Naruto d20: what's the attraction?

[Toptomcat]

So I kind of dig Naruto- more early Naruto than recent Naruto, when it's become a bit too much Dragonball with ninjas for my taste, but whatever. I want to play games set in this universe, and it seems that many others do as well.

But why on earth do they pick Frankto's Naruto d20 system to do it with? It's a thousand and twenty-four page supplement to another complete, already rather rules-heavy RPG system. Whole bolt-on subsystems interact in complex and difficult-to-predict ways with the existing rules and each other- Chakra, Techniques, Shinobi Skills, Strength and Speed Ranks, the Hostage Maneuver rules, Power Units...it's like d20 Modern with Exalted bolted on. It's insane. I would be ecstatic to play in a Naruto game run in a system that actually makes sense for it, like Mutants and Masterminds. Even D&D 3.5's psionics rules (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6002.0) do a far more elegant job of it than that ungodly chunk of rules. What's the deal?

[Ravens_cry]

Is that available in dead tree form? Because that is not so much a doorstopper as a <expletive redacted/> bulletstopper.

[Knaight]

Eh, its still better than HERO. As for why people use Naruto d20, its because so many people are stubbornly insistent on two things.
A) One uses D&D 3.x, period. One may or may not recognize the existence of other games.
B) One uses only what is clearly built and delineated for their purpose. Obviously, you couldn't just use the psionics rules, those are built for psionics, not Naruto.

Its a shame, because Mutants and Masterminds really would do a better job. A much better job. Or, with a different perspective, its fortunate, as fewer people play Naruto based games as a result.

[Ravens_cry]

And, depending on bullet of course, that is a bulletstopper. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nb1rWQ8kB-g)

[The-Mage-King]

But why on earth do they pick Frankto's Naruto d20 system to do it with? It's a thousand and twenty-four page supplement to another complete, already rather rules-heavy RPG system. Whole bolt-on subsystems interact in complex and difficult-to-predict ways with the existing rules and each other- Chakra, Techniques, Shinobi Skills, Strength and Speed Ranks, the Hostage Maneuver rules, Power Units...it's like d20 Modern with Exalted bolted on. It's insane. I would be ecstatic to play in a Naruto game run in a system that actually makes sense for it, like Mutants and Masterminds. Even D&D 3.5's psionics rules (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6002.0) do a far more elegant job of it than that ungodly chunk of rules. What's the deal?

...Has it occured to you that some people like ungodly amounts of rules? That they LOVE a system for complexity, and are angered when someone says "Try this, it's got less rules and is easier"?

Because that's why I like it. Ungodly amounts of rules? Check. Complex? Check.

[FatJose]

Because that's why I like it. Ungodly amounts of rules? Check. Complex? Check.

A lot of rules doesn't mean it's complex. A lot of rules can just mean it has a lot of rules.

[The-Mage-King]

A lot of rules doesn't mean it's complex. A lot of rules can just mean it has a lot of rules.

Which is why I said both.


Also, it is both.

[BlackestOfMages]

Which is why I said both.


Also, it is both.

hmmm, this bears taking a look at. I like things like that

Also, to point something out, adding up both phbs, the DMG, and all the completes, before anything likes the tomes, BoVD and the like, DnD 3.5 is already pushing 1.5k pages. and this is also before the monster manuals

so it's a small system, not a big one :smalltongue:

[FatJose]

Which is why I said both.

Also, it is both.
Should have quoted this.

...Has it occured to you that some people like ungodly amounts of rules? That they LOVE a system for complexity, and are angered when someone says "Try this, it's got less rules and is easier"?

This implies the two are related.

I don't like games that are too rules light because there is usually also a lot that I'm unable to do. At the same time, a game with 1000 pages of rules has a good chance of being 1000 pages because of really bad design. While, "streamlining" is often used as just a buzzword to sell a simple and boring game, it is a real thing. Take chess and checkers. I think Checkers is an awful game. It has merit in being simple but also has little to bring people in as anything other than a game to pass the time. Then you have Chess. Chess Has just enough rules to be complex instead of cumbersome for the kind of game it is.

[Hanuman]

It's a mainstream anime about ninjas, thats why its popular.

This is why it's thick: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/List_of_Naruto_episodes

[The-Mage-King]

Should have quoted this.

This implies the two are related.

I don't like games that are too rules light because there is usually also a lot that I'm unable to do. At the same time, a game with 1000 pages of rules has a good chance of being 1000 pages because of really bad design. While, "streamlining" is often used as just a buzzword to sell a simple and boring game, it is a real thing. Take chess and checkers. I think Checkers is an awful game. It has merit in being simple but also has little to bring people in as anything other than a game to pass the time. Then you have Chess. Chess Has just enough rules to be complex instead of cumbersome for the kind of game it is.

