Gestalt, need help.

[SanusCompleo]

So I have this idea for an epic progression lich bard of some kind. I only recently discovered that gestalting was an availability. All -sorts- of options opened for me. I've never played a gestalt game, and never really felt like I wanted to.. But I might as well go with it as hard as possible. The classes I want to thrown in go something like this, Bard, Factotum (A good deal); Dirge Singer, Sublime Chord (Possibly Virtuoso), and at some point Ur Priest. Looking to make it as nasty as possible, but if it's really necessary, I'll drop Factotum.

Any thoughts/ideas etc? I haven't written up a full progression yet, working on that now to see what I can get.

[Hirax]

Fitting in all those prestiges classes to meaningful effect due to gestalt typically not allowing dual progression classes such as mystic theurges, and you're only allowed to have a prestige class on one side. You're going to need to make some choices. If you can swing those rules being dropped, you could do this:

Factotum/bard
Factotum/bard
Factotum/bard
Factotum/bard
Factotum/bard
Factotum/dirgesinger
Factotum/dirgesinger
Factotum/dirgesinger
Dirgesinger/urpriest
Dirgesinger/urpriest
Swiftblade/sublime chord
Swiftblade/sublime chord
Swiftblade/theurge
Swiftblade/theurge
Swiftblade/theurge
Swiftblade/theurge
Swiftblade/theurge
Swiftblade/theurge
Swiftblade/theurge
Swiftblade/theurge

This sets you up for epic progression in theurge and swiftblade for more epic feats. I know you didn't mention swiftblade, but who can say no to an extra standard action every turn? 2 extra standard actions if you use cunning surge.

[SanusCompleo]

Theurge isn't allowed, and Swiftblade is really not something I'm looking for. It's possible, but I'd love to get the most out of Sublime Chord... And Ur Priest, really. I'll ask about it. Mystic Theurge is available... but it will take up both level slots.

[Hirax]

Mystic Theurge is available... but it will take up both level slots.

If that's the case you're better off not using it and just taking each class all the way through, since they have actual class features. They're not great, but compared to the nothing of theurge. You're also going to need to see if you can be allowed 2 prestige classes at once.

[SanusCompleo]

If that's the case you're better off not using it and just taking each class all the way through, since they have actual class features. They're not great, but compared to the nothing of theurge. You're also going to need to see if you can be allowed 2 prestige classes at once.

If I can get the 2 prestige classes at once... Chances are I'm going to do something like this:

Factotum/Bard
Factotum/Bard
Factotum/Bard
Factotum/Bard
Factotum/Bard
Factotum/Dirgesinger
Factotum/Dirgesinger
Factotum/Dirgesinger
Bard/Dirgesinger
Bard/Dirgesinger

Then

Sublime Chord/Ur Priest
Sublime Chord/Ur Priest
Sublime Chord/Ur Priest
Sublime Chord/Ur Priest
Sublime Chord/Ur Priest
Sublime Chord/Ur Priest
Sublime Chord/Ur Priest
Sublime Chord/Ur Priest
Sublime Chord/Ur Priest
Sublime Chord/Ur Priest

Or perhaps swap out for other prestige classes. Would be nasty to get Incantatrix off of one level of Sublime Chord, and I'm not sure what to do with Ur Priest. It's pretty good as is. Maybe Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil instead of Incantatrix. Definitely, actually. That would be neat.

[vhfforever]

You only really need Ur-Priest 2, and would most likely be better off advancing its casting through another PrC that has more powerful/flavorful abilities.

[Hirax]

You only really need Ur-Priest 2, and would most likely be better off advancing its casting through another PrC that has more powerful/flavorful abilities.

+1

Same with sublime chord to a lesser extent. Contemplative6 would be good for ur-priest for a couple domains. If you want virtuoso, the classic thing to do is take it at 10th level, then take sublime chord at 11 and 12, then continue virtuoso at 13 and beyond to get full casting progression on sublime chord. Virtuoso's 10th level isn't very good anyway.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm)

It would be really bad to start your build out legal, play through a few levels, and then be told that you can't take two prestige classes together and be left wondering what to take in the later levels for a legit character.

