Wow, the Epic PRCS BLOW...

[deuxhero]

(spellcasting advacing ones excluded, even then, they aren't very hot beyond the casting)

I never really bothered looking at them (or the epic rules in general, though I knew most of the feats would be bad even as non-epic ones) but these blow. Your special abilities are almost all 1/day (when not usable even less) replicated by common spells (In the purest sense, they are just some SLAs!) or minor boosts that don't stack with bonuses you should have by level 10, let alone 21.

Oh God! Epic level PRCs are MONKS!


High Proselytizer has some cool flavor in the Proselytize ability, but awful crunch for an epic character.


The only one that seems usable is Cosmic Descryer as an Epic advancement for Malconvoker (Not much of a difference between CL 21 and CL >21 as far as I know, so half casting doesn't matter)

Did I miss anything abusable on them, or are they really just complete crap?


Some can be fixed into playable normal level PRCs easily (High Proselytizer needs no modifcations. Strip Guardian Paramount of it's limited uses+change True Res SP to Revify)


Also: love how a High Proselytizer needs Know: Nature to qualify, but doesn't have it as a skill.

[Eldariel]

Agent Retriever isn't bad and I kinda do like Unstoppable Juggernaut tho it should be the kinda stuff melee gets already pre-epic.

[Runestar]

With cosmic descryer, you can use cosmic connection to bump your caster level high enough to kill off any enemy with holy word. True, you probably die in the process, but hey, at this point, death is a 10 minute pit-stop at worst (the time it takes to cast true resurrection with ignore material components).

Otherwise yeah, the others do look kinda lackluster.

[Alleran]

Netherese Arcanist is decent (it's in Player's Guide to Faerun). And I do like the Cosmic Descryer. All you need are about five levels in it to pump up your Planar Binding HD limit, and Practised Spellcaster fixes the caster level issue.

[Yora]

Does Practiced Spellcasters work with Half-Caster PrCs?

[Eldariel]

Does Practiced Spellcasters work with Half-Caster PrCs?

If your caster level is under your HD, Practiced Spellcaster works. Has nothing to do with what kinds of class levels you have.

[Alleran]

Does Practiced Spellcasters work with Half-Caster PrCs?
I think so. The limiter for how much it can boost your CL is based on Hit Dice. It can't take you up to a higher CL than your HD, but it can take it up to your HD.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

[ericgrau]

Compare to the epic base classes and continued progression of non-epic PrCs into epic. Any epic PrC with much more than 2 bonus feats is a major upgrade.

Cosmic Descrier has an all day gate.
Epic Infiltrator, combined with feats, magic items, etc. has 1 more source of bonuses to skill stack up to the epic DCs required for silly skill tricks.
Guardian Paramount grants a significant number of rerolls not just for himself but for everyone, plus he gives away improved uncanny dodge.
Legendary Dreadnought can break virtually anything, cutting short cuts through dungeons. Also lets you shout "I'm unstoppable" as you do so.
A Perfect Wight with enough HP can get huge roll or caster level bonuses
Union Sentinel overwhelms you with its suck until it gets free forcecages. Then it still overwhelms you because you remember 1500 gp isn't significant anymore. Oh well, they can't all be stars.


<makes a note to self to play a dungeoncrasher => legendary dreadnaught next time I'm in an epic game>

[Big Fau]

True, you probably die in the process, but hey, at this point, death is a 10 minute pit-stop at worst (the time it takes to cast true resurrection with ignore material components).

Try 6 seconds with Revivify.

[Cieyrin]

Elven High Mage in Magic of Faerun cheapens Epic Spellcasting and gives you free epic spells as you research Mythals, basically... :smalltongue:

But yes, epic PrCs are pretty bad, with a few not so bad ones here and there...

[Jack_Simth]

Try 6 seconds with Revivify.
Note that depending on the cause of death, Revivify doesn't work (it functions as Raise Dead with a few caveats).

[RelentlessImp]

Elven High Mage in Magic of Faerun cheapens Epic Spellcasting and gives you free epic spells as you research Mythals, basically... :smalltongue:

But yes, epic PrCs are pretty bad, with a few not so bad ones here and there...

Like Epic Magic needed that. Seriously, if you take anything in the Epic Level Handbook seriously at all, you need to go read the section on creating epic spells, especially about ad hoc bonuses/penalties and contributing spell slots to the spell.

Then remember Gate is a 9th level spell and that you can Gate in twice your HD with things that can also cast Gate.