No. That implies that it is both complex and has a lot of rules, as the OP suggests. Not that they're related. That is a quote I've seen a lot online, and I was using it because people have said that about Naruto d20.

[FatJose]

No. That implies that it is both complex and has a lot of rules, as the OP suggests. Not that they're related. That is a quote I've seen a lot online, and I was using it because people have said that about Naruto d20.

I didn't take the OP's post to say the game is complex. It sounds more like they think the game is a Frankenstein of misery. Never played it or seen the thing myself but the OP sounds very negative about the game. Complex by its definition means that it's parts compliment and enforce the whole. Everything interconnects and relates. Instead of giving a defense on how the game system works, you are simply stating it's complex and has a lot of rules. That the rules system on its own is fun somehow.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Eh, its still better than HERO. As for why people use Naruto d20, its because so many people are stubbornly insistent on two things.
A) One uses D&D 3.x, period. One may or may not recognize the existence of other games.
B) One uses only what is clearly built and delineated for their purpose. Obviously, you couldn't just use the psionics rules, those are built for psionics, not Naruto.

Its a shame, because Mutants and Masterminds really would do a better job. A much better job. Or, with a different perspective, its fortunate, as fewer people play Naruto based games as a result.

Yeah, and for those people who don't have M&M (like me), why can't you just play Tashalatora and straight psions? And why can't Rock Lee be a whirling frenzy spirit lion totem barbarian 1/monk 2/warblade X/drunken master X with Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick? Sure, that Rock Lee build looks complicated, but it's rather easy to build if you know where everything is, and definitely isn't harder than reading 1024 pages.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Why? Simple. Some people can't get passed a system/class/whatever 's default fluff. You know these people exist. These are the people who will never play a build with more then one PrC. Or the people who HAVE to have levels in CW samurai for their character to be considered a "samurai" despite the fact a warblade can do it better. This kind of mentality can go beyond classes and actually spill out to PnP RPG systems as a whole. Sure, Mutants and Masterminds may do it better but to somebody with the mentality I mentioned above the name of the system and the fact it's books are loded with superhero imagery makes that system not worthy of modeling Naruto when a system with imagery of Hokages and Naruto shinobi, that has Naruto in the ******* name exists.

If somebody took Mutants and Masterminds and released a free Naruto supplement for it laden with Naruto-themed art, naruto characters started out as NPCs and perhaps even "new" powers(which could and most likely would just be existing powers renamed/refluffed) based on the jutus and abilities of the Naruto manga that you would see a lot of people using that for Naruto-based D20 games. Just call it "Sharingan & Shinobi," Kitsune & Kunochi" or something similar that dose not directly mention Mutants and Masterminds in title(but feel free to mention it inside the thing) and you'd be set.

I'd actually do that myself if I had a better understanding of M&Ms rules but I'm kinda a beginner to M&M and as a result I cannot do something like that. However, if somebody wanted to help....

[Knaight]

Yeah, and for those people who don't have M&M (like me), why can't you just play Tashalatora and straight psions? And why can't Rock Lee be a whirling frenzy spirit lion totem barbarian 1/monk 2/warblade X/drunken master X with Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick? Sure, that Rock Lee build looks complicated, but it's rather easy to build if you know where everything is, and definitely isn't harder than reading 1024 pages.

That would have been point b. I personally disagree with it just as much as point a, but its the common reason.

[Enix18]

Actually, once you take some time to read through the new rules in Naruto d20 you'll find that it's not that difficult to understand. Really, none of the systems are any more complex than what you'd find in D&D 3.5 (which is part of the attraction for my group of players, who have little experience with anything other than Dungeons & Dragons).

It sounds like a 1000+ page rulebook would take a hell of a long time to read, but that number is a bit disingenuous. The vast majority of that space is taken up by the statistics for hundreds of different jutsu, since the creator has gone through the painstaking process of stating out pretty much every technique that has appeared in the anime or manga, ever. If you just take the actually rules that are necessary to play, the Naruto d20 book is probably equivalent to a good-sized D&D supplement.

This is why the game is so well-like. Perhaps other systems might be able to handle Naruto more elegantly—but there is nothing else out there that provides the stats for almost every single aspect of the Naruto universe in a readily understandable format.

