a question concenring the Sorcerer, Warmage and beguiler

[Kol Korran]

ok, i suck at balance issues, so i'm trying to figure something out... pardon me for any glaring and obvious explenations i don't see

are the beguiler (super sneaky and charming guy) and warmage (super blaster) seem much better than sorcerers when compared, assuming the sorcerer tries to match their roles (taking spells mostly of their theme):
- they get the same number of spells
- more hp
- use of armor
- more spells known, and automatically them all. advanced learning advanced even that a bit more.
- beguiler gets more skills, and a few extra abilities, while warmage also gets an edge, which is nice but not much.

they just seem better at this, considerably. some might say that a sorcerer can be more varied, taking spells of different themes, but i thought that was the wizard's shtick... i thought most sorcerers DID specialize- so few spells known after all.

can someone enlighten me or throw their comments?
i'm mostly interested in:
- comparing the sorcerer to the othertwo both in general, and in their own specific respective roles.
- game experiences from whomever player the two specialized roles- do players enjoy such focused classes?
- any breaking or problematic game issues with any of these two classes?

thanks a bunch,
Kol.

(search word: Tomer)

[Zaq]

In the case of the Warmage, the Sorcerer can do what the Warmage does by using only a fraction of their spells known. You don't need to have ten spells that basically do the same thing. You can do blasting just fine with only two or three spells, then still have enough space left over for all kinds of delightful Sorcerer utility, including spells that make you better at blasting, if you so desire (like Arcane Fusion or Wings of Flurry).

The Beguiler's more of an edge case. Again, you don't need ALL of the tricks in their arsenal, and the things the Sorcerer gets that the Beguiler doesn't (even with just a few spells dedicated to that purpose) are amazing. Teleport, for instance, can be game-breakingly powerful (or at least campaign-definingly powerful), and Beguilers just plain don't get it. Sure, they can try to get some scrolls and UMD it, but they can't be the party bus the way a Sorcerer can. The Sorcerer only has to spend a single spell known on Teleport to get this amazing utility that a Beguiler can't match. Teleport's only one example out of many, of course. It's less obvious with Beguilers than with Warmages, but that's because Beguilers are a lot stronger than Warmages are.

[NeoSeraphi]

To begin with, the reason is: They came afterwards.

WotC originally thought that 18 more spells per day and spontaneous casting made the sorcerer equally balanced with the wizard. Then they gave the wizard (they assumed) 43+Int spells known, plus all cantrips, while they gave the sorcerer 34 spells known.

Then they threw in the wizard's ability to copy spells, and weakened it by giving them the prerequisite of having a spellbook.

After a while of playtesting in the 3.5 community, it was apparent to everyone that DMs weren't going to take away spellbooks, and wizards weren't just limited to those 43 spells known. Meanwhile, a sorcerer was stuck picking between fireball, haste, lightning bolt, stinking cloud, and slow at level 6, while the wizard had all of those spells bought by level 5.

To make up for this, WotC released the focus sorcerer classes (beguiler, warmage and dread necromancer). These classes got the easy button spontaneous spellcasting, as well as the spells known of a cleric, but from a much more limited spell list. Basically, it was their way of saying "Okay, if you want to do a bit of everything, play a wizard. If you want to focus on undead armies, tricking people, or blasting, here! We made it cookie-cutter easy for you!"

Now, are any of these classes strictly better than a sorcerer? Ask most people on the site, and they'll probably say "No" and point to JaronK's tier list as an example.

But "strictly better" has a strange meaning when it comes to spellcasters. On this forum, people tend to value a spellcaster's worth as "can it handle anything and everything?" Technically, people say the sorcerer is better at this, though I would disagree, just because I've spent way too much time pouring over books at every new spell level trying to decide exactly which spell I wanted to choose for my sorcerer, from all the staples. While it's true that a sorcerer can have a scroll of any wizard spell, that's adding WBL to the equation and that argument won't get anywhere because it's all theoretical.

Meanwhile, if you just want to blast, or just want to dominate or just want an undead army, yes, the free spells known and unique class features make those three classes far superior to the sorcerer. (It's debatable with the warmage, but that depends very much on whether the sorcerer has access to arcane fusion, arcane spellsurge or greater arcane fusion. If the answer is no, the warmage's extra damage can arguably be optimized to outpace the sorcerer at lower levels and stay close to it at higher levels.