[Drelua]

There's also the Epic Insights Compilation which has a bunch of new epic PrCs, feats and stuff. My favourite PrC in there is the Void Incarnate which gets mettle and improved mettle, nondetection like effects that they can share, constant freedom of movement and immunity to all force effects. My main problem with them is that they don't get sneak attack for some reason, which really doesn't make sense with the type of abilities they get, but I still like the class.

[RelentlessImp]

There's also the Epic Insights Compilation which has a bunch of new epic PrCs, feats and stuff. My favourite PrC in there is the Void Incarnate which gets mettle and improved mettle, nondetection like effects that they can share, constant freedom of movement and immunity to all force effects. My main problem with them is that they don't get sneak attack for some reason, which really doesn't make sense with the type of abilities they get, but I still like the class.

I'd like to introduce you to this class (http://www.myth-weavers.com/wiki/index.php/Lightning_Warrior).

[Drelua]

I'd like to introduce you to this class (http://www.myth-weavers.com/wiki/index.php/Lightning_Warrior).

Hit Die: d20. That's never a good sign. Neither is the claim that they need an 18 in every ability score to survive without a familiar. Like familiars are such a huge part of what makes a wizard capable. I like the idea of the class, but the idea of sacrificing power for flavour is just ridiculous. Why do they have anything to do with each other? Part of me suspects that you were pulling my leg with that link. I'm pretty sure whoever made that had very little idea what they were...doing. I just read that last note at the bottom of the page. You suck. :smallannoyed:

[RelentlessImp]

Hit Die: d20. That's never a good sign. Neither is the claim that they need an 18 in every ability score to survive without a familiar. Like familiars are such a huge part of what makes a wizard capable. I like the idea of the class, but the idea of sacrificing power for flavour is just ridiculous. Why do they have anything to do with each other? Part of me suspects that you were pulling my leg with that link. I'm pretty sure whoever made that had very little idea what they were...doing. I just read that last note at the bottom of the page. You suck. :smallannoyed:

<3 you too.

It spawned out of a 339 discussion thread about how Wizard familiars were really powerful if done right (Improved Familiar for an Imp comes to mind) and got a little out of hand. Thus came the Lightning Warrior to release the steam.

Seriously though, the complaints you leveled about that class were like complaining that the golden goose that lays 24k solid gold eggs doesn't also have a separate hole for Cadbury Creme Eggs. Immunity to Force Effects is incredibly powerful and only found on two other creatures - one low level (Force Golem), one high level (Force Dragon). One of these can go Ethereal and be absolutely immune to everything that can kill it.

You do the math.

[Big Fau]

Hit Die: d20. That's never a good sign. Neither is the claim that they need an 18 in every ability score to survive without a familiar. Like familiars are such a huge part of what makes a wizard capable. I like the idea of the class, but the idea of sacrificing power for flavour is just ridiculous. Why do they have anything to do with each other? Part of me suspects that you were pulling my leg with that link. I'm pretty sure whoever made that had very little idea what they were...doing. I just read that last note at the bottom of the page. You suck. :smallannoyed:

As they say on the internet: Trolololololed.


But in all seriousness, the class was intended to be a joke. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AffectionateParody)

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Who even needs epic prcs when there are much better normal prcs?

[Drelua]

Seriously though, the complaints you leveled about that class were like complaining that the golden goose that lays 24k solid gold eggs doesn't also have a separate hole for Cadbury Creme Eggs. Immunity to Force Effects is incredibly powerful and only found on two other creatures - one low level (Force Golem), one high level (Force Dragon). One of these can go Ethereal and be absolutely immune to everything that can kill it.

You do the math.

I know those are some really cool abilities, I didn't intend to complain about the class mechanically, I was just saying that it seems like sneak attack would fit really well with that class, especially considering the ability that makes people ignore them until they've attacked, guaranteeing them a sneak attack at the beginning of a fight. I had a lot of fun with that class as a rogue 11/invisible blade 5/streetfighter 5(bad choice, I know)/void incarnate 9+, and I wasn't complaining about the class' abilities when magic missile came up, or when there was a wall of force around an entire city.

[RelentlessImp]

Who even needs epic prcs when there are much better normal prcs?

Obviously, because EPIC LEVELS require EPIC PRESTIGE CLASSES found in the EPIC HANDBOOK.

Not even other sourcebooks that use Epic Rules touch those things; see Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, any of the epic spellcasters such as Elminster or the Simbul. That's how bad the entire book is.

