Fighter with level 9 spells

[Morph Bark]

I´ve heard it thrown around a few times that there was a way a Fighter could gain level 9 spells through feats alone. If this is true, could someone explain the build to me and how it works, or provide a proper link?

[NeoSeraphi]

Probably not what you mean, but any fighter can take Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Vow of Nonviolence, and Vow of Peace, then prestige into Apostle of Peace and get 9th level divine spells.

[dextercorvia]

I outlined the basics in your commoner challenge. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8753936&postcount=35)

Essentially, you use Magical Training to get spellcasting, and then use some of the heighten like effects to count them as higher level, and then take Extra Slot a few times as well as some way of getting spells known -- I'd use Mother Cyst, or a Bloodline feat for starters.

Alternatively, you can play a Naenhoon Illumian with Planar Touchstone: Catalogs of Enlightenment (Sun Domain from DLCS), for Turn Undead, Earth Spell (and its prereqs), Extra Turning, to jump straight to 9th level slots from your first Extra Slot.

[Frosty]

Note that there isn't really any way to do this without the DM making a ranged touch attack at you with a DMG.

[Morph Bark]

I outlined the basics in your commoner challenge. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8753936&postcount=35)

Essentially, you use Magical Training to get spellcasting, and then use some of the heighten like effects to count them as higher level, and then take Extra Slot a few times as well as some way of getting spells known -- I'd use Mother Cyst, or a Bloodline feat for starters.

Alternatively, you can play a Naenhoon Illumian with Planar Touchstone: Catalogs of Enlightenment (Sun Domain from DLCS), for Turn Undead, Earth Spell (and its prereqs), Extra Turning, to jump straight to 9th level slots from your first Extra Slot.

HA! I see. Yeah, I was thinking back to that with the recent Monk 1000 vs Wizard 20 thread and wondered if the Monk just couldn't get spellcasting through feats (or how a super-leveled commoner would do).

Originally I didn't quite get how it worked even with the feats outlined, so lemme try again:
- Magical Training to get cantrips.
- Then they count as 1st-level spells outside your sanctum due to Sanctum Spell I presume,
- which allows you to use them for Precocious Apprentice.
- Apply Sanctum Spell to the spells gained through Precocious Apprentice, making them count as level 3 spells.
- Due to Earth Spell the spell counts as level 4.
- Extra Slot gets you level 3 slots now.
- Heighten a level 2 spell to level 3 and make it a Sanctum spell.
- It counts as a level 4 spell outside your Sanctum,
- but due to Earth Spell's effect its effective level becomes 5.
- Extra Slot gets you level 4 slots now.
- Etcetera.

Is that right?

[sreservoir]

did it in eight, nine for the pedants. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11921151&postcount=59) but then, taint is wonky. min level is 4 with DCFS, I think. note that really, you can get a 9th with only six feats, because you can get to 10th without earth spell; but with them, you can, by a liberal reading, get epic spells. the hardest part is finding someone with 19 con to be your ally, but you can break it up into multiple steps if necessary.

actually, if you have enough feats, you can go up one step at a time, up to 10th, even without eldritch corruption.

so yes, if your monk took magical training at 1st, it can have epic spellcasting at ... 21, 24 if you take character advancement in order, with some feats to get know (arcana) and spellcraft as class skills.

[Chess435]

Probably not what you mean, but any fighter can take Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Vow of Nonviolence, and Vow of Peace, then prestige into Apostle of Peace and get 9th level divine spells.

Hold on here. Why in the world would you give, of all things, a FIGHTER!!!!, Vow of Peace? Doesn't that completely defeat the point of being a fighter?

[dextercorvia]

HA! I see. Yeah, I was thinking back to that with the recent Monk 1000 vs Wizard 20 thread and wondered if the Monk just couldn't get spellcasting through feats (or how a super-leveled commoner would do).

