Rogues

[Xcalber]

I'd like to make a dwarven rogue, or a rogue like character in one of my campaigns. I was wondering what kinds of feats and/or prestige classes would be best? If anyone would care to make any suggestions I'd greatly appreciate it. I can make use of any feat or prestige class in 3.0, 3.5, or d20. Thanks!

[Zaq]

OK, you answered one of the standard questions ("what sources are available?"), but we need more than that before we can really get cracking.

What's your starting level?
How far in the future do you want to plan?
How much access to magic marts do you expect?
What's the rest of the group like in terms of power?
What do you actually want to DO? SA blender? Unstoppable trapmonkey? Silver-tongued face? Something else?

We need more info before we can make a character. "Dwarven Rogue" is so amazingly broad that it barely means anything at all.

[missmvicious]

Now I'm curious. A Dwarven Rogue sounds like as good a fit as a Gnomish Barbarian.

But I bet if you make him a CN thief-type Rogue, then he could steal all the money (or raw ingredients) he needs to make his own (and the party's) MW weapons and armor without worrying about the costs so much. I'm pretty sure a Dwarf can craft weapons and armor without putting ranks into it, as long as it only involves stone or metalwork. Kind of a powder puff way to build a Dwarf, but it's a great money-saving tactic, especially since MW armor and shields, imho, are way overpriced for the teeny-tiny penalty reduction they provide.

Still, I'm intrigued to see how (s)he turns out. Either way, like Zaq says, can't offer much help without some more info.

[Xcalber]

I'm sorry, I guess I should have offered more information.

Firstly we'll be starting out at level one. The campaign should go into the epic levels. I can expect to get any magic item in any book, aside from relics and artifacts. We tend to play overpowered, and I was hoping for something a little more combat based. If there's anything else you need, please let me know and I'd be happy to provied it! Thanks!

[Hawk7915]

Obligatory link to the Rogue handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8711233).

Generally speaking the best rogues for a combat-based campaign are sneak attack death-dealers. Make sure to snag Craven (Champions of Ruin) for a big boost to SA damage. Consider a dip to Swordsage (for Assassin's Stance + various maneuvers for when you face the inevitable crit-immune critter) or Swashbuckler (for better BAB and HD, free feats, and Int to damage without losing any SA dice, thanks to Daring Outlaw). Two-weapon Fighting is feat intensive but will really help you push out the damage. Some way of full-attacking after a move/charge will help even more (Travel Devotion + Cloistered Cleric dip, Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian, etc).

For PrCs, good ol' Assassin is pretty solid. Nightsong Enforcer (C. Adventurer) and Invisible Blade (C. Warrior) can be good in specific builds. A single level of Shadowdancer snags the always amazing Hide in Plain Sight, assuming you don't want to go Assassin and can't be a Dark creature. There's also a whole legion of PrCs (Unseen Seer [C. Mage], Arcane Trickster, Spellwarp Sniper [C. Scoundrel]) that can help you build a fun arcane Wizard/Rogue hybrid.

Hope that helps!

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Dwarves arent the best fit for a combat based rogue... with their low base speed of 20, you with difficulty getting into a flanking position, which a combat rogue tends to thrive on.

however, if you are dead set on being a Dwarf Rogue...

the general consensus is that the best theoretical combat rogue build is a TWF or a STR based THF. For a dwarf I would go with a strength based two handed fighter, and use your good CON score to give you the hit points you'll need since you'll be stuck in light armor. THF (such as with a greataxe or greatsword) has a lot to offer a Rogue chassis, since you wont be wasting feats on TWF that you wont get to use since you'll be trying to flank.

grab Power Attack, Cleave, etc. The usual two handed fare. Also, Improved Initiative. CRAVEN fest from Champion of Ruin is a must. I dont like it, but most rogues do. Carry a bow, but dont waste feats on it, its just for surprise rounds. Sneak Attack at 30 ft is still fairly good.

See if you can grab the alternate class ability Penetrating Strike. you give up trapfinding, but you will still deal half your sneak attack damage to creatures that are typically immune to precision damage.

