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View Full Version : The D12 - why no love?



Avaris
2011-10-16, 03:36 PM
This has probably come up countless times, but I was having a think about this the other day and thought it would be interesting to bring up again.

We all know that the d12 is essentially the runt of the litter. Very few systems use it for much beyond an occasional odd ability, and none that I am aware of use it for a core mechanic. It is neglected and ignored by most game designers.

This would be understandable if it were an awkward shape, but it occured to me that it is in fact the best, most versatile die. What other die can produce both a 1 in 3 chance and a 1 in 4 chance? No other die can produce both of these useful fractions, which are far easier to get your head round than the 1 in 10 or 1 in 20 chances produced by the d10 and d20.

I suppose the question is, why has an essentially metric system come to dominate rps? Excluding the d6, most systems that I have come across are based on either the d20 (d&d and friends) or the d10 (WoD, any number of percentile systems). This... does not seem entirely logical. Surely a system based on the d12 with easier to follow fractions would be better, especially for new players?

Discuss.

Volthawk
2011-10-16, 03:42 PM
d10/d20 have nice even percentages. d10s have increments of 10%, d20s have increments of 5%, while d12s have increments of...8.3%. That's probably one reason - when modifiers and the like are introduced, with the usual die its easier to work out chances.

Morph Bark
2011-10-16, 03:43 PM
I suppose the question is, why has an essentially metric system come to dominate rps?

Because it's the system science and the military use.

And Europeans.

And those are three things many geeks love (well, two out of three, but still).

BlackestOfMages
2011-10-16, 03:43 PM
Avaris! would you by any chance be the same one from Old World Chronicles?

on topic: I don;t actually have much to say on the matter. I just reacted to the name and sig :smallredface:

Yora
2011-10-16, 03:47 PM
And Europeans.

And Africans, Asians, Australians, South Americans, Mexicans, and Canadians.

Spiryt
2011-10-16, 03:54 PM
I suppose the question is, why has an essentially metric system come to dominate rps? Excluding the d6, most systems that I have come across are based on either the d20 (d&d and friends) or the d10 (WoD, any number of percentile systems). This... does not seem entirely logical. Surely a system based on the d12 with easier to follow fractions would be better, especially for new players?

I guess for some new players from USA....

But generally it's imperial system that's mind numbing for most people around the world - counting with 10s generally just comes way easier with the way our numericals are organized - compared to 12 inches in feet, 3 feets in yard, 16 ounces in pound, 2366-heyctillon brns-4 grains in ounce. Raaaaaaaaaaaaaarggh......

Zeta Kai
2011-10-16, 04:00 PM
I've been making a homebrew roleplaying system that uses nothing but d12s. Making a skill check? Roll a d12. Making an attack? Roll a d12. Rolling for defense? Roll a d12. Randomly determining a treasure? Roll a d12. Looking for a random encounter? Roll a d12. Wanna see what the result of die roll is? Roll a d12.

I really like the d12, based on the same conclusions that the OP mentioned. I'm glad to see that I'm not alone.

FatJose
2011-10-16, 04:08 PM
Well, Barbarian's how I roll...

I do much rather use a d12 on d4 rolls. D4 is the devil.

NecroRebel
2011-10-16, 04:28 PM
Indeed, d4s are evil; they're pointy and greatly hurt to step on, so you know they're out to get you.

d3s are impossible. There's no way, short of alien geometries, to have a 3-sided regular or pseudoregular polyhedron. d3s are the eldritch abominations of the dice world, horrors beyond normal conception, the very sight of which drives men mad!

And d12s... *Shiver* d12s are the vile offspring of d4s and d3s. They are rare, but powerful, combining the impossibility of their odd-numbered parent with the sadism of their even-numbered parent to form something worse than either...

Howler Dagger
2011-10-16, 04:41 PM
And d12s... *Shiver* d12s are the vile offspring of d4s and d3s. They are rare, but powerful, combining the impossibility of their odd-numbered parent with the sadism of their even-numbered parent to form something worse than either...

can i sig this?

On topic: I blame the metric system, and the fact most people think you can just replicate it with 2d6 (you cant). And the fact the barbarians will kill anyone who tries to steal their beloved dice.

IMO, d20, d20, and D6 are wwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy overused.

