Classic 0-Level Challenge: Virtue

[missmvicious]

I ask this question as much as I get asked:
"What good is Virtue as a spell?"

Truth is, I love using 0-level Spells, but it'll be a cold day in Baator before I prepare Virtue unless I have a really good reason for it. I mean seriously, how is that 1 temporary HP going to be the difference between winning and losing a battle on ANY given day?

Well... I found a use for Virtue. You can't get away with it often, and you may have to clear it with your DM, but I think I'm wickedly clever for coming up with this:

Torture and interrogation...

Torture a captured enemy (whether he's willing to talk or not) with a weapon which causes bleeding, or reduce them to -1 HP some other way, so they know you're serious, then stabilize them with Virtue. It's only temporary HP, so it won't actually stabilize the wound like Cure Minor or a Heal check would, so now you've got a time-factor on when the victim will start dying again. Any fair minded DM should realize that this would add a sizable buff to your Intimidate check, so roll and hope for a high number. If the victim has any desire to get out of this alive, they'll sing like a canary until the spell wears off and they slip back into unconsciousness. Then, to restore some good Karma and keep your alignment, I highly recommend healing the poor fellow and submitting him to the proper authorities, or whatever it is you agreed to do with him if he talked.

It's odd that Virtue could be so useful in such a vile way, but if the cause were good enough, I suppose such an act wouldn't even threaten you're alignment, as long as it was done as a last resort. Still, I wouldn't mind hearing what other clever spell-casters have done with Virtue in the past. And no, I don't want to hear about how useless the spell is. We already know that. I'm interested in hearing from inventive and resourceful players who know how to get the most out of every spell.

And yes, I know this dead horse has been beaten into glue, but I never get tired of the subject for some reason.

[Psyren]

The problem with this scenario is that all of the spell's utility is dependent on your DM. Because no two DMs are alike, what is reasonable to yours may not be allowed by another, and a bonus to intimidate checks is not part of the spell as written.

If you can get something like this to fly though, then yes, you've made lemons into lemonade and should be commended.

[missmvicious]

The problem with this scenario is that all of the spell's utility is dependent on your DM.

Thanks! :D

You've got me there, though. I've had DMs who reward creativity and DMs who downright punish it, which is why it's always a good idea to clear the innovative use of 0-level spells with a DM. Some other clever uses of 0-Level spells that myself, or others in campaigns I've been in are as follows:

Lullaby: to make an unsuspecting Dire Boar relax, so the bard could gain a bonus on his Handle Animal check. He turned that Dire Boar into his mount... became quite a BAMF after that.

Light: to shine on the helmet of an attacker, effectively blinding him and making his head an extra clear target for called shots.

Prestidigitation: to create a "painting" on a foot of canvas and sell it to an unwitting merchant

Prestidigitation: to make a wizard's dagger invisible when attacking with it. A +2 to attack was awarded, since it surprised the defender.

Prestidigitation: to make wooden chips look like GP to bribe a guard with.

Prestidigitation: to soil the eyes of a Drider to give the rest of our team a concealment bonus.

Ghost Sound: to shatter gossamer-width crystalline spider webbing.

I've tried most of them myself with different DMs. Most of the time, they'll allow it. But I've had DMs forbid me to use a spell for it's originally intended purpose, so I guess that's just part of the game.

Most people, DMs included, think that the DM is god in D&D... that's not true. (S)he is much more than that. The DM commands the gods...

I hope more people will pipe in with a clever use of Virtue. It's so easy to write that spell off as a worthless space-filler. But I won't give up.

[No brains]

Temporary hp is given to creatures of all power sources evenly, so if you really need to help out a human, a zombie, or a warforged, I guess that 1 crappy hit point is versatile...

[Ravens_cry]

Light can be a wonderful spell for reasons besides lighting the place. If, for some reason you need to separate the group, like coordinating attacks from different directions, casting light on a pebble and dismissing it when you want to engage is one way to do it.

[missmvicious]

That's pretty clever! I use Message for that purpose more often than not, but I suppose Light, or Dancing Lights would work even better.