Bard and Factotum don't exactly mesh well, considering you've got two high skill point classes, one Int-based and one Cha-based. I'd go something like Wizard//Factotum into Prestige Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigeBard), then get either Ur-Priest//Wizard or Dirgesinger//Wizard since you probably won't have room for both. It would go Wizard 5/ Prestige Bard 5// Factotum 8/ Wizard 2, with those two Wizard levels at Prestige Bard 1 and 3, and then either Wizard 10// Ur-Priest 2/ divine casting prestige classes 8, or get Wizard 5// Dirgesinger 5 and then maybe five more Prestige Bard with one more Wizard level at Prestige Bard 7, and more Factotum to fill in the rest. Get the Skeletal Minion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#necromancerVariants) since you'll have so many Wizard levels.

Another option would be Dread Necromancer//Factotum to 8th level, then on your way to Dread Necromancer 20 get one level of Prestige Bard and then Dirgesinger, and maybe Sublime Chord 1 and then more Prestige Bard after that. This would probably be your best option for the lich + undead minions route, though you would have to use your Factotum spells to qualify for Prestige Bard's Illusion and Enchantment prerequisites.

[SanusCompleo]

Unfortunately Factotum's SLAs can't qualify for anything. They're just cast somewhat similar to spells. But I like the idea of prestige bard... Just not sure where to put it. You're absolutely right about the skill point issue. And it does make the character rather MAD (Int/Cha & Dex). Maybe Factotum/Wizard(Or Sorcerer business, into Prestige Bard and as soon as that hits through, going into Dirge Singer, smidgen of Virtuoso (Haven't even read through it enough), then work on Sublime Chord 2, and start hitting for more caster lvels. Ur priest mixed with the Contemplative is neat... but Ur Priest doesn't get any domains, which is unfortunate.


Also: Is there an IRC channel for giantitp? It'd be awesome to chat about all these different things, rather than post.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Factotum mimics arcane spells as spell-like abilities. If a character is required to be able to cast a specific spell, or in this case a spell of a specific school, then a spell-like ability of that spell or school is typically enough to qualify. If you have a general arcane spellcasting ability and can use spell-like abilities of those specific schools then you should qualify. It would ultimately be up to your DM, but a Dread Necromancer into Prestige Bard is extremely fitting for this character and it would be reasonable to allow that to work.

Ur-Priest can still gain domains via prestige classes. It's all explained in Complete Divine on page 20.

Sublime Chord is Cha-based, Ur-Priest is Wis-based, and Factotum is Int-based, so I'd recommend picking either Cha/Int or Wis/Int, but don't try to use all three. If you use Ur-Priest then go with a Wizard/Prestige Bard, or if you use Sublime Chord then use Sorcerer or Dread Necro/Prestige Bard.

If you want to use Sublime Chord you could go something like the following:
1. Factotum 1// Sorcerer 1
2. Factotum 2// Sorcerer 2
3. Factotum 3// Sorcerer 3
4. Factotum 4// Sorcerer 4
5. Factotum 5// Sorcerer 5
6. Prestige Bard 1// Sorcerer 6
7. Prestige Bard 2// Factotum 6
8. Prestige Bard 3// Sorcerer 7
9. Mindbender 1// Factotum 7
10. Prestige Bard 4// Factotum 8
11. Sublime Chord 1// Sorcerer 8
12. Sublime Chord 2// Sorcerer 9
13. Prestige Bard 5// Sorcerer 10
14. Prestige Bard 6// Sorcerer 11
15. Prestige Bard 7// Sorcerer 12
16. Prestige Bard 8// Sorcerer 13
17. Prestige Bard 9// Sorcerer 14
18. Prestige Bard 10// Sorcerer 15
19. Prestige Bard 11// Sorcerer 16
20. Prestige Bard 12// Sorcerer 17
In this case, you should probably get Improved Familiar (DMG or CW version) or even Stitched Flesh Familiar (LM). Also consider the Stalwart Sorcerer variant in CM for +2 HP per Sorcerer class level, which would be a huge benefit if you do become a Lich.