Morph Bark
2011-10-16, 04:59 PM
And Africans, Asians, Australians, South Americans, Mexicans, and Canadians.

Basically everywhere Europeans other than the British predominated. :smallwink:

Australia doesn't count because the convicts effectively lost their citizenship. :smalltongue:


Also, with regards to the 1 in 3 and 1 in 4 stuff from the OP... 1 in 2 and 1 in 10 chances are easiest to work with to the human mind. Doubling and halving is one of the most basic mathematical calculations one can do, plus we have 10 fingers which our number system is ultimately entirely based on.

As such, we should work with systems of d10s and d2s. :smallwink:

NecroRebel
2011-10-16, 05:11 PM
can i sig this?

If you wish, I have no objections :smallsmile:

BayardSPSR
2011-10-16, 05:17 PM
And Europeans.


You mean... literally everyone but American and Liberian civilians.



I'm sorry! The bandwagon was right there! I couldn't help jumping on it...

But seriously - yes, d20s are heavily overused, though this understandably results from D&D's dominance and the d20's resulting status as an icon of "nerd" culture. D6 use is more justifiable, since they're so common (after all, almost any family that has ever played a board game has one or two lying around somewhere).

I would imagine d12s (and d8s, and d4s) get less love simply because they're specialty dice, but unlike the d20 aren't widely considered an icon of a subculture. And no one's parodied a song by referring to them in the chorus yet - so far as I know.

Amphetryon
2011-10-16, 06:06 PM
Necessary OotS reference (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0121.html).

Geigan
2011-10-16, 06:09 PM
There's a new system being made by cracked monocle, called Tephra (http://www.crackedmonocle.com/tephra/) that's using the d12 as it's core die. This thread reminds me of myself on the drive over to play a test game of it because I was just mentioning how the d12 was so underused to my friend and then BAM I'm suddenly using it for everything. It was funny.:smallbiggrin:

Studoku
2011-10-17, 02:25 AM
On topic: I blame the metric system, and the fact most people think you can just replicate it with 2d6 (you cant).
You can replicate it, it's just not that easy:

Roll a d6 (This will be referred to as Dice A). Roll another d6 (Dice B). If B is even, add 6 to Dice A and that is your result. Otherwise, Dice A is your result.

supermonkeyjoe
2011-10-17, 03:39 AM
in running an Eberron campaign I get to use a D12 for many things as 12 is a common number, random moon? roll a D12, random dragonmark? roll a d12, random plane? roll a d12

Knaight
2011-10-17, 03:47 AM
The d12, d4, and d8 are in much the same boat, both tend to show up in systems that use a range of die types. However, consider the others.

d6: These are ubiquitous, and essentially the default die, mostly because cubes are really easy to fashion, and this was rather relevant back when dice were likely to be carved, not cast. Even now, its the easiest to make well.

d10: World of Darkness is probably the biggest non D&D system there is, and it uses this. As such, it became a fairly standard die for dice pools, and mechanics that evolved out of dice pools (such as the matching system in ORE).

d20: D&D can be thanked for this, and D&D dominates the RPG market. Everything that isn't D&D or WoD is basically a rounding error, when looking at either financials or player bases.

Crossblade
2011-10-17, 05:07 AM
Because it's the system science and the military use.
And Europeans.
And those are three things many geeks love (well, two out of three, but still).

And Africans, Asians, Australians, South Americans, Mexicans, and Canadians.

Basically everywhere Europeans other than the British predominated. :smallwink:
Australia doesn't count because the convicts effectively lost their citizenship. :smalltongue:

You mean... literally everyone but American and Liberian civilians.
Countries that use Metric = Green
Countries that use Imperial = Grey
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ab/Metric_system_adoption_map.svg/500px-Metric_system_adoption_map.svg.png


To answer the OP's issues:
1 in 3 can be solved with a d6, with easier math. d3's even exist, my gf has one.
1 in 4 can be solved with a d4.

d10 and d20 are usually used for percentages or To Hit, everything is typically damage, d12 being very heavy damage, and therefore rarely used since it's so big... and if something large is wanted, d6 can multiply into 12 but 2d6 allow for no 1's to result, and people like higher numbers.

