Wizard 20 versus Monk 1000?

[Hawk7915]

Inspired by this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12034794#post12034794), which I did not want to derail.


Try a Level 18 monk vs Level 20 wizard. I doubt it would trun out the same :smallamused:. At low levels a monk can easily beat a wizard because of limited spell slots, but at higher levels it wouldnt be hard for a wizard to beat a monk.


Lets make it fair, the Monk is level 25 against a lvl 20 Wizard... Eh... Time Stop good day sir...

Here's the basic question, then: at what level does a Monk (or Fighter, or Barbarian, or a Samurai...basically a tier 5-6 non-magic class) have a better than coin-flip chance of success against a level 20 Wizard? By better than coinflip, I mean "at what level is this not just 'who won initiative'"; at what level can a tier 5-6 class, alone, achieve victory over a wizard even if they lose initiative?

To lay out a few more ground rules (as is necessary for these thought exercises)

- The Golden Baseline Rule: The Wizard is level 20, 32 point buy. The Tier 5-6 class can be any level, 32 point buy. No matter their level, both characters have only the level 20 WBL (to prevent sheer WBL-mancy from deciding the victory).
- It is fair to assume that 24 hour buffs are up for both sides. For other buffs, see below.

Now, let's consider a few different conditions...
- Are all sources allowed, or is it core only?
- Does the tier 5-6 guy need to "Defeat" (read: kill or incapacitate) the Wizard, or merely overwhelm them enough to force the wizard to Greater Teleport to their private sanctum?
- Can the 5-6er do it with raw class levels, or does it require absurd template stacking? (Feral Spellwarped Half-dragon Half-minotaur Water Orc Mineral Warrior sorta nonsense)
- Battlefield selection: small, enclosed arena versus open plains versus difficult terrain?
- Is the wizard somehow ambushed in their lair, without time to prepare, or do they have all the time in the world?

Given different permutations of the above, can the tier 5-6 class ever win? Is victory only possible at level 47+ (the level a character can get 20+ ranks in UMD even cross-class)? Is victory only possible with Divine ranks? What do you guys think?

[maximus25]

Eventually, the monks spell resistance would overwhelm the wizard.

[Hirax]

Eventually, the monks spell resistance would overwhelm the wizard.

Lots of spells bypass SR. The monk's only ally in this fight is that the WBL for a thousandth level character would be...huge. You could afford to buy magic items with a high enough level that they couldn't be dispelled.

[WitchSlayer]

And considering the super initiative bonus the Monk would likely have, its likely no contest.

Also he'd probably end up taking every feat in core and probably most from splats as well.

[maximus25]

Lots of spells bypass SR. The monk's only ally in this fight is that the WBL for a thousandth level character would be...huge. You could afford to buy magic items with a high enough level that they couldn't be dispelled.

Except they both get WBL of a 20th level character. Also, as long as the monk can get into melee range (Dimension door) they flurry and hit like 9 times. 1000 level monk have epic 400+ to hit on each attack. A wizard does not have or think they need over 400 AC. Not to mention their saves, so anything the wizard tries to save or x spells, the monk can make that will save or fortitude save. They hit 9 times, dead wizard.

[Hawk7915]

Lots of spells bypass SR. The monk's only ally in this fight is that the WBL for a thousandth level character would be...huge. You could afford to buy magic items with a high enough level that they couldn't be dispelled.

See, that's why I figured "no bonus WBL" was a good rule, and why I was wondering if the Monk would ever have an advantage without it. A level 100 Monk (for the sake of argument) has crazy saves, all easily +60 minimum modifiers...but a Wizard has many spells that don't allow a save. He's got SR 100+, too high for a wizard to bypass even with Assay Resistance + various CL boosts...but tons of spells are SR: No. He's got a crazy amount of hitpoints...but anything with hitpoints can be killed

One entertaining point is that, if the table here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/classProgressions.htm#epicMonk) is extrapolated, a Monk eventually moves as quickly as a charge attack as a wizard might teleporting around...is there any way to exploit that?


And considering the super initiative bonus the Monk would likely have, its likely no contest.

Also he'd probably end up taking every feat in core and probably most from splats as well.

Devil's advocate: Celerity (as just one of any number of defenses and spells that I don't even know about) renders any initiative modifier, even an arbitrarily large one for a level 1000 monk who spent every epic feat on Great Dexterity after snagging Superior Initiative, moot, doesn't it?

[Drelua]

It would take a lot less than a thousand levels for the monk to win with freezing the lifeblood - at level 100 that's 60 plus the monk's surely ridiculous WIS modifier or be paralyzed for d4+1 rounds. Once the monk lands a hit with that, the fights over. Of course, if he loses the initiative and the wizard casts Time Stop, he might have trouble surviving all those spells, but I guess he should be okay with base saves of 52...

[NeoSeraphi]

A monk's SR would be enormous at higher levels, and his saving throws would also be immense. The only spells at a wizard's option would be "no save, no SR", of which there are few direct combat spells.

Additionally, the wizard's caster level would not be able to really do much against a monk with epic levels. (All saves at 50+, a belt of magnificence +10, and possibly a simple scroll of disjunction with a CL of 50 that the wizard would not be able to defend against)

The monk (with his much more than low Dexterity score) would most likely win initiative. With plenty of cross-class ranks in Use Magic Device, a scroll of disjunction would really mess the wizard up. Seriously, mess him up. Unless the wizard has time stop prepared, he would lose all his buffs and protection spells and just fall over flat. In the more likely event that the wizard does, in fact, have time stop prepared, he has no magic items left to protect himself with, and all his magical gear is gone. He is, put simply, a wizard, without any equipment or spells up.

Now, I know plenty of spells have hours/level duration and 24 hour durations. Those buffs still all had to be spells the wizard had prepared that day and cast that day. If he prepared them all twice and cast four of them again twice, then he's lost another four spell slots.

Say that the wizard somehow foresaw this and prepared quickened versions of his lower level buffs. So now he's lost another 8 spell slots, but regained 8 of his buff spells. He also used his time stop.

Time in. The monk, who was preparing to fight a wizard, definitely had more than one of those scrolls, so he rushes up to the wizard with his crazy movement and disjunctions again.

Now the wizard is dead.


Devil's advocate: Celerity (as just one of any number of defenses and spells that I don't even know about) renders any initiative modifier, even an arbitrarily large one for a level 1000 monk who spent every epic feat on Great Dexterity after snagging Superior Initiative, moot, doesn't it?
__________________


NO. Celerity cannot be cast while the wizard is flat-footed.

[NNescio]

And considering the super initiative bonus the Monk would likely have, its likely no contest.

Also he'd probably end up taking every feat in core and probably most from splats as well.

Foresight + Celerity.

Contingencies.

Shapechange -> Dire Tortoise.


Except they both get WBL of a 20th level character. Also, as long as the monk can get into melee range (Dimension door) they flurry and hit like 9 times.


After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn.


1000 level monk have epic 400+ to hit on each attack.

Doesn't help against miss chances. Or flat out immunity due to incorporealness.



Not to mention their saves, so anything the wizard tries to save or x spells, the monk can make that will save or fortitude save. They hit 9 times, dead wizard.

There are no-save, no-attack-roll, you-just-suck spells. Like say, Forcecage.


Celerity cannot be cast while the wizard is flat-footed.

That's why he has Foresight up. And contigencies just in case. Plus Shapechanging into a (flying) Dire Tortoise if he's paranoid.



Additionally, the wizard's caster level would not be able to really do much against a monk with epic levels. (All saves at 50+, a belt of magnificence +10, and possibly a simple scroll of disjunction with a CL of 50 that the wizard would not be able to defend against)


Level 20 WBL.

[NeoSeraphi]

That's why he has Foresight up. And contigencies just in case. Plus Shapechanging into a (flying) Dire Tortoise if he's paranoid.



Foresight has a duration of 10 min/level. It's not that useful when the monk has the advantage of surprise. And as for contingency, I was under the impression that evocation was the number one choice for specialist wizards to ban? Or are we not being realistic here?


Level 20 WBL.

I was typing my post before the OP edited that. Even so, a single scroll of disjunction is easily within reach of a 20th level character.

[Hirax]

It would come down to the monk somehow winning initiative and getting that shot off first though. If they miss their first shot, all the wizard would need to do is forcecage the monk, then cast doughnut AMF and stand next to them so they couldn't get out or use any magic items. Drown them via flashflood that can survive an AMF and game over.

[turkishproverb]

Devil's advocate: Celerity (as just one of any number of defenses and spells that I don't even know about) renders any initiative modifier, even an arbitrarily large one for a level 1000 monk who spent every epic feat on Great Dexterity after snagging Superior Initiative, moot, doesn't it?

Morbo Says: Celerity and Divinations DO NOT WORK THAT WAY. GOOD NIGHT!

[NeoSeraphi]

Morbo Says: Celerity and other Divinations DO NOT WORK THAT WAY. GOOD NIGHT!

Celerity doesn't divine anything. It's actually a transmutation spell. It lets you take a standard action as an immediate action.

[Heliomance]

See, that's why I figured "no bonus WBL" was a good rule, and why I was wondering if the Monk would ever have an advantage without it. A level 100 Monk (for the sake of argument) has crazy saves, all easily +60 minimum modifiers...but a Wizard has many spells that don't allow a save. He's got SR 100+, too high for a wizard to bypass even with Assay Resistance + various CL boosts...but tons of spells are SR: No. He's got a crazy amount of hitpoints...but anything with hitpoints can be killed

One entertaining point is that, if the table here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/classProgressions.htm#epicMonk) is extrapolated, a Monk eventually moves as quickly as a charge attack as a wizard might teleporting around...is there any way to exploit that?



Devil's advocate: Celerity (as just one of any number of defenses and spells that I don't even know about) renders any initiative modifier, even an arbitrarily large one for a level 1000 monk who spent every epic feat on Great Dexterity after snagging Superior Initiative, moot, doesn't it?

However, having Foresight up or being Shapechanged into a Dire Tortois means you're not flat-footed.

Really, at level 1000, I honestly can't see any way the monk could lose. Their SR is unbeatable, their saves are unbeatable, their touch AC is almost certainly unbeatable, and Evard's won't work because their grapple check is unbeatable. I don't know of any win spells that don't have saves OR SR OR touch attacks on them.
They can jump high enough to hit the wizard no matter how high he's flying, they can hear well enough to pinpoint his heartbeat even if he's invisible, they can move fast enough to keep up with any mobility effect short of Teleport and possibly even that, they can balance on the air itself to fly - which, incidentally, works in an AMF - they can Escape Artist through a Wall of Force, (and by extension, a Forcecage) and they can heal 2000 points of damage a day, if the wizard miraculously does manage to hurt them.

If the wizard has Mirror Image up, the monk either closes their eyes, uses Listen to pinpoint the square, and drops the miss chance with the Blind fight feat that they've almost certainly got in those thousand levels, or hits them anyway using the Blindfold of True Darkness. For incorporeality, the monk's fists have counted as magic since level 5, so the wizard isn't flat out immune. And there are assorted items that can help with that - a Ghost Touch Necklace of Natural Attacks, or more likely a Ghostly Shroud (MIC).

[Hirax]

they can Escape Artist through a Wall of Force, (and by extension, a Forcecage)

While they can, it wouldn't be helpful in combat.


Squeezing through a tight space takes at least 1 minute, maybe longer, depending on how long the space is.

I don't see anything in the epic usage section that allows them to do this more quickly. So yeah, forcecage, shaped AMF, and flashflood or similar = dead monk.

To be clear, the monk would die by drowning, not the damage from the flashflood spell itself. The monk has no way to breathe water, unless they're an aquatic race. If they are just use another similar conjuration spell that generates environmental no SR, no save, no AC effects.

[candycorn]

However, having Foresight up or being Shapechanged into a Dire Tortois means you're not flat-footed.

Really, at level 1000, I honestly can't see any way the monk could lose. Their SR is unbeatable, their saves are unbeatable, their touch AC is almost certainly unbeatable, and Evard's won't work because their grapple check is unbeatable. I don't know of any win spells that don't have saves OR SR OR touch attacks on them.
They can jump high enough to hit the wizard no matter how high he's flying, they can hear well enough to pinpoint his heartbeat even if he's invisible, they can move fast enough to keep up with any mobility effect short of Teleport and possibly even that, they can balance on the air itself to fly - which, incidentally, works in an AMF - they can Escape Artist through a Wall of Force, (and by extension, a Forcecage) and they can heal 2000 points of damage a day, if the wizard miraculously does manage to hurt them.

If the wizard has Mirror Image up, the monk either closes their eyes, uses Listen to pinpoint the square, and drops the miss chance with the Blind fight feat that they've almost certainly got in those thousand levels, or hits them anyway using the Blindfold of True Darkness. For incorporeality, the monk's fists have counted as magic since level 5, so the wizard isn't flat out immune. And there are assorted items that can help with that - a Ghost Touch Necklace of Natural Attacks, or more likely a Ghostly Shroud (MIC).

