Turning Undead Woes

[Trekkin]

In brief, I'm currently playing a second-level cleric, and I've never successfully turned anything; apparently I've failed over a dozen turning checks. It's gotten to the point where I just write off the first round of any combat against undead as "blow a turn attempt at the party's request and then move". Naturally, I have questions.

1. Am i just expecting too much of turn undead? What is it usually used for, anyway?
2. How much of an investment am I looking at to be able to turn the kind of undead of which 2-4 comprise a CR-appropriate encounter? (that's usually what we fight, apparently) Are the feats like Heighten and Improved Turning worth the feat cost?

I suppose the meta-question at the core of all of this is whether or not it's a better use of my character improvement resources to just use my turn attempts to fuel non-DMM (DMM is banned) divine abilities.

[MesiDoomstalker]

In brief, I'm currently playing a second-level cleric, and I've never successfully turned anything; apparently I've failed over a dozen turning checks. It's gotten to the point where I just write off the first round of any combat against undead as "blow a turn attempt at the party's request and then move". Naturally, I have questions.

1. Am i just expecting too much of turn undead? What is it usually used for, anyway?
2. How much of an investment am I looking at to be able to turn the kind of undead of which 2-4 comprise a CR-appropriate encounter? (that's usually what we fight, apparently) Are the feats like Heighten and Improved Turning worth the feat cost?

I suppose the meta-question at the core of all of this is whether or not it's a better use of my character improvement resources to just use my turn attempts to fuel non-DMM (DMM is banned) divine abilities.

Other Divine feats. Really, honestly, thats all your going to get out of TU without fighting mass amounts of low-CR skeletions/zombies/etc/

[Treblain]

Turning isn't very good, though I'm sure someone can present me with a build disproving that statement (Radiant Servant, probably). Look for divine feats, and don't forget that Devotion feats from Complete Champion can also use turn attempts.

[JaronK]

Generally speaking to make Turn Undead itself good you need Turn Resistance reducers... the Lyre of the Restful Soul (Libris Mortis) and the Rod of Defiance (MiC) are obvious choices. Remember, they explode if they have less than half your HD, and with those items there's a slight chance that might happen.

But really, most people just power Divine feats with the attempts.

JaronK

[Keld Denar]

Turning can be very good. Unfortunately, its pretty bianary. You either succeed or you don't. If you don't like that, look into the "damage undead" variant in the Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. This turns your TU into a blast of sorts, and at least damage stacks with the damage your team mates deal.

Otherwise, grab a pen and write down some items for your shopping list. First off is an Ephod of Authority from the MIC. +1 effective TU level for like, 800g. That'll get you started as soon as like, 3rd level. As you aquire wealth, see if you can get +1 Sacred armor and shields. Its in the Arms and Equipment Guide. They give a +2 untyped bonus to your effective TU level, and clock in at just over 9000g each. Next is a Phylactery of Undead Turning, which IIRC, is a cool 12,000g. Those 4 items combined give you a +9 effective TU level. If you can afford all of that by level 9, you are turning as a cleric TWICE your level, and you can easily hit 20 HD undead with a decent roll. There are a few other items, like the Lyre of Restful Souls and the Rod of Defiance from Libris Mortis which reduces your foes Turning Resistance (TR counts as "virtual" HD to make them harder to turn). You CAN have a negative TR, so stacking both of those together gives you +8 more effective levels, essentially. Thats generally overkill, especially since you need someone to play the Lyre while you whip out the holy mojo.

But Keld, thats a lot of resources to put into just one ability that only affects one creature type. What if there are other foes than undead?

Well, thats why you open Complete Champion. There is a 2nd level spell there called "Turn Anathema". You can use it to turn outsiders with at least one alignment component opposite yours. Any good alignment means you can now turn [Evil] outsiders the same as undead. Granted, you can't dust them with a Greater Turning (boo!), but its a VERY powerful debuff with no save. You know that 9th level cleric with the swanky gear I mentioned above? If he rolls +2 levels on his turning check, he can turn a BALOR (or a Pit Fiend, both are [Evil]). Thats right, a 9th level cleric can give your party a REALLY good shot at escaping from a rampant Balor rampage (assuming you don't get Imploded messily first). Against lesser fiends like Vrocks, Hezeru, Nalfeshni, and their kin, the ones you'll most likely be fighting? You got that in the bag...you probably don't even have to roll. Outsiders typically scale 1:1 with HD vs CR, so anything remotely level appropriate is food for you.