Spiryt
2011-10-17, 07:06 AM
Countries that use Metric = Green
Countries that use Imperial = Grey
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ab/Metric_system_adoption_map.svg/500px-Metric_system_adoption_map.svg.png

d10 and d20 are usually used for percentages or To Hit, everything is typically damage, d12 being very heavy damage,


They use Imperial in Antarctica?

Anyway, my dad told me some horrific stories about people (or engineers, rather :smallamused::smallwink:) counting some lengths and stuff with inches etc. very quickly in Canada ....

They could have been Americans, though.

As far as d12 goes, I like the dice shape etc. quite a lot, too bad it's not used that much.

Reaper_Monkey
2011-10-17, 09:47 AM
I love D12's but exploding D12's are a bit of a pain when you're rolling a handful of them due to their lack of quick addition. Mind D6's fall into this trap more often due to frequency of systems using D6e and its greater chance of exploding.

But yeah, its basically just the lack of ease of obtaining (D6's are sooo easy to buy, both in bulk and just generally) - or their inability to map neatly into statistically worked systems (D10's win there due to the 10% or 1% divisions when used in pairs, or D20's when just one roll if preferred due to its wider range of results). Also bell curves are normally a lot more uniform and "condensed" in their range when using D6's (which I'm sure any GURPS fans will be all to happy to tell you about).

But I still hold a special place in my heart for D12's they're nice looking dice, which don't hurt when stood on, are hard to "drop" onto a side, and often have large enough faces that they are easy to read. The only thing that makes them better are customizing the die with different numerical/symbol faces, D12's ROCK for those! Critical hits, bell curves, +/- die, the face size to print complex symbols on, the D12 is the die you want if you're going to make a custom die!

Telonius
2011-10-17, 10:39 AM
I guess for some new players from USA....

But generally it's imperial system that's mind numbing for most people around the world - counting with 10s generally just comes way easier with the way our numericals are organized - compared to 12 inches in feet, 3 feets in yard, 16 ounces in pound, 2366-heyctillon brns-4 grains in ounce. Raaaaaaaaaaaaaarggh......

Notice that rage it induces in you?

That's why Barbarians use it all the time. It's perfect!

Also, Barbarians will never change over to your fancy-schmancy metric dice. Twelve was good enough for our ancestors, and it's good enough for us. :smalltongue:

Saph
2011-10-17, 10:43 AM
I think this is pretty much the same as asking why we use base 10 rather than base 12. After all, 12 factorises much more nicely than 10 does.

So the answer is probably the same as well: because humans have 10 fingers and 10 toes.

Cieyrin
2011-10-17, 10:49 AM
They use Imperial in Antarctica?

Antarctica isn't a country. :smalltongue:


But I still hold a special place in my heart for D12's they're nice looking dice, which don't hurt when stood on, are hard to "drop" onto a side, and often have large enough faces that they are easy to read. The only thing that makes them better are customizing the die with different numerical/symbol faces, D12's ROCK for those! Critical hits, bell curves, +/- die, the face size to print complex symbols on, the D12 is the die you want if you're going to make a custom die!

A buddy of mine wants to make a system that uses custom d12s as the core dice, just with 1-10 and then Auto-Success and Auto-Failure (Win and Fail) as the other 2 sides. Would work wonderfully for that.

jedipilot24
2011-10-17, 11:56 AM
Alternity uses the d12 and does not use the d10. I think that was done on purpose.

CarpeGuitarrem
2011-10-17, 12:09 PM
A buddy of mine wants to make a system that uses custom d12s as the core dice, just with 1-10 and then Auto-Success and Auto-Failure (Win and Fail) as the other 2 sides. Would work wonderfully for that.
That's what The One Ring RPG from Cubicle 7 does, actually. It's pretty creative.

BarroomBard
2011-10-17, 12:10 PM
A buddy of mine wants to make a system that uses custom d12s as the core dice, just with 1-10 and then Auto-Success and Auto-Failure (Win and Fail) as the other 2 sides. Would work wonderfully for that.

That's actually similar to the system used in the new The One Ring game. It has a custom d12 that has 1-10 and then the Eye of Sauron and some other symbol, although I don't recall what those do at the moment.

Another game that uses d12 as its core die is the Pokethulu game. It uses them partially to be silly, although they are also used because the "shining dodecahedron" is a concept both in Lovecraftian lore and the Lovecraftian/Pokemon hybrid that the game uses.