First: Superior Invisibility: Listen checks don't work, nor does most other forms of detection.
Second: Monk's fists have counted as magic for bypassing Damage Reduction. Not for hitting incorporeal creatures.

Yes, epic skills are crazy. However, UMD is the thing that could win this. A CL 30 scroll of Holy Word, or somesuch.

[NNescio]

Yes, epic skills are crazy. However, UMD is the thing that could win this. A CL 30 scroll of Holy Word, or somesuch.

Come to think of it, can Diplomancy work against the Wizard? Does he count as an NPC?

Edit: And is Leadership kosher?

[Terumitsu]

What you say is true, Heliomance, but the thing is, that only proves that the monk has arbitrarily immense numbers behind them.... Though I got the feeling that was what you were saying anyway in a somewhat roundabout manner.

In effect, monk pretty much has to kill the wizard immediately on the first round as it appears that even an extraordinarily leveled monk still has a good potential to be slain by a modicum of clever thought and spell usage.

[Heliomance]

While they can, it wouldn't be helpful in combat.



I don't see anything in the epic usage section that allows them to do this more quickly. So yeah, forcecage, shaped AMF, and flashflood or similar = dead monk.

A level 1000 monk can easily hold his breath for the minute it would take him to escape. Although, how is the wizard going to drown the monk? Either he's used the barred Forcecage, in which case the monk can very easily slip out through the bars, or he's used the solid version, in which case he doesn't have Line of Effect to the inside, and the monk has all the time he needs to squeeze out through the cage.

[Geddoe]

It would take a lot less than a thousand levels for the monk to win with freezing the lifeblood - at level 100 that's 60 plus the monk's surely ridiculous WIS modifier or be paralyzed for d4+1 rounds. Once the monk lands a hit with that, the fights over. Of course, if he loses the initiative and the wizard casts Time Stop, he might have trouble surviving all those spells, but I guess he should be okay with base saves of 52...

Freezing the Lifeblood does not work on the wizard, because any wizard can just put up heart of earth, air, fire, and water for crit immunity plus a few extra goodies just in case.

Also wizard's that ban evocation use shadow evocation to get contingency(or craft contingent spell feat if the DM's brain has left his body).

[Hirax]

A level 1000 monk can easily hold his breath for the minute it would take him to escape. Although, how is the wizard going to drown the monk? Either he's used the solid Forcecage, in which case the monk can very easily slip out through the bars, or he's used the solid version, in which case he doesn't have Line of Effect to the inside, and the monk has all the time he needs to squeeze out through the cage.

Bars still take a minute to get through by my reading, and that minute is 10 rounds for the wizard to flood the area and put up more walls of force than the monk could possibly hope to get through.

[Heliomance]

How many forcecages a day does your wizard prep? Walls of Force aren't useful since you can only form vertical planes, can't put a roof on them. And AMF is only 10ft radius. The wizard isn't going to do any better than the monk in the maze of water and forcecages, so they can't follow the monk through it to keep him in the AMF. As soon as he hits the edge of it, Abundant Step and he's out.

[Runestar]

Well, at that juncture, even if the wizard lacks the resources to 1-shot the monk, the monk at least can't even touch him (what with celerity+teleport or similar ability). :smalltongue:

[Heliomance]

Forcing the wizard to teleport away counts as a win for the monk, I think, as pinning down a wizard that wants to get away is nigh-on impossible.

[Hirax]

The wizard could also just cast frostfell on the water if he ceased to be amused by the monk trying to wriggle through force effects. Or time stop, plane shift to his genesis plane, play with his kids and see his wife for a while, get a good night's sleep and recover his spells, and plane shift back to the battlefield before the time stop has even expired.


How many forcecages a day does your wizard prep? Walls of Force aren't useful since you can only form vertical planes, can't put a roof on them. And AMF is only 10ft radius. The wizard isn't going to do any better than the monk in the maze of water and forcecages, so they can't follow the monk through it to keep him in the AMF. As soon as he hits the edge of it, Abundant Step and he's out.

Completely wrong on all counts, metamagic feats make all these concerns trivial.

[Hawk7915]

Okay, so it looks like Monk 1000 versus Wizard 20, regardless of sources available, is a no-win encounter for the Wizard. Unsurprising (although I hadn't even thought about the silliness that ensures with +100 mods in Listen, Jump, Balance, Climb, and Escape Artist for the monk :smalltongue:). There appears to be some debate on whether or not the monk can kill the wizard. Nevertheless, the wizard is forced to plane shift to another world of existence from this crazy level one-thousand monster, as no possible tactic available to him will ensure victory. Sound about right?

So the second part of the question: what level does the monk have to be to create said "no-win" scenario, given the level 20 WBL limits outlined in the OP?

[BobVosh]

There is always the classic of celerity + teleport + divinations against the monk + whatever that silly spell is that kills the target's love.
I can't remember what it is, but someone can post it, its a spell with no save, no SR and kills a random person that the person you targets love.

[NeoSeraphi]

We're all assuming that both players are fighting on even ground here. But since even ground will always favor the wizard, why would the monk choose it? If the monk was targeting the wizard, he could simply disjunction the wizard's sleeping body to remove all lingering magical effects and then attack him while he is asleep.

Even if the wizard woke up, he would not have any spells prepared (save the ones he had yesterday, by RAW, I suppose)

I just don't see why we should be thinking like this is some kind of "random encounter". An monk with that many levels is not going to just run into a wizard and fight him for no reason, this would be a specific wizard he was targeting. And in that respect, strategy is key.

[Heliomance]

Completely wrong on all counts, metamagic feats make all these concerns trivial.

Really? How?

[Hirax]

Really? How?

Well, for starters, widen and/or sudden widen. Start with time stop and put up 2 sets of bars around the monk. Widen your shaped AMF, cast flashflood. The wizard now has 20 rounds to watch the monk squirm, and again, time stop and plane shift to and from the battlefield with a whole new set of spells. They can also just freeze the water via frostfell and take the monk home as a trophy.

[BobVosh]

We're all assuming that both players are fighting on even ground here. But since even ground will always favor the wizard, why would the monk choose it? If the monk was targeting the wizard, he could simply disjunction the wizard's sleeping body to remove all lingering magical effects and then attack him while he is asleep.

Even if the wizard woke up, he would not have any spells prepared (save the ones he had yesterday, by RAW, I suppose)

I just don't see why we should be thinking like this is some kind of "random encounter". An monk with that many levels is not going to just run into a wizard and fight him for no reason, this would be a specific wizard he was targeting. And in that respect, strategy is key.

Level 20 wizards tend to sleep in their own demiplanes that don't allow anyone else to enter.
In fact they tend to project out so they never physically leave.

[NeoSeraphi]

Well, for starters, widen and/or sudden widen. Start with time stop and put up 2 sets of bars around the monk. Widen your shaped AMF, cast flashflood. The wizard now has 20 rounds to watch the monk squirm, and again, time stop and plane shift to and from the battlefield with a whole new set of spells. They can also just freeze the water via frostfell and take the monk home as a trophy.

Or the monk could bring a scroll of disintegrate, a rod of cancellation, a sphere of annihilation, or a scroll of disjunction. Preparing to fight forcecage would be a must.

Edit:


Level 20 wizards tend to sleep in their own demiplanes that don't allow anyone else to enter.
In fact they tend to project out so they never physically leave.

I was assuming we were talking about an NPC wizard versus a PC monk. NPCs tend to act a bit less...optimized and a bit more normal and realistic than PCs. Though I suppose sleeping in his own demiplane might just be something a high-level wizard would do anyway.

[Hirax]

Or the monk could bring a scroll of disintegrate, a rod of cancellation, a sphere of annihilation, or a scroll of disjunction. Preparing to fight forcecage would be a must.

Edit:



I was assuming we were talking about an NPC wizard versus a PC monk. NPCs tend to act a bit less...optimized and a bit more normal and realistic than PCs. Though I suppose sleeping in his own demiplane might just be something a high-level wizard would do anyway.

Do any of those function in an AMF? And I think we're already nerfing the wizard enough by making him be a wizard20, let's not trivialize it too much.

[Heliomance]

Your average level 20 wizard does not in fact have a personal demiplane with time flowing at a stupid rate. It's touted on CO boards a lot, but it doesn't really see play. After all, Elminster's the biggest Mary Sue of a wizard ever, and he doesn't.

20 rounds is also piddlingly easy for the monk to hold his breath for. And the interactions of time stop when plane shifting to a plane with alternate time is hazy at best. I'd say that as it's a personal buff - it speeds you up, it doesn't actually stop time - it goes with you to your faster time plane. Thus as soon as you vanish, the monk is free to Abundant Step out, unless you want to come back within 1d4+1 rounds of your time. And with a >1000 escape artist check, the monk should really have no trouble at all breaking out of a block of ice/

[Frosty]

Your average level 20 wizard does not in fact have a personal demiplane with time flowing at a stupid rate. It's touted on CO boards a lot, but it doesn't really see play.This, in all of my years of playing DnD, this has never happened in any campaign I've played in or DMed.

It's really uncommon in standard play.

[Morph Bark]

Monk's saves, SR and AC are incredibly high. At level 1000 he has a +1110 enhancement bonus to his movement speed, which can become greater due to the Epic Speed feat. He likely has Pounce due to Dire Charge, as well as incredibly high energy resistance.

The Wizard will need to hit him with something that does not target AC (unless he catches the Monk flat-footed), does not allow saves or SR and does not deal energy damage or weapon damage.

If the Monk has a way to prevent the Wizard from making him flat-footed, then he has the upper hand. His only problem is actually defeating the wizard, who can fly. Then again, by level 1000 he can have 1003 ranks in Jump, allowing him to Jump at least 251 high with no bonus to Strength and rolling a 1.

Does Diplomancing the Wizard into submission count? :smallamused:

Either way, the Wizard will lose this one. One level more though and he would win.

[Heliomance]

If the Monk has a way to prevent the Wizard from making him flat-footed, then he has the upper hand. His only problem is actually defeating the wizard, who can fly. Then again, by level 1000 he can have 1003 ranks in Jump, allowing him to Jump at least 251 high with no bonus to Strength and rolling a 1.


A balance check DC 120 allows you to stand on thin air. The monk can fly just fine.

[Morph Bark]

A balance check DC 120 allows you to stand on thin air. The monk can fly just fine.

A cloud, actually. There are no DCs given for Balancing on thin air*. Though presumably with 1003 ranks in Balance the Monk could do even that.


*Then again, this is presuming a cloud has more support than thin air, which is a rather large assumption.

[Zerter]

Elminster is an idiot.

Also, the Monk would never win.

I mean sure, if the Wizard was a moron and lets himself be caught flat-footed. But the thing is, a Wizard has about a 100 spells that make sure he never is (from the entire school of divination to a simple polymorph). After that he just has to make sure he does not get killed (hi immediate teleports and the thousand other ways) and start throwing disjunctions. All the Monk's items get a saving throw: big deal. Cast five disjunctions, plane-shift away, take a nap, come back the next day (no problem tracking that Monk down) and repeat until successful.

A Monk without items... don't think I got to explain that one. Everybody's imagining a very unoptimized and dumb Wizard if they think he's just gonna die in the first round.

[deuxhero]

If the Monk has a way to prevent the Wizard from making him flat-footed, then he has the upper hand. His only problem is actually defeating the wizard, who can fly. Then again, by level 1000 he can have 1003 ranks in Jump, allowing him to Jump at least 251 high with no bonus to Strength and rolling a 1.

No. Jump good.


The answer to this question is obvious: The monk, easily, as he has a Wizard 999 cohort and a planet of followers (including some 20th level wizards) through leadership shenanigans. :p


In seriousness though.


Are there any spells that would function against a target that

Would make any save
Dodge any attack roll
Have enough hit points to make raw damage pointless
Break down or walk around any barrier
?

All the save or x I know that matter here (grease render them flat footed, by that does little good) are worthless.




Personally, assuming the Monk has Pierce Magical Concealment and the gear to counter Wizard tricks (assumeing the wizard), I think the Monk might defeat the Wizard's astral projection, to which the Wizard realizes through high INT the Monk would be terrible at finding him (esp if he has Genesised a plane), let alone reaching him, and ignore him.



Hmm, have Batman and The Flash ever fought in work DC published (video games with versus modes like JLTF or MKVDC excluded)

[BobVosh]

I personally love how its a question if a monk of 1000 can beat a wizard of 20. Something about that is amazing. More over its if a NPC wizard can beat a PC monk of 1000. When the monk surprised the wizard.

[Heliomance]

Personally, I really don't think there is a question. There is no way the wizard could win. He could escape, sure - the monk couldn't catch him on a different plane. But he couldn't kill the monk.

[deuxhero]

Yes: Shrug his shoulders, go to his slow time (sub) demi plane and wait for the monk to die of old age, as without magic, he has no real means of immortality, even at epic levels, as far as I know.

[Heliomance]

A Monk without items... don't think I got to explain that one.

