arcane spell progression

[slento]

Is there a prestige class that grants the spell progression of an ur-priest (spell level per class level) for arcane spells? I know the beholder mage has this but you have to be a beholder and that pretty much defeats the purpose (learning high level spells earlier).

thank you

[RelentlessImp]

Doesn't entirely beat the purpose. There's the old workaround that's been discussed to death of being an Elan Psionicist, taking two copies of Assume Supernatural Ability, paying for a PaO into a Beholder, assuming the Central Metamagic Eye and Eye Stalks, putting out the eye, and leveling in Beholder Mage afterwards.

There's Nar Demonbinder that gets 4th-9th (Shining South, I think?) over 10 levels, and the Sublime Chord that also gets 4th-9th (CArcane) over 10 levels. Both get entered pretty late (Chord at 11th), but are 'fast-track' spellcasting progressions.

[etrpgb]

Actually it is 8th-level spells in 7 class levels.
The Nar is available online (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030502a&page=2). The spell table lacks a row...

You might consider the Sublime Chord, but I am afraid you cannot join before level 10.

Edit:
If you can play an arcane class that knows all its list like warmage or beguiller you can cast high level spells before using versatile spellcaster.

[hex0]

Edit:
If you can play an arcane class that knows all its list like warmage or beguiller you can cast high level spells before using versatile spellcaster.

Who is cooking Nachos now?

[RelentlessImp]

Who is cooking Nachos now?

Human Warmage 1/Rainbow Servant 10.

[slento]

Basically we can do whatever the hell we want. My group doesn't really understand that a character can break a game, and as a result when someone is a caster and they do something clever (not do Xd6 damage) it is misunderstood and recieved as witchcraft (you know what I mean) and the player commiting the 'infraction' is given dirty looks for cheating by the DM. In the past I have played melee characters like a paladin/annointed knight/kensai so as not to upset the balance. We are starting a new campaign that is supposed to be an evil campaign. The other players are playing a wizard (for the rays) and an artificer (has played one before and insists that wands are a bad desicion and a waste of his time). I thought I would also make a caster this time and show what could happen. I was wondering about the arcane up-priest because I was trying to see if I could find something easy like X/ur-priest/mystic theurge and have 9th level arcane and divine spells at least a little before level 17. Mind you I'm doing this for their own good; not just because I like to break games, far out shine other players and make them feel bad about themselves. I may end up going with some ur-priest/RKV combination.

[RelentlessImp]

Go with the Warmage/Rainbow Servant. Here's how you enter:

Human Warmage 1. I hope you can use flaws. Take Non-Combatant and Murky-Eyed.
Feats: Versatile Spellcaster, Heighten Spell, Earth Sense, Earth Spell.
1: Warmage
2: Rainbow Servant 1
3: Rainbow Servant 2
4: Rainbow Servant 3
5: Rainbow Servant 4
6: Rainbow Servant 5
7: Rainbow Servant 6
8: Rainbow Servant 7
9: Rainbow Servant 8
10: Rainbow Servant 9
11: Rainbow Servant 10

By the text (text trumps table), Rainbow Servant is a full-casting Prestige Class, so you lose no caster levels. You now cast as an 11th level Warmage, with your entire spell list at your fingertips, and the entire cleric spell list as well.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Go with the Warmage/Rainbow Servant. Here's how you enter:

Human Warmage 1. I hope you can use flaws. Take Non-Combatant and Murky-Eyed.
Feats: Versatile Spellcaster, Heighten Spell, Earth Sense, Earth Spell.
1: Warmage
2: Rainbow Servant 1
3: Rainbow Servant 2
4: Rainbow Servant 3
5: Rainbow Servant 4
6: Rainbow Servant 5
7: Rainbow Servant 6
8: Rainbow Servant 7
9: Rainbow Servant 8
10: Rainbow Servant 9
11: Rainbow Servant 10

By the text (text trumps table), Rainbow Servant is a full-casting Prestige Class, so you lose no caster levels. You now cast as an 11th level Warmage, with your entire spell list at your fingertips, and the entire cleric spell list as well.

Beguiler and/or Dread Necromancer is better than Warmage.

[RelentlessImp]

Beguiler and/or Dread Necromancer is better than Warmage.

It actually isn't. The Warmage gets the good offensive spells from its class list and the awesome defensive and utility spells from the Cleric list. Dread Necromancer gets a lot of overlap, and the Beguiler's schtick (skillmonkey/arcane caster) is best done single-classed.