Originally I didn't quite get how it worked even with the feats outlined, so lemme try again:
- Magical Training to get cantrips.
- Then they count as 1st-level spells outside your sanctum due to Sanctum Spell I presume,
- which allows you to use them for Precocious Apprentice.
- Apply Sanctum Spell to the spells gained through Precocious Apprentice, making them count as level 3 spells.
- Due to Earth Spell the spell counts as level 4.
- Extra Slot gets you level 3 slots now.
- Heighten a level 2 spell to level 3 and make it a Sanctum spell.
- It counts as a level 4 spell outside your Sanctum,
- but due to Earth Spell's effect its effective level becomes 5.
- Extra Slot gets you level 4 slots now.
- Etcetera.

Is that right?

The piggy back trick works as you have outlined it -- you can skip Precocious Apprentice, and just use Heighten, Sanctum (inside your sanctum though to count as higher), Earth Spell, Improved Sigil (Krau).

Or as I was saying -- you can use the Naenhoon effect. This is like DMM Heighten that explicitly works (and you can use it to power other metamagics later. You have to blow a couple of feats getting Turn Undead, but all in all, it is worth it.

Yeah, if I were going to play an Epic Mundane against Non-Epic Wizard challenge, and wanted to actually win, rather than try to prove that X was better than Y, I would definitely use all my feats to become non mundane.

[NeoSeraphi]

Hold on here. Why in the world would you give, of all things, a FIGHTER!!!!, Vow of Peace? Doesn't that completely defeat the point of being a fighter?

To be a fighter with 9th level divine spells, of course!

[noparlpf]

You have to blow a couple of feats getting Turn Undead

How does this part work?

[dextercorvia]

How does this part work?

There are two ways (that I know of). One is a feat from Dragon Magazine: Divine Channeler (requires another feat as a prereq) lets you turn or rebuke once per day. The other way is gaining access to the Sun Domain ability from DLCS. DLCS rewords the sun domain granted ability to give you Turn Undead as a cleric. The easiest way to get this (without being a cleric) is the Planar Touchstone feat linked to Catalogs of Enlightenment, which lets you choose a domain granted ability.

There is also some Druidic Bone sigil spell, but I don't see how those would stack.

[candycorn]

It takes a very liberal reading for that to work.

Earth spell and Sanctum spell only add +1 to the spell level when you cast them.

Extra Slot gives you spells one level lower than the highest level spell you can cast.

So, if you have a cantrip prepared in a level 0 slot, it is a level 0 spell. It may be a level 2 spell when you cast it, but, it is a level 0 spell at all other times.

Therefore, <highest level spell you can cast> is 0. Because when prepared, the spell is a level 0. When it's cast, it's 2, but at that point, you can no longer cast it (because it is already cast).

[NNescio]

It takes a very liberal reading for that to work.

Earth spell and Sanctum spell only add +1 to the spell level when you cast them.

Extra Slot gives you spells one level lower than the highest level spell you can cast.

So, if you have a cantrip prepared in a level 0 slot, it is a level 0 spell. It may be a level 2 spell when you cast it, but, it is a level 0 spell at all other times.

Therefore, <highest level spell you can cast> is 0. Because when prepared, the spell is a level 0. When it's cast, it's 2, but at that point, you can no longer cast it (because it is already cast).

Wizard/Io7fV. Suddenly loses his Io7fV class features once he casts enough Abjuration spells. Or doesn't have enough prepared in the first place.

That can't be right.

[etrpgb]

Battle Sorcerer9 /Dragon Slayer 1/Eldritch Knight 10 ?

[Coidzor]

HA! I see. Yeah, I was thinking back to that with the recent Monk 1000 vs Wizard 20 thread and wondered if the Monk just couldn't get spellcasting through feats (or how a super-leveled commoner would do).

Heh, me too. Wanted to bring that up, actually, thought I'd brought up the bit where, using feats, one can basically become a totemist-incarnate hybrid, at least a 7th level binder, and probably get some psionics love in there too...

[candycorn]

Wizard/Io7fV. Suddenly loses his Io7fV class features once he casts enough Abjuration spells. Or doesn't have enough prepared in the first place.

