either another magical flying beast, or perhaps a beast with a rider (manticore with a caster riding) or perhaps even a basilisk or medusa with the fly spell on them, using the cover of darkness to sneak up to the troops (and PCs) on the walls.

first day evaluation: as night falls, both sides take a bit of respite to prepare for the next day. (es, i know the enemy has night vision, but 60ft are not enough to do large battles by). the city learns of losses of any major assets. also- though the invaders were repelled, it was just a small part of their forces, and the city already suffers. it will go down unless something is done.

as the people converge, either the party or the elite force suggest to strike at their strategic points, while the other team helps defend the city. i suggest haveing some scrolls/ potions/ wands of things like invisibiliy, gaseous form, fly, alter/ disguise self (allow it to affect not just self) and so on.

Day two: defend, but also strike back
either the PCs emabark on stratigical strikes, or they defend for half the day, and then the Elite force is getting the crap beaten out of it, and they need to be replaced. the particularities of this day are for you and the players to decide, but a few important notes:
- not all targets are of equal value, and they do not all sport equally strong defenses. on the whole i suggest the first and second targets to be taken with some surprise (facing aboiut partly level -1 defenses) but then the rest might be reinforced (add perhaps hell hounds that can see invisible, or a casters with dispel magic, or simply pass words, guards being mroe alert and such)

- finding an over wheleming force of an important target is perfectly acceptable. a rushed retreat might make for a good encounter.

- at some point the enemy might employ an ambush for the character- a major target or two seem easy, only to spring up[ an attack. the party might be captured, to be saved by the elite team, possibly at the cost of their lives.

- you can pepper the special missions with defensive encounters again, some that resemble the previous day (to give the players a sense of familiarity) some new. on the whole though, not the focus of the day.

- have the enemies score some successes as well- a major contigent has died, perhaps the gate was breached, reinforced for now, but much weaker, and so on.

- Most Important: the party learns through their missions the whereabouts of the major leadership/ thing that unites this different races/ most major key point in the war.

- end of day evaluation: nice successes, but not enough, the enemy is still too strong. if you can manage to get them to level here it's sweet! "what can men do against such evil?" "ride with me!"

the attack:hopefully the party realize they need to strike the leadership (and hopefully you've peppered info about it/ them to get the party a bit more excited and make it personal). but how?

the idea is that i's too well protected, so you need to draw it/ isolate it somehow. here must enter the tricks/ deception/ ruse of war (a diversion, showing something they wat, emptying the city, or the like) or an act of blatant courage and ferocity, verging on suicide (end epicness)- the town attacks the army.

if you can, have the party be prepared with the best of left resources, and have them approach under whatever you chose above to the leadership.i'll leave the final battle for you, but a few suggestions:

- the party is "somehow" found out close to it's destination, they have to fight several Elite mooks on way to the leader/s, meanwhile he might attack them from afar.

- the leader can be single, or a group of the races leaders (a drow cleric, hobgob warchief, orc shaman, and some necromancer? perhaps one of the ones already mentioned such as the drow?)

- if they are not a group, have the leader also have a "pet"- some magical beast or very young dragon to add grandeur to him. i suggest making him a cleric of war of some sort- they are quite durable and effective.

Win?

hope this wasn't too long (i tend to get wordy) and hope it helped in some way. good luck! :smallbiggrin:

[Alleran]

Warning that I won't be concealing spoilers in the following:


I don't want major NPCs involced in the battle. Decisions ok, but I don't want a level 20 NPC Wizard to aid the party.
Waterdeep has a number of extremely powerful characters living in or near it. Off the top of my head, there's Khelben, Laeral, Qilue (making two of the Seven plus Khelben, and they can call in all their buddies if they need to, which includes old man Elminster himself... and it just scales up from there), Halaster (in Undermountain, though he prefers to not be bothered), two surviving Netherese arcanists (both epic level), Maaril the Dragonmage, Piergeiron the Paladinson, one other Paladin of Tyr (20th-25th level) whose name escapes me right now, Maskar Wands (23rd level wizard), the Harpers, and slightly more than a dozen dragons of various different types. And that's not counting all the priests (a number of faiths have a very strong presence in Waterdeep, thanks to Ao appearing there at the end of the Time of Troubles) or the privateers and mercenaries the city can recruit if necessary (Candlekeep, for example, will often send aid if Waterdeep is threatened). Or the Walking Statues (the behemoths who awaken to protect the city if it's attacked - and they can even fight threats on the ethereal and astral planes, if I remember rightly). The Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, too (a guild of mages). Or the Gray Hands ("the Gray Hands are an elite force of high-powered adventurers who answer directly to the Lords of Waterdeep... [...] the Lords are loath to call on the Gray Hands unless no other option presents itself, for the fallout from conflicts involving this group invariably inflict a great deal of collateral damage to the City of Splendours..."); and the Gray Hands generally range from about 13th level up to 18th (one of them is a Frost Giant). Even the Red Wizards will probably be out to protect their enclave in the city, which means you need to deal with them as well.

(EDIT: Oh yes, and I also forgot the Griffon Riders.)

This is going to create severe problems for both you and your players. It is workable (I'll go into that in a second), but this is very tenuous reasoning, and stretches the bounds of credibility quite a ways. Bear that in mind. Attacking Waterdeep isn't going to be quite as stupidly suicidal as attacking Io'Lokar (that city in Eberron where the lowest-ranked citizen is about 10th level), but it's still virtually out of bounds unless you're already pretty much into epic levels. Anyway:

What I'd recommend here is to use the high level NPCs in a similar fashion to what happened on other occasions when Waterdeep was attacked. Khelben and Laeral, for example, banded together with a number of other wizards and started directing circle magic against the attackers and foiling their own magical assaults on the city. It was a suitably awe-inspiring display. Piergeiron, however, led a number of roaming assault parties, both on and off the walls, in defense of the city. Basically, he got down and dirty in combat rather than hanging back to solely defend and direct (though with Khelben mind-linking various leaders, he was able to do that as well).

The dragons drifted around on their own, largely staying out of draconic form, but did use magic where possible to help protect the city. The Grey Hands slaughtered everything in their path, the clerics healed (and fought), the Walking Statues were squashing things left, right and centre, and so on and so forth.

Now, all this is well and good. It does, however, stretch the bounds of credibility, as I said. If your players know anything about Waterdeep, don't expect them to buy it (I certainly wouldn't). But there are many other things that PCs can be doing to contribute to the overall conflict. Myself, I'd make them an assault team, much like the Open Lord and numerous other adventuring groups would have. They roam around, fighting anything they come across that's attempting to hurt the city. It allows you to keep battles fairly small-ish and controllable, but should also give the sense of a more epic scope to the overall situation if you keep them updated on events surrounding them. They're unlikely to be the pivotal turning point of the conflict without a bit of stretching, but they can at least feel like they're contributing.


Who's gonna attack? Orcs, drows, hobgoblins and undead. I don't know who is the leader and why. How should they attack? First, catapults, I think. Then what? Battering rams? Explosives? They should use towers to get at the to of the walls? I don't know!
Drow, I'd guess, unless the undead are powerful liches (they'd have to be, if they were even considering taking on everything in Waterdeep). Note that if you're bringing undead into play, then Waterdeep's own undead (power-brokers and underworld rulers, such as vampires, liches, and at least one Vampire Lord) will strike back, even if it's in the darkness and shadows, to protect their personal fiefdoms. You'd probably get Skullport rising against you as well, which is a whole extra issue for an invading army.

No offense, but I'd really suggest that you work out the overriding purpose of this particular horde, why they're attacking, and so on and so forth.