[hex0]

Dragon #297?

Any thoughts?

[Big Fau]

Dragon #297?

Any thoughts?

*Statement redacted due to excessive vulgarity.*

[Coidzor]

Dragon #297?

Any thoughts?

Never read it. Now I'm curious.

Doesn't most of the Epic rules set kinda blow because they just didn't care?

[hex0]

Never read it. Now I'm curious.

Doesn't most of the Epic rules set kinda blow because they just didn't care?

It has Assassin's answer to Sublime Chord, for one. More abilities for Druid, Monk etc. Basically extending your class above level 20 instead of just taking levels to get bonus epic feats.

Also, sweet artwork.

[deuxhero]

Obviously, because EPIC LEVELS require EPIC PRESTIGE CLASSES found in the EPIC HANDBOOK.

Not even other sourcebooks that use Epic Rules touch those things; see Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, any of the epic spellcasters such as Elminster or the Simbul. That's how bad the entire book is.

Which has more to do with the fact that Epic spells simply don't exist in the realms.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Which has more to do with the fact that Epic spells simply don't exist in the realms.
Um... yes they do. FR splatbooks even have a couple.

[RelentlessImp]

Um... yes they do. FR splatbooks even have a couple.

Not to mention the ritual to create a Mithal/Mythal or whatever it's called, which requires epic spellcasting.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Hit Die: d20. That's never a good sign. Neither is the claim that they need an 18 in every ability score to survive without a familiar. Like familiars are such a huge part of what makes a wizard capable. I like the idea of the class, but the idea of sacrificing power for flavour is just ridiculous. Why do they have anything to do with each other? Part of me suspects that you were pulling my leg with that link. I'm pretty sure whoever made that had very little idea what they were...doing. I just read that last note at the bottom of the page. You suck. :smallannoyed:

...You needed a note to know that class was a joke? Saying that's intended for play is like saying the Mary Sue class on the dandwiki is intended for play.

[Drelua]

...You needed a note to know that class was a joke? Saying that's intended for play is like saying the Mary Sue class on the dandwiki is intended for play.

Hey, there's a lot of bad homebrew out there. I suspected it was a joke that he linked it, but I've seen serious homebrew classes with a d20 HD and some that were just as stupid. Have you seen the guy that said a katana should, to reflect it's real life effectiveness, have a threat range of 17-20/x4, with ~2d8 (I'm not quite sure about that part) damage die? If that class was serious, it still wouldn't be the worst homebrew I'd ever seen.

[RandomLunatic]

Hey, there's a lot of bad homebrew out there. I suspected it was a joke that he linked it, but I've seen serious homebrew classes with a d20 HD and some that were just as stupid. Have you seen the guy that said a katana should, to reflect it's real life effectiveness, have a threat range of 17-20/x4, with ~2d8 (I'm not quite sure about that part) damage die? If that class was serious, it still wouldn't be the worst homebrew I'd ever seen.

Um, that is a joke too. (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Katanas_are_Underpowered_in_d20)

I think your sarcasm detector needs to be checked.

OT: "Epic" blows in general. Is it any surprise the classes stink?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Hey, there's a lot of bad homebrew out there. I suspected it was a joke that he linked it, but I've seen serious homebrew classes with a d20 HD and some that were just as stupid. Have you seen the guy that said a katana should, to reflect it's real life effectiveness, have a threat range of 17-20/x4, with ~2d8 (I'm not quite sure about that part) damage die? If that class was serious, it still wouldn't be the worst homebrew I'd ever seen.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/67064/1977608-epic_facepalm_when_you_just_know_you_messed_up_dem .jpg

Do you imagine everything typed being said in a deadpan voice or something?
Edit: Wrong question. Are you confused by deadpan jokes or dry humor?

OT: Legendary Dreadnought is okay, if you'd otherwise be an epic barbarian. Take the Damage Reduction feat multiple times, as Damage Reduction, the barbarian's damage reduction, and the Legendary Dreadnought's damage reduction stack.

[Icewraith]

One of my players thought the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil "Wasn't powerful enough" and "didn't quite fit the flavor he wanted."

The result made the lightning warrior pale in comparison.

[hex0]

One of my players thought the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil "Wasn't powerful enough" and "didn't quite fit the flavor he wanted."

The result made the lightning warrior pale in comparison.

Beholdermage/Incantatrix/Iotsv build please then we'll talk.

[Coidzor]

It has Assassin's answer to Sublime Chord, for one.