[Cerlis]

Yeah, and for those people who don't have M&M (like me), why can't you just play Tashalatora and straight psions? And why can't Rock Lee be a whirling frenzy spirit lion totem barbarian 1/monk 2/warblade X/drunken master X with Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick? Sure, that Rock Lee build looks complicated, but it's rather easy to build if you know where everything is, and definitely isn't harder than reading 1024 pages.

Because he doesnt have a chakra pool, he doesnt have defined rules on how he cant manipulate his chakra. there are no feats or abilities that properly represent unleashing the gates and non of those can reach the speed or strength that rock lee obtains. Since Rock lee is a very uncommon ninja, there might indeed not be exact rules for his special case, but thats not the point.

You can use current suppliment to mimic naruto. But you need an actual source if you want to actually have everything in the universe and have it work like its suppose to.

To me its like saying that compared to a Complete book, the DMG or players handbook is alot. or the Psionics handbook is alot. they are alot bigger because in order to be true to the system they have to add so many rules and so much info not in the standard books.

your everyday ninja has a chakra pool, can run on water, hide with the skill of an epic rogue, run faster than an epic monk, and Feel energy. you need an entirely different rule system and added suppliment, the current stuff can only pretend to be it.

[golentan]

*snip*

This man has it. It is a well maintained and thoroughly play tested patch which, in my mind, well captures the spirit of the setting and allows fine customization of very unique characters. It is free, even counting referencing the SRD. It has a small number of rules additions and changes. It is instantly embraceable and recognizable by anyone who has played 3.x/d20/pathfinder. And most of the complaints the OP puts forward strike me as silly. 1000+ pages? Yeah, almost entirely technique (read: spell) writeups. When we take out the classes, that's another vast chunk gone of the sort d20 players tend to gush over in supplements. Power ranks: optional template, that simple. No, really. Strength and Speed Ranks: effectively a shorthand for a common series of effects granted by techniques or as SLAs rather than spelling it out every single time.

I'm not saying you have to like it. There are good reasons for hacking it on your own in a generic system like MnM, in fact, though that in turn tends to get silly in its own ways. But slandering a labor of love because, near as I can tell from the complaint, the creator put too much effort into it? :smallconfused::smallannoyed:

[Callos_DeTerran]

But why on earth do they pick Frankto's Naruto d20 system to do it with? It's a thousand and twenty-four page supplement to another complete, already rather rules-heavy RPG system. Whole bolt-on subsystems interact in complex and difficult-to-predict ways with the existing rules and each other- Chakra, Techniques, Shinobi Skills, Strength and Speed Ranks, the Hostage Maneuver rules, Power Units...it's like d20 Modern with Exalted bolted on. It's insane. I would be ecstatic to play in a Naruto game run in a system that actually makes sense for it, like Mutants and Masterminds. Even D&D 3.5's psionics rules (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6002.0) do a far more elegant job of it than that ungodly chunk of rules. What's the deal?

It's been expounded upon before, but I'll do the same here having run a number of Naruto d20 games on the forums (I've probably run the most Nd20 games on these forums to be honest). The Naruto d20 system looks really daunting at first because it IS over a thousand pages...but the vast majority of that is techniques. After that is classes, then items, then bloodlines. All of which follow the same basic rules as in d20 modern/3.5 (except for techniques), which makes it really simple to understand. Once you cut out that stuff, there really isn't a whole lot to the book at all to be honest. Most of it covers the 'essential' variant stuff, chakra, elemental affinities, strength/speed ranks, and new uses for skills/new feats. Again, all of that's easy. Or was, I don't think I've downloaded the newest version yet. The other stuff? Hostage rules? Power units? Optional. I've never used them or seen them used to be honest.

Well...I might have USED the hostage rules, but the situation never came up.

Basically it's like any d20 system, you take what you want and cut away the stuff you don't. Like the various 'additional' systems presented in N d20's actual supplements? Optional, it's between the player and the GM if they ever see use.

Once you realize the vast majority of stuff in that, admittedly, huge pdf. is either just options for your character and all the really weird stuff is optional, it becomes much more appealing of a system to use and can quite accurately reflect the Naruto setting, you know...as it intends to. Is it perfect? No. But it's still under production and constantly being tweaked which both helps and infuriates me.

[icefractal]

Yeah, and for those people who don't have M&M (like me), why can't you just play Tashalatora and straight psions? And why can't Rock Lee be a whirling frenzy spirit lion totem barbarian 1/monk 2/warblade X/drunken master X with Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick? Sure, that Rock Lee build looks complicated, but it's rather easy to build if you know where everything is, and definitely isn't harder than reading 1024 pages.Actually, considering that character uses the XPH, UA, ToB, CW, and whichever book Tashalatora is from (ECS?), I think we're talking more than 1000 pages already.

