do the spell theif and beguiler need fixes?

[Kol Korran]

hi there. i intend to use these classes in a new campaign. they look pretty nifty to me, and i was wondering if there are any dangers or pitfalls at using these classes (as player or DM), if so, do they have any fixes?

also, i wasn't quite sure- can a spell thief affect the following:
- warlock invocations?
- binder's binding?
- dragon shaman's auras?
- hex blades' curse ability?
- bard's bardic music?

thanks in advance, Kol.

(search word: piratewitch)

[CockroachTeaParty]

I'd say they are both pretty solid classes; their primary weaknesses are issues of specialization.

Beguilers depend on mind-affecting spells and illusions. This reduces their usefulness a great deal versus undead, and by higher levels, when things are regularly immune to mind-affecting spells, and even have at-will See Invisibility or True Seeing, then the Beguiler will start to feel much less useful. This is primarily an issue vs. high level casters, undead, and outsiders.

Spellthieves are at their best fighting spellcasters who are not immune to critical hits; this is a pretty narrow area of focus, and the number of things immune to crits at high levels increases a great deal. They can't handle undead very well, and the right magic items or buff spells can also render them all but useless.

Fortunately, both classes have access to UMD, which helps give them options during encounters where their abilities are of less use, but that's a costly and situational solution at best.

[RelentlessImp]

Steal Spell-Like Ability, which the Spellthief gets at level 5, allows them to steal things like a Warlock's Invocations (suppressing their access to it for a bit), specific things Binding grants Binders (Any Spell-Like ability), and possibly Bardic Music. I believe, however, the Hexblade's Curse is (Su), and Dragon Shaman auras are (Ex).

However, anything with (Sp) is fair game for Steal Spell-Like Ability, so long as at least one use remains.

That said, Spellthief, as a class, could probably stand to have a slightly faster Sneak Attack progression and Bard spellcasting progression.

[Zaq]

Steal Spell-Like Ability, which the Spellthief gets at level 5, allows them to steal things like a Warlock's Invocations (suppressing their access to it for a bit), specific things Binding grants Binders (Any Spell-Like ability), and possibly Bardic Music. I believe, however, the Hexblade's Curse is (Su), and Dragon Shaman auras are (Ex).

However, anything with (Sp) is fair game for Steal Spell-Like Ability, so long as at least one use remains.

That said, Spellthief, as a class, could probably stand to have a slightly faster Sneak Attack progression and Bard spellcasting progression.

Everything a Binder gets from a vestige is (Su). Everything.

Anyway, Beguilers are a rock-solid class that don't need any help. It's possible to play them wrong, but that's more player error than class design failure. Spellthieves are pretty weak and could use a boost here and there, but I can't think of any single boost that they need more than any other.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Beguiler is a spectacular class as if played smart. There are some things that help it considerably, like a liberal interpretation of its interaction with the feat Versatile Spellcaster, and a one level Mindbender dip as early as possible. Its higher level problems can easily be solved through Advanced Learning (Ray of Stupidity, Shadow Form, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Greater Shadow Evocation, and Superior Invisibility would be my choices). You could even get the feat Magical Training to get a spellbook and the ability to learn spells as a Wizard, which could then be cast via Versatile Spellcaster. It's also an ideal choice to use with Wizard and Ultimate Magus, especially with Able Learner and caster level tricks to add 10/10 UM to Wizard spellcasting.

Bardic Music is fine as-is, so long as you allow (nearly) all of the tools to boost it. There's the Badge of Valor in MIC to add +1, the Inspirational Boost spell in SpC to add +1, the feat Song of the Heart in ECS for another +1, certain masterwork instruments in CV and S&S to add various effects, among which is another +1, and then there's Words of Creation which outright doubles the bonus. Melodic Casting is a feat in CM which allows you to cast spells and use command word and spell completion items without interrupting your bardic music, plus you can make Perform checks instead of Concentration checks. Dragonfire Inspiration is a feat in Dragon Magic which changes your Inspire Courage attack bonus into an equal number of d6's of fire damage (i.e. a +5 turns into +5d6 damage). With Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) and/or Obtain Familiar + Improved Familiar and/or Leadership and/or a good size party (with their own animal companions) a Bard with an optimized Inspire Courage makes a significant contribution. Savage Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) from UA is mechanically better due to Fort saves being more important than Reflex saves, plus you get quite a few additional spell choices.

Hexblade Curse: they should get to add their Cha bonus to the number of daily uses, and it shouldn't use up one of those daily uses if the opponent makes the save.

[shadow_archmagi]

Bardic Music is fine as-is....

I think he was asking whether a spellthief can steal bardic music, not whether bardic music is balanced.

My instinct is to say that by default, no, a spellthief can't steal any of those things because they aren't spells. However, I havn't read the class in some time, so it may be otherwise.

Besides, the idea of stabbing a poet in the kidneys and thusly learning to sing is wonderful. I'd definitely allow it.

[RelentlessImp]

I think he was asking whether a spellthief can steal bardic music, not whether bardic music is balanced.

My instinct is to say that by default, no, a spellthief can't steal any of those things because they aren't spells. However, I havn't read the class in some time, so it may be otherwise.

Besides, the idea of stabbing a poet in the kidneys and thusly learning to sing is wonderful. I'd definitely allow it.