Actually, please do. At levels 1-20, I'd agree with you. But at level 1000? He really doesn't need the items. They're handy, yes, but not necessary. He has an attack bonus of Enough. He has Enough damage. His saves are High Enough. He can fly non-magically by balancing on the air. His AC is Enough. His spell resistance is literall unbeatable. What exactly does he need items for?

Also, doesn't becoming an Outsider at 20th mean he won't die of old age?

[Morph Bark]

The answer to this question is obvious: The monk, easily, as he has a Wizard 999 cohort and a planet of followers (including some 20th level wizards) through leadership shenanigans. :p

I actually once calculated how high the Leadership score would need to be to get level 20 followers. A level 1000 Monk couldn't do it.

Also, it would be a level 998 cohort. :smalltongue:


Yes: Shrug his shoulders, go to his slow time (sub) demi plane and wait for the monk to die of old age, as without magic, he has no real means of immortality, even at epic levels, as far as I know.

And this is why fights should have their win parameters defined. Though the default is "kill the other guy". Hence why if the wizard just goes to his demiplane and waits for the monk to die of old age, he doesn't win either. Besides, what if the wizard dies before then?

[deuxhero]

Also, doesn't becoming an Outsider at 20th mean he won't die of old age?

Only "for the purpose of magical effects", so no, the monk still doesn't get a use out of one of the few class "features" that is actually a nerf.



Also, it would be a level 998 cohort. :smalltongue:


If the Monk is abusing leadership, he'll likely pick up the feat that makes his cohort 1 level under instead of 2.


The wizard doesn't die of old age as he goes to a plane where time on the material moves faster comparitively, at least doubling his life-span (and failing that, Wish). Wizard is screwed against and Elan, Elf or Warforged monk though.

[Dictum Mortuum]

Do monks have a way to be immune to constitution damage or poison (I don't have much experience with epic stuff)? Then Forcecage -> Cloudkill and wait.

What is funny about duels such as this, is that the monk has no way of winning unless he uses the Wizard's tricks.

[deuxhero]

Aside from really really really high con from the 260 +1s to stats ?

Either you use windowless cell and can't put cloudkill in it, or you use a cage and the monk DDs out.

[candycorn]

Aside from really really really high con from the 260 +1s to stats ?

Either you use windowless cell and can't put cloudkill in it, or you use a cage and the monk DDs out.

Time Stop
1) Cloudkill
2) Forcecage (windowless)

[Dictum Mortuum]

Aside from really really really high con from the 260 +1s to stats ?

Either you use windowless cell and can't put cloudkill in it, or you use a cage and the monk DDs out.

Quicken Spell or multiple action abuse (celerity, belt of battle, etc).

[Eldariel]

Monks are immune to Poison from 11... I find it hard to believe Cloudkill is the only Fort-partial spell tho. I guess there's always Sufficient Number Of Explosive Runes (they have no save for adjacent targets) or Shrunk Items but that's kinda boring.

[Nightmarenny]

Is it just me or does it seem like most people don't read the OP before posting and assume the title tells you everything you need to know? the amount of people suggesting that teleporting away is a win for the wizard is staggering.

[ranagrande]

The Wizard doesn't stand a chance; nothing he can do will work against the Monk.

Because it's one of the few things the Monk isn't naturally immune to, he's sure to buy a Periapt of Proof Against Poison, so Cloudkill won't work.

Both characters can fly, so that isn't an advantage for the Wizard. The Monk will either buy that ability too, or if Lords of Madness is allowed he will take some aberrant feats including Starspawn.

If the Wizard is lucky, he might be able to escape. If he does try to fight, the Monk will destroy him easily.

[Dictum Mortuum]

The Wizard doesn't stand a chance; nothing he can do will work against the Monk.

Because it's one of the few things the Monk isn't naturally immune to, he's sure to buy a Periapt of Proof Against Poison, so Cloudkill won't work.

Both characters can fly, so that isn't an advantage for the Wizard. The Monk will either buy that ability too, or if Lords of Madness is allowed he will take some aberrant feats including Starspawn.

If the Wizard is lucky, he might be able to escape. If he does try to fight, the Monk will destroy him easily.

You need to actually say how he will be able to do that :P

[Calintares]

Would dust of sneezing and choking function against the monk?

[ranagrande]

A level 1000 Monk will have a speed of at least 3230 ft per round. He can move double on a charge, so if the Wizard is close enough to cast a long range spell, the Monk is close enough to attack.

The Monk will only miss the Wizard on a roll of 1, and is likely to one-shot kill if he hits.

[lesser_minion]

Time Stop
1) Cloudkill
2) Forcecage (windowless)

Monks are immune, so that won't work (Cloudkill is explicitly noted as being a type of poison, and as not working at all on creatures that are immune to poison -- Diamond Body, gained at 11th level, makes monks immune to poison).

Dust of Sneezing and Choking would work, unless the monk was somehow immune to being stunned.

[ranagrande]

Monks are immune, so that won't work (Cloudkill is explicitly noted as being a type of poison, and as not working at all on creatures that are immune to poison -- Diamond Body, gained at 11th level, makes monks immune to poison).

Dust of Sneezing and Choking would work, unless the monk was somehow immune to being stunned.

Oh so they are. I had overlooked Diamond Body.

Dust of Sneezing and Choking could give the Wizard more time to run away, but there isn't really anything it can do on offense even if the Monk is stunned.

[Dictum Mortuum]

A level 1000 Monk will have a speed of at least 3230 ft per round. He can move double on a charge, so if the Wizard is close enough to cast a long range spell, the Monk is close enough to attack.

The Monk will only miss the Wizard on a roll of 1, and is likely to one-shot kill if he hits.

Abrupt Jaunt.

OK, I forgot diamond body, too. However, Eldariel already pointed out two other ways that could work.

[Heliomance]

Abrupt Jaunt.

At which point the monk reverses direction and has enough movement left to hit you anyway, because I know there are many ways to gain the ability to turn in the middle of a charge.

[DeAnno]

One thing people seem to be forgetting is feats. Does a feat exist to prevent drowning (or breathing)? The monk has it. Does a feat exist to teleport (Martial Study: Shadow whatever)? The monk has it. Does a feat exist to walk and chew gum at the same time? The monk has it. He has over 300 feats.

The monk has a HIDE check, one of +1000 or similar. The monk has a collar of continous umbral something or other, so he has HIPS. If the monk goes first, and somehow he cant get to the wizard, he can run 500 feet away and hide in plain sight, and if the wizard doesn't find the monk next round the monk can easily come attack the wizard some more and then retreat since he has flight from some feat-based source (Dragon Wings anyone?) and Flyby attack.

Invisibility means nothing for the wizard. The monk has a +1000 spot check that makes the bonus to hide from invisibility while standing still (+40) a joke. The monk has all the archery feats, and can kite the wizard and send ridiculously dangerous volleys of force arrows (from a forcebow) from half a mile away using Greater Manyshot or something similar.

The monk is extremely fast and has WBL 20. He can plane shift to the astral plane and use his massive spot check and fly speed to bounce around until he finds the Silver cord of the astrally projecting Wizard and cut it like it's hot.

The monk has Iron Heart Surge, and lols at the Wizard's BS.

Basically this is a game of how many feats the monk needs to get the job done.

[ranagrande]

If nothing else, the Monk can simply stand around and wait the Wizard to exhaust his spells and wealth and then smack him down.

Explosive Runes shouldn't work; with the Monk's spot check there is no reason for him to ever read something less than ten feet away from him.

All of the ways I can think of for using shrunk items should require a attack roll or allow a save, so they wouldn't work either.

[Dictum Mortuum]

Martial Study

Actually, there's a valid response to what could beat a wizard. I forgot about martial study-stance. Iron Heart Surge can make things difficult.


Explosive Runes shouldn't work; with the Monk's spot check there is no reason for him to ever read something less than ten feet away from him.


You and any characters you specifically instruct can read the protected writing without triggering the runes. Likewise, you can remove the runes whenever desired. Another creature can remove them with a successful dispel magic or erase spell, but attempting to dispel or erase the runes and failing to do so triggers the explosion.

:smallwink:

I won't get into shrunken items, as they're just too many of them. There are ways though.


At which point the monk reverses direction and has enough movement left to hit you anyway, because I know there are many ways to gain the ability to turn in the middle of a charge.

Arguably, you can use the teleportation effect when he finishes his movement, before he makes his first attack. I don't think he can continue acting after that.

[mootoall]

Best way to kill the Monk through straight damage is to kidnap a commoner, Mind Rape it into loving the Monk, then casting Love's Pain repeatedly. Or, he can Gate in a deity he has favor with, and that wins the fight for him. All of this is sans being anywhere near the Monk.

[Glimbur]

The monk (with his much more than low Dexterity score) would most likely win initiative. With plenty of cross-class ranks in Use Magic Device, a scroll of disjunction would really mess the wizard up. Seriously, mess him up. Unless the wizard has time stop prepared, he would lose all his buffs and protection spells and just fall over flat. In the more likely event that the wizard does, in fact, have time stop prepared, he has no magic items left to protect himself with, and all his magical gear is gone. He is, put simply, a wizard, without any equipment or spells up.

Disjunction offers a save to magic items. As it is from a scroll, the save is the minimum i.e. 10+9+4 for DC 23. The wizard has a base will save of +12 just from Wizard 20. Save boosters are very likely. Disjunction is scary for taking down buffs, but most magic items should be ok. Disjunction also takes a standard action while quite close to the wizard... the monk could instead just hit the wizard with Stunning Fist or whatever. That might be more helpful.

Sufficient abuse of Planar Binding could get a rather large horde for the wizard, but, as mentioned, the monk will be difficult to hit and has SR of YES. Superior Invisibility and Etherealness together are a good start for the wizard... or he could use the combo that makes him immune to hit point damage, at which point it's kind of a stalemate until the spell durations run out. Illusions will be less helpful than usual because they can be defeated with epic skill checks. I'm also not seeing how the wizard could win.

[Starbuck_II]

The monk has Iron Heart Surge, and lols at the Wizard's BS.

Basically this is a game of how many feats the monk needs to get the job done.

The wizard take Iron Heart Surge and Surges away the Monk's life. :smalltongue:

[Killer Angel]

This, in all of my years of playing DnD, this has never happened in any campaign I've played in or DMed.

It's really uncommon in standard play.

So are lev. 1000 monks... :smallamused:

Are we really considering an "optimized" lev. 1000 monk PC, Vs a lev. 20 unoptimized lev. 20 wizard NPC?

Seriously, in the best case, the wizard will not be able to win and leave.
Which is not exactly a win for the monk: its target is gone. So, a tie.

[ranagrande]

You and any characters you specifically instruct can read the protected writing without triggering the runes. Likewise, you can remove the runes whenever desired. Another creature can remove them with a successful dispel magic or erase spell, but attempting to dispel or erase the runes and failing to do so triggers the explosion.
The Monk doesn't attempt to dispel or erase it. He looks at it and sees writing and then thinks to himself, "I'm going to move over here to a safe distance and then read it, just in case it's a bomb, which I know that it could be due to my high Knowledge(arcana) score."



I won't get into shrunken items, as they're just too many of them. There are ways though.
Like what? I actually want to know.


Arguably, you can use the teleportation effect when he finishes his movement, before he makes his first attack. I don't think he can continue acting after that.
Sure he can. He just uses Quick Draw and ranged attacks instead. It's still likely to one-shot the Wizard.


Best way to kill the Monk through straight damage is to kidnap a commoner, Mind Rape it into loving the Monk, then casting Love's Pain repeatedly. Or, he can Gate in a deity he has favor with, and that wins the fight for him. All of this is sans being anywhere near the Monk.
After the first casting of Love's Pain, the Monk can use one of his Scrolls of Antimagic Field. No deity will agree to help fight against the Monk, because he already will have used his Epic Diplomacy with them.

[DeAnno]

Seriously, in the best case, the wizard will not be able to win and leave.
Which is not exactly a win for the monk: its target is gone. So, a tie.

You could pretty much say the same about the monk, since a Speed and Hide check of that magnitude along with WBL 20 means he can't be found if he doesn't want to be.

[Hirax]

Your average level 20 wizard does not in fact have a personal demiplane with time flowing at a stupid rate. It's touted on CO boards a lot, but it doesn't really see play. After all, Elminster's the biggest Mary Sue of a wizard ever, and he doesn't.

20 rounds is also piddlingly easy for the monk to hold his breath for. And the interactions of time stop when plane shifting to a plane with alternate time is hazy at best. I'd say that as it's a personal buff - it speeds you up, it doesn't actually stop time - it goes with you to your faster time plane. Thus as soon as you vanish, the monk is free to Abundant Step out, unless you want to come back within 1d4+1 rounds of your time. And with a >1000 escape artist check, the monk should really have no trouble at all breaking out of a block of ice/

Nope, escape artist's epic usage says a medium creatures can get through a 2 inch hole, not break any sort of enclosure. Escape artist has no provisions for breaking anything; you slip out of manacles and through openings, you don't burst them.