[SanusCompleo]

Mindbender is really interesting here. I'm not really sure where all of the caster levels would come from though. I think that maybe a level of wizard to take the benefit of all these caster level bonuses would be helpful. Or perhaps something else that might be of benefit. Thank you so very much for the help. Prestige Bard is definitely a big/important possibility. I don't think they'd stack on with Sorcerer, which is sad.


Pfft. Disregard. I'm an idiot. Sublime caster bonuses, and straight sorcerer bonuses. Sublime chord still loses a level, probably swap around something for it. Haven't a singular clue what.

[deuxhero]

Factotum//Wizard/Wizard PRC
Factotum//Warblade
Warblade//Psion

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

9/10 Sublime Chord still gives you 9th level spells in it, and you would have to replace six Prestige Bard levels to avoid losing that caster level. Maybe pick up Divine Oracle 4 and Paragnostic Apostle 2 for those six levels, or Unseen Seer to keep up your skill points for the last half of the build.

[SanusCompleo]

Found an excellent progression for one side... only has nothing to do with bard, nor does it qualify for dirgesinger.

1 - Sorcerer//Factotum
2 - Sorcerer//Factotum
3 - Sorcerer//Factotum
4 - Sorcerer//Factotum
5 - Sorcerer//Factotum
6 - Ur Priest//Factotum
7 - Ur Priest//Factotum
8 - Contemplative//Factotum
9 - Contemplative//Sorcerer
10 - Contemplative//Sorcerer
11 - Contemplative//Sorcerer
12 - Contemplative//Sorcerer
13 - Contemplative//Sorcerer
14 - Divine Oracle//Sorcerer
15 - Divine Oracle//Sorcerer
16 - Dirgesinger//Sorcerer
17 - Dirgesinger//Sorcerer
18 - Dirgesinger//Sorcerer
19 - Dirgesinger//Sorcerer
20 - Dirgesinger//Sorcerer


Couple of problems. Dirgesinger has nothing to qualify for it, at all. Need bard in there somewhere, not sure where to fit it in. Don't think it gets 9th level arcane, but it does take Ur Priest to max, which it may or may not need. It would have to have something like 30 Wis, not sure what it is, to actually get a 9th level divine spell per day. Also, it drops sublime chord utterly. Theurgic casting with the bard is really what I'm looking for. Hrm. I'll be back, still going to keep an eye out. If all goes too badly, I'll go sorc/prestige bard/sublime chord//cleric

Also, haven't even -looked- at the skill points. Which isn't cool. Likely not many.

[SanusCompleo]

Unless... I use Foluchian Lyricist.

Use Factotum to learn Druidic somehow; if that's even still a requirement,

1 - Factotum//Bard
2 - Factotum//Bard
3 - Factotum//Bard
4 - Factotum//Bard
5 - Factotum//Bard
6 - Factotum//Bard
7 - Factotum//Bard
8 - Factotum//Ur Priest
9 - Bard//Ur Priest
10 - Bard//Sublime Chord
11 - Bard//Sublime Chord
12 - Foluchian Lyricist
13 - Foluchian Lyricist
14 - Foluchian Lyricist
15 - Foluchian Lyricist
16 - Foluchian Lyricist
17 - Foluchian Lyricist
18 - Foluchian Lyricist
19 - Foluchian Lyricist
20 - Bard/Factotum?

It's enhanced casting would come unfortunately late. But it would get Bardic music as well. Ultimately that's messy... and I'm not a fan of it.

Could remove Factotum all together, and throw in Sorcerer. Then qualifying for the druidic portion is much more difficult. Unless I take Able Learner, if that works.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

In that Dirgesinger build, you can switch Sorcerer to Wizard and get 9th level spells, plus that lets you dump Cha. Go for 9/10 Ur-Priest, you'll still get 9th level and you can put a level of (Prestige) Bard in there to qualify for Dirgesinger.

What level is this game starting out at, and what level do you expect to play to?

[SanusCompleo]

Starting at 10. Old playthroughs went to 40's

Here's what I'm looking at so far. Kind of removed Sorcerer all together, since I realized it will go long past 20.