What tricks can you come up with for Virtue, though?

It could probably work to "buff up" a wizard or sorcerer's familiar, I suppose. I've played with a surprising number of casters who aren't the least bit hesitant to throw their raven or bat into the fray. Due to their high DEX mod, their AC is usually pretty high, but the price of failure can be big. 1 or 2 extra HP for the little fella' might mean the difference between getting disabled and bleeding out if the encounter turns sour.

Anything else?

[No brains]

If you're taking damage from exertion, starvation, or dehydration; 1hp can be the difference between life or death. Also, the hp gained isn't 'restored' by the spell, so you can keep yourself walking with magic and not fuel.

[missmvicious]

I hadn't thought of it that way.

I thought Cure spells could deal with that in a pinch. I don't play a lot of survival campaigns, so it never came up.

Now I've got a new 0-level trick up my sleeve in case my companions and I need to force march through a desert.

[Coidzor]

You've got me there, though. I've had DMs who reward creativity and DMs who downright punish it,

Yeah, but those ones are why you keep wet noodles on hand. :smallamused:

[Pink]

There is one pathfinder oracle mystery that allows the oracle to slowly switch damage with party members. Basically, on the oracles turn, each linked ally heals 5 hp, and the oracle takes the accumulated damage. Using virtue can make the healing process more efficient, by turning every 5 Dmg into 4

[missmvicious]

ROFL!

I try to be patient with difficult DMs when I can be. Sometimes DMs are drunk off the power, but usually, they're bad because they're learning or they're trying too hard to make the "perfect" campaign. I've only given up on one campaign due to irreconcilable differences with the DM, and honestly, I wasn't the only one, or the first one to do so in that campaign.

[missmvicious]

There is one pathfinder oracle mystery that allows the oracle to slowly switch damage with party members. Basically, on the oracles turn, each linked ally heals 5 hp, and the oracle takes the accumulated damage. Using virtue can make the healing process more efficient, by turning every 5 Dmg into 4

Brilliant!

I've never played Pathfinder, but I've heard it's great... sort of what would happen if they made D&D 4e correctly. (Sorry, 4e fans... I just don't see what's so great about it.)

[ericgrau]

Or at low levels before every trap you can go through the guidance, resistance, virtue sequence for +2 saves, +1 HP, then ready action to heal if something goes wrong. Every little bit helps this early.

[Gotterdammerung]

I once had an adventure where we had to check out a warehouse in the docks. I asked the GM if the warehouse had windows. He said it did but they were dusty and didn't look like they let any light in. I decided to clean them with prestidigitation b4 we entered the warehouse. When we opened the double doors we caught 4 rogues trying to scramble for some place to hide. The warehouse didn't have much stuff in it and they were using the darkness from the dirty windows to stage their ambush. Go go 0 lvl spells.

I've also done a 25 point acid splash one time off a crit on a warmage i was playing.



As far as breaking virtue goes. I would say make it into a permanent magic item.
Shouldn't be too expensive. The benefits would totally depend on how the GM reacted to it.

But some possibilities are:

The item effectively raises your max hp by 1
or
The item gives you 1 temp hit point a day
or
The item constantly gives you 1 temp hit point effectively givings you DR1/- that works on all damage even magical.

[missmvicious]

But some possibilities are:

The item effectively raises your max hp by 1
or
The item gives you 1 temp hit point a day
or
The item constantly gives you 1 temp hit point effectively givings you DR1/- that works on all damage even magical.

I love it!

200 XP for you!

[Qwertystop]

Use it for emergencies. Specifically, if you have no better healing spells, that can be enough to hold someone over until you can get to someone who does, or find a healing potion, or get out your Blessed Bandages.

Basically, use it when you don't need the healing to last longer, or when you have nothing else to stabilize with.

Or to make someone explode a tiny bit sooner on the Plane of Positive Energy.

Or if an enemy has an attack scaling by current HP, not temporary HP.