Technically, yes. They can steal Fascinate (Sp), Suggestion (Sp), Song of Freedom (Sp), and Mass Suggestion (Sp).



Steal Spell Like Ability (Su):
...This spell-like ability can originate from the target's class, race, template, or any other source, and can be of any level up to a maximum of one-third the spellthief's class level. A spellthief can select a specific spell-like ability to steal; otherwise, the DM chooses the ability at random. If the ability has a limited number of uses per day, the target must have at least one such use left, or the spellthief can't steal the ability. If the target can't use its ability at the present time (such as a summoned demon's summon ability), the spellthief can't steal it.

A spellthief can use a stolen spell-like ability once. For all purposes (caster level, save DC, and so on), treat the spell-like ability as if it were being used by the original possessor of the ability.


Just the pertinent stuff.

[Kol Korran]

ok... so no (Su). however, in my campaign i want to make the class one who hunts down all manner of magic users, of all varieties.

how problematic would it be to give the class a similar "steal supernatural ability" which works just exact as the spell like stealing? that way the spell thief could affect binders, dragon shaman's auras and breath, hex blade's curses and probably more.

will that work, or will it break the game? what level should the spell thief get this ability? i was thinking... 8? (for no real reason)

also, thanks for the useful comments so far.

[RelentlessImp]

8's a good level. A little late, but it's about when (Su) abilities start becoming common.

You might also want to lower Absorb Spell (immediate action) down to level 10 or so, and bump their Sneak Attack progression to +1d6 at 1, +1d6 every 3rd level after (4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, 19th), and give them a Bard's spellcasting progression. Take a page from the Trapsmith (Dungeonscape) class and give them USEFUL spells at lower levels, things that can shut down similarly-leveled spellcasters (Minor Globe of Invulnerability) or make them better at their job (Haste).

Also, Discover Spells is a neat ability, but too late. Make it 2nd level or something.

There, Spellthief is fixed to nearly Rogue level.

[Frosty]

The Hellbreaker Prestice Class from Fiendish Codex 2 gives Steal (Su) at 8th level, so we're talking about ECL 13 before one can get it normally.

[RelentlessImp]

The Hellbreaker Prestice Class from Fiendish Codex 2 gives Steal (Su) at 8th level, so we're talking about ECL 13 before one can get it normally.

Except WotC is hilariously terrible at balancing classes and apparently have no idea how the game they wrote reads as to how it should play. ECL 13 is more than half your character's life as an adventurer over for the ability to steal an ability that's only a little bit better than a spell and use it once.

[Medic!]

Use it once, but more importantly, deny the original user of said usage *wink*

[Frosty]

Except WotC is hilariously terrible at balancing classes and apparently have no idea how the game they wrote reads as to how it should play. ECL 13 is more than half your character's life as an adventurer over for the ability to steal an ability that's only a little bit better than a spell and use it once.I thibk the SPellthief and the Hellbreaker could both use some buffs, true.

[hex0]

Let's compare the Rogue, Psychic Rogue, and Spellthief:

Rogue gets 1/2 Sneak attack, but they are the only class of the three with 8 skill points and they get Special Abilities the soonest. They also have true uncanny dodge, trapsense (meh), and evasion.

Psychic Rogue gets 7/20 (~1/3) Sneak Attack, evasion, 'sorta' uncanny dodge, and the special abilites a level later than Rogue (but they arguably have much better special abilities. Main highlight: Psionics up to fifth level with a decent list.

Spellthief gets 1/4 Sneak Attack, NO evasion, High will saves for some reason, NO uncanny dodge, NO rogue special abilities. The same spells per day as a Paladin though. Main highlight: Steal everything.

Spellthief is probably the weakest of the three.

My thoughts:
-Keep sneak attack the same to balance the class
-Give them uncanny dodge
-Give them evasion (even Rangers get it eventually)
-Let them cast stolen spells in light armor
-Give them 0 1st level spells per day and 1 spell known at first level, up to 5 spells known/ 4 per day (for first) at 20th, then bump the normal progression up to level five spells (any spells, not just certain schools).
-Change spellgrace to save bonus versus spells (like the Hexblade ability)
-Change high save to Reflex.

[Inferno]

in my campaign i want to make the class one who hunts down all manner of magic users, of all varieties.

I would leave spellthieves as-is if the only real reason for beefing them up is to fill this flavor.

If the biggest offenders of magic users immune to Spellthieves are Binders and hexblades I'd think the spellthieves would simply hunt them that much more. The classes are already thought of as evil/blasphemous out-of-the-box this your order of spellthief mage-hunters just gives them a group to fear above all others.

[HunterOfJello]

Beguiler is really a perfectly fine class as-is. It gets quite a bit better with optimization and if the DM allows the Beguiler to use Runestaves through the use of UMD and arcane spell slots. (UMD to allow the beguiler spell to power the staff as if the beguiler had the appropriate spell in the arcane spell slot.)

The beguiler is really a highly effective controller and rogue/wizard that lacks damaging spells. It really takes the right state of mind to play one happily. If you play a beguiler and think it needs a fix, then you should probably have played a different class instead.

[Chained Birds]

I wonder how a Beguiler 20//Spellthief 20 Gestalt might fair. Can a ray attack SA + Spell Steal? Sounds fairly entertaining to me.

[Morph Bark]

Can a ray attack SA + Spell Steal? Sounds fairly entertaining to me.

Yes. It can.