That can't be right.

It's not. You misunderstood.

You check for the level of spells when they are prepared, not after they are cast.

When an Iot7V prepares spells, he can prepare the spells required. He passes.

When this class prepares spells, they are LEVEL 0 CANTRIPS.
They only become level 2 after they are no longer able to fulfill the requirement.

Which means, at no point does the Magical Training character ever have a level 2 spell that he is able to cast. Or even a level 1 spell that he is able to cast.

Before casting, it's a level 0.
After casting, it's a level 2, but now it can't be cast, because it's already cast.

Catch-22. The character's ability never meets the requirements. Ever. Not at any point of the process. And that's the difference. An Iot7V? Met the requirements when he prepared spells.

[Little Brother]

There's also the Taint trick:

1 Magical Training
h Practiced Spellcaster
t eldritch corruption
3 heighten spell
6 sanctum spell
9 earth sense
12 earth spell
15 extra slot
18 extra spell


It's not. You misunderstood.

You check for the level of spells when they are prepared, not after they are cast.

When an Iot7V prepares spells, he can prepare the spells required. He passes.

When this class prepares spells, they are LEVEL 0 CANTRIPS.
They only become level 2 after they are no longer able to fulfill the requirement.

Which means, at no point does the Magical Training character ever have a level 2 spell that he is able to cast. Or even a level 1 spell that he is able to cast.

Before casting, it's a level 0.
After casting, it's a level 2, but now it can't be cast, because it's already cast.

Catch-22. The character's ability never meets the requirements. Ever. Not at any point of the process. And that's the difference. An Iot7V? Met the requirements when he prepared spells.
But if he cast the spell, he clearly CAN cast them, since he did. Therefore, he meets the reqs.

[Morph Bark]

It takes a very liberal reading for that to work.

Earth spell and Sanctum spell only add +1 to the spell level when you cast them.

Extra Slot gives you spells one level lower than the highest level spell you can cast.

So, if you have a cantrip prepared in a level 0 slot, it is a level 0 spell. It may be a level 2 spell when you cast it, but, it is a level 0 spell at all other times.

Therefore, <highest level spell you can cast> is 0. Because when prepared, the spell is a level 0. When it's cast, it's 2, but at that point, you can no longer cast it (because it is already cast).

Bolded for emphasis. If it depends on the highest level spell you can cast, that is 2. If it depends on the highest level spell known, it is 0.

[candycorn]

Bolded for emphasis. If it depends on the highest level spell you can cast, that is 2. If it depends on the highest level spell known, it is 0.

No. No. No.

When you prepare spells, they are spells that can be cast.

When you cast spells, they are no longer spells that can be cast. Therefore, a spell that is being cast will never qualify as a spell that can be (read: has the potential to be) cast.

They are spells that are being cast.

This ability is concerned with the level of castable spells.

That level is 0, because at any stage other than "prepared", the spell is not castable. It is either being cast, or expended. And at that "prepared" stage, the level of the spell is 0.

[noparlpf]

So right now there are two positions here.

1. If, when you cast a spell, it is a 2nd level spell, then you are able to cast a 2nd level spell.

2. If, when you cast a spell, it is a 2nd level spell, then you cannot cast 2nd level spells.


I think I'm gonna go with #1 there, just based on the wording of "highest level spell you can cast". If you do something (casting a 2nd level spell) then you must have been able to do it (hence you are able to cast 2nd level spells).

Now, if they had written PrCs, feats, and the like properly, it might say something like "the highest level spell you can cast without using shenanigans involving Sanctum Spell, Earth Spell, or any other tricks found on forums".


a feat from Dragon Magazine: Divine Channeler (requires another feat as a prereq)

Which magazine is this? I couldn't find it easily with Google.

[candycorn]

So right now there are two positions here.

1. If, when you cast a spell, it is a 2nd level spell, then you are able to cast a 2nd level spell.

2. If, when you cast a spell, it is a 2nd level spell, then you cannot cast 2nd level spells.
Strawman. Misstated opinion.

