Do bards work by themselves?

[Gandariel]

I've heard a lot on bards being very generally good and useful.
Every bard build i see, though, is full of PrCs: Sublime chord, virtuoso, etc.

i agree they're strong PrCs (Sublime Chort for 9th level casting? yes!) but i have one question:
how good is a bard 20? how good is it during the whole 20 levels?
can many of the optimisation stuff (inspire greatness, or example) be done well without multiclassing?

[candycorn]

It's solid in a no PrC game, though I'd do Bard 18 / Paladin 2, with Devoted Performer and Snowflake Wardance. Gives you more good things for your charisma.

[Mystral]

The Problem with bard 20 is that it lacks a great capstone. Mass Suggestion is all fine and that, but you have to fascinate them first and the will save is not that great for level 18. Also, many things are immune to mind effecting stuff. And if you really want that ability, you can take it as a spell at level 13, anyway. Inspire Heroics isn't good, too. A bonus on armor class isn't that usefull, and even less so for only 1-2 creatures. The saving throw bonus is better, but not by much. Then there's break enchantment, which looks nice, but requiers 1 minute of singing, so it's useless in combat, when it counts, and not usefull out of combat, if the effect your friend is under isn't very specific. (Petrification? Not so hard, but what do you do if your buddy is berserking?) It's far from useless, but even so, you can get THAT as a spell, too, 2 levels earlier.

So, all you get after level 9 is a +2 increment on your inspire courage, a bunch of abilities you can get by picking spells a few levels earlier and inspire greatness.

So of course, taking a bard prestige class with full casting progression is superior. That said, a bard 20 can still work. Most of the abilities of a bard come from his spells and feats, and if he can still pick them from splatbooks, he should work, fine. It's important that he focuses on one kind of role he wants to play, though, and picks feats and spells accordingly.

Caveat: I haven't checked alternate class features, these might be usefull, after level 9, too. I doubt it, though.

[Golden Ladybug]

Bards are brilliant, even without PrCing out of them. They aren't going to keep up with, say, a Sorcerer, but the tools they are given let them do a lot, and do it well.

But to get the most out of them, you need to specialise. With the TWF tree, dualwielding Harmonising Crystal Echoblades, Dragonfire Inspiration, Slippers of Battledancing and Snowflake Wardance turns you into a very respectable damage dealer, for instance. Or you could use Words of Creation and the like to optimise the crap out of Inspire Courage. You can break Diplomacy and Bluff.

Just because PrCing can make any of those tactics slightly better doesn't mean they aren't viable as Bard 20.

I'm not allowed to play Bards anymore; my DM banned me from ever using them again :smalltongue:

[missmvicious]

In all my experiences, the Bard has always been an under-appreciated, yet highly valuable member of the team, but they are definitely a team player, unless you're doing strictly a skill challenge campaign in a city dwelling, where they can be at least as useful as a Rogue.

Out in the wilds, or in a dungeon, a Bard by himself is like a guitarist without a band... you can appreciate their talent, but after a few minutes, your going to wonder where the front man is. Bards, even early on, have excellent support abilities, and if you put enough ranks in Bluff and Diplomacy, you could head off a fight before it even begins and turn a reasonably intelligent enemy into an ally. And Inspire Courage, an ability you get right off the bat, turns a team of clunky meat tanks who foolishly made DEX one of their dump stats into a team of snipers who quickly turn enemies into blood fountains (especially useful in a campaign with a lot of PCs).

But if you want to use a Bard by herself, stick to the city as much as possible. A Bard can Perform without putting ranks into the skill (I don't know why a Bard wouldn't put ranks in Perform, but there you go) and therefore can raise their own funds as a street performer. All that extra money can be used for everything as mundane as food and lodging, to the purchasing of magical items (a wand or ring wouldn't be a bad idea for a Bard), enchanted weapons, and magic armor that can really give you the edge in any fight later on. Plus, by bringing attention to yourself, you could get the opportunity to meet some helpful NPCs. Your high Diplomacy roles should make them Helpful in no time, and you can then get from them almost anything you want. If you really work the angles, you might even get an Aristocrat to become an investor (and perhaps a short term adventurer) on your next quest. Killing a monster to receive it's cache of trinkets, gems, and the occasional magic item is nice, but doing it for the treasure AND a reward from a wealthy nobleman is much, much nicer.

It's a more tedious route then just busting down the door and slaying everything that fits within your Spot check... but you didn't pick a Barbarian, who is meant for that task. And with patience and proper equipping, you won't regret it. Think video game RPG... the player who spends all those hours early on stat crunching, and tedious side quests, can breeze through the bosses later on. Same concept... a Bard is the best equipped to actually become stronger in a non-combat situation. Use that unique ability to become a Bardic god and see your enemies tremble before you.