Or if an ally has an ability that scales by HP, including temporary HP, and you need the 1 point to push it into rounding up to the next increment (bypassing their max).

[No brains]

One of the major problems with virtue for 'emergency healing' is that cure minor wounds can give you a hit point that can last longer than a minute. That's why virtue is *especially* useless.

[Mockingbird]

The most powerful character in my party was at 1 HP, then he got poked for 1 damage. I took a move action to keep him upright, the cleric cast Virtue, I threw a bomb for 3d6, and he fireburst at the enemies. The damage combined was enough to kill them. :D

[Diefje]

Cast virtue, wait 8 rounds, cast Harm, run away cackling maniacly

[missmvicious]

I agree that Virtue is especially useless, but I've read some pretty great ideas about how to polish that turd.

I'm glad I came to this board. :)

I honestly don't know why they put Virtue in there, except for the possible fact that the effect stacks, so even at level 1, a Cleric can imbue himself or some other meat tank with 4 extra HP before marching into battle, which is actually pretty nice, now that I think about it, but it's kind of a tragic waste of a 0-level slot considering how handy those other 0-level spells can be all by themselves.

Even so, I'm sure we all feel that you use Virtue because you're bound and determined to use it... not because it's the right tool for the job. But I'm saving some of these ideas for the next time I play a 3.5 campaign, which might not happen again, since all my friends are making the switch to 4e. But I can always hope...

[missmvicious]

Cast virtue, wait 8 rounds, cast Harm, run away cackling maniacly

LOL!

I'd give role-playing XP for that. :D

[No brains]

... the possible fact that the effect stacks...

Temp hp does not stack well. :smallfrown: If it's from the same source, it overlaps.

[missmvicious]

Well, that sucks.

[Lord.Sorasen]

Ok, how about this.

Get some zombies as a dread necromancer. Take the feat that makes them explode with negative energy at death. Then, knock them to 1 hp via virtue. With this you can have timed explosives. Do it with tiny little mosquito zombies and have them fly through the smallest spaces, allowing you to get a surprise strike through walls.

[missmvicious]

Ok, how about this.

Get some zombies as a dread necromancer. Take the feat that makes them explode with negative energy at death. Then, knock them to 1 hp via virtue. With this you can have timed explosives. Do it with tiny little mosquito zombies and have them fly through the smallest spaces, allowing you to get a surprise strike through walls.

BRILLIANT! You, sir, gain a level's worth of XP. Seriously... best use of a Virtue spell, I have ever heard.

And it totally takes you by surprise because it's such such a puny little spell, especially for such an intimidating Class.

Have you ever used that in a campaign before? I'm dying to know how something like that would work out. If I were the DM, I'd give out bonus XP just for amusing me with such a clever tactic.

[dextercorvia]

Ok, how about this.

Get some zombies as a dread necromancer. Take the feat that makes them explode with negative energy at death. Then, knock them to 1 hp via virtue. With this you can have timed explosives. Do it with tiny little mosquito zombies and have them fly through the smallest spaces, allowing you to get a surprise strike through walls.

How do you leave them with only the 1 hp from Virtue? Temp HP are lost first, and if you take them to 0 first.... <boom>

[Zaq]

Maybe it could be used to trigger effects that trigger on targeting allies? Magic of the Land (RotW), maybe, if you use the not-quite-RAW "0 spell level = 1/2" precedent, or something like that.

Wait, I've got it! Toughening Transmutation, from CMag! That would do it! Now it not only gives 1 THP but also gives you or the target DR 5/magic for one round! There we go!

[Cruiser1]

Temp hp does not stack well. :smallfrown: If it's from the same source, it overlaps.
One advantage of the spell Virtue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/virtue.htm) is that it's a source of temp HP. If you want as many temp HP as possible (say you're buffing for a major battle) then you want as many different ways of getting temp HP as possible. If you're about to kick down the door to the BBEG's throne room, might as well cast Virtue beforehand, to have 10 rounds with 1 extra HP.

