Tier 3 blaster?

[No brains]

After casually skimming the tier list, I noticed there is very little in the way of ranged blasters.

Assuming I want to explode my enemies with magic, what is the best T3 class for me?

[Frosty]

Sorcerer. Just pick lotsa blasting spells and the sorcerer is effectively a tier 3.

[Urpriest]

Arguably Ardent and Wilder are Tier 3 (though I would peg them at low Tier 2). In general for a Tier 3 blaster you want someone capable of blasting but able to do lots of other useful things, and it's a little tricky to think of a class that fits those parameters without being able to in principle do everything. Beguiler with Shadowcraft Mage and Bard with Sublime Chord both make acceptable Blasters, but they're also moving the classes pretty close to Tier 1-2. Maybe a Fire Shujenja?

[Flickerdart]

Blasting isn't T3. It's either T2 (you're Mailman enough to kill everything) or T4 (you're an over-glorified archer).

[Dusk Eclipse]

Does the Dragonfire adept count as tier 3? I can't remember; but with a few metabreath feats and the correct breath essence (can't recall if they are called like that) particularly the Fivefold Breath of Tiamat (requires non-good alignment) they can be surprisingly effective blasters.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Blasting isn't T3. It's either T2 (you're Mailman enough to kill everything) or T4 (you're an over-glorified archer).That's blasting by itself. If you're an over-glorified archer who can also fly, scry, and... ply information via detect thoughts or charm person, boom, that's T3 territory. It's mostly a T2 class playing below his tier, but if you're moving from 1 or 2 to 3, I don't see the problem.

[Urpriest]

Does the Dragonfire adept count as tier 3? I can't remember; but with a few metabreath feats and the correct breath essence (can't recall if they are called like that) particularly the Fivefold Breath of Tiamat (requires non-good alignment) they can be surprisingly effective blasters.

Ah yes I'd forgotten them. Yeah, they're generally viewed as Tier 3 and love to blast.

[marcielle]

Ardent4/Wilder1 > Anarchic Initiate
Ardent > Metamind is better if you will probably reach reach 20(just remember to take Practiced Manifester).
Basically, you pick a utilty and blasty powers in turns(you get 1 every level). Freedom and Air domains are good.
At lower levels, most normal archers will out DPS Dragonfire adepts and the awesome metabreath feats normally REQUIRE you to either be Dragonborn(not that there's anything bad about... WAIT, Dragonborn are beholden to BAHAMUT so no fivefold breath) or take a Dragon Magazine feat.

Also, in a fight heavy campaign, remember it might be BETTER to be Tier 4 than 3. Tier 3 is characterized by having power AND flexibility. Whereas 4 simply means you have power. A focused Tier 4 can out DPS a spread out Tier 3. Prime example being the infamous Ubercharger. Hulking Hurler would be another good Tier 4 (despite their stratospheric DPS, they can't do anything BUT kill).

[Randomguy]

Isn't warlock a T3 blaster? Or is it only T4?

[JaronK]

T4, though if you play around with the item creation abilities well enough or creatively use a Chameleon dip, you should be able to hit T3. Warlock 11/Chameleon 2/Hellfire Warlock 3 with a Major Bloodline should be able to get there...

JaronK

[DeAnno]

With good spell selection using that ACF you can make a Mailman-lite with a Warmage that comes out to about Tier 3, but it doesn't really get there until level 16 (Arcane Spellsurge).

[Incanur]

Ah yes I'd forgotten them. Yeah, they're generally viewed as Tier 3 and love to blast.

Do dragonfire adepts deal enough damage to warrant the title of blaster? Before level 15, I don't think so.

[Psyren]

"Tier 3 blaster" is a bit of a misnomer. To even reach Tier 3, you need to be able to do more than one thing well. So while you can make a T3 who happens to blast, making one that can only blast is paradoxical.