[sreservoir]

It actually isn't. The Warmage gets the good offensive spells from its class list and the awesome defensive and utility spells from the Cleric list. Dread Necromancer gets a lot of overlap, and the Beguiler's schtick (skillmonkey/arcane caster) is best done single-classed.

that doesn't make it better. it just means the others don't suck enough that they have difficulty being useful without rainbow servant.

[RelentlessImp]

that doesn't make it better. it just means the others don't suck enough that they have difficulty being useful without rainbow servant.

Well, yes. You go this route with Dread Necromancer, you lose out on its real capstone (level 8) until it's too late to matter, or you don't pick up level 10 Rainbow Servant until you have 9th level spells and the game is over anyway.

You go this route with the Beguiler, you lose out on the few actually decent parts of the class, though they're not very good to begin with. You also have no offense besides Crowd Control until you hit level 11 and can start casting Divine Power and throwing Flamestrikes. Unless you run into undead. I hope you like casting nothing but figment spells.

You go this route with the Warmage, you play like an Evoker Wizard who banned almost everything useful, and at level 11 you suddenly have a character who can back up the actual flavor behind the Warmage class, with an answer for everything and a strategy for everyone.

The DN and Beguiler don't need the help. The Warmage does. So use the class that needs the help.

[Dusk Eclipse]

There is class from the Darksun official conversion to 3.5, Dark or Shadow Templar, let me see if I can get a link to it.

Edit: Shadow Templar from the Athas.org site, download the prg. class index from here

Prestige Classes Apendix 1 (http://athas.org/products/PrC1)

[hex0]

Go with the Warmage/Rainbow Servant. Here's how you enter:

Human Warmage 1. I hope you can use flaws. Take Non-Combatant and Murky-Eyed.
Feats: Versatile Spellcaster, Heighten Spell, Earth Sense, Earth Spell.


I never understood how this is legal. You don't have the higher slots so how are you consider able to cast higher level spells?

[RelentlessImp]

I never understood how this is legal. You don't have the higher slots so how are you consider able to cast higher level spells?

Versatile Spellcaster lets you throw out two spells of a lower level to cast spells of one higher level. You can explicitly cast spells of a level higher than you normally could cast.

So you throw two 1st level spells down the drain to cast a Heightened-to-2nd-Level 1st level spell. Earth Spell then comes in and treats a Heightened spell as one spell level higher than it's heightened to - that is, 3rd level.

And you can do this more than once per day with a good casting stat, so you fulfill the needlessly annoying "Must be able to cast spells of X level".

[Qwertystop]

X/ur-priest/mystic theurge and have 9th level arcane and divine spells at least a little before level 17.

You can make Mystic Theurge a lot better by making one or both of your entry classes spontaneous, then taking Practiced Spellcaster and Heighten. Then you can get into Mystic Theurge at level 4 (1 level minimum of each class, and you need the ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) and (Religion)).

[slento]

Thanks everyone, that was immensely helpful. One last quick question: how do you reconcile the ur-priest not worshipping a god and the RKV worshipping a god?

[skycycle blues]

Thanks everyone, that was immensely helpful. One last quick question: how do you reconcile the ur-priest not worshipping a god and the RKV worshipping a god?

Refluff ether one. ToB has suggestions for making RKV allowable for different Gods than just Wee Jas. You could take that a step further to not requiring a specific deity, but instead a specific type of devotion or idealism.

Or you could refluff Ur-Priest to being worshipers of a specific God who is very choosy about whom they will grant powers to.

[slento]

ok, that's what I figured, but I wasn't sure if there was some other way to get around that.

[etrpgb]

Who is cooking Nachos now?

What do you mean?!?

[Alleran]

Versatile Spellcaster lets you throw out two spells of a lower level to cast spells of one higher level. You can explicitly cast spells of a level higher than you normally could cast.

So you throw two 1st level spells down the drain to cast a Heightened-to-2nd-Level 1st level spell. Earth Spell then comes in and treats a Heightened spell as one spell level higher than it's heightened to - that is, 3rd level.
Quick question about that. The Warmage knows all the spells on its class list for a particular spell level as soon as he gains access to that level of spells. By using Versatile Spellcaster, he's gaining access to second level spells (assuming he can't just get enough second level slots out of it to pony up a 3rd level spell slot), so wouldn't he automatically know all his second level spells and thus not really need Heighten Spell at all, just Earth Spell?