That's nice. I've always felt there should be more classes along those lines than Sublime Chord and Ur-Priest that weren't neutered.

[Drelua]

Damn, maybe I need to spend more time on the internet. Sarcasm doesn't translate well to text unless you're used to it, and I hadn't spent any time conversing online until a few months ago when I got a facebook account and joined this forum. My bad.

[Nexaduro]

The only piece of Epic material I've ever heard of that particularly interests me is Familicide, which my GM directed me to. Anything that aids in my extermination of the Griffon race is a definite plus.

Damned things just keep trying to kill me.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Damn, maybe I need to spend more time on the internet. Sarcasm doesn't translate well to text unless you're used to it, and I hadn't spent any time conversing online until a few months ago when I got a facebook account and joined this forum. My bad.

It's kinds hard to see it as serious when the same page has "duct tape is underpowered in d20". :smallbiggrin:

[hex0]

That's nice. I've always felt there should be more classes along those lines than Sublime Chord and Ur-Priest that weren't neutered.

Me too. Getting 9th level spells at (27?) isn't great but it gives you a bunch of stuff to keep Death Attack semi-relevant.

Perfected One is nice, but basically requires you to be a 20th level Monk.

[tyckspoon]

The only piece of Epic material I've ever heard of that particularly interests me is Familicide, which my GM directed me to. Anything that aids in my extermination of the Griffon race is a definite plus.

Damned things just keep trying to kill me.

Unfortunately if you're using the Epic Spell rules as written it would probably be faster and cheaper to personally hunt down every single Griffon than it would be to develop and cast Familicide (alternately, you're using infinite mitigation techniques, and the game is basically freeform at that point.)

[Telonius]

Um, that is a joke too. (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Katanas_are_Underpowered_in_d20)

I think your sarcasm detector needs to be checked.


I think there needs to be some kind of special bizarro-subset of the Turing Test. If it's impossible for an outside observer to tell whether or not a homebrew suggestion is a parody or a real suggestion, the game has reached a critical mass of munchkinry.

[LudiDrizzt]

Unfortunately if you're using the Epic Spell rules as written it would probably be faster and cheaper to personally hunt down every single Griffon than it would be to develop and cast Familicide (alternately, you're using infinite mitigation techniques, and the game is basically freeform at that point.)

Familicide can be done without mitigation cheese at roughly 127 SC.

[tyckspoon]

Familicide can be done without mitigation cheese at roughly 127 SC.

Costing just 1,143,00 GP; 23 days worth of development time; and 45,720 XP. That's still about 1/4 of expected wealth by the time you can actually save up enough XP to develop the spell- even in Epic that much XP is between 3 to ~1.33 levels worth.. nevermind the additional cost of jacking your Spellcraft up high enough to actually cast it.

Like I said: It'll be cheaper and easier to just go kill every Griffon yourself.

[deuxhero]

Um... yes they do. FR splatbooks even have a couple.

I thought >9 level spells were banned from the weave due to what killed the first Mystra?

[Tvtyrant]

I thought >9 level spells were banned from the weave due to what killed the first Mystra?

No, 11 and 12 level spells are. Epic level spells are technically slotless, but 10th level slots do exist and you can learn to cast them under weird circumstances in FR.

[Drelua]

No, 11 and 12 level spells are. Epic level spells are technically slotless, but 10th level slots do exist and you can learn to cast them under weird circumstances in FR.

For an example of this, see The Ghost King by Salvatore. Great book, I'd say the best of all the drizzt books, and it involves what can only be explained as epic spellcasting by, in case you haven't read it yet and don't wanna know, Cadderly.

[tyckspoon]

I thought >9 level spells were banned from the weave due to what killed the first Mystra?

Natively 10+ level spells aren't permitted any more. Level 10+ slots like those created by Improved Spell Capacity are fine, to the best of my knowledge; they're just used to metamagic high-level spells. I'm not familiar enough with FR to know why Epic Spells are ok but level 10+ isn't, aside from the out-of-world fact that they have a rules structure for Epic Spells but haven't written any Level 10 or higher spells.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Epic spells are very expensive and time consuming to develop, because they're dealing with raw magic power. 10th level spells (and higher) are like 9th level spells, but they're as powerful as epic spells.
Imagine it like that: In your country you could buy a good car. Now you can't buy a car, in the borders of your country, but you can import a car, but it will cost more. Or something like that.

[Tvtyrant]

You cast 10, 11 and 12 level slots as you do the others. Standard action spells that instantly kill every member of an opponents family without development costs, a spell that allows you to literally become a god without any sort of mitigation.