If you have a cheesy build that abuses spell slots and metamagic, then you can give yourself an Extended Persistant Ocular Virtue, and have that temp HP last for two days instead of just one minute. :smallbiggrin:

[Qwertystop]

If you have a cheesy build that abuses spell slots and metamagic, then you can give yourself an Extended Persistant Ocular Virtue, and have that temp HP last for two days instead of just one minute. :smallbiggrin:

Or until you get hit.

[Zaq]

Or until you get hit.

Hmmm. Virtue doesn't say that the spell itself ends when you lose the THP, does it? You'd still ping on Detect Magic as having Virtue affecting you, even if the THP it gives you has already been whacked away. Is there anything weird we can do with this? Maybe crank up the CL to an unholy level and use it as a dispel buffer (since the area version of Dispel Magic only gets one successful dispel per critter)? Probably wouldn't be worth it, since if the CL is high enough that it gets targeted first, it's also high enough that it's unlikely to get dispelled . . . it's a new approach, at least.

[Siosilvar]

Hmmm. Virtue doesn't say that the spell itself ends when you lose the THP, does it? You'd still ping on Detect Magic as having Virtue affecting you, even if the THP it gives you has already been whacked away. Is there anything weird we can do with this? Maybe crank up the CL to an unholy level and use it as a Dispel buffer?

...huh. You're right. False life is the other temporary HP spell, and it includes the "or until discharged" clause. Virtue doesn't.

[Zaq]

...huh. You're right. False life is the other temporary HP spell, and it includes the "or until discharged" clause. Virtue doesn't.

Interestingly enough, False Life is the big arcane THP spell, while Virtue is divine. Aid, Virtue's divine big brother, also does not include "or until discharged" . . . but then, it also has an effect beyond THP.

Vigor (the psionic power, not the spell) doesn't include "until discharged," either. It's just False Life, from what I can tell.

What do you make of that, folks?

[missmvicious]

*Head spins*

You guys are great!

I can't believe I'm still hearing great new uses for Virtue! I thought surely that tap would be dry by now...

Keep them coming. I've taken Virtue as far as I can go, and I thought I'd taken it pretty far, but you guys have turned it into a dire wolf in sheep's clothing.

I'm impressed.

[Anderlith]

With one Mage Hand I destroyed an pair of ettercap's lair.

[faceroll]

According to the BoVD rules on torture, if a victim is brought to 0 HP or lower during torture, then subsequently healed back up and tortured again, the circumstance bonus to intimidate from a particular torture device is doubled.

[Zaq]

Teeeeeechnically, you could cast it on an enemy and use it as fodder for one of those "every spell on you hurts you more" attacks (Kaleidoscopic Doom, Reaving Dispel, etc.), but since you have to touch them and they'd get a save (against a level 0 spell, no less), I can't see any time when that would actually be worth the action. Ever.

[big teej]

I ask this question as much as I get asked:
"What good is Virtue as a spell?"

Truth is, I love using 0-level Spells, but it'll be a cold day in Baator before I prepare Virtue unless I have a really good reason for it. I mean seriously, how is that 1 temporary HP going to be the difference between winning and losing a battle on ANY given day?

Well... I found a use for Virtue. You can't get away with it often, and you may have to clear it with your DM, but I think I'm wickedly clever for coming up with this:

Torture and interrogation...

Torture a captured enemy (whether he's willing to talk or not) with a weapon which causes bleeding, or reduce them to -1 HP some other way, so they know you're serious, then stabilize them with Virtue. It's only temporary HP, so it won't actually stabilize the wound like Cure Minor or a Heal check would, so now you've got a time-factor on when the victim will start dying again. Any fair minded DM should realize that this would add a sizable buff to your Intimidate check, so roll and hope for a high number. If the victim has any desire to get out of this alive, they'll sing like a canary until the spell wears off and they slip back into unconsciousness. Then, to restore some good Karma and keep your alignment, I highly recommend healing the poor fellow and submitting him to the proper authorities, or whatever it is you agreed to do with him if he talked.