WBL is in play? Forget flashflood, the wizard casts blizzard (obtained via arcane disciple or a scroll), then whips out a pair of control ice and snow wands (easily affordable with WBL), and using dual wand wielding generates hundreds of feet of snow, while remaining on top of it as the monk quickly gets stuck beneath it (forcecage). A sudden empowered frostfell freezes the snow and encases the monk in a 300 foot cube of ice. Encumbrances of AMF are gone thanks to a weirdstone (PGTF), which stops any sort of teleportation or etherealness by the monk. Expensive, but effective, and it specifically says it can be made by a 20th level character. But if you want to be a cheapskate you can cast a shaped AMF and polymorph into something that would have no problem being nearby the struggling monk. Weirdstone gets around ridiculous interpretations of IHS ending AMFs, though.

What's the DC to break through 150 feet of ice that has hundreds more feet of snow on top of it (we're constrained by frostfell only freezing 300 feet)? Let's say 6 inches of wood (break DC of 20) is equivalent to 2 feet of ice. We're outside the scope of the rules, but let's assume, therefore, that breaking a foot of wood or 4 feet of ice would be a DC 40. 150 feet of ice would therefore be DC 1,500.

Assuming you spent every single epic feat and stat bump to increase your strength you're going to be at 600~. So maybe you're hitting 350 on your strength check? I don't think there's a reasonable way you could thumb sketch the DC in such a way that 350 gets you out. If you can't make the DC, you can't burst out, and you either suffocate or die from cold damage within 3 hours.

Meanwhile the wizard is torn with indecision. He's bored, but he doesn't want to leave his weirdstone there for a few hours while the monk freezes/suffocates. What does he do to kill the time?

To recap the sequence, assuming 15 rounds with a celerity giving you a sudden maximized time stop:
1: Dazed
2: Quickened resist energy (it's gonna get cold!) and forcecage (bars)
3: Blizzard, quickened fly (to stay above all the snow).
4: Pull a weirdstone out of your bag of holding or do a shaped AMF and quickened polymorph. Fly and resist energy aren't necessary if you use poly/AMF.
5-14: Use wands to generate enough snow to encase the victim in a 300' of ice with sudden empowered frostfell. You've got enough time for several casting of frostfell if you want more ice, and have the spells prepared, or scrolls.
15: Start to build a snowman while you wait for the monk to die.

edit: forgot celerity makes you dazed

[Killer Angel]

You could pretty much say the same about the monk, since a Speed and Hide check of that magnitude along with WBL 20 means he can't be found if he doesn't want to be.

I agree with that, but who's the one that should prove something? The wizard ("I always win") or the monk ("I'm lev. 1000 against a lev. 20")?
Meh, a tie is a tie...

[DeAnno]

Nope, escape artist's epic usage says a medium creatures can get through a 2 inch hole, not break any sort of enclosure. Escape artist has no provisions for breaking anything; you slip out of manacles and through openings, you don't burst them.


The Epic usage of Escape Artist lets you go through Walls of Force (or similar force effects) at DC 120.



WBL is in play? Forget flashflood, the wizard casts blizzard (obtained via arcane disciple or a scroll), then whips out a pair of control ice and snow wands (easily affordable with WBL), and using dual wand wielding generates hundreds of feet of snow, while remaining on top of it as the monk quickly gets stuck beneath it (forcecage). A sudden empowered frostfell freezes the snow and encases the monk in a 300 foot cube of ice.


The monk has 300 feats. He has enough cold resistance from those to be immune to freezing. As for breathing, holding breath is based on your Con score, and there are various feats which multiply it. The Monk probably has a Con of at least 100 and can happily sit down under the ice for minutes as he wonders how to ambush you. He can plane shift or teleport out via scroll, and I'm not even sure what those AMF hijinx of yours were but he doesn't care because he has scrolls of Invoke Magic as well.



Meanwhile the wizard is torn with indecision. He's bored, but he doesn't want to leave his weirdstone there for a few hours while the monk freezes/suffocates. What does he do to kill the time?


While your Astral projected wizard watches the snow waiting for the monk to die he's flying through the astral plane faster than the speed of sound looking for your silver cord to cut.



To recap the sequence, assuming 15 rounds with a celerity giving you a sudden maximized time stop:


I like how you assume that you'll go first with Foresight+Celerity when the monk can do the same thing with a couple scrolls, probably has nondetection anyway, and has an initiative check possibly +100 higher than yours.

[noparlpf]

Well, let's see. A level 1000 Monk would win initiative, Abundant Step over, hit with his +505 BaB, and the Wizard would (19 times out of 20) fail the ridiculous Fort save for Quivering Palm at level 1000.

[Hirax]

The Epic usage of Escape Artist lets you go through Walls of Force (or similar force effects) at DC 120.



The monk has 300 feats. He has enough cold resistance from those to be immune to freezing. As for breathing, holding breath is based on your Con score, and there are various feats which multiply it. The Monk probably has a Con of at least 100 and can happily sit down under the ice for minutes as he wonders how to ambush you. He can plane shift or teleport out via scroll, and I'm not even sure what those AMF hijinx of yours were but he doesn't care because he has scrolls of Invoke Magic as well.



While your Astral projected wizard watches the snow waiting for the monk to die he's flying through the astral plane faster than the speed of sound looking for your silver cord to cut.



I like how you assume that you'll go first with Foresight+Celerity when the monk can do the same thing with a couple scrolls, probably has nondetection anyway, and has an initiative check possibly +100 higher than yours.

Bursting through ice is not a valid use of escape artist in this case. You're slipping through a wall of force by looking around for a hole. You don't have that same ability to root around for a hole while you're encased in ice and can't move in a meaningful way. To say that you could use escape artist in this situation is laughable. Furthermore, walls of force are how thin? Assuming you could use escape artist, what's the DC to get through 150 feet of ice? Weirdstone prevents teleportation, and he would suffocate.

I already posted earlier that this assumed that the wizard was able to get a turn off, of course. I'm aware that in this bizarre fantasy with the world's stupidest level 20 wizard, that the monk will always win initiative.

[turkishproverb]

Celerity doesn't divine anything. It's actually a transmutation spell. It lets you take a standard action as an immediate action.

MORBO DID NOT MEAN TO USE THE WORD OTHER THERE! :smallredface:

[DeAnno]

Weirdstone prevents teleportation, and he would suffocate.

Ah ok, didn't know that's what it did. The monk Polymorphs something with a burrow speed (or maybe has one himself from some random Dragon Mag feat, who knows) using a scroll and sneaks out by way of underground, then ambushes the Wizard/goes to the astral plane as appropriate.

[Hirax]

Ah ok, didn't know that's what it did. The monk Polymorphs something with a burrow speed using a scroll and sneaks out by way of underground, then ambushes the Wizard/goes to the astral plane as appropriate.

How are you pulling out a scroll while you're encased in ice?

[DeAnno]

How are you pulling out a scroll while you're encased in ice?

Strength check. He cant clear his way through all the ice, but he sure as sunshine can shatter all the ice in his immediate vicinity.

[Hirax]

Strength check. He cant clear his way through all the ice, but he sure as sunshine can shatter all the ice in his immediate vicinity.

Debatable. We're entering catgirl territory. That assumes that the ice is layered in some way, which it isn't, it's just a solid hunk. TO affect ice nearby you, you'd also need to affect ice on the surface. At the end of the day, if you want any sort of flexibility, you need to push against tons of ice, and that requires a bigger strength check than even this monk can handle.

[The Glyphstone]

As an amusing thought experiment, would it be possible for a wizard who devoted his entire spell loadout to Enervations and Energy Drains, metamagiced however, to drain 1000 levels?

Without PrCs like Dweomerkeeper, I don't think the wizard can win. He can't lose, or at least can't be killed, but he can't kill the monk with what he has available to him.

[candycorn]

Ok. Everyone is touting the monk's feats, tactics, optimization abilities, and the like. You're forgetting one thing that a wizard can choose to have...

...enough Solars to occupy every square within a mile and a half of him. All fanatically loyal, having been gained via simulacrum.

...Ice assassin copies of every deity in existence.

What those arguing for the monk fail to realize is that there. is. almost. no. way. to. beat. a. fully. optimized. wizard.

Carrying optimization to its threshold means that there is nowhere to move on the planet, because it's filled with simulacrums. At that point, how many SR: No saves must a monk roll to fail one?

Team caster can throw ten thousand times that number of spells. In a round.

[Morph Bark]

Arguably, you can use the teleportation effect when he finishes his movement, before he makes his first attack. I don't think he can continue acting after that.

The wizard will need to start far away enough for that then though.


Best way to kill the Monk through straight damage is to kidnap a commoner, Mind Rape it into loving the Monk, then casting Love's Pain repeatedly. Or, he can Gate in a deity he has favor with, and that wins the fight for him. All of this is sans being anywhere near the Monk.

On the Gate idea: the Monk can Diplomance it into being fanatic towards him. :smallwink:


How are you pulling out a scroll while you're encased in ice?

Epic Sleight of Hand.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Okay, seriously? Monkday is tomorrow. Come back during the weekly topic rehash and we'll discuss it further.

[The Glyphstone]

Carrying TO to its threshhold means it's just a contest between which of the two comes up with the idea to become Pun-Pun first, so it's not actually of any use to the discussion to go there.

[Hirax]

...enough Solars to occupy every square within a mile and a half of him. All fanatically loyal, having been gained via simulacrum.


I was going to post this before I came up with the blizzard method, but people were already complaining about using as genesis method against a thousandth level character. So keep that hand tied behind your back ;)




Epic Sleight of Hand.

This is already a ridiculous enough thread, let's not bring homebrew skill uses in.

[AmberVael]

Ok. Everyone is touting the monk's feats, tactics, optimization abilities, and the like. You're forgetting one thing that a wizard can choose to have...

...enough Solars to occupy every square within a mile and a half of him. All fanatically loyal, having been gained via simulacrum.

...Ice assassin copies of every deity in existence.

What those arguing for the monk fail to realize is that there. is. almost. no. way. to. beat. a. fully. optimized. wizard.

Carrying optimization to its threshold means that there is nowhere to move on the planet, because it's filled with simulacrums. At that point, how many SR: No saves must a monk roll to fail one?

Team caster can throw ten thousand times that number of spells. In a round.

:smallannoyed:

The monk chooses Epic Leadership. Epic Level Wizard, level 998.

Level 20 Wizard chooses 'lose.'

[ranagrande]

Bursting through ice is not a valid use of escape artist in this case. You're slipping through a wall of force by looking around for a hole. You don't have that same ability to root around for a hole while you're encased in ice and can't move in a meaningful way. To say that you could use escape artist in this situation is laughable. Furthermore, walls of force are how thin? Assuming you could use escape artist, what's the DC to get through 150 feet of ice? Weirdstone prevents teleportation, and he would suffocate.

I already posted earlier that this assumed that the wizard was able to get a turn off, of course. I'm aware that in this bizarre fantasy with the world's stupidest level 20 wizard, that the monk will always win initiative.

The Monk can always attack the ice to break it. Ice doesn't have a very high Hardness. There are feats that can keep the Monk from needing to breathe, but he can hold his breath long enough to escape anyway.



Ok. Everyone is touting the monk's feats, tactics, optimization abilities, and the like. You're forgetting one thing that a wizard can choose to have...

...enough Solars to occupy every square within a mile and a half of him. All fanatically loyal, having been gained via simulacrum.

...Ice assassin copies of every deity in existence.

What those arguing for the monk fail to realize is that there. is. almost. no. way. to. beat. a. fully. optimized. wizard.

Carrying optimization to its threshold means that there is nowhere to move on the planet, because it's filled with simulacrums. At that point, how many SR: No saves must a monk roll to fail one?

Team caster can throw ten thousand times that number of spells. In a round.
The Wizard's Simulacrums are limited by his starting wealth. The Monk can use Diplomacy on everyone in the multiverse to create a similar effect against the Wizard.

[DeAnno]

Debatable. We're entering catgirl territory. That assumes that the ice is layered in some way, which it isn't, it's just a solid hunk. TO affect ice nearby you, you'd also need to affect ice on the surface. At the end of the day, if you want any sort of flexibility, you need to push against tons of ice, and that requires a bigger strength check than even this monk can handle.

Materials exist in 5 foot cubes, and he could pulp a 5 foot cube of the ice. Since the ice is solid (and not miles and miles deep) it doesn't exert pressure on the pulped 5 foot cube, and the monk can "swim" through it for the purposes of getting out gear.

Assuming that being buried is a common thing for infinite level characters to avoid though, the monk is probably a Warforged anyway and can just wait you out.

Edit to prevent spam:



...enough Solars to occupy every square within a mile and a half of him. All fanatically loyal, having been gained via simulacrum.

...Ice assassin copies of every deity in existence.


The monk can easily diplomance any NPC the wizard chooses to bring to bear, regardless of them being fanatical for the wizard to start with.