[candycorn]

Quick question about that. The Warmage knows all the spells on its class list for a particular spell level as soon as he gains access to that level of spells. By using Versatile Spellcaster, he's gaining access to second level spells (assuming he can't just get enough second level slots out of it to pony up a 3rd level spell slot), so wouldn't he automatically know all his second level spells and thus not really need Heighten Spell at all, just Earth Spell?

Earth Spell: When you heighten a spell, you may treat it as one level higher than you heightened it to.

It doesn't increase the spell level unless you heighten it.

[Alleran]

Earth Spell: When you heighten a spell, you may treat it as one level higher than you heightened it to.

It doesn't increase the spell level unless you heighten it.
So do you even need Earth Spell if you're getting the 3rd level Warmage spells by opening up 3rd level slots with Versatile Spellcaster, then?

[candycorn]

So do you even need Earth Spell if you're getting the 3rd level Warmage spells by opening up 3rd level slots with Versatile Spellcaster, then?
...Because you're not?

You need a pair of second level spells sacrificed to make a 3rd, via versatile spellcaster, dig?

And at level 1, you don't have that.

[Alleran]

...Because you're not?

You need a pair of second level spells sacrificed to make a 3rd, via versatile spellcaster, dig?

And at level 1, you don't have that.
Ah, never mind. I was thinking that you mash together four 1st level spell slots for two second level spells and then combo those together for a 3rd level one, but reviewing the text for Versatile Spellcaster, it just says you use the two spell slots to cast a spell that is one level higher - not that you actually get the slots themselves.

[candycorn]

Ah, never mind. I was thinking that you mash together four 1st level spell slots for two second level spells and then combo those together for a 3rd level one, but reviewing the text for Versatile Spellcaster, it just says you use the two spell slots to cast a spell that is one level higher - not that you actually get the slots themselves.

That is correct. :)

[SiuiS]

...Because you're not?

You need a pair of second level spells sacrificed to make a 3rd, via versatile spellcaster, dig?

And at level 1, you don't have that.

well of course you don't normally, silly.

But if you have 4 1st level spell slots, why, that could be combined for 2 2nd level slots! And well, those two second level slots could become one third level slot; all it takes is a decent amount of first level spells.

Even better, don't you specifically gain access to bonus spell slot by high attribute as soon as you could cast them? So a warmage with 18 in whichever stat gives him bonus spells per day, combines 1st level spells, and then gains an additional 2nd level slot from ability score? Which grants an additional 3rd, which grants a 4th, which grants a 5th, unless you can boost your casting stat.

Though I have not my books with me, this seems like a logical, if zany, progression.

EDIT: that was fast. What part of the text am I missing that shuts this down?
EDIT AGAIN: Double DERP. I see, my appologies.

[Qwertystop]

Even better, don't you specifically gain access to bonus spell slot by high attribute as soon as you could cast them? So a warmage with 18 in whichever stat gives him bonus spells per day, combines 1st level spells, and then gains an additional 2nd level slot from ability score? Which grants an additional 3rd, which grants a 4th, which grants a 5th, unless you can boost your casting stat.

I don't quite see how this fails.

[SiuiS]

I don't quite see how this fails.

well, as I can see, using two 1st level spell slots to cast a 2nd level spell. It let's you use a higher level spell, but it doesn't create a spell slot for you to use.

Gaining access to higher level spells probably would unlock bonus spells from a high attribute, but unless you had a +6 or higher modifier, you still wouldn't have enough 2nd level slots to combine.

Versatile spellcaster and precocious apprentice could work together to generate 3rd level spell slots, though. And it still works with a lenient DM, as you could easily argue that to cast a higher level spell, you have to have the 'slot' for it.

Still, neat trick! Haven't come across this one before.

[Qwertystop]

well, as I can see, using two 1st level spell slots to cast a 2nd level spell. It let's you use a higher level spell, but it doesn't create a spell slot for you to use.

Gaining access to higher level spells probably would unlock bonus spells from a high attribute, but unless you had a +6 or higher modifier, you still wouldn't have enough 2nd level slots to combine.

Versatile spellcaster and precocious apprentice could work together to generate 3rd level spell slots, though. And it still works with a lenient DM, as you could easily argue that to cast a higher level spell, you have to have the 'slot' for it.

Still, neat trick! Haven't come across this one before.

Oh, right. Forgot about that.