It's odd that Virtue could be so useful in such a vile way, but if the cause were good enough, I suppose such an act wouldn't even threaten you're alignment, as long as it was done as a last resort. Still, I wouldn't mind hearing what other clever spell-casters have done with Virtue in the past. And no, I don't want to hear about how useless the spell is. We already know that. I'm interested in hearing from inventive and resourceful players who know how to get the most out of every spell.

And yes, I know this dead horse has been beaten into glue, but I never get tired of the subject for some reason.

personally, if I were DMing, you'd take an alignment hit for that... and earn chaos and/or evil points just for seriously considering it....


I once had an adventure where we had to check out a warehouse in the docks. I asked the GM if the warehouse had windows. He said it did but they were dusty and didn't look like they let any light in. I decided to clean them with prestidigitation b4 we entered the warehouse. When we opened the double doors we caught 4 rogues trying to scramble for some place to hide. The warehouse didn't have much stuff in it and they were using the darkness from the dirty windows to stage their ambush. Go go 0 lvl spells.

I've also done a 25 point acid splash one time off a crit on a warmage i was playing.



As far as breaking virtue goes. I would say make it into a permanent magic item.
Shouldn't be too expensive. The benefits would totally depend on how the GM reacted to it.

But some possibilities are:

The item effectively raises your max hp by 1
or
The item gives you 1 temp hit point a day
or
The item constantly gives you 1 temp hit point effectively givings you DR1/- that works on all damage even magical.

I approve of this idea.... I must now create a "virtue ring" :smallwink:

how much would it reduce the price if the wearer had to remain chaste for it to work? :smalltongue:




Ok, how about this.

Get some zombies as a dread necromancer. Take the feat that makes them explode with negative energy at death. Then, knock them to 1 hp via virtue. With this you can have timed explosives. Do it with tiny little mosquito zombies and have them fly through the smallest spaces, allowing you to get a surprise strike through walls.

this is great. I'd let it fly at least once.

[missmvicious]

personally, if I were DMing, you'd take an alignment hit for that... and earn chaos and/or evil points just for seriously considering it....

Ouch... but fair enough. My CG Cleric once had to aid in interrogating a Drider captive. I had to cast Zone of Truth and keep healing him every time he fell unconscious. It was an unpleasant ordeal, but the information we received from it saved a lot of lives, so the DM didn't ping me with an alignment change for it.

I seriously wouldn't have blamed me if he did, and possibly sent me on a Quest to realign myself with Kord for using such a cowardly tactic. Though you could argue that the tactic is not necessarily evil if it's for a good cause... more Neutral Good, or maybe Lawful Neutral if you were just following orders.

[Fouredged Sword]

Technically you lose HP, rather than receive damage.

In theory, a celerity followed by a vigor would give you a HP, allowing you to save an ally who is at -300 normal hp, because for as long as that temp HP lasts he still has one!

Could very well keep someone alive long enough to get to a healing item, or alive long enough for a nicer back from the dead spell.

Also available as a really cheap contingent spell.

[Twibby]

Not related to Virtue, but it's still a use of a level 0 spell.

I managed to convince my DM to let me use Message as a phonetap spell. There's no Saving Throw or Spell Resistance, so the idea is that you point at your target(s) as per the spell, and then make a innocent sound, like a bird call or the like. That's your 'Message' to the target, and from there, you can stay silent while they talk, inadvertently transmitting everything they're saying to you.

[Qwertystop]

Not related to Virtue, but it's still a use of a level 0 spell.

I managed to convince my DM to let me use Message as a phonetap spell. There's no Saving Throw or Spell Resistance, so the idea is that you point at your target(s) as per the spell, and then make a innocent sound, like a bird call or the like. That's your 'Message' to the target, and from there, you can stay silent while they talk, inadvertently transmitting everything they're saying to you.

Nice!

Another 0-level spell:
Summon Instrument. Boost your strength really high, fly up a bit (Have to use items if you're not multiclass), over your enemy. Have a grand piano, cello, something like that appear in your hands. Drop it.

[Fouredged Sword]

Now we need a bard hulking hurler gestalt build.