[Flickerdart]

Epic Sleight of Hand.
Epic Sleight of Hand lets you steal sheathed weapons and hide objects a little ways away. It does not allow you to become incorporeal.

[gooddragon1]

Actually candycorn it's much simpler than that. It's 1 casting of polymorph any object.

Casting 1: polymorph self into self with str, dex, con, int = lol

Criterion:
Same Kingdom (Yes): +5
Same Class (Yes): +2
Sime Size (Yes): +2
Related (Possibly): +2
Same or Lower Intelligence (No): +0
Result: +11
11>9
Duration=Permanent

Have this done far in advance and win initiative with initiative role of d20+lol.
Throw spell book at monk.
Make attack roll of 1d20+10 BAB+lol-4 (nonproficiency)
Damage equal to 1dspellbook + lol

With the above in mind, there is no way for a monk of any level to beat a wizard of at least 15th level who has learned polymorph any object (and with con of lol even if they won initiative somehow)

NOTE: If you can cast PaO through a scroll at a lower level then that works too.

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah, PAO doesn't work that way. "Myself, but with god stats" is not a creature, so you can't transform into it.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Ok. Everyone is touting the monk's feats, tactics, optimization abilities, and the like. You're forgetting one thing that a wizard can choose to have...

...enough Solars to occupy every square within a mile and a half of him. All fanatically loyal, having been gained via simulacrum.

...Ice assassin copies of every deity in existence.

What those arguing for the monk fail to realize is that there. is. almost. no. way. to. beat. a. fully. optimized. wizard.

Carrying optimization to its threshold means that there is nowhere to move on the planet, because it's filled with simulacrums. At that point, how many SR: No saves must a monk roll to fail one?

Team caster can throw ten thousand times that number of spells. In a round.
Wizard needs TO to win. That's a win for the monk, in my book. But the monk has 1000 levels, so it's no wonder.

[AmberVael]

Ok. Everyone is touting the monk's feats, tactics, optimization abilities, and the like. You're forgetting one thing that a wizard can choose to have...

...enough Solars to occupy every square within a mile and a half of him. All fanatically loyal, having been gained via simulacrum.

...Ice assassin copies of every deity in existence.

What those arguing for the monk fail to realize is that there. is. almost. no. way. to. beat. a. fully. optimized. wizard.

Carrying optimization to its threshold means that there is nowhere to move on the planet, because it's filled with simulacrums. At that point, how many SR: No saves must a monk roll to fail one?

Team caster can throw ten thousand times that number of spells. In a round.

:smallannoyed:
The monk chooses Epic Leadership. Epic Level Wizard, level 998.
Level 20 Wizard chooses 'lose.'

For the slightly more serious discussion...

For those wanting to trap the monk under tons and tons of stuff, let me point out that the monk will most likely have Shattering Strike at this point, which will allow him to easily succeed at break DCs over 1000.

SR is really high. You might get around it with some kind of crazy optimization, but I don't know what.

Anything that is a ranged attack fails due to Infinite Deflection and Exceptional Deflection.

Any attack against the Monk needs to not provoke SR, provoke enough saves that the monk will fail (and at this point, the monk likely has some method for rerolling failed saves, so assume you need to toss out a hundred or so- not too hard, so long as you find a way to keep coming back day after day) or not provoke a save at all, and preferably is an area or targeted attack (melee is likely to fail due to absurd AC and various miss chances, but if you can roll a 20 consistently it might still work).

[Heliomance]

ITT: People get butthurt that it's possible to stack the odds enough against a wizard that he actually loses.

Come on, people. It is possible for a wizard to lose. I'm pretty sure you don't even need a 980 level advantage, but with that many levels it's pretty much impossible to win.

[Flickerdart]

so long as you find a way to keep coming back day after day
This is not a problem since level 9. Both the Monk and the Wizard have resources plenty to Planar Bind a Nightmare and force it to Astral Project them. The difference is that it costs the Monk loads of money to keep this up, while the Wizard just spends a couple of his spell slots.

[candycorn]

The Wizard's Simulacrums are limited by his starting wealth. The Monk can use Diplomacy on everyone in the multiverse to create a similar effect against the Wizard.

Sigh. Really?

1) Gate: Call Solar. Service: Provide portion of itself.
2) Cast Simulacrum. Use portion to make solar.
3) Instruct Solar to use Miracle SLA to cast Simulacrum,, using a portion of itself. Instruct Solar to order any simulacrum it makes to obey you in all ways, and to give this exact instruction to any simulacrum it makes.
4) Repeat 3 until you have 15 solars for every creature in the multiverse, including insects.

As for TO optimization?
You're giving a class a 980 level advantage, and declaring every valid-rules legal way to beat it "too close to TO and Pun-Pun".

This is using THE wizard class feature (spellcasting), and three core spells. That's it. We're not drill mining 77 sourcebooks. And if the monk is falling back on DIPLOMACY and LEADERSHIP, then I'd submit that both sides are drinking deep from the bucket of cheddar sauce.

[Morph Bark]

:smallannoyed:
The monk chooses Epic Leadership. Epic Level Wizard, level 998.
Level 20 Wizard chooses 'lose.'

A Monk with Cha 25, Epic Leadership, Leadership and Legendary Commander has a Leadership score of at least 1007, meaning he has:

- 977000 level 1 followers
- 97700 level 2 followers
- 48850 level 3 followers
- 24425 level 4 followers
- 12213 level 5 followers
- 6107 level 6 followers
- 3054 level 7 followers
- 1527 level 8 followers
- 764 level 9 followers
- 382 level 10 followers
- 191 level 11 followers
- 96 level 12 followers
- 48 level 13 followers
- 24 level 14 followers
- 12 level 15 followers
- 6 level 16 followers
- 3 level 17 followers
- 2 level 18 followers
- 1 level 19 follower

This means he can have 6 followers that can cast 9th-level spells.

[AmberVael]

This is not a problem since level 9. Both the Monk and the Wizard have resources plenty to Planar Bind a Nightmare and force it to Astral Project them. The difference is that it costs the Monk loads of money to keep this up, while the Wizard just spends a couple of his spell slots.

Yeah, I fully expect you can find ways for the wizard to keep coming back, if you think about it. Probably more than just Astral Projection, really. While it's easy for the monk to pick up defenses via feats, the monk is still probably quite limited in attack forms, so a careful wizard really might just be able to port in, throw spells, port out, refresh.

[Hirax]

@everyone saying attack the ice: Whether you can even attack is debatable for the same reason being able to get out a scroll is debatable. You're frozen. There's nowhere to move. The wizard can use move ice and snow to make sure of it. In fact, the wizard can keep using move ice to spin you around or reposition you if he wants you in a particular position for some aesthetic reason. I still say being able to get any sort of maneuverability at all first involves a strength check.


ITT: People get butthurt that it's possible to stack the odds enough against a wizard that he actually loses.


:smallwink:




This means he can have 6 followers that can cast 9th-level spells.

Wizard can chain gate solars for 9th level casting allies.

[candycorn]

A Monk with Cha 25, Epic Leadership, Leadership and Legendary Commander has a Leadership score of at least 1007, meaning he has:"

- 977000 level 1 followers
- 97700 level 2 followers
- 48850 level 3 followers
- 24425 level 4 followers
- 12213 level 5 followers
- 6107 level 6 followers
- 3054 level 7 followers
- 1527 level 8 followers
- 764 level 9 followers
- 382 level 10 followers
- 191 level 11 followers
- 96 level 12 followers
- 48 level 13 followers
- 24 level 14 followers
- 12 level 15 followers
- 6 level 16 followers
- 3 level 17 followers
- 2 level 18 followers
- 1 level 19 follower

This means he can have 6 followers that can cast 9th-level spells.
So let me get this straight.

Monk gets 980 extra levels.
Monk gets access to all of the commonly known most unbalanced abilities in the game, including leadership and diplomacy.
If the wizard has anything that will win, then that something is disallowed, because it's too cheesy (unlike the fine gouda above).

Yes, under the rules that posit that every powerful tool a wizard has is disallowed, and the monk can use whatever it likes, and the monk has 50 times the class levels, then, under those very specific conditions, the monk can win.

[AmberVael]

*facepalm*

The point is, if the wizard side starts doing crap like that, the monk side can just make their own wizard (or wizards) and do it right back, but worse. Leadership, and the various gate and minion cheeses, are likely best left alone for the purposes of this discussion.

[Mystic Muse]

The Monk doesn't attempt to dispel or erase it. He looks at it and sees writing and then thinks to himself, "I'm going to move over here to a safe distance and then read it, just in case it's a bomb, which I know that it could be due to my high Knowledge(arcana) score."


The wizard tries to dispel it himself and intentionally fails his check.

I think a couple hundred D6 of damage several times will be enough to take out even a level 1000 monk.





As for TO optimization?
You're giving a class a 980 level advantage, and declaring every valid-rules legal way to beat it "too close to TO and Pun-Pun".

This is using THE wizard class feature (spellcasting), and three core spells. That's it. We're not drill mining 77 sourcebooks. And if the monk is falling back on DIPLOMACY and LEADERSHIP, then I'd submit that both sides are drinking deep from the bucket of cheddar sauce.

I agree with candycorn here. Diplomacy and Leadership are no better for the Monk to fall back on than TO tricks for the wizard to fall back on. I don't think it's unreasonable for a wizard to use tricks like these on an enemy with SR and saves: "Haha no" when there's almost no other way to kill said enemy.

[Morph Bark]

If we take summoned/called creatures, followers, cohorts and basically any sort of ally not gained through class features (familiar) out of the equation, I presume that would make things slightly more reasonable.

Otherwise it would just be a proxy victory.

[candycorn]

*facepalm*

The point is, if the wizard side starts doing crap like that, the monk side can just make their own wizard (or wizards) and do it right back, but worse. Leadership, and the various gate and minion cheeses, are likely best left alone for the purposes of this discussion.

The point is, if a Wizard is taking on a challenge that is... let's see... 980 CR higher than him.... solo...

You should see the point.

Besides, Leadership requires DM approval before use, explicitly, in the written text for the feat. Simulacrum is right there, listed as a spell known option for the wizard.

See? The difference is the wizard gets Gate, and minion cheese... for free, as part of his class features.


If we take summoned/called creatures, followers, cohorts and basically any sort of ally not gained through class features (familiar) out of the equation, I presume that would make things slightly more reasonable.

Otherwise it would just be a proxy victory.Is there something less valid about personally creating an unstoppable army that wins?

[Hirax]

EH, I'll agree leaving out minionomancy on both sides is probably for the better. Really, the wizard needs to figure out how to get initiative for starters. Initiative still results in a win for whoever gets it as far as I'm concerned.

[DeAnno]

I agree with candycorn here. Diplomacy and Leadership are no better for the Monk to fall back on than TO tricks for the wizard to fall back on. I don't think it's unreasonable for a wizard to use tricks like these on an enemy with SR and saves: "Haha no" when there's almost no other way to kill said enemy.

He has the right to respond to TO with TO. Leadership and Diplomancy are no worse than using Gate and Simulacrum to build a Solar army.

Also, Glyphs of Warding allow Reflex saves, so the monk is going to Evasion out of the huge majority of that damage and soak the rest with his 1000d8+1000*(Con mod) hp, which is in the neighborhood of 30,000 for a paltry 60 Con.

[Kazyan]

Re: The ice trick. Ice melts under pressure. Take some twine and press it over an ice cube; it will get inside of the cube because the surface ice melts and refreezes. With the monk's STR score, he can exert enough pressure with any movement to instantly melt the ice, so how he's basically in a swimming pool. He'll swim out of the ice, towards the wizard, jump out, thank the wizard for the impromptu shower, and then somone has to come up with a different ass-kicking measure.

[Mystic Muse]

EH, I'll agree leaving out minionomancy is probably for the better. Really, the wizard needs to figure out how to get initiative for starters.

That'd be easier if we could settle on the situation under which the wizard would be fighting the Monk. As far as I can tell, we still haven't decided whether either of them are PCs, whether the Monk gets to flat-foot the wizard, and a whole manner of other things that should have been laid out for the sake of the discussion.

[Morph Bark]

Is there something less valid about personally creating an unstoppable army that wins?

You're not personally creating them, you're just calling them to you. That's no different from Leadership or Diplomancing, effectively.

Now if the Wizard used animate dead, that's something different. But then we need to impose preparation limits on the Wizard as well. I'd propose a prep time of 8 hours.

[Hirax]

Re: The ice trick. Ice melts under pressure. Take some twine and press it over an ice cube; it will get inside of the cube because the surface ice melts and refreezes. With the monk's STR score, he can exert enough pressure with any movement to instantly melt the ice, so how he's basically in a swimming pool. He'll swim out of the ice, towards the wizard, jump out, thank the wizard for the impromptu shower, and then somone has to come up with a different ass-kicking measure.

The ice is kept cold via magic from a spell that has a duration measured in hours. So nope.

edit: spell in question is frostfell

[Basket Burner]

I think the best part of this thread is the people that assume a 20th level anything is not immune to death, paralysis, and stunning effects. Especially not a Wizard. Though the people claiming the Monk would win come close.