[missmvicious]

Incidentally, one of my friends used his Bard to charm animals into becoming his traveling companions (odd use for a Bard... seems more like a Druid tactic), ant he only selected Dire animals for this purpose. He would take them into towns (that would allow a tame dire animal in) and have an Expert train them to for combat or mounted combat. As his menagerie grew, he decided to raise enough money to purchase a wondrous item similar to an Iron Flask (DMG pg 261), except it would work on Material Plane animals instead of extra-planar monsters, and would slow the aging process of anything trapped inside it. He would then put each of his combat animals into its designated Iron Flask, and then in battle, choose an animal, speak it's command word and send it out to do his bidding, while he stood in the back and worked mainly on keeping the animal friendly and throwing Handle Animal rolls.

Yes... my friend wanted to be a Bardic Pokemon trainer. That Bard of his was the very best--like no one ever was...

[Thrice Dead Cat]

My favorite approach to being a bard is going something like Bard 4-6/Crusader (or Warblade) X.

Use Song of the Heart, other inspiration boosting goodies, and Song of the White Raven and just rock out so hard your fists explode into fiery goodness across the faces of your enemies.

[Piggy Knowles]

Bard 20 is fine. It's just that there are PrCs that give you more (in some cases, such as Sublime Chord, significantly more) useful abilities than anything actual bard levels would get you.

But honestly, the same is true for, say, a wizard or cleric. The fact that a Wizard/Master Specialist/Incantatrix/Archmage is better than Wizard 20 doesn't mean that mean that the wizard needs all of those prestige classes to be good.

[Zaq]

The Problem with bard 20 is that it lacks a great capstone. Mass Suggestion is all fine and that, but you have to fascinate them first and the will save is not that great for level 18. Also, many things are immune to mind effecting stuff. And if you really want that ability, you can take it as a spell at level 13, anyway. Inspire Heroics isn't good, too. A bonus on armor class isn't that usefull, and even less so for only 1-2 creatures. The saving throw bonus is better, but not by much. Then there's break enchantment, which looks nice, but requiers 1 minute of singing, so it's useless in combat, when it counts, and not usefull out of combat, if the effect your friend is under isn't very specific. (Petrification? Not so hard, but what do you do if your buddy is berserking?) It's far from useless, but even so, you can get THAT as a spell, too, 2 levels earlier..

While there are many complaints you can make about Fascinate, the bolded part isn't one of them. The DC is your Perform check. That's pretty much a "pray for 20" scenario if someone targets you with it.

Anyway, back to the OP, Bard 20 is a fine build. There's no equivalent of Planar Shepherd for Bards . . . there's no PrC that advances ALL of their main features (music, skills, and spells). Something always gets sacrificed or changed. The old Sublime Chord/Virtuoso combination comes close, to be fair, but it's not quite the same. And honestly, the combination of music, skills, and spells will get you pretty damn far. Bard spells might not be Sorcerer spells, but they're certainly nothing to be ashamed of.

[Daftendirekt]

Yes... my friend wanted to be a Bardic Pokemon trainer. That Bard of his was the very best--like no one ever was...

Your friend wins an internet, and I have to try this myself some time. :smallbiggrin:

[Dr.Epic]

I'd say it's good to level 20, and don't see any problem without multiclassing or joining a PrC.

[Coidzor]

The class abilities that scale (ok, so really it's mostly just Inspire Courage) and spellcasting aren't bad and can be quite nice, but, well, the class is kinda barren. Inspire Greatness is kinda iffy and it's the last real decent ability that Bards get, and the Bard Chassis is generally replicated or bettered by Bard PrCs.

Especially if the PrC progresses bardic music known, then there's really no reason to stay in Bard.... Well, maybe if one were really in love with crystal echoblades and wasn't playing with fractional BAB.

Song of Freedom is a gimped version of a spell that your caster friends got 3 levels ago. And that you could've learned how to cast 2 levels ago and could just use a wand or scroll thereof.

Song of Heroics takes a full round to kick in and can only effect 2 allies pre-Epic, and gives a +4 dodge AC, which at least stacks if they have any other dodge bonuses, and a +4 morale bonus to saves. Now if it gave an effect like Heroics or effected a bit more of the party, it might not be so bad.

Mass Suggestion isn't even at their capstone and is limited by all of the drawbacks and situationality of Suggestion and Fascinate.

Inspire Courage +4 is nice, but it's not a capstone, it's just a progression of a scaling ability. That, and any bard worth its salt that's interested isn't getting it at 20th level anyway, they're nabbing it sooner and having a bonus at least 3 bigger.


Bard 20 is fine. It's just that there are PrCs that give you more (in some cases, such as Sublime Chord, significantly more) useful abilities than anything actual bard levels would get you.

But honestly, the same is true for, say, a wizard or cleric. The fact that a Wizard/Master Specialist/Incantatrix/Archmage is better than Wizard 20 doesn't mean that mean that the wizard needs all of those prestige classes to be good.

Indeed, it's the same kind of choice between no/bad class features and some/more/better class features, really.