If a spell which is second level is able to be cast by you, then you can cast second level spells.

If no spell which is second level is able to be cast by you, then you cannot cast second level spells.


I think I'm gonna go with #1 there, just based on the wording of "highest level spell you can cast". If you do something (casting a 2nd level spell) then you must have been able to do it (hence you are able to cast 2nd level spells).Highest level spell you can cast:

Take all spells you can cast. Look at the level of the highest one. That is the highest level spell that you can cast. If that spell is a non heightened level 0 cantrip? Then it's not a second level spell, now is it?

The bottom line is that some people are trying to use fancy wordplay to say that 0=2.

It doesn't.

There is a difference between being able to cast a level 0 spell that becomes a level 2 spell, and being able to cast a level 2 spell.

Now, if they had written PrCs, feats, and the like properly, it might say something like "the highest level spell you can cast without using shenanigans involving Sanctum Spell, Earth Spell, or any other tricks found on forums"....But why would they add in text that would only apply if people deliberately misread the rules?

[noparlpf]

Strawman. Misstated opinion.

If a spell which is second level is able to be cast by you, then you can cast second level spells.

If no spell which is second level is able to be cast by you, then you cannot cast second level spells.

Yes, but when you cast the spell, it is second level. How could you cast it if you are not able to cast it? Therefore there is a second level spell which is able to be cast by you, and you can cast second level spells.


Highest level spell you can cast:
Take all spells you can cast. Look at the level of the highest one. That is the highest level spell that you can cast. If that spell is a non heightened level 0 cantrip? Then it's not a second level spell, now is it?

The bottom line is that some people are trying to use fancy wordplay to say that 0=2.

It doesn't.

And if that spell is a heightened/sanctumed/earth spelled level 2 cantrip? Then is is a second level spell.
What people are trying to use fancy wordplay to do is to say that 0+1+1=2. Which in most forms of math it does; let's not go into those other ones.


...But why would they add in text that would only apply if people deliberately misread the rules?

It's not only going to apply when people "deliberately misread the rules". What's happening is that people are reading the rules as they were written, and they were written vaguely, leaving room for things like this to happen. By the book this is technically legitimate.

[candycorn]

Yes, but when you cast the spell, it is second level. How could you cast it if you are not able to cast it? Therefore there is a second level spell which is able to be cast by you, and you can cast second level spells.Incorrect. Oversimplification.

The spell IS level 0. No amount of rationalization will change that. You prepare a level 0 spell in a level 0 slot. You can ponder that spell in your mind all day long, and yep. There it is, level 0.

You need to cast your level 0 spell, so you begin casting it. Now the spell is being cast, and it's still a level 0 spell.

You successfully complete the casting. Poof! It becomes a level 2 spell. But that doesn't change the fact that the spell that was cast became a second level spell only once you fully cast it.

When you prepared it? Nope.
At the time you began casting? Nope.

This line of reasoning is no different than saying, "well, my character has the capability to gain 17 levels in wizard, so he can cast 9th level spells".

Until you are done with the casting act, it is not level 2. Thus, you did not cast a level 2 spell. You cast a level 0 spell, which became level 2 upon successfully being cast.


And if that spell is a heightened/sanctumed/earth spelled level 2 cantrip? Then is is a second level spell.
No. That is a level 0 spell. It is only level 2 when successfully cast. At all other times, it's 0 (cantrip) + 1 (heighten) - 1 (sanctum penalty) = level 0.


What people are trying to use fancy wordplay to do is to say that 0+1+1=2. Which in most forms of math it does; let's not go into those other ones.
No. In all ways, the spell you select to cast and then perform the casting act takes the sanctum penalty. FOR ALL PURPOSES.

Is this a purpose dependent on spell level? Yes.
Therefore, it takes the penalty.

You're saying that a wizard can carry a pebble in his hand, then place it on the ground, and PAO it into a boulder. Congratulations! Your wizard can lift a massive boulder with one hand!