Celerity Foresight Timestop.
Shapechange to Choker.
Forcecage.
Gate to Elemental Plane of Fire or Water.
Shapechange to Beholder.

The Monk is now in a Forcecage, which is in an AMF, which is in a lava or waterfall. Now simply wait for him to burn to death or drown.

If he does somehow, by some miracle get to and kill the Wizard, it was an Astral Projection. Oops, your Wizard is in another castle plane of existence.

I think the real interesting question is how does a Monk survive long enough to reach level 20, much less 1,000?

[DeAnno]

The ice is kept cold via magic from a spell that has a duration measured in hours. So nope.

edit: spell in question is frostfell

If we're bringing in physics to the discussion, water can exist in a liquid state while below 0*C if under sufficient pressure. I have no idea if STR 300 can bring that pressure to bear, but since Strength scales exponentially in terms of force (as seen by carrying capacity) it's certainly possible.

[Morph Bark]

EDIT: Added a few extra parameters to make it more clear.

I think the following encounter parameters are reasonable:
- They are both PCs.
- The Monk goes first due to superior Initiative.
- They start standing 1200 ft away from one another on an open, featureless, grassy plain with clear weather. This is the only plane in existence.
- They both have had 8 hours to prepare.
- The wizard may not use summoning or calling spells, but he may use minions acquired through other methods not otherwise barred by these parameters.
- Neither may use Leadership or Diplomacy.
- "Winning" is defined as "killing the other guy". Death from old age does not count.


Bonus points for those who can have the Monk win without using scrolls, potions or wands or other ways to gain access to "effective spellcasting".

[Mystic Muse]

He has the right to respond to TO with TO. Leadership and Diplomancy are no worse than using Gate and Simulacrum to build a Solar army.

Also, Glyphs of Warding allow Reflex saves, so the monk is going to Evasion out of the huge majority of that damage and soak the rest with his 1000d8+1000*(Con mod) hp, which is in the neighborhood of 30,000 for a paltry 60 Con.

I was talking about Explosive runes actually, which doesn't allow a saving throw if it's close enough. Though, it's not exactly non-cheesy at that point either.

EDIT: Didn't realize that accounted for SR. Never mind.

I think the wizard side pretty much admits that there's no way to win without cheese at this point.

So, yes. Given infinite SR, the ability to make any save the wizard can dish out, immunity to several spells, and an obscene amount of HP such that blasting will do pretty much nothing, the Monk wins if the wizard doesn't use cheese.

[Arundel]

Re: The ice trick. Ice melts under pressure. Take some twine and press it over an ice cube; it will get inside of the cube because the surface ice melts and refreezes. With the monk's STR score, he can exert enough pressure with any movement to instantly melt the ice, so how he's basically in a swimming pool. He'll swim out of the ice, towards the wizard, jump out, thank the wizard for the impromptu shower, and then somone has to come up with a different ass-kicking measure.

I must have missed the rules on friction in relation to ice.

This whole argument is getting pretty silly. Frankly it reminds me of (and makes equal sense to) this whole debate (http://www.electricferret.com/fights/issue_156.htm). I will say this debate could definitely use better parameters though. Every possible thing tends to be dismissed as TO by one side or the other.

I am curious though, every legit monk strategy I have seen looks like it could be easily replicated by a level 1000 commoner. That seems like a monk lose by default.

[DeAnno]

I am curious though, every legit monk strategy I have seen looks like it could be easily replicated by a level 1000 commoner. That seems like a monk lose by default.

The monk's natural Speed, AC bonus, and SR actually have come in handy.

[Hirax]

If we're bringing in physics to the discussion, water can exist in a liquid state while below 0*C if under sufficient pressure. I have no idea if STR 300 can bring that pressure to bear, but since Strength scales exponentially in terms of force (as seen by carrying capacity) it's certainly possible.

Er, I should have written that it is kept frozen, not just cold. Relevant snippet:

"all water is turned to ice and all earth and stone becomes everfrost"

It's magic, which leads me to believe it trumps natural friction, but yeah, catgirl territory. Big time.

[candycorn]

He has the right to respond to TO with TO. Leadership and Diplomancy are no worse than using Gate and Simulacrum to build a Solar army.

Also, Glyphs of Warding allow Reflex saves, so the monk is going to Evasion out of the huge majority of that damage and soak the rest with his 1000d8+1000*(Con mod) hp, which is in the neighborhood of 30,000 for a paltry 60 Con.

Let's assume Explosive Runes on the book.
Anyone next to the runes (close enough to read them) takes the full damage with no saving throw;
But even so, let's assume 95% of these are ineffective.
6d6 averages 21 damage. For any that are empowered, that's 31.25 damage. For any that are maximized, it's 36. For a maximized, empowered one? about 46.25.

Ok, this wizard has 14 slots per day that can cast the max/empower.
Another 14 slots for the max one.
8 slots for the empower one.
16 slots for the regular one.

With arcane thesis, the numbers change, but let's go with these.
Weight the damage:
Explosive Runes: 1.05 average damage after save
Empower: 1.5625 average
Max: 1.8 average
Emp/Max: 2.3125 average.

A daily loadout will create enough runes to, even with a save, do an average of: 16.8 + 12.5 + 25.2 + 32.375, or 86.875 damage.

Average HP for monk, let's assume 50 con, and 1000d8
dice average: 4500.
stat average: 20000
HP average: 24,500

Number of days to get 28,000 worth of runes, through a save?
323.

Number of runes? 16,796.

WBL used? The cost of a book.

[Mystic Muse]

Sadly, explosive runes are an SR: yes spell, so they wouldn't be effective against a Monk of this level.

Will be unable to respond for a few hours. Be back later.

[The Glyphstone]

I am curious though, every legit monk strategy I have seen looks like it could be easily replicated by a level 1000 commoner. That seems like a monk lose by default.

In fact, the Monk's SR is the only thing that's really kept him alive at this point. Without that, the Wizard could have just spammed 20 save-or-dies. A 1000-level commoner could replicate the Infinite Exceptional Deflection and Evasion protections, but couldn't match an effective SR on 20th level WBL.

Monks are very good at their one shtick - staying alive - better than any other non-full caster. They're low-tier because 'not dying' doesn't contribute to winning fights.

[Tanuki Tales]

Sorry, just want to chime in real quick;

Am I the only one who finds it hilarious and ridiculous that it has been suggested you can use Escape Artist to get through a Wall of Force but you can't do it through a sheet of ice?

You honestly expect me to believe that a wall of pure force that I've seen people argue could slice planets in half is more easier to metaphysically slip through than several feet of thick, mundane (or even magical) ice?

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Hey, it's RAW. What you gonna do? Use common sense in a D&D discussion?

[Hirax]

Sorry, just want to chime in real quick;

Am I the only one who finds it hilarious and ridiculous that it has been suggested you can use Escape Artist to get through a Wall of Force but you can't do it through a sheet of ice?

You honestly expect me to believe that a wall of pure force that I've seen people argue could slice planets in half is more easier to metaphysically slip through than several feet of thick, mundane ice?

150 feet. And yes, I do. You're finding a hole in something paper thin, versus finding a navigable hole through something 150 feet thick. Note the bolded word. Quite a difference. And as pointed out previously, it takes you ten rounds to do so, and is written with the assumption that you can move around and hunt for it. It isn't written with the assumption that you're encased in ice.

[gooddragon1]

Yeah, PAO doesn't work that way. "Myself, but with god stats" is not a creature, so you can't transform into it.

Actually, given that it is a criterion based polymorph that can allow exceeding of the normal limits of polymorph it can.

Shrew->Manticore

The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower)

7 1 week Shrew to manticore
This allows exceeding HD caps (though funnily enough HP stays the same).

HD scaling allows for increased ability scores.
Your HD of yourself with a future incarnation of you could be some amount greater than your current amount. Some amount could really be any amount.

EDIT: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216548

[Tanuki Tales]

150 feet. And yes, I do. You're finding a hole in something paper thin, versus finding a navigable hole through something 150 feet thick. Note the bolded word. Quite a difference. And as pointed out previously, it takes you ten rounds to do so, and is written with the assumption that you can move around and hunt for it. It isn't written with the assumption that you're encased in ice.

A Wall of Force has a hole but ice doesn't?

Uh huh.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

A Wall of Force has a hole but ice doesn't?

Uh huh.
You're using common sense. It's not applicable.

[Hirax]

A Wall of Force has a hole but ice doesn't?

Uh huh.

Not a navigable 150 foot hole. Further, if they wanted you using escape artist to basically mimic earth glide, they'd have put a check in there with a DC for it. But they didn't. That's very obviously not what it's for.

[Tanuki Tales]

You're using common sense.

Not really, I'm using the opposite.

Because common sense dictates you can't worm your way through a wall of solid force energy.

[Morph Bark]

Not a navigable 150 foot hole.

Depends on how large the hole needs to be. :smallwink:

[gooddragon1]

You're using common sense. It's not applicable.

A wall of force is actually non-constant. Not consistently non-constant enough for most people to exploit, but people with enough ranks in escape artist can.

[The Glyphstone]

Actually, given that it is a criterion based polymorph that can allow exceeding of the normal limits of polymorph it can.

Shrew->Manticore


This allows exceeding HD caps (though funnily enough HP stays the same).

HD scaling allows for increased ability scores.
Your HD of yourself with a future incarnation of you could be some amount greater than your current amount. Some amount could really be any amount.

A shrew is an existing creature. So is a manticore. Neither is a unique being. Presumably, you can find an advanced shrew or an advanced manticore somewhere in the multiverse, with those stats.

You cannot find a future incarnation of yourself, unless you employ time travel magic to go to the future where said future incarnation of yourself actually exists. Otherwise, just scribble down a bad sketch (untrained Craft: Art check) of a monster you invented on the spot with all of its stats=lol, and PaO into that.

[Hirax]

Depends on how large the hole needs to be. :smallwink:

2 inches or greater (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#escapeArtist)

[Arundel]

In fact, the Monk's SR is the only thing that's really kept him alive at this point. Without that, the Wizard could have just spammed 20 save-or-dies. A 1000-level commoner could replicate the Infinite Exceptional Deflection and Evasion protections, but couldn't match an effective SR on 20th level WBL.

Monks are very good at their one shtick - staying alive - better than any other non-full caster. They're low-tier because 'not dying' doesn't contribute to winning fights.

There are certainly feats for spell resistance, and as pointed out prior our level 1k antagonist has a metric buttload of feats. Will he have as much SR as the monk? Unlikely. Enough to still make it irrelevantly high? Maybe?

[gooddragon1]

A shrew is an existing creature. So is a manticore. Neither is a unique being. Presumably, you can find an advanced shrew or an advanced manticore somewhere in the multiverse, with those stats.

You cannot find a future incarnation of yourself, unless you employ time travel magic to go to the future where said future incarnation of yourself actually exists. Otherwise, just scribble down a bad sketch (untrained Craft: Art check) of a monster you invented on the spot with all of its stats=lol, and PaO into that.

I have the flaw: artistically disinclined. I can't make craft: Art checks untrained :(.

Pebble to Human (Objects have no HD :P)

[Dalek-K]

I really see this thread as

"A monk and a wizard walk into a bar...."

I have to side with the monk however the fact that the lvl 20 wizard has a chance against a pc/npc/creature/warfordged monk of level 1000 says they are pretty badass.

How would a Druid or Cleric stack up?

EDIT: I now want to make a Warforged Monk

[The Glyphstone]

I really see this thread as

"A monk and a wizard walk into a bar...."

I have to side with the monk however the fact that the lvl 20 wizard has a chance against a pc/npc/creature/warfordged monk of level 1000 says they are pretty badass.

How would a Druid or Cleric stack up?

Worse, because they don't have the same ranged win buttons or variety of defenses. Sheer defensive stats would render the Druid or Cleric unable to meaningfully injure the monk, while the druid's best tricks involve getting into melee (bad choice here), and the Clerics' best trick (Alignment Word spells) are nullified by the obscene HD differential.

[Heliomance]

The monk's natural Speed, AC bonus, and SR actually have come in handy.

Also its class skills.

[AmberVael]

Just for giggles, I want to point out that a level 1000 monk has a whopping total of 534 feats.

Here's the breakdown-

7 basic feats, for levels 1-20.
4 feats for being a non-epic monk (three feats from their list, and I'm counting improved unarmed strike just 'cause)
327 epic feats for levels 21-1000.
196 epic feats for epic monk levels (limited to the epic monk list).

The feats. They has all of them.

I think it is fairly clear that the monk would be an absolute defensive nightmare that the wizard would be hard pressed to affect... but honestly, I remain unsure as to how a sufficiently paranoid wizard could be killed by the monk, unless the monk just blows a lot of gold on getting scrolls to temporarily become a wizard. As far as I can tell, the monk can still only kill stuff through hitting them (though by now he might be able to throw something hard enough to kill the wizard, but that's an even worse option really given how many ranged attack counters there are).