The exception of course is when the one thing you can do can itself be used to do multiple things - e.g. "T3 Summoner", "T3 Shapeshifter" or "T3 Illusionist."

[kulosle]

i find that an eldritch theurge from the complete mage fits the tier 3 blaster category. the warlock requirement and the lose in caster level definitely lowers a sorcerer to T3 and arguably an evocer because of the MAD that you would now have.

[DeAnno]

Honestly Warlocks get a little bit of a bum rap at tier 4. If you can get a high enough Cha somehow they can make pretty decent debuffers, to go along with decent blasting out of a HFW and various decent battlefield control, mobility, and defensive abilities. It's a bit difficult to find the space for it all, but liberal use of the Extra Invocation feat might help.

If someone is looking for a "Tier 3" blaster that can play well at a variety of levels, that's probably the closest you're going to get.

[Urpriest]

Do dragonfire adepts deal enough damage to warrant the title of blaster? Before level 15, I don't think so.

With metabreath access I'd say they have a fighting chance at least. They're not one-shotting stuff like a Fighter might, but AOE does have its limited charms.

[DeAnno]

With metabreath access I'd say they have a fighting chance at least. They're not one-shotting stuff like a Fighter might, but AOE does have its limited charms.

The issue is that they have the same low base damage issue the Warlock has, and wedded to that they have to deal with everything being Save Half at normalish DCs instead of the Warlock's Ranged Touch goodness. When you kill your breath weapon for three rounds to Maximize it and then most of the things you hit save... it's ugh.

[Lateral]

The issue is that they have the same low base damage issue the Warlock has, and wedded to that they have to deal with everything being Save Half at normalish DCs instead of the Warlock's Ranged Touch goodness. When you kill your breath weapon for three rounds to Maximize it and then most of the things you hit save... it's ugh.

Honestly, they're only sort of blasters. They're really more battlefield control specialists with some mediocre damage output thrown in. Entangling Exhalation is to DFAs what Natural Spell is to Druids; virtually a given. That's pretty much why they're tier 3; they're like warlocks in that they get useful invocations and a combat trick with mediocre damage output, only their combat trick is more versatile since it's also a great AoE debuff/battlefield control effect that can be used every turn.

[hex0]

Duskblade! :smallwink:

[Lateral]

Duskblade! :smallwink:

Just barely.

[Draz74]

Honestly, they're only sort of blasters. They're really more battlefield control specialists with some mediocre damage output thrown in. Entangling Exhalation is to DFAs what Natural Spell is to Druids; virtually a given. That's pretty much why they're tier 3; they're like warlocks in that they get useful invocations and a combat trick with mediocre damage output, only their combat trick is more versatile since it's also a great AoE debuff/battlefield control effect that can be used every turn.

This. Basically it depends what you mean by "blaster."

Do you mean somebody who kills things with lots of damage?

Or do you mean somebody who spends her turns hurling around fire, lightning, frost, and thunder?

If you're wanting the first definition, DFA isn't really a great option; it will take a lot of shenanigans like Metabreath Feats to make you useful in a DPR role.

But if you want the second definition, DFA is ideal. Well-designed, well-balanced out of the box (assuming you at least take Entangling Exhalation), and an easy and fun class to play. You'll be "blasting" almost every turn -- but your overall effect is more battlefield control than damage.

[hex0]

I thought metabreath was sketchy on DFA and was only for the Dragon Shaman?

[tyckspoon]

Metabreaths are great for DFAs; the only problem is you don't normally qualify for it, as your breath is not on a recharge timer. There are a couple of ways to fix that, so it's doable if you really want to improve your blasting, but you need to consider if the additional feat tax/locked race choice is worth it.

[Chess435]

I'm thinking Warmage/Rainbow Servant. For most of the progression, you're fairly solidly Tier 3, being able to blast well, as well as having a couple other handy tricks. But when you reach the capstone, you suddenly become Tier .5 :smalltongue:

[Zaq]

Does the Dragonfire adept count as tier 3? I can't remember; but with a few metabreath feats and the correct breath essence (can't recall if they are called like that) particularly the Fivefold Breath of Tiamat (requires non-good alignment) they can be surprisingly effective blasters.