I want it a large scale battle. Seige weapons, armies and volleys of arrows and bombs and everything possible. I want my players to fear, to think Waterdeep is doomed. They must rally really hard to win.

How many enemies soldiers and how well equipped should invade? A campaign of this type is expensive.
If it's something of such a scale as to seriously threaten Waterdeep, it will draw in all sorts of power brokers. Waterdeep may only be one city, but in FR, it's one of the higher-end ones. And not just because several epic-level characters have a vested interest in keeping it around. It has an extremely powerful navy and strong military, and can exert massive amounts of economic influence over Faerun. To wreck it is going to require an almost stupidly massive move on the part of the attackers, and the resultant power vacuum is going to be utterly devastating.

The last serious attempt to attack Waterdeep was when Iakhovas (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Iakhovas) (FRWiki is troublesome, but it seems to be accurate about him, at least) led a sahuagin army against them and the entirety of the Sword Coast to boot, and it was thrown back. Really, why are the drow/orcs/undead/whatever trying to pull this off? Waterdeep is kind of too valuable for them to consider it. Even an entire drow city (Menzoberranzan) had trouble handling Mithral Hall and its allies, and Waterdeep is larger by several orders of magnitude. Unless there are timeline issues, why not just slot this in as part of that larger battle against the sahuagin? Or does it have to be drow and orcs?

It just seems, I don't know, overkill. I completely agree with the concept of playing things up with the PCs defending it, and definitely not letting high-level NPCs, or the vast majority of Waterdeep's army (which, let us be honest, would flatten the entire party like you or I might squash a bug), overshadow the individual events, but something big enough to handle Waterdeep is going to have far-reaching consequences more suited to epic level play than the current level your players are at. I just don't see how you can make them take centre stage in defending the city without turning it into a convoluted mess. Not even the City of Shade (with all its Netherese firepower) was willing to attack Waterdeep outright.


What a Waterdeep general or leader would do? They should fight inside, outside? First protect the civilians, right? They make all the civilans abandon their homes and hide them or send them to the sea.
Civilians would stay indoors, or move to easily defended places within the city itself. The generals or leaders like Piergeiron? They'll be out leading and fighting. Mages band together in circles and start blowing up siege weapons, opposing commanders, entire regiments, that sort of thing.


Send the party, a small batallion to do something?
I'd use them as a crack assault team, along with other adventuring parties. Either that, or give them an important gate/pathway/whatever to protect (just avoid having them fight on the front lines if the threat is coming from anything like an open area, because that's where the Big Guns will be nova-ing anything that so much as twitches in a funny way). As mentioned, Waterdeep actually being under serious threat of doom from an invasion force with the PCs as the only chance to save it is an adventure hook I wouldn't use unless the party was a much higher level than it is (there are plenty of smaller cities around that you could use instead). However, considering that the average guard is between 1st and 3rd level at the most, a 6th level group of adventurers would be potent enough to warrant use as an assault team.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Pretty much what Alleran said. Give a call to Khelben & Co. and they should resolve the matter themselves.

[Elfinor]

We're supposed to be helping him plan for the battle, not finding new barriers to throw in his path :smalltongue:

If the raiding party involves Drow there are undoubtedly going to be several high level casters in their ranks - someone of Gromph Baenre's power, for example, would probably be able to tie up even a mage of Khelben's calibre for some time if properly prepared; possibly even kill him. Nearly every Drow city has epic or near-epic level casters in it, the only exception I can think of is Chaulssin - and their leaders are half shadow dragon. It would be quite an eerie feeling to have an angry horde appear at your doorstep and suddenly have all the epic level characters you were relying on... disappear. No one knows what's happened. The city is in chaos. It might be best if they were locked on another plane or something similar - this is something that Drow can conceivably accomplish. You are, of course, free to make your own heretofore unknown epic level enemies (I would love to see a team of Hobgoblin Wizard-Assassins) and have them do the same. If the horde is defeated, rescuing Waterdeep's finest would make an interesting quest for afterwards - they'd do it for the reward, if nothing else. You could justify the fact that the high level Drow (or whoever) casters are not present during the battle by making it necessary for them to renew the wards on wherever the prison is - epic level spellcasters will need to be countered.