1 - Bard//Factotum
2 - Bard//Factotum
3 - Bard//Factotum
4 - Bard//Factotum
5 - Bard//Factotum
6 - Ur Priest//Factotum
7 - Ur Priest//Factotum
8 - Contemplative//Factotum
9 - Contemplative//Bard
10 - Contemplative//Bard
11 - Contemplative//Bard
12 - Contemplative//Bard
13 - Contemplative//Bard
14 - Divine Oracle//Bard
15 - Divine Oracle//Bard
16 - Dirgesinger//Bard
17 - Lich
18 - Lich
19 - Lich
20 - Lich


I've got a question for those last four levels though: Do they take up both slots, or only one slot? Do they still work as Level Adjustment fairly with Gestalt? I couldn't find an actual answer where I looked.


EDIT: Bah. That's still really MAD. But Lich's Attribute bonuses help. A good deal. 14 Int, 16 Cha, 16 Wis starting, put 4 into Wis to bring it to 20... Factotum's still suffering here, but oh well. Lich brings Cha to 18, Wis to 22, and Int to 16. Probably 17 or something. Still need 20 wis to actually cast all of the Ur Priest spells. I should really drop Factotum for the time being. Replace with something that could help progression. Bard still gets plenty of skill points. Just not ALL of the skills.

[Hirax]

There's no rule for how to deal with level adjustment in gestalt, it's up to your DM.

[SanusCompleo]

This is almost a copy/paste of the other example above, but danced around the two CL dropping levels from Prestige Bard to get Sorcerer levels, making full 20th level Sorcerer advancement.

Advancement:
1 - Sorcerer//Factotum
2 - Sorcerer//Factotum
3 - Sorcerer//Factotum
4 - Sorcerer//Factotum
5 - Sorcerer//Factotum
6 - Prestige Bard//Sorcerer
7 - Prestige Bard//Factotum
8 - Prestige Bard//Sorcerer
9 - Prestige Bard//Factotum
10 - Prestige Bard//Factotum
11 - Sublime Chord//Sorcerer
12 - Sublime Chord//Sorcerer
13 - Mindbender//Sorcerer
14 - Prestige Bard//Sorcerer
15 - Prestige Bard//Sorcerer
16 - Prestige Bard//Sorcerer
17 - Prestige Bard//Sorcerer
18 - Prestige Bard//Sorcerer
19 - Prestige Bard//Sorcerer
20 - Prestige Bard//Sorcerer


Class Features:


BaB Fort Refl Will
1 - +0 +0 +2 +2 Inspiration, cunning insight, cunning knowledge, trapfinding, Summon Familiar
2 - +1 +0 +3 +3 Arcane dilettante (1 spell)
3 - +2 +1 +3 +3 Brains over brawn, cunning defense
4 - +3 +1 +4 +4 Arcane dilettante (2 spells), cunning strike
5 - +3 +1 +4 +4
6 - +4 +1 +6 +6 Bardic Music (countersong, fascinate, inspire courage +1), bardic knowledge
7 - +5 +1 +7 +7 Opportunistic piety
8 - +6 +2 +7 +7 Inspire competence
9 - +7 +2 +8 +8 Arcane dilettante (3 spells)
10 - +8 +2 +8 +8 Cunning Surge, Inspire courage +2
11 - +9 +2 +8 +10 Bardic lore, bardic music
12 - +9 +3 +8 +13 Song of arcane power
13 - +10 +3 +8 +15 Telepathy
14 - +11 +3 +9 +16
15 - +12 +4 +9 +16 Inspire Greatness
16 - +13 +4 +10 +17
17 - +13 +4 +10 +17 Song of Freedom
18 - +14 +5 +11 +18
19 - +15 +5 +11 +18 Inspire Courage +3
20 - +16 +5 +12 +19 Inspire heroics

From the looks of it, this bard actually manages to get 4 iterative attacks at a +16 BaB. (If my math is wrong with the BaB or saves, feel free to correct me... I think I'm a bit on the low side anyone.)