Honestly, they're only sort of blasters. They're really more battlefield control specialists with some mediocre damage output thrown in. Entangling Exhalation is to DFAs what Natural Spell is to Druids; virtually a given. That's pretty much why they're tier 3; they're like warlocks in that they get useful invocations and a combat trick with mediocre damage output, only their combat trick is more versatile since it's also a great AoE debuff/battlefield control effect that can be used every turn.

Yeah, what Lateral said. They're a really fun class to play, they can gum up the battlefield like nobody's business (my GM still grumbles about the time we were fighting a Tempest, and I managed to reduce his DEX to the point that he no longer qualified for TWF, so he no longer qualified for Tempest . . . fun times), and they can sling around a few different flavors of elements, but they're never going to be damage kings even with Fivefold Breath.

[Elric VIII]

A Sorcerer/Rogue/Unseen Seer/Spellwarp Sniper would be a cool blaster. You would be able to snipe targets with SA (plus Hunter's Eye) and you can debuff with rays, orbs, and/or ambush feats.

For an area-style blaster, maybe the various cloud spells with Sculpt Spell, coupled with a DOT of your choice?

[Lateral]

(my GM still grumbles about the time we were fighting a Tempest, and I managed to reduce his DEX to the point that he no longer qualified for TWF, so he no longer qualified for Tempest . . . fun times)

I don't think ability penalties work that way.

[Incanur]

A Sorcerer/Rogue/Unseen Seer/Spellwarp Sniper would be a cool blaster. You would be able to snipe targets with SA (plus Hunter's Eye) and you can debuff with rays, orbs, and/or ambush feats.

For an area-style blaster, maybe the various cloud spells with Sculpt Spell, coupled with a DOT of your choice?

That's more tier-2 blasting, though, unless you intentionally limit yourself. I've seen (ha!) wizard-based unseen seers in action and they hit for impressive damage while still being able to do whatever the situation demands like your stereotypical tier 1.

[Elric VIII]

That's more tier-2 blasting, though, unless you intentionally limit yourself. I've seen (ha!) wizard-based unseen seers in action and they hit for impressive damage while still being able to do whatever the situation demands like your stereotypical tier 1.

That was sort of the idea. For example, a Sorcerer that only takes spells from the Beguiler spell list is actually worse than a Beguiler, lacking other features and skills.

I assume that since the OP seems to be limiting himself to T3, he won't overdo his spell selection.

It is not quite as powerful as you would think (i.e. - you're no where close to the Mailman). Plus, you only get 1 attack/round, 2 once you get quicken/twin, but you're not using MM shenanagans.

I only suggest 1-2 levels of US, just to grab Hunter's Eye. The rest should be Arcane Trickster/Spellwarp Sniper to maximize blasting ability.

Here's a sample build: Spellthief 1/Sorcerer 4/Unseen Seer 2/Spellwarp Sniper 5/Uncanny Trickster 3/Arcane Trickster 5.


Spellthief gets you Concentration as a class skill at level 1.

Unseen Seer 2 gets you +1d6 SA and Hunter's Eye, and you now exactly qualify for Spellwarp Sniper.

Uncanny Trickster increases your Spellwarp Sniper level by 2, so you can Spellwarp up to 7th level spells.

Arcane Trickster adds 3d6 SA.

[Lord.Sorasen]

I thought metabreath was sketchy on DFA and was only for the Dragon Shaman?

It's a huge debate, like many things. Though to be fair, it doesn't seem to be for dragon shaman. It seems to be for dragons.