Just some thoughts.

[navar100]

The problem with Turn Undead is that it's based on HD while undead HD increases at a faster rate than CR, so it falters mechanically. It also falters in the metagame. Undead you turn easily you were meant to when the DM designed the encounter. Undead intended to be major foes just like any other monster would be but they just happened to be undead won't be turned due to DM fiat of encounter design because the combat would be "too easy" otherwise. There's no sinister intent on the DM's part, but if the major undead was not a threat there's practically no point in having the monster be undead.

[Deimess]

If you are dedicated to TU, you can also grab the Sun Domain, which gives you the greater turning power. It's only once per day, but with turning resistance reducers and what not you at least have a shot at vaporizing a lich or vampire.

[Medic!]

Complete Divine has a great turning variant that I've pushed for as a permanent rule at our tables on pg 87. It's essentially 1d6 dmg per turning lvl in a 30ft radius burst centered on the turner with a will save (10+turning lvl+cha mod) for 1/2 dmg, turn resistance as DR vs the turn; negative energy heals instead of damaging. It's worked out wonderfully in our games, love it to death over standard turn undead. We also house-rule that greater turning (like the sun domain) increases the damage die by a catagory (to a d8).

[Keld Denar]

The problem with Turn Undead is that it's based on HD while undead HD increases at a faster rate than CR, so it falters mechanically. It also falters in the metagame. Undead you turn easily you were meant to when the DM designed the encounter. Undead intended to be major foes just like any other monster would be but they just happened to be undead won't be turned due to DM fiat of encounter design because the combat would be "too easy" otherwise. There's no sinister intent on the DM's part, but if the major undead was not a threat there's practically no point in having the monster be undead.

This is mostly only true for unintelligent undead. Zombies are defined by their metric frank-ton of HD, because that's all they have. Things, especially caster type undead, and uberespecially those undead with a ton of SLAs or other fancy abilities, tend to lag a bit behind on HD, especially if they are stock MM monsters aren't customly advanced. Also, most Incorp undead tend to have CRs in the range of their CR (Dread Wraiths are the exception).

Shadow CR3 with 3 HD (with +2 TR) for a net of +2
Wight CR4 with 5 HD for a net of +1
Vampire Spaun CR4 with 4 HD (with +2 TR) for a net of +2
Wraith CR 5 with 5 HD for a net of +2
Spectre CR 7 with 7 HD (with +2 TR) for a net of +2

Heck, even a Lich. Take a 13th level wizard lich, who is CR15, and only requires an effective Turn Undead level of +17. That 9th level cleric I suggested above with that gear? He can dust that Lich by about 8 or 9 without rolling.

If you have a decent Cha bonus and an Ephod of Authority, any CR appropriate character has a decent chance of turning any of these encounters, or dusting them with the Sun domain.

[Quirp]

Don´t forget to add the glory domain for +2 on your turning check and +1d6 turning damage.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Complete Divine has a great turning variant that I've pushed for as a permanent rule at our tables on pg 87. It's essentially 1d6 dmg per turning lvl in a 30ft radius burst centered on the turner with a will save (10+turning lvl+cha mod) for 1/2 dmg, turn resistance as DR vs the turn; negative energy heals instead of damaging. It's worked out wonderfully in our games, love it to death over standard turn undead. We also house-rule that greater turning (like the sun domain) increases the damage die by a catagory (to a d8).

This. Really your best bet, all things considered. It's a heck of a lot simpler, and is pretty much guaranteed to have at least SOME effect, even on big bads.

[Trekkin]

I wish I could use that turning variant, but the DM prefers the default turning system. I will definitely look into those items, though...if ever we find any significant loot.

[Quirp]

There are also the Light of X spells in Complete Champion. All of them boost your turning in some way.

[Deimess]

I guess if turning by default was already really good, there would be no need to get any of this stuff