[Basket Burner]

Monks are very good at their one shtick - staying alive - better than any other non-full caster. They're low-tier because 'not dying' doesn't contribute to winning fights.

Um, no.

Just about any non caster has a better AC, and if he wants a higher touch AC as well. Any of them with 2 Paladin levels, 3 Hexblade levels, or Steadfast Determination + Rage will have the same or likely better saves.

Not dying is something that Monks are fairly bad at. Now running away, they're decent at that.


I really see this thread as

"A monk and a wizard walk into a bar...."

The Wizard sees it coming and is prepared for it.

The Monk misses.

[Morph Bark]

2 inches or greater (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#escapeArtist)

Umno.

You were talking about holes in a wall of force. Don't suddenly change what you're talking about.

[Hirax]

Umno.

You were talking about holes in a wall of force. Don't suddenly change what you're talking about.

Given the context it's entirely reasonable that I might have assumed you were asking about the ice. I don't see what difference it makes either way.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

In fact, the Monk's SR is the only thing that's really kept him alive at this point. Without that, the Wizard could have just spammed 20 save-or-dies. A 1000-level commoner could replicate the Infinite Exceptional Deflection and Evasion protections, but couldn't match an effective SR on 20th level WBL.

Indeed. In fact, were this a beguiler 20 with his ability to ignore SR instead of a wizard 20, the monk would fall relatively easily ("relatively" given the level and power difference, at least). Sneaking up on the monk via superior invisibility to prevent his Spot and Listen of +YES from finding him and disjoining or dispelling buffs and items to remove immunities would open the door to a lot of tactics, from the simple SoD-spamming to more cheesy options.

Minor tangent:One option that gets a lot of style points in my book would be an evil beguiler picking up Arcane Preparation, Arcane Thesis, and a bunch of metamagic feats to be able to cast a maximized empowered twinned invisible repeat Lahm's finger darts for 80+10d4 Dex damage over 2 rounds out of a 9th level slot (obtaining a psychic reformation to respec his feats for the battle if necessary); using a greater metamagic rod of quicken, he could remove the monk's buffs and items in round 1, cast two of those bad boys on round 2 for an average of 210 Dex damage, use a wand of restoration and cast another one of those on round 3 for a total of 315 Dex damage, and on round 4 even a monk with max Dex (280ish from base 18 + 2-6 race + 5 inherent + 250 level-up) would be paralyzed and subject to CDGing from the beguiler or a dominated buddy...and if Repeat Spell is swapped with Delay Spell and the appropriate scrolls/runestaffs are purchased, the beguiler could use time stop for greater teleport/disjunction + finger darts/finger darts + restoration/finger darts + finger darts/restoration + finger darts/summon monster to 'port in, paralyze the monk before the monk even knew he was there, and get a minion to CDG him. The beguiler wiggles his fingers and the monk is helpless to resist: caster vs. monk fights in a nutshell. :smallbiggrin:

But alas, the mighty wizard has no such tricks. Unless he dominates a beguiler 20 or factotum 11 to help bust through SR, he's pretty much SOL on that front.

[DeAnno]

I think the following encounter parameters are reasonable:
- They are both PCs.
- The Monk goes first due to superior Initiative.
- They start standing 1200 ft away from one another on an open, featureless, grassy plain with clear weather. This is the only plane in existence.
- They both have had 8 hours to prepare.
- The wizard may not use summoning or calling spells, but he may use minions acquired through other methods not otherwise barred by these parameters.
- Neither may use Leadership or Diplomacy.
- "Winning" is defined as "killing the other guy". Death from old age does not count.

Well, a monk has a speed of 3360 ft at this point, and a Spot check of roughly +1000. So in the first round, he easily pinpoints the Wizard despite the distance, and assuming there are no obstacles in his way, could easily charge in and kill the wizard through whatever buffs the wizard might have.

It seems the game has become: can the Wizard pile up enough junk in the Monk's way over a period of 8 hours that he can prevent his instant death in the first round, and still be able to effectively strike at the monk in the next round?

Edit: Expanding on this idea, it probably makes sense for the Wizard to assemble a sort of maze of horrors he can hide in and mess with the monk using. The monk has to safely navigate through the maze, defeat the wizard's minions, and avoid ever getting surprised. We've officially reached Superman vs. Lex Luthor.

[gooddragon1]

Uh, I thought I already pointed out that PaO makes anyone who can cast it an automatic winner in melee fights. (Though this assumes the wizard manages to hit the monk with a ranged thrown projectile of some sort otherwise the monk can use a dispelling or disjoining item)

EDIT: If it were just a melee fight then the wizard would win. Of course there's always chain gating as mentioned earlier. Or pun-pun via shapechange with ability labeled: I win.

[The Glyphstone]

Uh, I thought I already pointed out that PaO makes anyone who can cast it an automatic winner in melee fights. (Though this assumes the wizard manages to hit the monk with a ranged thrown projectile of some sort otherwise the monk can use a dispelling or disjoining item)

Except, as was pointed out subsequently, you were wrong in your interpretation of PaO. PaO cannot transform you into imaginary creatures (you need to make them non-imaginary first with Origin of Species), so 'myself but with godstats' is not a valid end result of PaO.

[Kurald Galain]

We really need a subforum for monk threads :smallbiggrin:

[sreservoir]

Actually candycorn it's much simpler than that. It's 1 casting of polymorph any object.

Casting 1: polymorph self into self with str, dex, con, int = lol

Criterion:
Same Kingdom (Yes): +5
Same Class (Yes): +2
Sime Size (Yes): +2
Related (Possibly): +2
Same or Lower Intelligence (No): +0
Result: +11
11>9
Duration=Permanent

Have this done far in advance and win initiative with initiative role of d20+lol.
Throw spell book at monk.
Make attack roll of 1d20+10 BAB+lol-4 (nonproficiency)
Damage equal to 1dspellbook + lol

With the above in mind, there is no way for a monk of any level to beat a wizard of at least 15th level who has learned polymorph any object (and with con of lol even if they won initiative somehow)

NOTE: If you can cast PaO through a scroll at a lower level then that works too.

polymorph spells do not work that way.

[Dictum Mortuum]

The Monk doesn't attempt to dispel or erase it. He looks at it and sees writing and then thinks to himself, "I'm going to move over here to a safe distance and then read it, just in case it's a bomb, which I know that it could be due to my high Knowledge(arcana) score."

The wizard on the other hand, will. Oh and he will purposely lower his caster level so that he will auto-fail his dispel checks. Move action (or free?) to drop the bag near the monk, standard to go boom.

The correct response would be of course that this is foiled by SR.


Like what? I actually want to know.

I don't have anything that suits the challenge right now. I need to ponder upon this more.


Sure he can. He just uses Quick Draw and ranged attacks instead. It's still likely to one-shot the Wizard.

Unfortunately, if he initiated a charge maneuver, he can use quick draw to get a ranged weapon, but he can't attack, since charge is a full-round action.



After the first casting of Love's Pain, the Monk can use one of his Scrolls of Antimagic Field. No deity will agree to help fight against the Monk, because he already will have used his Epic Diplomacy with them.

And this is what it boils down to. In order to win, the monk has to use the wizard's tricks.

Someone also has to say it: wizard -> pun pun

[Flickerdart]

As far as I can see, you cannot gain SR from feats unless you are of the Dragon type and have Dragon HD. So that is something the Monk can do that a Commoner cannot.

[PirateMonk]

The wizard may not use summoning or calling spells

Not even on the Monk?

[Lord Ruby34]

Well, a commoner of the Monk's ECL could just have started as a drow or any other race with SR and has a spell resistance of a whole 2 lower.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Well, a commoner of the Monk's ECL could just have started as a drow or any other race with SR and has a spell resistance of a whole 2 lower.
But he doesn't have to be a Commoner for that. >.>

[NeoSeraphi]

Let's assume Explosive Runes on the book.
But even so, let's assume 95% of these are ineffective.
6d6 averages 21 damage. For any that are empowered, that's 31.25 damage. For any that are maximized, it's 36. For a maximized, empowered one? about 46.25.

Ok, this wizard has 14 slots per day that can cast the max/empower.
Another 14 slots for the max one.
8 slots for the empower one.
16 slots for the regular one.

With arcane thesis, the numbers change, but let's go with these.
Weight the damage:
Explosive Runes: 1.05 average damage after save
Empower: 1.5625 average
Max: 1.8 average
Emp/Max: 2.3125 average.

A daily loadout will create enough runes to, even with a save, do an average of: 16.8 + 12.5 + 25.2 + 32.375, or 86.875 damage.

Average HP for monk, let's assume 50 con, and 1000d8
dice average: 4500.
stat average: 20000
HP average: 24,500

Number of days to get 28,000 worth of runes, through a save?
323.

Number of runes? 16,796.

WBL used? The cost of a book.

Over the last two pages this has been debunked by the fact that explosive runes allows SR. But just in case anyone else tries to point out that a wizard could somehow damage the monk without needing to make a touch attack, ignoring SR and saves, let me just point out that there's a feat that gives you Fast Healing 3. Given the defensive nature of the monk, and the sheer amount of epic feats at his disposal, I'm sure he could make room for, say, 10 copies of that, giving him Fast Healing 30. Damage is not the way to kill this man.

Edit:

As for the idea that the monk could die of old age, I suppose I shouldn't mention that the monk has access to the epic transform seed (which has a duration of permanent) and could easily make an epic polymorph that turns him into a dragon?

Just checked the Transform seed on the SRD and it's actually not clear about whether the creature adopts the new form's type.

[Morph Bark]

Unfortunately, if he initiated a charge maneuver, he can use quick draw to get a ranged weapon, but he can't attack, since charge is a full-round action.

Belt of battle? AFAIK, swift actions aren't used up when using a full-round action (primarily because they did not exist yet in the beginning).


Not even on the Monk?

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Care explain?

[NeoSeraphi]

Belt of battle? AFAIK, swift actions aren't used up when using a full-round action (primarily because they did not exist yet in the beginning).


Why does he need to charge, again? One hit will kill the wizard, and if he's starting from 1200 feet away, he can just walk over there. It would take him one second to move that speed, given his actual movement speed for 3 seconds.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Care explain?

Outsider type.

Anyway, wizard just uses Forcecage, uses Displacement, Mirror Image, and a bunch of Programmed Images, then dismisses the Forcecage and uses Quickened True Strike and Orb of Fire, then when he runs out of spell slots, Quickened Still True Strike and Empowered Orb of Fire, then when he runs out of those spell slots, Quickened Still Silent True Strike and Maximized Orb of Fire, then when out of THOSE slots, just regular True Strike and Maximized Empowered Orb of Fire.

[AmberVael]

Outsider type.

Anyway, wizard just uses Forcecage, uses Displacement, Mirror Image, and a bunch of Programmed Images, then dismisses the Forcecage and uses Quickened True Strike and Orb of Fire, then when he runs out of spell slots, Quickened Still True Strike and Empowered Orb of Fire, then when he runs out of those spell slots, Quickened Still Silent True Strike and Maximized Orb of Fire, then when out of THOSE slots, just regular True Strike and Maximized Empowered Orb of Fire.

No orb spells will touch the monk. Infinite Deflection + Exceptional Deflection.

Even if they did somehow manage to bypass that and hit, the monk likely WILL have somewhere around fifty iterations of Energy Resistance given that he has 196 epic feats from his monk levels which can only be spent on a very limited number of epic feats, which will easily give him resistance 100 to every energy.

Assuming that he spent his feats on something else, one of those "something else" is Fast Healing. 50 iterations on THAT will give him fast healing 150, making such slow damage a futile effort.

Also notice that he has enough feats and enough reason to have both energy resistance and fast healing, barely using up half of his monk only bonus epic feats. He'd still have over 400 feats to spend.

[PirateMonk]

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Care explain?

I don't have any books with me right now, but according to the Internet, a Zodar has a 1/year supernatural wish, wish has no cap on the value of a magic item you create with it, and lilitus can auto-succeed on UMD checks as an extraordinary ability. So, move to another plane (if you can survive long enough to do so and doing so doesn't count as forfeiting) shapechange into a Zodar, wish for a scroll of gate with arbitrarily high caster level, become a Lilitu, call in the monk, and order him to lower spell resistance and, if possible, fail all saves against you. He may then be Mind Raped or coup de graced at your leisure. If you can't voluntarily fail saves (I couldn't find anything on this quickly), it will take a little longer, but you have as much time as you need to wait for a natural 1.

Am I missing anything?

[Aharon]

Ok. Everyone is touting the monk's feats, tactics, optimization abilities, and the like. You're forgetting one thing that a wizard can choose to have...

...enough Solars to occupy every square within a mile and a half of him. All fanatically loyal, having been gained via simulacrum.

...Ice assassin copies of every deity in existence.

What those arguing for the monk fail to realize is that there. is. almost. no. way. to. beat. a. fully. optimized. wizard.