Good core bard abilities, plenty of spellcasting, going to have a problem with very little metamagic abilities. Will probably take extend spell/persist spell/quicken spell/chain spell, and if I'm -just- blasting, then dropping extend and persist spell. Dunno about subsonics or anything like that. Going to go see what sort of demoralizing bardic music feats I can come across. Really liking the looks of this guy. Oh, and with this build he doesn't go Lich until 20-24, reserving four levels to do so likely. Which is gonna be difficult to deal with.

Epic levels look like this:
21 - Prestige Bard//Lich
22 - Ur Priest//Lich
23 - Ur Priest//Lich
24 - Contemplative//Lich
25 - Contemplative//Psion
26 - Contemplative//Psion
27 - Contemplative//Psion
28 - Contemplative//Psion
29 - Contemplative//Psion
30 - Divine Oracle//Psion

31 - Divine Oracle//Psion
32 - Dirge Singer//Psion
33 - Dirge Singer//Psion
34 - Dirge Singer//Psion
35 - Dirge Singer//Psion
36 - Dirge Singer//Psion
37 - Seeker of the Song//Psion
38 - Seeker of the Song//Psion
39 - Seeker of the Song//Psion
40 - Seeker of the Song//Psion

With psion and seeker of the song because honestly I ran out of ideas at that point. Could try to acquire more templates; but nothing is really necessary. Any neat ideas would be appreciated! :)



EDIT: Also, wanted to thank everyone for pitching in. The Lichbard will be better than ever. Though he probably would've been great without having to be gestalt.

[SanusCompleo]

Okay. So. Level 10, 49,000 GP, 45,000 EXP... in Greyhawk. Sort of an arena/tournament game, something I've never done... which means I'll be facing PvP... something else I've never done. This is going to be good. First thing I'm going to work towards is becoming a Lich.

Qualifications for Lichdom
- 148,000 GP
- 4,800 XP to spare.
- Craft Wonderous Item.

As an essential Bard, I'm going to need a few feats to compliment. Requiem, for one, and Doomspeak. Doomspeak is lovely, and requires (At this moment) a DC 24 will save to keep from completely sucking (-10 penalty on attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks) for 1 round. That can always likely help. May have a spell stitched Imp familiar, or something along those lines. Would be costly, requiring Skin stitched familiar, and Improved Familiar... could stick with a Raven, I suppose... But Imps are so very very fun. Don't really have enough bonus feats, and definitely don't want to switch to Wizard. Maybe taking a pair of flaws.
Metamagics: Chain Spell, Extend Spell, and Silent Spell. Desecrate or any other suggestions welcome, I just don't know what to do with other things.

Equipment

Being a "Fake Bard" I have issue with armor. I may wear none, and just Mage Armor + Shield, and Cunning Defense for a grand total of 21 AC. Yeah. Definitely need more bonuses than that.

Probably will invest in a ranged weapon, and some ammunition. But if I have to use it, I'm not doing something right. Oh well, Factotum at this point really does go a long way to help. And on top of that, I'm a full sorcerer. Which is nice.

I'm honestly though not really sure what all I equipment I should get. Translocation Anklet, defending weapon, cloak of charisma? Tome of Leadership? Tough decisions. Bag of holding. Any ideas on this front? Using Perform (Singing) to make my perform checks, so a masterwork instrument is right out. I do this mainly to keep my hands free.

Others: I want to make use of that +8 BaB, and a not-so-bad Dexterity, going to pick up Weapon Finesse, a few mundane light weapons, and some kind of magical rapier, unless there's a better choice for finesse-able weapons.

Arcane Dilettante is really going to be helpful, in that I can pick up to 3 <3rd level Wizard spells per day. Well, it's not going to be fantastic, but a handful of utility spells will still be available to me, which is good.

I'll likely have a little bit in the way of backup, but I don't want to clutter up my spells known too horribly with undead generating things. Dirgesinger would be -so great- to get. Can't wait for it.



Perhaps I should take leadership? Or Undead leadership? Or Both? I've only got 5 feats (2 flaws?) so I should use them carefully. If giantitp has any suggestions, I'd be happy to hear.