A less elegant method would involve having the avatar of one or more gods getting summoned - they're statted out in Faiths and Pantheons. This could lock down a lot of people. Archdevils and Demon Lords probably would work out slightly better, but I prefer the previous approach.

Out of interest, what year are you working out of (if it's post spellplague things could change somewhat) and how well known are the PC's in the city? If they're well known - you could probably start this section having assassins of some sort coming after them in an attempt to get rid of other high level characters the Drow may have missed.

Afraid that's not much help for the battle itself, but hopefully that should help justify getting rid of higher level characters. Anyone trying to touch their stuff should still be fried by wards, make examples of some thieves to deter players - as necessary you can rule that a powerful item from say... Maskar Wands' stash is made available for some reason to suit whatever twisted purpose a DM such as yourself may have.

[Runestar]

The thing is, if you have read the Waterdeep splatbook, you will find that it is more than capable of defending itself. Their leader is a lv20 paladin. They have 2 chosens of mystra stationed there (who are able to call on other chosens at a moment's notice). They even have an adventuring party on call (sorta like a localised dnd version of justice league), giant golems, and a mythal to keep dragons out. Push come to shove, even villians like Halaster (lv30 mage) and the dragonmage (lv18 mage) won't mind chipping in to help as well.

Basically, whatever threat is capable of straining or overwhelming its defenses, your party has no chance of standing up to.

However, if you have access to the red hand of doom module, part of the adventure involves holding out against a seige from a group of hobgoblins and their monstrous allies, which may be exactly what you are looking for.

[HunterOfJello]

Buy a scroll to send a message to Khelben Blackstaff. Mission Complete!

[Alleran]

We're supposed to be helping him plan for the battle, not finding new barriers to throw in his path
True, and I did outline some things that he could do. It's just that attacking Waterdeep with an army big enough to put the city in serious danger of being destroyed is hard to justify at low levels if you're going to simultaneously have to get rid of every single epic-level character (which itself is an epic-level quest; to get rid of all of them at exactly the right time speaks to some serious firepower, if it isn't just dismissed outright as a plothole/deus ex machina). As was said by somebody else, I'd have picked a much smaller city or township to serve as the battlefield. It's not like there aren't plenty of them around. Work with what you've got, though, so I say assault team is probably easiest. You could even throw them at a point that needs defending from a particular wave of an assault, before moving on to hunt down other warbands that are undoubtedly roaming the city.

Although now that I think about it, if there are drow involved, either they'll stay in the shadows and hunt beneath the city in the sewers and Skullport, or the fight will take place at night.


If the raiding party involves Drow there are undoubtedly going to be several high level casters in their ranks - someone of Gromph Baenre's power, for example, would probably be able to tie up even a mage of Khelben's calibre for some time if properly prepared; possibly even kill him.
Gromph is rather powerful even for the drow (he's not the average, really), and yet I wouldn't put him on Khelben's level. The problem is that even if he can tie up Khelben for a while (presuming that we're not just playing rocket tag) before the Blackstaff atomises him, that's only one. Odds are that you'd need dozens of epic-level mages just to handle the wizards, clerics and similar who live in Waterdeep (and there are dozens of them who could be a credible threat), without trying to deal with Elminster and the others who will come to aid it from up and down the Sword Coast and elsewhere.

And as everything is piled on, the PCs are of steadily reduced importance, and the battle steadily increased scale (requiring a lot more background work to make it fit). Like I said, attacking Waterdeep and tying up all its epic or at least high level characters so the currently low-level PCs can conveniently be the only ones of influence left in the city is like trying to attack Io'lokar, or the assembled Dragons of Argonnessen, or the Circle of Eight (in its entirety), or attacking dragons in Shadowrun, or Fairy Queens in Dresden Files, or... well, you get the idea. It's something for higher levels of power.