Frankly, I'm a little amazed to see all the Imperial system bashing here. We're roleplaying nerds: overly complicated systems that only barely map to the real world are our bread and butter :smallbiggrin:

Vknight
2011-10-17, 12:21 PM
The D12 gets love in Ironclaw as the biggest die you can have and you character improves by adding dice which become a d12 eventually. Their is also a pokemon rpg which uses the base stats for the pokemon which determines their dice and again D12's are the best you can roll before rolling multiple dice.

But outside that well the D12 is one not to love as it is not metric and the metric system is easier to read and gain percentiles from.

EccentricCircle
2011-10-17, 02:26 PM
Antarctica isn't a country. :smalltongue:
.

Although as most people in antarctica are from the aformentioned scientists or military they probably use metric.

on the topic of D12's I believe that the new Lord of the Rings system is going to involve them. Its a shame that they don't get used more in RPG's as they are a nice shape. I can't think when I last needed to role one, probably when doing undead hit dice last.

Morph Bark
2011-10-17, 02:27 PM
Alternity uses the d12 and does not use the d10. I think that was done on purpose.

The d10 is the only one that is not a Platonic solid.

Telonius
2011-10-17, 02:31 PM
Although as most people in antarctica are from the aformentioned scientists or military they probably use metric.

On the other hand, penguins have three toes on each foot. It would probably be base-6 (or base-8, if each wing counted) by majority.

BayardSPSR
2011-10-17, 02:55 PM
Countries that use Metric = Green
Countries that use Imperial = Grey
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ab/Metric_system_adoption_map.svg/500px-Metric_system_adoption_map.svg.png


Sorry; forgot Myanmar. Of course, this doesn't detract from the point I was making, which is that use of the imperial system is currently limited to the United States and a handful of backwaters.

Project_Mayhem
2011-10-18, 11:20 AM
Another system that uses d12's reasonably frequently is Savage Worlds. Your level of prowess in a skill or attribute is indicated by having a bigger dice, with d12 as the highest. So high level characters and minmaxers tend to roll them quite a bit :smalltongue:

Knaight
2011-10-18, 11:35 PM
Another system that uses d12's reasonably frequently is Savage Worlds. Your level of prowess in a skill or attribute is indicated by having a bigger dice, with d12 as the highest. So high level characters and minmaxers tend to roll them quite a bit :smalltongue:

d12s tend to show up late in campaigns, if then. As a rule, it works better to have a fairly broad skill base, with some heightened skills under one decent attribute in Savage Worlds, and d12s eat through both attribute levels and skill levels incredibly quickly.

On a side note, what is the capitalization procedure for die codes? The use of a lower case d12 at the start of a sentence just seems wrong, but at the same time, D12s doesn't seem any better.

Fortuna
2011-10-19, 04:40 AM
Dodecahedra? :smalltongue:

Project_Mayhem
2011-10-19, 07:56 AM
d12s tend to show up late in campaigns, if then. As a rule, it works better to have a fairly broad skill base, with some heightened skills under one decent attribute in Savage Worlds, and d12s eat through both attribute levels and skill levels incredibly quickly.

I dunno about that - I've played quite a few specialised characters that worked fine. For example I'd probably never start as a focused caster with anything less than a d8 minimum, and I'd normally start with a d10. Starting edges are probably Arcane background, Rapid recharge, and more PP. Takes 1 level up to get that to d12.

Sure that's a generic, very specialised character - but they can work. You need a skill monkey in the party, sure, but for a few things, like thievery, combat, and magic, you want specialists.

Of course, a plus 2 is normally better than a dice up, so things that can be pumped that way, like persuade most notably, can use the edges instead.

Morph Bark
2011-10-19, 09:40 AM
Dodecahedra? :smalltongue:

Dodecahydra - the twelve-headed die.

Dr.Epic
2011-10-19, 10:14 AM
The d12 is only good if you're a barbarian for HP and weapon damage. If you're not weilding a weapon as a barbarian that can deal at least 12 damage without strength or bonuses, you're doing something wrong, though a greatsword is 2d6, and from a d12 to the next size category up is 3d6. Even barbs don't get that much use out of them I guess.