Now building it from existing components is certainly an advantage to using it in an existing campaign, and for some people they've read all of those already, but it's not inherently easier.

[BlackestOfMages]

Actually, considering that character uses the XPH, UA, ToB, CW, and whichever book Tashalatora is from (ECS?), I think we're talking more than 1000 pages already.

yep, there we go. that character build requires a lot more paperwork AND flicking between different books to build.

just think how big the DnD rulebook would be if it was both PHBs, spell + magic item compendium, the DMG and all the splat-books rolled into one.

all I can suggest about the system would be cutting it into 3 pdfs. optional rules, main rules and techniques, to make it less daunting

[Callos_DeTerran]

I've suggested that too, on the Naruto d20 forums, but Frankto has all but said he's not going to do that. At least not until he feels the project is 'complete' which may well be never.

[Sipex]

I think the problem here lies in the idea that in order to play a Naruto RPG you need to use a system specifically made with Naruto in mind.

Not so.

As one poster already said, Mutants and Masterminds would do a good job but I also hear BESM works really well as well.

[FatJose]

Eh, still haven't read it but from what I read it has over 800 pages and 800 stated techniques? That doesn't seem that big at all.
If you look at the core books, a lot of it isn't rules. Monster Manual is just a tome of pregenerated monsters that you are free to change or not use at all. All together only about 40 pages of that is actual rules. Considering there is a section in the PHB on creating spells, the spell lists and spells themselves aren't really rules. The section on "how" to read spell descriptions is. So, if Narutod20 is really that big because of options, it doesn't have a lot of rules, does it?

[Frozen_Feet]

I think the problem here lies in the idea that in order to play a Naruto RPG you need to use a system specifically made with Naruto in mind.

Not so.

As one poster already said, Mutants and Masterminds would do a good job but I also hear BESM works really well as well.

Yes, but a system specifically made to simulate the setting as faithfully as possible will trump such systems for purposes of simulating that system. If it's decently done, at least.

[erikun]

Most likely the reason is that d20 is 1.) popular, and 2.) free. If you want someone to pick up and use 1000 pages of rules for your system, you don't want to tell them to go spend $30-$40 on another system first.

[NichG]

I think the most important thing for faithfully reproducing a setting is more what cannot be done in the setting, not what can. That is to say, its all well and good to say 'you can make Rock Lee using D&D rules or M&M rules or whatever', but the problem is you can also make Wizard builds, Cleric builds (with easy Raise Dead, no plottiness needed!), etc. At that point its basically asking for there to be a conflict between player and DM about 'that doesn't belong in Naruto!' 'Sure it does, it just never showed up exactly in the series, but I think it fits Naruto perfectly!'

On the other hand, if you throw out all that then you need a lot of material to replace it or your system will feel shallow. Thats why a big supplement can be necessary.

[artstsym]

Naruto d20 is rather poorly edited, and is mostly justu (read: spell) based, so yeah, it's going to be longer. If the only class in 3.5DnD was the Wizard, this is what might have happened to the PHB (hundreds of pages on spells and special rules regarding spells). The attraction comes in the fact that it is a COMPREHENSIVE system. As in, rules exist for every concept shown in the manga (or show, I don't know which one he prefers). This is attractive to people who like a well established world but don't really care about efficiency in rules.

I personally love and hate the jutsu system at the same time. If it weren't so enormous already, I would have sent in some fixes to tighten up the whole thing, but seriously, if it appears in the narutoverse, it appears in N20. That is a LOT of techniques.

But no, I agree that a lot of it is unnecessary. Especially strength and speed ranks. Those suck.

[Sotharsyl]

Hey at least they're trying, codifying a setting like Naruto is a valiant goal.

And I so do applaud people who chose a more grand target and give them extra credit.

The manga with it's habit of pulling out one new ultimate jutsu after the other is particularly well suited for d20 system,and it's nice to..for example in the earliest chapters Sakura a big deal was made that her chakra control could help even out the fact that she didn't have that much chakra and well it's a rule here.
A DM won't forget it her player won't forget it,but Kishi for example has forgot that aspect of Sakura and even the girl herself,while piling more and more on Naruto.

Plus I like trying to figure out why Shino has taken the Ninja Police PRC in the manual :) .

Also if I read one more system which just says "a fireball has the <fire> tag the DM should announce the damage taking the drama of the situation into account" I don't know what I'll do.