The requirements are that you have a breath weapon that recharges in terms of rounds rather than minutes. It does in fact specify "not in minutes" as well as in rounds. RAW, this means that the DFA can't take these feats unless they find a way to make their breath weapon recharge in terms of rounds (there are ways). However, RAI there are two interpretations, one being that it needs to have a reload time, and others that figure that since really the dragonfire adept is the only thing I can think of with an infinite breath weapon, they specified "not in minutes" to mean that it needs to reload quickly... In which case the original author would have included the dragonfire adept. It's one of those things...

Either way, entangling exhalation, which is the breath power most referenced, isn't even metabreath. It doesn't include anything about reload time, so dragonfire adepts can take it no issue.

Which is nice because you're charizard and that's always cool.

[Coidzor]

I don't think ability penalties work that way.

Really, pre-reqs and classes shouldn't work that way that ability damage would do it either.

[faceroll]

Wilders make pretty solid blasters. The nice thing about them is you only need one or two blasting powers and they scale with level, leaving you free to pick up stuff like dispel psionics or whatever.


Blasting isn't T3. It's either T2 (you're Mailman enough to kill everything) or T4 (you're an over-glorified archer).

ToB is almost entirely blasting. Damage is fine. It's just that if that's all you do, you don't get to hang out with the cool kids.

[Incanur]

Plus, you only get 1 attack/round, 2 once you get quicken/twin, but you're not using MM shenanagans.

Eye beams (Ocular Spell), arcane fusion, and various other tricks can increase the number of attacks. And spellwarping wings of flurry is a super potent attack.

[Flickerdart]

ToB is almost entirely blasting. Damage is fine. It's just that if that's all you do, you don't get to hang out with the cool kids.
ToB isn't T3 because of the damage it does, though. It's T3 because it also teleports and heals and gives people extra turns and ignores DR and shrugs off the sun.

[faceroll]

ToB isn't T3 because of the damage it does, though. It's T3 because it also teleports and heals and gives people extra turns and ignores DR and shrugs off the sun.

Hey cool, that's exactly what I said.

[Flickerdart]

It seemed like you were disagreeing with me though, by saying that ToB = damage, while they are not T4 or 2.

[Elric VIII]

Eye beams (Ocular Spell), arcane fusion, and various other tricks can increase the number of attacks. And spellwarping wings of flurry is a super potent attack.

If the op is going to use those tricks, why not just play an Incatatrix and be done with it?

Ocular spell is one of the most powerful metamagics you can get, Arcane Fusion is either a 1st and 4th or 4th and 7th level spell.

Let's assume that my proposed build does do this:
He can cast Arcane Fusion and have Rapid Metamagic at level 12 (Spellthief 1/Sor 4/US 2/ SwS 5). Let us assume that he has the following (just to eke out every bit of damage we can).

Sorcerer Character:

Race:

Silverbrow Human (Dragonblood subtype, +1 CL on WoF)

Feats:

Practiced Spellcaster
Point Blank Shot
Occular Spell
Quicken Spell
Arcane Thesis: WoF
Rapid Metamagic

Assumptions:

Starting 18 Cha, +1 age, +3 from levels, +6 from item (almost 1/2 WBL, but w/e) = 28 Cha. This is just high enough to get 2 extra slots of his highest level (5th) spells.
He gets to apply SA to each spell.
Enemies are not immune to his damage types.
He doesn't need to worry about SR.

The spells he will be using are:

Arcane Fusion, 5th, CM - Cast a 1st and 4th level spell as one standard action.
Hunter's Eye, 2nd, PHBII - +1d6 SA/3 CL.
Ray of Flame, 1st, SpC - 1d6/2levels, max 5d6, fire.
Wings of Flurry, 4th, RotD - 1d6/level, no max, force.


His spell slots are: 6/9/8/8/8/6.

Scenario 1:

Use 2 5th level slots for 2 Occular Wings of Flurry, full-round action to discharge.
Use a 3rd 5th level slot to cast Quickened Ray of Flame, swift action.