BayardSPSR
2011-10-19, 12:55 PM
The d12 is only good if you're a barbarian for HP and weapon damage. If you're not weilding a weapon as a barbarian that can deal at least 12 damage without strength or bonuses, you're doing something wrong, though a greatsword is 2d6, and from a d12 to the next size category up is 3d6. Even barbs don't get that much use out of them I guess.

Of course, the issue with d12 for barbarian damage is that the 2d6 you can get from the greatsword is slightly better AND more reliable (due to the curve).

Talya
2011-10-19, 12:59 PM
Basically everywhere Europeans other than the British predominated. :smallwink:

Australia doesn't count because the convicts effectively lost their citizenship. :smalltongue:



Uh...Canada?

CarpeGuitarrem
2011-10-19, 01:00 PM
That's actually similar to the system used in the new The One Ring game. It has a custom d12 that has 1-10 and then the Eye of Sauron and some other symbol, although I don't recall what those do at the moment.
Ninja'd you. :smallwink:

The Eye of Sauron counts as a zero, and it also triggers negative effects from statuses on the player, such as having a bout of madness. The Gandalf Rune allows the roll to automatically succeed, although some tasks require additional degrees of success (rolling 6s on your ability pool) to accomplish. (Very difficult tasks aren't made hard by modifying the base difficulty, I believe, but by requiring a larger degree of success.)

d12 is also used for Old School Hack (http://www.oldschoolhack.net/), a streamlined dungeon/adventure crawler in the spirit of classic D&D, with newer rules innovations.

GungHo
2011-10-19, 01:26 PM
The d10 is the only one that is not a Platonic solid.
I'll remember that the next time it invites me to dinner as "just friends".

Gamgee
2011-10-22, 02:48 AM
Notice that rage it induces in you?

That's why Barbarians use it all the time. It's perfect!

Also, Barbarians will never change over to your fancy-schmancy metric dice. Twelve was good enough for our ancestors, and it's good enough for us. :smalltongue:

Then a space probe dies because of you. Won't someone please think of the space probes!

Demon of Death
2011-10-22, 04:19 PM
As said above, Savage Worlds and the game it's based off of, Deadlands , use the d12 pretty often in regards to players,such as when the Doomsayer has a 5d12 Faith and MIRV's everything to smithereens...(Fun times playing that Doomsayer)

But, in most other systems the d12 is hardly used it seems.

NNescio
2011-10-22, 04:45 PM
Dodecahydra - the twelve-headed die.

No, that would be the twelve-headed hydra.

rweird
2011-10-23, 07:23 AM
to add to the people that mention games that use d12s the OotS adventure game only uses the d12.

herrhauptmann
2011-10-23, 04:58 PM
If any of you remember the old Dragon Strike (early/mid 90s) game, the d12 got a bit more love there.

John Campbell
2011-10-24, 12:34 PM
The d10 is the only one that is not a Platonic solid.
... which is why it's so commonly used in combination with another d10.

Deadlands makes use of the d12 as well. My mad scientist rolled fistfuls of them for his science checks.

Friv
2011-10-24, 03:19 PM
The d12 is only good if you're a barbarian for HP and weapon damage. If you're not weilding a weapon as a barbarian that can deal at least 12 damage without strength or bonuses, you're doing something wrong, though a greatsword is 2d6, and from a d12 to the next size category up is 3d6. Even barbs don't get that much use out of them I guess.

I don't know, I got a lot of use out of d12s when I was throwing hordes of elite Alliance agents at my players. Also, everyone on the player base had a d12 at least in one of their Attributes, with some people having d12+d2 or d12+d4, so there's that.

Necroticplague
2011-10-24, 04:43 PM
can i sig this?

On topic: I blame the metric system, and the fact most people think you can just replicate it with 2d6 (you cant). And the fact the barbarians will kill anyone who tries to steal their beloved dice.

IMO, d20, d20, and D6 are wwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy overused.

?

I've never met anyone who believed this. At the barest look, 2d6 gives results of 2-12, while a d12 gices a result 1-12. The average of a 2d6 is 7, while average of d12 6.5.

NecroRebel
2011-10-24, 04:53 PM
?

I've never met anyone who believed this. At the barest look, 2d6 gives results of 2-12, while a d12 gices a result 1-12. The average of a 2d6 is 7, while average of d12 6.5.

