Help with Crusader alignment ruling??!

[RaviStrife]

As DM, I ruled against a chaotic/neutral crusader. The player who I ruled against keeps throwing a fit, claiming that I'm wrong. The text on the alignment is "a crusader can choose any alignment except neutral-- she must stand for some ideal, whether chaos, good, evil, law, or a combination of principles." He claims that the part "or a combination of principles" means that he can be chaotic neutral. Help, he's driving me nuts. Am I wrong in saying that he cannot be chaotic/neutral?

[Hiro Protagonest]

As DM, I ruled against a chaotic/neutral crusader. The player who I ruled against keeps throwing a fit, claiming that I'm wrong. The text on the alignment is "a crusader can choose any alignment except neutral-- she must stand for some ideal, whether chaos, good, evil, law, or a combination of principles." He claims that the part "or a combination of principles" means that he can be chaotic neutral. Help, he's driving me nuts.

Yes, he can be chaotic neutral. Why did you think differently?

[Dr.Epic]

I'd imagine a Crusader would be lawful. They pick a goal or principle and devout their life to fulfilling it. I can't really picture an apathetic Crusader.

[RaviStrife]

Because in the book it says he can't be neutral. In the quote that is in my post.

[erikun]

I read that as "Any alignment except True Neutral". Heck, the Ruby Knight Vindicator heavily implies a Crusader/Cleric entry, and it is for a Lawful Neutral deity!

For that matter, it says "whether chaos, good, evil, law, or a combination of principles." The 'or' means that it something which is not a combination is possible - meaning LN, NG, CN, and NE.

[KillianHawkeye]

As DM, I ruled against a chaotic/neutral crusader. The player who I ruled against keeps throwing a fit, claiming that I'm wrong. The text on the alignment is "a crusader can choose any alignment except neutral-- she must stand for some ideal, whether chaos, good, evil, law, or a combination of principles." He claims that the part "or a combination of principles" means that he can be chaotic neutral. Help, he's driving me nuts. Am I wrong in saying that he cannot be chaotic/neutral?

Yes, you are wrong. It says right there that they can stand for Chaos. A combination of principles has nothing to do with it. Chaotic Neutral != neutral.

EDIT:

I'd imagine a Crusader would be lawful. They pick a goal or principle and devout their life to fulfilling it. I can't really picture an apathetic Crusader.

You are facing a false dilemma. Chaos does not imply apathy.

[Savannah]

Based on that text, a crusader can be anything except true neutral. "She must stand for some ideal, whether chaos, [...]" means that CN is fair game (that would be standing for the ideal of Chaos). "A combination of principles" means that a crusader could be, for example, CE (standing for the combination of Chaos and Evil).

[Frosty]

As DM, I ruled against a chaotic/neutral crusader. The player who I ruled against keeps throwing a fit, claiming that I'm wrong. The text on the alignment is "a crusader can choose any alignment except neutral-- she must stand for some ideal, whether chaos, good, evil, law, or a combination of principles." He claims that the part "or a combination of principles" means that he can be chaotic neutral. Help, he's driving me nuts. Am I wrong in saying that he cannot be chaotic/neutral?
You are plain wrong. CN believe in something...and that something is personal freedom.

[Coidzor]

As DM, I ruled against a chaotic/neutral crusader. The player who I ruled against keeps throwing a fit, claiming that I'm wrong. The text on the alignment is "a crusader can choose any alignment except neutral-- she must stand for some ideal, whether chaos, good, evil, law, or a combination of principles." He claims that the part "or a combination of principles" means that he can be chaotic neutral. Help, he's driving me nuts. Am I wrong in saying that he cannot be chaotic/neutral?

Yes. How can he stand for chaos alone if you require him to be either CG or CE? :smallwink:

[Psyren]

The class that can't be "X Neutral" is Soulborn, not Crusader.

[agentnone]

I would imagine that if it said he can't be true neutral, then it would say it as such. I look as Crusaders as sort of like Paladins without as stringent alignment restrictions. But, if you're the DM you can always "house rule it" but it's not the right way to go. I would say go ahead and let him play what alignment he wants. But if he acts completely outside of it, make sure he faces any penalties that would result as such. This might be a little late for your campaign, but I always tell my players that if they want to play anything, I must approve of it first, including, but not limited to, making minor changes, like in this case, a set alignment standard. Just my 2 cp.

[deuxhero]

I would imagine that if it said he can't be true neutral, then it would say it as such.

And it does!



Neutral, "Undecided"

A neutral character does what seems to be a good idea. She doesn’t feel strongly one way or the other when it comes to good vs. evil or law vs. chaos. Most neutral characters exhibit a lack of conviction or bias rather than a commitment to neutrality. Such a character thinks of good as better than evil—after all, she would rather have good neighbors and rulers than evil ones. Still, she’s not personally committed to upholding good in any abstract or universal way.

Some neutral characters, on the other hand, commit themselves philosophically to neutrality. They see good, evil, law, and chaos as prejudices and dangerous extremes. They advocate the middle way of neutrality as the best, most balanced road in the long run.


"True neutral" is a fan term used for clarity mostly, "neutral" is the official name of the alignment.

[Hecuba]

"True neutral" is a fan term used for clarity mostly

Actually, it's a legacy term: AD&D used it explicitly (though they also used several other terms for the same thing).

[Stormageddon]

Yup the player is right. By your logic you also could not have a crusader who stands just for good: NG or a crusader who is all about the evil: NE.

[Lapak]

Your player (and the other posters here) are right: a Chaotic Neutral character is one who stands for Chaos. That's what that alignment is, and it's explicitly listed as one of the things a Crusader can stand for.

They can be anything but plain Neutral.