[Grendus]

In terms of which is strictly better, Sorcerer trumps Beguiler trumps Warmage. Sorcerer has the widest variety of spells and once you pare it down to the best of each level they're by far the best (it is, however, very easy to build them wrong, so they aren't always better). Beguiler covers the skillmonkey, trapmonkey, and illusionist schtick very well. The beguiler's only issue is their lack of damaging spells, but that's part of their charm. Warmage, unfortunately, has a very poorly chosen spell list. Lots of redundant spells, and they didn't even choose some of the best ones.

NeoSeraphi has it pegged though, if you don't want to jump through optimization hoops the focused casters are better. They get you the entire theme you want without wasting a lot of time digging through sourcebooks and agonizing over spell selection. They also serve as viable alternatives if the DM decides to ban T1-2 classes. Very nice.

[molten_dragon]

A sorcerer is better overall than a beguiler, which is in turn better overall than a warmage.

Mainly due to the fact that a sorcerer, though they don't know as many spells, has a much wider variety to choose from, and can pick up spells that are far more powerful as well.

A sorcerer is not as versatile as a wizard, but is more so than a beguiler or warmage.

However, a beguiler is going to be better than a sorcerer that focuses strictly on illusions and enchantments, due to more spells known and better class features.

Likewise, a warmage is going to be better than a sorcerer that focuses strictly on blasting, for the same reason.

You're kind of crippling the sorcerer when you make those kinds of comparisons though.

[Kol Korran]

thanks for the replies people! they were enlightening.

[BlackestOfMages]

as everyone's pointed out, the sorceror's versatility comes out on top here, by a long margin. Unlike the focused classes, they don;t need a specific niche in an encounter to be effective - good spell choices means they're effective all the time.

though, if you want something that works quickly without having to go splatbook diving, the preset classes function effectivley :smallsmile:

as to the warmage, it has some major crippling features:
1) It's a mage with no defencive spell access or escape spells. that means it's very easy for a foe to close with you and turn your low con. low armour, low HP backside into a Roast. the sorceror here has invisibility, flight and - when things go very south - teleport to get out of there. And that's before it transforms into a monster out of boredom...
2) Their spell-list isn;t actually all that good at blasting. your good at throwing dice at things, but theirs reallt only 1-2 spells per level that will see use, and most of the better damage spells are missing. this is because it's much more effective to do damage through save or die/aoe's than the warmage's mountain of damage dice (don't forget, each dice is only worth 3.5 hit points on average. kinda lowers the fear of 20d6 when it's average is 70)

now, if we mentioned a warmage 10/rainbow servant 10 - then it becomes different, as then you have a cleric with more blast spells and spontanious spell casting :smallamused:

[Grendus]

as everyone's pointed out, the sorceror's versatility comes out on top here, by a long margin. Unlike the focused classes, they don;t need a specific niche in an encounter to be effective - good spell choices means they're effective all the time.

though, if you want something that works quickly without having to go splatbook diving, the preset classes function effectivley :smallsmile:

as to the warmage, it has some major crippling features:
1) It's a mage with no defencive spell access or escape spells. that means it's very easy for a foe to close with you and turn your low con. low armour, low HP backside into a Roast. the sorceror here has invisibility, flight and - when things go very south - teleport to get out of there. And that's before it transforms into a monster out of boredom...
2) Their spell-list isn;t actually all that good at blasting. your good at throwing dice at things, but theirs reallt only 1-2 spells per level that will see use, and most of the better damage spells are missing. this is because it's much more effective to do damage through save or die/aoe's than the warmage's mountain of damage dice (don't forget, each dice is only worth 3.5 hit points on average. kinda lowers the fear of 20d6 when it's average is 70)

now, if we mentioned a warmage 10/rainbow servant 10 - then it becomes different, as then you have a cleric with more blast spells and spontanious spell casting :smallamused:

It is worth noting that the Eclectic Learning ACF goes a long way towards helping the warmage, if you're crazy enough to stay in the class that long. It allows you to learn any spell you want with your Advanced Learning, though you learn it at one spell level higher than normal. Still, if you pick up the right spells (Invisibility, Polymorph, etc), it's worth one spell level higher. It doesn't bring it up to the Sorcerer's level, or even the Beguiler, but between that and picking out the better Evocation spells the Warmage isn't a complete dud.