Carrying optimization to its threshold means that there is nowhere to move on the planet, because it's filled with simulacrums. At that point, how many SR: No saves must a monk roll to fail one?

Team caster can throw ten thousand times that number of spells. In a round.

Just chiming in right now, hope my point hasn't been made yet: This is leading nowhere, because any character can do that by level 7 by selling all his WBL and buying a candle of invocation. Let's try and not use broken spells in this contest. I propose we use the guy described in this post as a baseline (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3763.msg119987#msg119987). He uses the stronger spells, but nothing infinite. We should probably also keep out CoP, as it requires greater knowledge of the future than the DM himself has :smalltongue:

[lyko555]

may be wrong but doesn't true strike just give you a +20 to hit?

[mucco]

I'm sorry, but... wouldn't it be enough for a wizard 20 to spam no-SR spells? Thinking of Earthquake or Sepia Snake Sigil, in the SRD. That would be exploiting the mechanic of natural 1 on saving throws... it's going to happen eventually, and then the wizard wins.

I mean, without resorting to extra cheese. Because Gate = lolwin, no matter the monk level.

[Curious]

may be wrong but doesn't true strike just give you a +20 to hit?

I believe he's using it to give himself an arbitrarily high to-hit score in order to match the monks arbitrarily high AC score.

[Big Fau]

Foresight has a duration of 10 min/level. It's not that useful when the monk has the advantage of surprise. And as for contingency, I was under the impression that evocation was the number one choice for specialist wizards to ban? Or are we not being realistic here?


Enchantment is #1, Evocation is #2. But the Wizard doesn't need to specialize (it's helpful in practice, but in thought experiments like this you don't need it).

Foresight's duration isn't a problem. It's been proven that 10min/level at CL20 means he just needs 2 Pearls of Power and a few CL boosts to maintain it for the full 8 hour workday. BTW, that's 200 minutes/casting, possibly more depending on how high he can pump his CL, which translates into 3 hours worth of Foresight.



Regardless, anyone would have trouble with a level 1000 character just due to sheer stats. A properly prepared Wizard can indeed kill him, but it's just so tedious.

Besides, who the hell takes Monk to 1000?

[Aharon]

Assuming for the moment that the board agrees on using PhaedrusXY's wizard as the opponent, let's now talk about the limitations we put on the monk.

I propose
- no diplomancy cheese
- no leadership cheese

I'm uncertain about gaining spellcasting cheese (via shapechange, for example).
On the one hand, the wizard uses shapechange, on the other hand, we want to show the monks strengths. If he uses shapechange, he ought to win, hands down.

Do we want to allow a monk with powers that come from his race? I.e. Dragonwrought for Dragon-exclusive feats etc.?

[Valameer]

Besides, who the hell takes Monk to 1000?

These guys. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLO1YIWQuXE)

[lyko555]

I believe he's using it to give himself an arbitrarily high to-hit score in order to match the monks arbitrarily high AC score.

yeah but +20 isn't arbitrarily high compared to the monks ac of no

[Curious]

yeah but +20 isn't arbitrarily high compared to the monks ac of no

Sorry, meant to say I think he was using it multiple times. I may have misunderstood it though.

[Heliomance]

Well, a monk has a speed of 3360 ft at this point, and a Spot check of roughly +1000.
His spot check's not that high; spot's not on the Monk skill list.

I don't have any books with me right now, but according to the Internet, a Zodar has a 1/year supernatural wish, wish has no cap on the value of a magic item you create with it, and lilitus can auto-succeed on UMD checks as an extraordinary ability. So, move to another plane (if you can survive long enough to do so and doing so doesn't count as forfeiting) shapechange into a Zodar, wish for a scroll of gate with arbitrarily high caster level, become a Lilitu, call in the monk, and order him to lower spell resistance and, if possible, fail all saves against you. He may then be Mind Raped or coup de graced at your leisure. If you can't voluntarily fail saves (I couldn't find anything on this quickly), it will take a little longer, but you have as much time as you need to wait for a natural 1.

Am I missing anything?

Yes. Specific creatures are under no compulsion to answer a Gate or to obey you if they come through.

[Dictum Mortuum]

Sorry, meant to say I think he was using it multiple times. I may have misunderstood it though.

Insight bonuses don't stack.

[Curious]

Insight bonuses don't stack.

Then I have no idea what he was trying to do. :smallconfused:

[Big Fau]

These guys. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLO1YIWQuXE)

Those aren't Monks, those are Deities.

[DeAnno]

Then I have no idea what he was trying to do. :smallconfused:

To be fair, a Wizard could Limited Wish for Surge of Fortune and hit with an automatic natural 20. I'm not sure what hitting the monk's AC is going to accomplish exactly though.

[Elric VIII]

Can the Wizard PAO into a version of the Monk?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Can the Wizard PAO into a version of the Monk?

It's a unique creature. It's like trying to PaO into a god.

[PirateMonk]

His spot check's not that high; spot's not on the Monk skill list.


Yes. Specific creatures are under no compulsion to answer a Gate or to obey you if they come through.

I'm not so sure:


The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has an XP cost (see below).

If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures. You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level. A single creature with more HD than twice your caster level can’t be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.

This heavily implies that specific creatures can be controlled, as long as they aren't deities and don't have Organization: Unique.

[NeoSeraphi]

Then I have no idea what he was trying to do. :smallconfused:

I think he assumed that the monk's touch AC was lower than 30 at level 1000. (which is not true, as he gains both Dex and Wis to that AC, as well as an untyped bonus which should be around the realms of "No")

Going on the assumption that the monk will win initiative, the monk wins. One hit, the wizard is down. The monk has a ridiculous to-hit score and deals well over 200 damage per strike. Even if the wizard has stoneskin up, he's going to drop.

Now, if the wizard has a Persisted greater mirror image spell up, then it gets a little more complicated. But the monk would probably be wearing Goggles of True Seeing (or whatever they're called) so no illusions for him. Or miss chance from displacement.

Even if the wizard is flying, the monk jumps. The wizard will die.

[Qwertystop]

What if both the Monk and the Wizard were the same level? Epic Wizards don't scale very much in Epic levels (all they get are bonus feats, which will run out, and their familiars get SR and some 8th-or-lower level spells). When will the Monk's scaling outstrip the Wizard's scaling?

[AmberVael]

Epic wizard wins, even without epic spellcasting. Improved Metamagic + Improved Spell Capacity + Multispell. Wizard casting hundreds of spells per round is terrifying (also at that point they'd have a way easier time overcoming SR).

[Seerow]

Those aren't Monks, those are Deities.

At level 1000 there's not a lot of difference.


I can't think of any god ever being statted up even as high as level 100.

[Little Brother]

Couple things: 1: The wizard cannot run out of spells. EVER.
2: Already said, but Ice Assassin Mystra, or whatever she's called
3: Are PRCs disallowed? If not, he's a Necropolitan Wizard 19/Tainted Scholar 1 with taint=twice the number of manz in the Imperial Guard, and the monk dies. Any no-save.
4: Solid Fog, anyone? Maybe with a Mouth of Madness or whatever it's called?
5: Create a large, floating platform, summon a whale on it, and dismiss/destroy the platform.
6: That black sand stuff/red snow stuff for Con damage and negative energy(is is it levels?), Spectral Hand Shivering Touch repeatedly while the monk is stuck and you have true seeing on. Ooh, also stack all of those Solid Fogs that also deal damage.
7: Nanobots to beat his SR.
8: Turn into an Emerald Legionnaire and go toe-to-toe with him, 'cuz he can't hurt you and you hit him on a twenty, and you can still cast.

Am I forgetting anything?

[Stallion]

So why not just throw a Neutronium Golem and call it game? Just seems an awful lot like the Immortals Handbook at this point.

[Mystic Muse]

At level 1000 there's not a lot of difference.


I can't think of any god ever being statted up even as high as level 100.

And the gods that were statted up (At least in the version of deities and Demigods I have) Suuuuuuck.

[tyckspoon]

Going on the assumption that the monk will win initiative, the monk wins. One hit, the wizard is down. The monk has a ridiculous to-hit score and deals well over 200 damage per strike. Even if the wizard has stoneskin up, he's going to drop.


If you're not insisting on Core only, Foresight->Celerity means the Wizard simply cannot lose initiative against anybody who can't use a similar trick. Extending it into Timestop then gives him free time to do anything he thinks necessary to prepare for the fight on the spot.


When will the Monk's scaling outstrip the Wizard's scaling?

:smallconfused: Never. Epic spellcaster feats are better than anybody else's; first, you open up Epic Spells, which is just 'nevermind, you lose' for the Monk. Then you get Multispell and Automatic Quicken, and you can never have too many copies of Improved Spell Capacity. The Monk's main advantage here is really that a level 20-restricted Wizard doesn't have a very efficient way to deal damage to him; that goes away when you can dump 30 Rapid Enhanced Maximized Hails of Stone on him *as your Swift action*. (Hail of Stone: AoE, No Save, No SR; downside is 1 round casting time and puny 5d4 damage cap. Enhance makes that 15d4, Rapid cuts it down to 1 standard so it can be Auto-Quickened, Maximize makes it 60 'yes, you WILL take damage' HP per cast.)

[DeAnno]

Couple things: 1: The wizard cannot run out of spells. EVER.
2: Already said, but Ice Assassin Mystra, or whatever she's called
3: Are PRCs disallowed? If not, he's a Necropolitan Wizard 19/Tainted Scholar 1 with taint=twice the number of manz in the Imperial Guard, and the monk dies. Any no-save.
4: Solid Fog, anyone? Maybe with a Mouth of Madness or whatever it's called?
5: Create a large, floating platform, summon a whale on it, and dismiss/destroy the platform.
6: That black sand stuff/red snow stuff for Con damage and negative energy(is is it levels?), Spectral Hand Shivering Touch repeatedly while the monk is stuck and you have true seeing on. Ooh, also stack all of those Solid Fogs that also deal damage.
7: Nanobots to beat his SR.
8: Turn into an Emerald Legionnaire and go toe-to-toe with him, 'cuz he can't hurt you and you hit him on a twenty, and you can still cast.

Am I forgetting anything?

If PRCs are on the table, the Wizard stands no chance. Solid Fog is a joke, the Monk will have Freedom of movement.

[NeoSeraphi]

Couple things: 1: The wizard cannot run out of spells. EVER.

I disagree. It's called removing his spellbook from the equation. Or if you want to be really thorough, the monk could stash an artifact on himself and then bait the wizard into using disjunction (which has been suggested already). The wizard unmakes the artifact and loses all spellcasting, (unless he makes a DC 25 Will save. Assuming Wisdom dumped, and with a 32 point buy, that's likely, he has to roll a 13 without any save-boosters)

And even if you say that there's still a chance that the wizard saves and the whole plan was wasted, he would have to save once per artifact. Artifacts are not part of WBL, and with how long the monk has been epic, he probably has at least twenty. That's twenty separate saving throws, if the wizard manages to unmake all of them, ten separate if he only unmakes half. And he has a less than 50% chance of making the save each time.



2: Already said, but Ice Assassin Mystra, or whatever she's called


No one ever cited a spell or source for this, so I can't refute it without reading the spell description.



3: Are PRCs disallowed? If not, he's a Necropolitan Wizard 19/Tainted Scholar 1 with taint=twice the number of manz in the Imperial Guard, and the monk dies. Any no-save.


The title clearly states Wizard 20.



4: Solid Fog, anyone? Maybe with a Mouth of Madness or whatever it's called?


Wand of gust of wind. Not even 4000 gp.



5: Create a large, floating platform, summon a whale on it, and dismiss/destroy the platform.


The monk has over 1000 hit points. Assuming the monk takes crushing damage, he can simply Abundant Step away from it without needing to crawl away. Still, with the size of his Strength score, he probably can lift it on his own.



6: That black sand stuff/red snow stuff for Con damage and negative energy(is is it levels?), Spectral Hand Shivering Touch repeatedly while the monk is stuck and you have true seeing on. Ooh, also stack all of those Solid Fogs that also deal damage.


Monks can move through the ethereal plane, they don't get 'stuck'. And you're forgetting the part where we're all assuming the monk won initiative.



7: Nanobots to beat his SR.


What?



8: Turn into an Emerald Legionnaire and go toe-to-toe with him, 'cuz he can't hurt you and you hit him on a twenty, and you can still cast.


I've never heard of this creature so I don't know what ability makes you immune to his damage if you shapechange into it.
Am I forgetting anything?[/QUOTE]


If you're not insisting on Core only, Foresight->Celerity means the Wizard simply cannot lose initiative against anybody who can't use a similar trick. Extending it into Timestop then gives him free time to do anything he thinks necessary to prepare for the fight on the spot.


We don't have to be insisting on Core-only. Let's instead talk about how many tables actually allow celerity. Seriously.

Besides, a few pages ago, Morph suggested for simplicity of the discussion that we just assume the monk won initiative. Because he will. Give the wizard foresight if you want. Without celerity he won't be able to protect himself.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Locked for review.