Not only that, but the distribution is vastly different between the two. 1d12 has an even distribution, 8.33% likelihood of each of the 12 numbers, while 2d6 is significantly more likely to produce a 7 than the other numbers (16.67%) and significantly less likely to produce a 2 or 12 (2.78% for each).

Then again, perhaps the intention was more along the lines of "some people believe that since the ranges are very similar they can thus be used in the same fashions." Which... might be true, depending on the particular use being discussed, but usually won't be.

TSED
2011-10-27, 01:13 AM
Uh...Canada?

Let's be fair - Canada was 'adopted' from France, after England won a war with them. You know, Quebec? Where like half of Canada lives? And all of the french-speaking small communities on the maritimes?

The Reverend
2011-10-27, 06:04 AM
We used to use base 12 systems for counting. It was used widely in eastern Europe until the late medieval/renaissance. You still use it when counting time. If your wondering "how did they count on their fingers?" they didn't, they used their knuckles, you have three sections to each finger, then on the other hand you can keep track of the tens place.

Knaight
2011-10-27, 08:01 AM
We used to use base 12 systems for counting. It was used widely in eastern Europe until the late medieval/renaissance. You still use it when counting time. If your wondering "how did they count on their fingers?" they didn't, they used their knuckles, you have three sections to each finger, then on the other hand you can keep track of the tens place.

Time is actually base 60, up until you are dealing with hours. We took that from the Babylonians, who had a fairly sophisticated base 60 system (though they did omit 0).

Stubbazubba
2011-10-27, 01:27 PM
We used to use base 12 systems for counting. It was used widely in eastern Europe until the late medieval/renaissance. You still use it when counting time. If your wondering "how did they count on their fingers?" they didn't, they used their knuckles, you have three sections to each finger, then on the other hand you can keep track of the tens place.

Indeed, hence "eleven" and "twelve" are not really "-teens."

Talya
2011-10-27, 02:37 PM
Let's be fair - Canada was 'adopted' from France, after England won a war with them. You know, Quebec? Where like half of Canada lives? And all of the french-speaking small communities on the maritimes?

Approximately 1/4 of Canadians speak French fluently. The overwhelming majority of the population speaks English, and are not of French-canadian descent, either. (And over 1/3rd of Canada's population is in Ontario alone.)

Coplantor
2011-10-27, 08:57 PM
Alternity uses the d12 and does not use the d10. I think that was done on purpose.

Yup, the designers ignored the d10 to differentiate even more from WoD games.

The_Snark
2011-10-29, 05:32 AM
I don't know, I got a lot of use out of d12s when I was throwing hordes of elite Alliance agents at my players. Also, everyone on the player base had a d12 at least in one of their Attributes, with some people having d12+d2 or d12+d4, so there's that.


Not only that, but the distribution is vastly different between the two. 1d12 has an even distribution, 8.33% likelihood of each of the 12 numbers, while 2d6 is significantly more likely to produce a 7 than the other numbers (16.67%) and significantly less likely to produce a 2 or 12 (2.78% for each).

These two things put together (Cortex system and lack of bell curve) are why I loathe and mistrust the d12. It is a fickle, fickle die and I don't like my best skills being unreliable. The bell curve feels safer.

Rixx
2011-10-29, 06:55 AM
Indeed, hence "eleven" and "twelve" are not really "-teens."

Mind = blown

Aliquid
2011-11-01, 04:10 PM
Am I the only one who doesn't like the D12 because of the way it physically rolls?

Roll any other die, and it stops reasonably quickly. Roll the D12, and it goes on and on… rolls off the table, across the floor… and ends up being played with by the cat.

Shades of Gray
2011-11-01, 09:24 PM
The d20 has the same problem, if not worse.

Cieyrin
2011-11-02, 02:17 PM
Am I the only one who doesn't like the D12 because of the way it physically rolls?

Roll any other die, and it stops reasonably quickly. Roll the D12, and it goes on and on… rolls off the table, across the floor… and ends up being played with by the cat.

The cat plays with my dice anyways, regardless of shape. I agree with Shades on the d20 being more problematic with that but if dice is guilty of that, its the d100. Them things are little better than golf balls, the way they roll.