[Gotterdammerung]

Technically you lose HP, rather than receive damage.

In theory, a celerity followed by a vigor would give you a HP, allowing you to save an ally who is at -300 normal hp, because for as long as that temp HP lasts he still has one!

Could very well keep someone alive long enough to get to a healing item, or alive long enough for a nicer back from the dead spell.

Also available as a really cheap contingent spell.

-300+1temp HP = -299

Also technically you lose HP AND receive damage. That's why a 11th lvl barbarian at 1 HP dies when his rage ends. Or why a 6th lvl wizard at 1 hp dies when his bear's endurance gets dispelled.

You track and keep up with your current damage total.

[No brains]

Ok, how about this.

Get some zombies as a dread necromancer. Take the feat that makes them explode with negative energy at death. Then, knock them to 1 hp via virtue. With this you can have timed explosives. Do it with tiny little mosquito zombies and have them fly through the smallest spaces, allowing you to get a surprise strike through walls.

I drank a lot of soda and came up with a way to make this viable!

1.Make a zombie of a 1HD creature or a skeleton of a 2HD creature. You now have a 2HD minion.
2.Beat your slave until they are either at 11 or 1 hp (depending on how exactly the next step works) and cast virtue on them.
3.Now, find a way to make them lose a hit die (some magic items like a sunblade confer negative levels as long as they are held) they now have 0 normal hp, but 1 temporary hp, allowing them to become one minute time bombs!

[Slipperychicken]

Nice!

Another 0-level spell:
Summon Instrument. Boost your strength really high, fly up a bit (Have to use items if you're not multiclass), over your enemy. Have a grand piano, cello, something like that appear in your hands. Drop it.

If it were up to me, your alignment would go right down the tubes for doing that to a cello (...maybe it was a viola :smallbiggrin:).


SRD
This spell summons one handheld musical instrument of your choice. This instrument appears in your hands or at your feet (your choice). The instrument is typical for its type. Only one instrument appears per casting, and it will play only for you. You can’t summon an instrument too large to be held in two hands.

Sadly, neither pianos nor cellos are handheld. Although the latter part of the spell doesn't specify "the caster's hands", so you can totally get a colossal-sized Tuba or Euphonium or something, have it appear at your feet so you don't even need to touch it.

[Amphetryon]

If it were up to me, your alignment would go right down the tubes for doing that to a cello (...maybe it was a viola :smallbiggrin:).



Sadly, neither pianos nor cellos are handheld. Although the latter part of the spell doesn't specify "the caster's hands", so you can totally get a colossal-sized Tuba or Euphonium or something, have it appear at your feet so you don't even need to touch it.
Use a Sousaphone. Bonus points if the target ends up stuck in the instrument's bell.

[Qwertystop]

I'd call a piano handheld for a really big creature. It'd be like those little mini-pianos (maybe 10 keys, each as wide as a fingernail, sound made by a little strip of springy metal), except for someone really big. A cello would be a Cloud Giant's violin.

[Daftendirekt]

How do you leave them with only the 1 hp from Virtue? Temp HP are lost first, and if you take them to 0 first.... <boom>

+1 on this...

[No brains]

I drank a lot of soda and came up with a way to make this viable!

1.Make a zombie of a 1HD creature or a skeleton of a 2HD creature. You now have a 2HD minion.
2.Beat your slave until they are either at 11 or 1 hp (depending on how exactly the next step works) and cast virtue on them.
3.Now, find a way to make them lose a hit die (some magic items like a sunblade confer negative levels as long as they are held) they now have 0 normal hp, but 1 temporary hp, allowing them to become one minute time bombs!

Has anyone else looked at this to evaluate if this is even correct?

[dextercorvia]

Has anyone else looked at this to evaluate if this is even correct?

It doesn't work. A negative level also causes the creature to lose 5 hp, and temp hp are lost first.