Put as many points as you can into UMD, or even take a Dip into Cloistered Cleric with the Magic Domain, so you auto success with every wand you get your hands on.

grab a wand bracer (dungeonscape) which will allow to access 5 wands with a swift action. Then, grab 5 wands that are useful. I suggest Shield, Cure Light Wounds, Swift Invisibility, Expeditious Retreat (Swift version or otherwise) and MEssage. This are cheap wands that will help you quite a bit. Message is excellent for calling for help while scouting, its a 0 level spell, and is highly recommended. With your Darkvision, you will be scouting a fair bit I imagine. Grease is still quite good too, if I remember correctly. Makes 'em flat footed. :smallwink:

Also, a bag of marbles. sounds ridiculous, but it isnt.

With this method, you will have more money to spend on your single weapon and armor, instead of paying for two magic weapons if you TWF. you should also have money left for wands and scrolls. You will also have more feats since you arent go TWF, so you can get Skill Focus: UMD, or whatever tickles your fancy. With a two handed weapon, you'll be doing respectable damage even if you cant get sneak attack damage, which will happen.

a 1 or 2 level Dip into Shadowdancer is good for Hide in Plain Sight. If you want to PrC out completely, I still think the best PrC for rogues is Assassin. Just do NOT focus on Death attacks. it fails. Focus on your spellcasting. Remember, if you have a single level in a class with a spell list, you can use wands of any spell on the list, even if you cant cast it yet.

I've been playing lots of Pathfinder, so hopefully I didnt miss anything... havent been spending much time with my 3.5 books. Oh, and see if you can use the Pathfinder Rogue. The Rogue Talents help, and the class is still tier 4, maybe low tier 3.

[Zaq]

Penetrating Strike gives up Trap Sense, not Trapfinding.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Penetrating Strike gives up Trap Sense, not Trapfinding.

eh, my bad. like I said, haven't touched 3.5 for awhile. In any case, its an even better deal, because trap sense is meh, while trapfinding is still useful.

[Safety Sword]

One of the major choices you need to make is: What combat distance are you going for?

Melee: You're looking at Two-Weapon Fighting (TWF) basically.
Ranged: Archery.

You don't have the feats for both, so it helps to know if you're going to be a tumbling flanker or a stand-off plinker. :smallbiggrin:

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

One of the major choices you need to make is: What combat distance are you going for?

Melee: You're looking at Two-Weapon Fighting (TWF) basically.
Ranged: Archery.

This is not true. TWF looks good on paper; thats about it. It promises high damage output when doing nothing but full attacking while flanking or your target is unaware of you.

How do you full attack when you you have to spend a move action to get into position to flank? How do you full attack when, during a surprise round, you have a single standard action to spend?

the only time TWF is worthwhile is when you are already flanking or when under the effects of improved invisibility.

the other bad thing about TWF is that you are a d6 HD class limited to light armor, standing right next to a huge monster that wants to crush you.

For "real" combat with a rogue, you will be MUCH better served by a two handed fighting style with a greatsword or some such, or perhaps even a single weapon and MW buckler.

As for archery rogue... I enjoy the concept, but the execution is very difficult to pull off in D&D. you can't flank, which is one of your major sources of damage. the only reliable Sneak Attack you get off is during the surprise round, and as soon as you get access to improved invisibility.

[Safety Sword]

This is not true. TWF looks good on paper; thats about it. It promises high damage output when doing nothing but full attacking while flanking or your target is unaware of you.

How do you full attack when you you have to spend a move action to get into position to flank? How do you full attack when, during a surprise round, you have a single standard action to spend?

the only time TWF is worthwhile is when you are already flanking or when under the effects of improved invisibility.

the other bad thing about TWF is that you are a d6 HD class limited to light armor, standing right next to a huge monster that wants to crush you.

For "real" combat with a rogue, you will be MUCH better served by a two handed fighting style with a greatsword or some such, or perhaps even a single weapon and MW buckler.