Back on point, though, I don't think calling up more epic-level stuff to try and balance the equation is the right way to deal with Waterdeep's top-end defenders.


A less elegant method would involve having the avatar of one or more gods getting summoned - they're statted out in Faiths and Pantheons. This could lock down a lot of people. Archdevils and Demon Lords probably would work out slightly better, but I prefer the previous approach.
This kind of drags the battle away from the PCs. The big fight is happening between the epic characters and the avatar/archdevil/whatever. The PCs are just stuck killing mooks (either redshirts or mauveshirts) instead. Although trying to call up an avatar against Chosen of Mystra is asking for them to call up Mystra in response (if she doesn't show up entirely of her own accord to protect the power they've got stored in them). Either way, a fight with an avatar introduces many more problems in how everything will react to its presence.

[Psyren]

Put all the epic Sues on a massive bus, imo. In an unprecedented and completely unfathomable stratagem, the Zhentarim and the Red Wizards teamed up under Manshoon's banner, and are launching a separate assault that just happens to draw off all the high-level defenders. Khelben's hastily-scrawled apology letter nailed to the door of the PC's tavern is the only word they will have from him for the entire fight.

Or you can have some version of the Spellplague strike early or something. But whatever you do, don't let them participate.

[Unseenmal]

I'm a fan of this setup: Word Doc (http://www.enworld.org/forum/local_links.php?action=jump&catid=2&id=1)

It gives a simple, yet effective way for the battle to rage while your players do missions to sway the battle in one way or the other. I've used it to good effect in 2 campaigns so far. One I ran and another I gave it to the DM to try out. He loved it. And we did too as the players.

[Elfinor]

Gromph is rather powerful even for the drow (he's not the average, really), and yet I wouldn't put him on Khelben's level. The problem is that even if he can tie up Khelben for a while (presuming that we're not just playing rocket tag) before the Blackstaff atomises him, that's only one. I was referring to rocket tag. Tag Khelben first:smalltongue:

True, and I did outline some things that he could do. I know you did, I was more pointedly referring to this post:
Pretty much what Alleran said. Give a call to Khelben & Co. and they should resolve the matter themselves.Which wasn't exactly what you said. So, yes, not you.

He could change which city the fights in because you're right, there's little chance of one organisation being able to pull it off. So long as there is a chance, however, I think it would work as reasoning. It's not like he actually has to roll a d20 just to make sure; he's the DM goddammit - not some low-life PC scum. I'm more or less going to be running on the assumption that he's still running the campaign in Waterdeep because he can - I'll refrain from posting further ideas (after this post) until he posts again to see if he thinks your idea of not fighting in/around Waterdeep is what he wants. I agree that near-destroying almost any other city would be easier to fit into the setting and is probably more 'realistic' but I'm just trying to give him what he wants:smallbiggrin:

That said Fenryr, if my above scenario isn't your thing, here are some more:

Elf Magic:[insert Drow mage here] has rediscovered the use of elven high magic and uses that to eradicate and/or imprison the high level blowhards. I'm not entirely sure on how that Melarn mage received it but since he's Drow, I'll assume it's somewhat viable - and elven high magic is never used lightly so it's unlikely to be used again in the near future. The elven high magic approach may also work if the Eldreth Veluuthra level the same type of magic at the city - because it has the highest concentration of humans on the continent. They're hoping for the drow/hobgoblin/orc/undead invasion so that all the enemies of the elves will destroy each other.
A Wizard did it: Khelben and Larael pull all the high level casters together for great funtimes ritual to defend city - because it's to defend the city they even get Mr. Wands involved. Something goes terribly wrong! The ritual is interrupted because an infiltrator scuffed the ritual circle or someone sneezed at an inappropriate time. Everyone is imprisoned in a space between planes. This can work at either the beginning stages of an invasion (i.e. ritual to destroy army) or beforehand, the army invades because they believe the city is vulnerable. This still leaves the high level noncasters alive, but it makes things more viable.
Psyren's idea: The Spellplague strikes. Behold, the casters are annulled! This also affects the PC's though - your magus may struggle.
Inside Infiltrator: Khelben begins to go mad with delusions of grandeur a la Sammaster (but smarter), so he's been using the Moonstars to secretly infiltrate all the centers of power in Waterdeep and leave various objects there which then animate and kill/imprison the important people at an inappropriate time or he's replaced powerful people with simulacrums. A Moonstar defector could be a powerful ally, the PC's could be running around the city countering threats that Khelben had previously placed around the city. This could be anyone, but Khelben's the one who has access to a morally ambiguous secret society - so he's probably the best choice. You could also try Greater Doppelganger infiltration.
And remember: even Harry Dresden can threaten a Faerie Queen. You can make up an Achilles Heel for anyone. The possibilities are endless.
Either way, a fight with an avatar introduces many more problems in how everything will react to its presence. I did say it was inelegant for a reason:smallwink: But yeah, it would have been better not to post the suggestion at all.

Again, sorry, I'm not much good at coming up with scenarios for the actual battle. Everyone (who has suggested things) seems to be coming up with some good stuff though.

[Fenryr]

Geez, my head. Too much information and ideas to handle in a single minute. I'm very grateful with all this contributions.

I know that high level NPCs exist in FR, that's why I don't want them there. Several ideas all of you gave me will be useful here. I may even make a small plague or something, a prelude to the future.

I will study the .doc.

Thanks again for all your posts.

[Alleran]

Elf Magic:[insert Drow mage here] has rediscovered the use of elven high magic and uses that to eradicate and/or imprison the high level blowhards. I'm not entirely sure on how that Melarn mage received it but since he's Drow, I'll assume it's somewhat viable - and elven high magic is never used lightly so it's unlikely to be used again in the near future.
Elven High Magic, in terms of the setting, IIRC requires that you be an elf, and that you have the approval of Corellon Larethian and Mystra together (Mystra because it goes partly through the Weave and thus requires her approval like all spells do, Corellon as a safety measure so it isn't abused... though if it's a safety measure, he allows some really weird things through...). As long as those two are on board with what you want, it should work. The Eldreth Veluuthra couldn't swing that requirement, I suspect, because it's explicitly stated that Corellon isn't backing them, and Mystra (being NG, not to mention her interest in the situation) wouldn't support it either.

Shadow Weave, maybe (as long as Shar was agreeable, though the Eldreth Veluuthra would never worship her owing to their belief system, which would then rebound back on them and block Shadow Weave access because they won't acknowledge her). But interactions between the Shadow Weave and equally large concentrations of Weave energy (especially in a more pure form, such as some energy-based spells or silver fire against Shadow Weave magic) tend to be explosive. As in, tear a massive hole in the fabric of the multiverse explosive. And Waterdeep is overlaid with several mythal-like spells, persistent magical fields, interdimensional spaces formed by magic, has Undermountain beneath it, and a slew of portals and other stuff scattered around. It's going to make a really, really big bang if it goes. Probably not an option unless you're the Omnicidal Maniac variant of bad guy.


The ritual is interrupted because an infiltrator scuffed the ritual circle or someone sneezed at an inappropriate time.
I can see this happening, maybe. It did in one of the novels - Khelben was stunned by a magical backlash that came at precisely the wrong time, and Laeral had to take him with her to some private demiplane to heal up (it was implied that it had the fast time trait, though conveniently not fast enough to get them back before the end of the book). It reeks of deus ex machina, but it's possible. I highly doubt that they'd snag everybody in the one place, though. In a city-wide defense grid, you'd spread out your high-level casters. Maybe have the epic ones leading circles of non-epic ones, so you maximise their presence on a widespread battlefield. You wouldn't get them all, but you'd get some of them (which is a start, but likely won't grab an appreciable enough number to make a significant difference).