[kjones]

Thanks! :D

You've got me there, though. I've had DMs who reward creativity and DMs who downright punish it, which is why it's always a good idea to clear the innovative use of 0-level spells with a DM. Some other clever uses of 0-Level spells that myself, or others in campaigns I've been in are as follows:

Lullaby: to make an unsuspecting Dire Boar relax, so the bard could gain a bonus on his Handle Animal check. He turned that Dire Boar into his mount... became quite a BAMF after that.

Light: to shine on the helmet of an attacker, effectively blinding him and making his head an extra clear target for called shots.

Prestidigitation: to create a "painting" on a foot of canvas and sell it to an unwitting merchant

Prestidigitation: to make a wizard's dagger invisible when attacking with it. A +2 to attack was awarded, since it surprised the defender.

Prestidigitation: to make wooden chips look like GP to bribe a guard with.

Prestidigitation: to soil the eyes of a Drider to give the rest of our team a concealment bonus.

Ghost Sound: to shatter gossamer-width crystalline spider webbing.

I've tried most of them myself with different DMs. Most of the time, they'll allow it. But I've had DMs forbid me to use a spell for it's originally intended purpose, so I guess that's just part of the game.

Most people, DMs included, think that the DM is god in D&D... that's not true. (S)he is much more than that. The DM commands the gods...

I hope more people will pipe in with a clever use of Virtue. It's so easy to write that spell off as a worthless space-filler. But I won't give up.

Some of these don't work with the spell as written. Light is range touch - how was the wizard touching the attacker's helmet? Ghost Sound is a figment, so it doesn't actually create sound waves - its targets just think it does - so it couldn't affect a physical object. The lengths to which DMs will allow you to take Prestidigitation obviously varies a lot, but with regards to the painting example, the spell description does say that any objects made with Prestidigitation are "obviously fake", and I'd hope that if a DM allowed you to target a living creature with it, they'd at least allow a saving throw.

[dextercorvia]

Some of these don't work with the spell as written. Light is range touch - how was the wizard touching the attacker's helmet? Ghost Sound is a figment, so it doesn't actually create sound waves - its targets just think it does - so it couldn't affect a physical object. The lengths to which DMs will allow you to take Prestidigitation obviously varies a lot, but with regards to the painting example, the spell description does say that any objects made with Prestidigitation are "obviously fake", and I'd hope that if a DM allowed you to target a living creature with it, they'd at least allow a saving throw.




1. Prestidigitation: to create a "painting" on a foot of canvas and sell it to an unwitting merchant

2. Prestidigitation: to make a wizard's dagger invisible when attacking with it. A +2 to attack was awarded, since it surprised the defender.

3. Prestidigitation: to make wooden chips look like GP to bribe a guard with.




Finally, a prestidigitation lacks the power to duplicate any other spell effects.

1. Fabricate
2. Invisibility
3. Fools gold (also the obviously fake clause)

[kjones]

1. Fabricate
2. Invisibility
3. Fools gold (also the obviously fake clause)

Yeah, this sort of thing always bugs me. If that's the kind of game you want to play, then that's fine, more power to you. But I played in a 4e game once with a changeling player where the DM drastically broadened the changeling's disguise ability (basically, the changeling could make itself look like non-humanoid monsters, and could alter the appearance of its garb). He then complained constantly about how the disguise ability was "overpowered" and "broken". If you want to play in a game where a 0th level spell can replicate 2nd and 3rd level spell effects, that's all well and good, but I think that there's a lot of consequences for doing so that you need to contemplate carefully.

[Grendus]

1. Fabricate
2. Invisibility
3. Fools gold (also the obviously fake clause)

Yea, I think you nailed it. I'd let one and three fly, but they would be recognizably fake require a serious bluff check (like, +10 to +20 bonus to Sense Motive) to convince them that it was genuine. Two is outside the power of prestidigitation anyways, you can't make things invisible with a cantrip.

[Psyren]

It doesn't work. A negative level also causes the creature to lose 5 hp, and temp hp are lost first.

I think OP is just not paying attention to the debunked ones at this point...

[dextercorvia]

I think OP is just not paying attention to the debunked ones at this point...