As for archery rogue... I enjoy the concept, but the execution is very difficult to pull off in D&D. you can't flank, which is one of your major sources of damage. the only reliable Sneak Attack you get off is during the surprise round, and as soon as you get access to improved invisibility.

Everything I said is still true. You have to decide which combat style you want to go with. I didn't actually offer any advice on which was better. Of course you can go Two Handed with a rogue. It's not very thematic.

And by better I mean "What I want to do with my character". Optimising these things is an entirely different concern. So TWF isn't the metric tonne of damage it should be, it's can still be fun. I value fun over optimisation.

Most of the fun with a rogue I find comes from using skills.

Short version: Combat optimisation with a rogue means you need to get specific because you don't have enough feats to do otherwise. Making it still feel like a rogue and not a fighter with bad BAB is another thing.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Everything I said is still true. You have to decide which combat style you want to go with. I didn't actually offer any advice on which was better. Of course you can go Two Handed with a rogue. It's not very thematic.

And by better I mean "What I want to do with my character". Optimising these things is an entirely different concern. So TWF isn't the metric tonne of damage it should be, it's can still be fun. I value fun over optimisation.

Most of the fun with a rogue I find comes from using skills.

Short version: Combat optimisation with a rogue means you need to get specific because you don't have enough feats to do otherwise. Making it still feel like a rogue and not a fighter with bad BAB is another thing.


okay... my latest rogue is wearing a buckler (reflavored as a manica) and wielding a dagger (in a spring loaded wrist sheath) and shortbow. he's considering a wizard dip to help with his duties as primary scout of the party.

As you can see, he isnt a TWF, nor is he using a two handed weapon. A wizard dip is subpar compared to other dips, but not bad. he isnt optimal, but hes my favorite rogue so far. (and I've played way too many rogues)

In essence, I dont follow my own advice. the OP asked for advice on a dwarf rogue, and I gave it. if he'd asked for advice on a human of elf rogue, it would have been different. Besides, "thematic" is a point of view.

IF the OP had asked for the most "fun" rogue build, my answer would have been different. As it is, OP asked for advice on how to build a combat based dwarf rogue, and I provided (what I believe) to be the best answer... for a rogue dwarf.

[Safety Sword]

okay... my latest rogue is wearing a buckler (reflavored as a manica) and wielding a dagger (in a spring loaded wrist sheath) and shortbow. he's considering a wizard dip to help with his duties as primary scout of the party.

As you can see, he isnt a TWF, nor is he using a two handed weapon. A wizard dip is subpar compared to other dips, but not bad. he isnt optimal, but hes my favorite rogue so far. (and I've played way too many rogues)

In essence, I dont follow my own advice. the OP asked for advice on a dwarf rogue, and I gave it. if he'd asked for advice on a human of elf rogue, it would have been different. Besides, "thematic" is a point of view.

IF the OP had asked for the most "fun" rogue build, my answer would have been different. As it is, OP asked for advice on how to build a combat based dwarf rogue, and I provided (what I believe) to be the best answer... for a rogue dwarf.

I guess we agree to agree this time :smalltongue:

My latest character is a dwarf rogue who's using a bow... typically non-typical.

My advice to the OP is still the same. Decide on what sort of combat you want to engage in and then the choices will narrow.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

I guess we agree to agree this time :smalltongue:

My latest character is a dwarf rogue who's using a bow... typically non-typical.

My advice to the OP is still the same. Decide on what sort of combat you want to engage in and then the choices will narrow.

I agree that we should agree to agree.

yeah OP... what kind of combat style do you want?

[bravebonebook]

Dragonmarked has a pretty neat prestige class for dwarven rogues called Silver Key. It uses the Kundarak Mark of Warding but might be of interest to you, even in a non-Eberron campaign.

[Zaq]

It's worth noting that Silver Key (which is an excellent class for its purpose, by the way) only requires that you be affiliated with House Kundarak. You don't have to have the dragonmark. This is nice, because it makes filing off the serial numbers much easier (requiring a certain affiliation is fluff, while requiring a certain feat, like a dragonmark, is crunch).