Still, being able to wield the kind of magic to take them all out of commission then leaves you with a group of 6th level PCs, a city that has zero leaders available (and no real inclination to trust your group, plus no way of getting their communications network up and running again), and a massive army backed by spellcasters strong enough to pull it off in the first place. It removes one problem, but screws you with the result (i.e. now that those epic good guys have been removed from play, how do you stop what they were keeping from squashing you?).

The Phaerimm might have the magical muscle to do something on this scale, but depending on when this is set, they're either locked up behind the Sharnwall (with maybe twoscore hiding out in Myth Drannor), or so viciously depleted by war with Shade that they're too busy licking their wounds to act out again, especially against Waterdeep. And including Phaerimm in anything is an icky prospect.

You really do need a massive coalition of multiple organisations to bring down something like Waterdeep (and its associated smaller powers). I really can't think of anything much that's both close enough geographically and has the strength to do it. Larloch is the only one that comes to mind, but he doesn't have the inclination, so that rules him out.

Waterdeep has the benefits of not just being home to a bunch of high-level characters, but high-level characters who are willing to put aside differences that they might have (if any) and work together to defend the city from a common threat. It's less a question of winning as it is how much you're willing to sacrifice to accomplish the goal (and if you're willing to deal with the fallout afterwards), and thus if it's really worth doing in the first place when subterfuge (the eternal cold war that many of FR's NPCs are locked in) will often work much better in the long run. The same is true for something like Io'lokar.


Khelben begins to go mad with delusions of grandeur a la Sammaster (but smarter)
He already is insane. :smallwink:


And remember: even Harry Dresden can threaten a Faerie Queen.
Technically, it was the Za-Lord's Guard who did the work. Dresden doesn't believe in fairies. :smallbiggrin:

I was more referring to the Mab and Titania level, though, rather than the Ladies.


I know that high level NPCs exist in FR, that's why I don't want them there.
Well, Waterdeep really wasn't the best choice for that, to be quite honest. I like the Border Kingdoms for this reason, if you don't want to bother dealing with it. You can just about rampage to your heart's content down there. There's certainly a much smaller concentration of high-level characters, and it doesn't take nearly as much loophole abuse and gymnastics to get around them as it does for a place like Waterdeep.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Geez, my head. Too much information and ideas to handle in a single minute. I'm very grateful with all this contributions.

I know that high level NPCs exist in FR, that's why I don't want them there. Several ideas all of you gave me will be useful here. I may even make a small plague or something, a prelude to the future.

I will study the .doc.

Thanks again for all your posts.

That's impossible. IIRC, Blackstaff makes his headquarters in Waterdeep. The crime lords don't want their city overrun. There's the seven lords of Waterdeep. The place is full of low- and mid-level full casters. Every barkeep in the city is a former adventurer.

[Fenryr]

After some quick thinking, now I have two options:

1) Introduce a small Spellplague. Tell Mystra has been attacked and weakened. So, any arcane with a caster level beyond 10 is affected. The more powerful the caster is, the more arcane magic he consumes, therefore, the weaker arcane casters still function.

2) Move everything to Neverwinter or something similar.

[Elfinor]

Elven High Magic, in terms of the setting, IIRC requires that you be an elf, and that you have the approval of Corellon Larethian and Mystra togetherHuh, there you go. I know that one drow was able to cast High Magic (Q'arlynd Melarn) but he was a follower of Elistraee's and used it to wipe out Kiaransalee, a thumbs up from both big deities if I've ever seen one. I've never read the Lady Penitent Trilogy so I don't know any other details.