No Brains asked for a critique of her(gender determined based soley on avatar) idea.

[missmvicious]

If you want to play in a game where a 0th level spell can replicate 2nd and 3rd level spell effects, that's all well and good, but I think that there's a lot of consequences for doing so that you need to contemplate carefully.

There were, and there should be.

My mistake about mentioning Prestidigitation to make things invisible. I should've clarified that was done in 4e, in which yes, it can be done.

The painting was done in 3.5 as a way for a CN Bard to turn a scrap of canvas into a quick buck on an unsuspecting citizen in a shabby remote town. We needed the money for an inn and my CG character and my friend's LG character never found out how she did it until the cantrip wore off and the duped citizen called a guard.

Prestidigitation coins wouldn't work in a normal setting, but when done in a low-light setting against a fairly stupid NPC with a high Bluff check, we pulled it off. Money was tight for our characters. Our DM was stingy with the GP rewards, so we had to be resourceful. The effect never lasted long, and consequence was always taken into consideration. Never once has Prestidigitation allowed us to walk away clean from an event, but it sometimes bought us a few extra seconds to run like the wind before someone figured out what was going on.

Incidentally, our LG character was never happy about the tricks our CN character pulled off, but he had a big-brother mentality towards her and would always give her a good tongue-lashing about immoral behavior after each of these little stunts. She'd always shrug it off with some sort of, "hey it got the job done" philosophy, toss big brother a hug and a disarming smile, and then lie low for a bit until he let his guard down again, then get into some get-rich-quick money making scam again.

She also used it to soil a would-be attackers eyes. It granted concealment, and gave us a realistic fighting chance against him.

I used that later in a 4e campaign, and the DM allowed it. I used prestidigitation to put 1 pound of a "poop" like substance on a lizard mount's face, and then cast it again the next round to create a strong odor like a cheap cologne, so that it couldn't realistically see or smell us... two ways my character assumed it could track our movement and attack us. It helped... it at least distracted the lizard enough to make it take total defense while a single tear fell of agony fell from it's poop-stained face and we won the encounter. In fact, I have more luck with my cantrips in 4e than I do with my Daily Powers. But that's 4e, and I'm a terribly 4e wizard.

[No brains]

Still contemplating the virtue bomb, I remembered a feat called necrotic reserve or something to that effect that allowed an undead creature the ability to enter a dying state provided it had fed on something. With a more specific knowledge of the feat, virtue bomb might work.

[mykelyk]

Yeah, this sort of thing always bugs me. If that's the kind of game you want to play, then that's fine, more power to you. But I played in a 4e game once with a changeling player where the DM drastically broadened the changeling's disguise ability (basically, the changeling could make itself look like non-humanoid monsters, and could alter the appearance of its garb).

In 3.5 a changeling can look like a not humanoind monster (It must however maintain the same body shape, so a beholder is out, a minotaur, an elan or a warforged are ok), he can also look like a statue or a mannequin because his body is a canvas.
He cannot change his dress, but if he is naked he can make his skin look like a dress.

[Chained Birds]

Still contemplating the virtue bomb, I remembered a feat called necrotic reserve or something to that effect that allowed an undead creature the ability to enter a dying state provided it had fed on something. With a more specific knowledge of the feat, virtue bomb might work.

Downside: 1HD skeletons and zombies don't gain feats naturally.

But perhaps Awaken Undead can grant them some. Even if it does work, it would seem like a waste even if you tried it on a suicide squad of 10+HD undead.

[werewolf435]

I ask this question as much as I get asked:
"What good is Virtue as a spell?"


Sorry for thread-mancy, but I stumbled upon this and had a thought. If you were a summoner super-specialized into your Eidolon (as most min-maxers suggest you do with a summoner) then if you've blown your load of buffy goodness all over your Eidolon's eager face, you could just take the rest of your Summoner's turns for the combat giving your Eidolon fast healing 1 with life-link.

I mean, they made it a 4 point Evolution, so Either fast healing of any number is hella-good, or that particular evolution is a trap; either way, it's a thought.