[Alleran]

Natively 10+ level spells aren't permitted any more. Level 10+ slots like those created by Improved Spell Capacity are fine, to the best of my knowledge; they're just used to metamagic high-level spells. I'm not familiar enough with FR to know why Epic Spells are ok but level 10+ isn't, aside from the out-of-world fact that they have a rules structure for Epic Spells but haven't written any Level 10 or higher spells.
Because of the immense strain on the Weave caused by a 10th level or higher spell, it requires a lot of work from Mystryl/Mystra to repair it and compensate for the drain. When Mystryl reincarnated herself into Mystra, she altered the rules so that while epic magic would be possible, 10th level (and higher) spells would not. Epic magic is designed to put much more stress on the caster rather than the Weave.

As to casting true 10th level spells (as opposed to metamagic), it depends. Larloch has been given the ability to cast true 10th level magic by Mystra (not even her Chosen have that - though they do know some true 10th level magic, IIRC they're under the same limits as any other spellcaster), and the Magister has the ability to cast a single 10th level spell at the price of immediately surrendering their position (and Mystra can immediately reverse the spell if she feels it was the wrong choice, though the Magister still loses their position). On top of that, she changed 10th level magic by altering the way it functions and the "paths" of mental control you need to use in order to access it. Basically, the entire system was turned upside down and shaken until everything was in a different place. It works out (in AD&D rules) to there being a 1% chance per caster level of understanding, memorising and casting the spell (assuming you have the slot), and then there's a chance that it will go off wrong and fail anyway, and if it doesn't fail then Mystra and Azuth can immediately reverse it on the caster. I think that's the system, anyway. You can find it in the Secrets of the Magister book if you're really interested.

I worked out the equivalent epic spell costs for 10th and 11th level magic once. It more or less comes out to 10th level spellcraft DCs (without mitigation) ranging from 150 through to about 400+, and 11th level spells being all but unstattable. They were things like changing the weather patterns of the planet, completely sealing a crystal sphere from travel into and out of it, and so on. The Dracorage Mythal epic spell (without mitigation) is probably an okay example of an 11th level spell. And 12th level was, of course, Karsus' Avatar.

[Calanon]

Lightning Warriors are looked down upon by many other professions due to their weaknesses. However, gamers, in a meta-fashion, see the true power of the Lightning Warrior in the flavor it holds.


Lightning Warriors are looked down upon by many other professions due to their weaknesses. However, gamers, in a meta-fashion, see the true power of the Lightning Warrior in the flavor it holds.

...It is now my new mission to find a weakness to this class... besides the DM of course :smalltongue:

[Basket Burner]

Hey, there's a lot of bad homebrew out there. I suspected it was a joke that he linked it, but I've seen serious homebrew classes with a d20 HD and some that were just as stupid. Have you seen the guy that said a katana should, to reflect it's real life effectiveness, have a threat range of 17-20/x4, with ~2d8 (I'm not quite sure about that part) damage die? If that class was serious, it still wouldn't be the worst homebrew I'd ever seen.

Kaiorti Improved Critical.

...What?

[Cieyrin]

Kaiorti Improved Critical.

...What?

That isn't homebrew, though, that's WotC approved Web Enhancement material. Doesn't mean it's not insane but there is a slight difference.

[Basket Burner]

That isn't homebrew, though, that's WotC approved Web Enhancement material. Doesn't mean it's not insane but there is a slight difference.

My point is that anyone that wanted katanas to be dumb in that way could without houserules.

[JaronK]

...It is now my new mission to find a weakness to this class... besides the DM of course :smalltongue:

Lack of a familiar. Makes it weaker than a Wizard.

JaronK

[herrhauptmann]

Obviously, because EPIC LEVELS require EPIC PRESTIGE CLASSES found in the EPIC HANDBOOK.

Not even other sourcebooks that use Epic Rules touch those things; see Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, any of the epic spellcasters such as Elminster or the Simbul. That's how bad the entire book is.

The FRCS was written before the ELH, which is why characters like Elminster have a level in 'Epic.' He and others were restatted in the ELH, but that was still fairly early on in 3.0, so he and others are victims of some massive power creep for their general builds.

[dextercorvia]

...It is now my new mission to find a weakness to this class... besides the DM of course :smalltongue:


Lack of a familiar. Makes it weaker than a Wizard.

JaronK

Furthermore, they can't specialize.