It reeks of deus ex machina, but it's possible... I highly doubt that they'd snag everybody in the one place, though. I meant everyone involved in the ritual (maybe even a mythal one, like what actually kills Khelben later on) basically snags themselves - thus solving the 'epic must defeat epic' problem. We all know how dangerously exact rituals need to be: one mistake, everyone goes *poof*. It does reek of deus ex machina - but it beats 'rocks fall everyone dies'. Marginally. It is as you said, Waterdeep. Pulling anything less than a Deus out the Machina would probably be unsatisfactory and, worst of all, a strain on my limited Latin vocabulary.
Technically, it was the Za-Lord's Guard who did the work. Dresden doesn't believe in fairies. :smallbiggrin:Well played:smallcool:

[Hiro Protagonest]

After some quick thinking, now I have two options:

1) Introduce a small Spellplague. Tell Mystra has been attacked and weakened. So, any arcane with a caster level beyond 10 is affected. The more powerful the caster is, the more arcane magic he consumes, therefore, the weaker arcane casters still function.

2) Move everything to Neverwinter or something similar.

There's still the high level clerics that are the leaders of the temples in Waterdeep. And the 9th level wizards with their Cloudkills. And the 5th level wizards with their Fireballs and Lightning Bolts. And the high level fighters and paladins warblades and crusaders.

Neverwinter probably still has mid-level guys.

[Elfinor]

There's still the high level clerics that are the leaders of the temples in Waterdeep. And the 9th level wizards with their Cloudkills. And the 5th level wizards with their Fireballs and Lightning Bolts. And the high level fighters and paladins warblades and crusaders.

Neverwinter probably still has mid-level guys.Oh my, you are a wet blanket, aren't you? It's still far more manageable and would allow the PC's to have a greater impact on the battle - they don't necessarily need to carry the battle. To address the clerical problem - gods draw on the Weave too. IIRC Midnight actually threatened to ban Tempus from the weave during the Avatar... Quintet. It shouldn't be too much of a stretch to imagine a minor time of troubles rehash resulting from a minor spellplague. I have no doubt the horde would have clerics and adepts aplenty in any case.

I highly doubt Waterdeep's generals and resident adventurers have been viewing Char Op threads, so I think we can safely say they'll have fighters, paladins and warriors - let's not forget that not everybody is a mid level NPC with PC classes.

[Alleran]

After some quick thinking, now I have two options:

1) Introduce a small Spellplague. Tell Mystra has been attacked and weakened. So, any arcane with a caster level beyond 10 is affected. The more powerful the caster is, the more arcane magic he consumes, therefore, the weaker arcane casters still function.

2) Move everything to Neverwinter or something similar.
I'd move it to Neverwinter, personally (better there than Silverymoon). Even the Ten Towns of Icewind Dale might be helpful, if you're willing to potentially put up with Drizzt depending on what year this campaign is set in (he's not always there). If you're not a fan of the Border Kingdoms, that is (it's a fair way away from the North, after all).

Neverwinter will still have mid-level characters and a couple of high-level ones (I know of at least one or two dragons who hide out in human form there), but it is on the whole much easier to deal with than Waterdeep (if you've ever played the first Neverwinter Nights game, you'll note that a fairly low-level adventurer - at the time - was central to helping the city, with most of the high-level ones working behind the scenes rather than out and about fixing everything themselves).

Especially since the mini-Spellplague concept is much more a plot device, and does nothing to deal with the dragons, high-level fighter-class characters, and other such individuals who make the city their home. It'll also have far-reaching implications for the rest of the setting that I doubt you want to deal with.


To address the clerical problem - gods draw on the Weave too.
Only while in Realmspace or Mystra's own realm, AFAIK. And Sharran Adepts don't (though the Spellplague also took the Shadow Weave with it). It's canon that the Weave is only the best and most efficient way of using magic in FR. Gods could theoretically grant magic to their followers directly, but it would be a little bit like using an email program that only sends one email at a time, as opposed to the Weave, which has a handy "mass email" automated function included with it.