Damage:

WoF - 2*(15d6 + 4d6SA) = 133 damage.
RoF - 5d6 + 4d6SA = 31 damage.

That's 164 damage that he can deal 3/day before he runs out of his highest level spell slots. He also dazes the enemy.
Scenario 2:
Arcane Fusion for WoF and RoF + Quickened RoF.

Damage:

WoF - 15d6 + 4d6SA = 62 damage.
RoF - 2* (5d6 + 4d6SA) = 62 damage.

That is 124 damage 3/day.
Scenario 3:

Cast Hunter's Eye.
Use 2 5th level slots for 2 Occular Wings of Flurry, full-round action to discharge.


Damage:

WoF - 2*(15d6 + 8d6SA) = 161 damage.

He can do this 3/day, but it will cost him all of his highest level slots, plus 3 2nd level slots.
Scenario 4
Cast Hunter's Eye.
Arcane Fusion for WoF and RoF.

WoF - 15d6 + 8d6 SA = 80 damage.
RoF - 5d6 + 8d6 SA = 45 damage.

This one deals 125 damage, 3/day.


Let's compare this to a Human TWF Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 7/SA Fighter 1:
Feats:

TWF
Daring Outlaw.
Martial Study
Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance.
Shadow Blade
Staggering Strike

Assumptions:

SA will apply.
2 +1 Shortswords of Deadly Precision, +4 Dex item, Gloves of the Balanced Hand. (~ same total cost as a +6 Cha item).
18 Starting Dex, +3 levels, +4 item = 25 (+7).
12 Str, 16 Int.



A full attack for this Rogue looks like this: +17/+17/+12/+12/+7.

Damage:
5*(1d6 weapon +1 enhancement +7 Dex +1 Str + 3 Int + 7d6 SA + 2d6 Assassin's Stance) = 235 damage.

And each attack, the enemy must make a ~ DC 47 Fort save or be staggered (only 1 move or attack on his next turn).

Let's assume that only 60% of the attacks hit, and ignore critical hits. This results in a net damage of 141, a little less than the optimal Sorcerer scenarios, above.

Basically, the build I proposed, using the exploits you outlined (Plus things like Arcane Thesis) can dish out a bit more damage than a Rogue (on a per-round basis), but uses most of his finite resources to do so.

[Grendus]

Building the sneak attack caster with Warmage is probably low to mid T3. It has the rogue skillmonkey aspect, but it's spells obviate the rogue's biggest weakness (complete dependency on flanking or sniping and immunity to sneak attack). It takes some optimization - you need to pick the right divination bonus spells, and grabbing Arcane Disciple (Trickery) wouldn't be remiss if you can spare a positive wis modifier - but overall it would be a very playable.

[Person_Man]

If you choose the Fire element, a Wu Jen is arguably a Tier 3 blaster. You get up to 9th level spells, most (but not all) of your spells are blasty, and you get an easy +4 to your caster level for your element spells (+2 from your 6th level ability, and +2 from the cheap Wu Jen only Rod of Elemental Might in Comp Mage), and you can pull off various metamagic tricks, but you lack the world destroying power of a Tier 1 or 2 caster.

[ThiefInTheNight]

It seems like any T2 caster that doesn't pick any game-breakers as his spells known would fall neatly into T3 (or lower if his choices were really bad)...

Also, in my sig is a link to a variant Dread Necromancer that is blasty. I hope it's still T3...

[Hiro Protagonest]

It depends on your definition of blaster.

If you want the more common definition, a sorcerer with, for example, Fly, Teleport, and Displacement along with Fireball, Lightning Bolt, and Orb of Fire as well as Grease, Blur, Magic Missile, and Scorching Ray can spam damage spells while having some useful defense and utility.

If you simply want as much DPR as possible, then you basically want to be a 4e striker. Warblade and swordsage handle this well, while still giving defensive options, mobility, and good use of action economy.