Nope. Because at the time it was lifted, it was not a boulder.

Same thing here.
We're not looking at the end level of the spell.
We're looking at the level of the spell when you are performing the casting act.


It's not only going to apply when people "deliberately misread the rules". What's happening is that people are reading the rules as they were written, and they were written vaguely, leaving room for things like this to happen. By the book this is technically legitimate.
Only under the most liberal misinterpretations.

[noparlpf]

Well, obviously nobody's convincing anybody of anything here, so let's agree to disagree and drop the argument. How does that sound to you?

[Morph Bark]

Strawman. Misstated opinion.

If a spell which is second level is able to be cast by you, then you can cast second level spells.

If no spell which is second level is able to be cast by you, then you cannot cast second level spells.

Highest level spell you can cast:

Take all spells you can cast. Look at the level of the highest one. That is the highest level spell that you can cast. If that spell is a non heightened level 0 cantrip? Then it's not a second level spell, now is it?

Two things:

1. It is not a strawman as he did not state either of the options he presented was your opinion.

2. Bolded a part for emphasis. The problem here is that the spell in question is Heightened.

Either way, if you think that that way does not work, have you got any way that does work? Otherwise we're not getting any further.

[Qwertystop]

Well, obviously nobody's convincing anybody of anything here, so let's agree to disagree and drop the argument. How does that sound to you?

I agree.

Incidentally, I fall in the group that believes it does work, but as noparlpf said, let's just drop it.

[Baroncognito]

Originally I didn't quite get how it worked even with the feats outlined, so lemme try again:
- Magical Training to get cantrips.
- Then they count as 1st-level spells outside your sanctum due to Sanctum Spell I presume,
- which allows you to use them for Precocious Apprentice.
- Apply Sanctum Spell to the spells gained through Precocious Apprentice, making them count as level 3 spells.
- Due to Earth Spell the spell counts as level 4.
- Extra Slot gets you level 3 slots now.
- Heighten a level 2 spell to level 3 and make it a Sanctum spell.
- It counts as a level 4 spell outside your Sanctum,
- but due to Earth Spell's effect its effective level becomes 5.
- Extra Slot gets you level 4 slots now.
- Etcetera.

Is that right?

Okay, at first level you take Magical Training (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-1834-magical-training.html) (to get access to a school of magic), you take Practiced Spellcaster (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-2231-practiced-spellcaster.html) (to get arcane caster level 1 (and eventually 4)), and you take Precocious Apprentice (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-2236-precocious-apprentice.html).

Except... none of those three feats is a combat feat, so you can't take all three.

So, choose two. If you drop Magical Training, you don't get access to a school of magic, so Precocious Apprentice gets you nothing. You cannot choose a spell from a school of magic you have access to without a school of magic you have access to.

If you drop Practiced Spellcaster, you don't meet the prerequisites for Precocious Apprentice. Magical Training treats you as if your arcane caster level was 1 when casting one of those three cantrips, but it doesn't actually give you an arcane caster level of 1.

If you drop Precocious Apprentice, you can never take it.

Let's assume you've got a lenient DM. She decided that treating your arcane caster level as 1 for the purpose of casting those three cantrips counts to qualify you for Precocious Apprentice.

Requirements: Int 15, Spellcraft 4, human, (Con 13, Wis 13 for Earth Spell)
Level 1: Magical Training, Precocious Apprentice, combat feat
Level 2: combat feat
Level 3: Practiced Spellcaster
Level 4: combat feat
Level 6: Heighten Spell, combat feat
Level 8: combat feat
Level 9: Earth Sense
Level 10: combat feat
Level 12: Earth Spell, combat feat
Level 14: combat feat
Level 15: Sanctum Spell
Level 16: combat feat
Level 18: Extra Slot

Now... the problem is that we can't use Heighten Spell on the cantrip to cast it using the 2nd level spell slot from Precocious Apprentice, that slot can only be used to prepare the chosen spell.

So we use Sanctum Spell on the chosen spell, this increases the effective spell level by 1, so it is treated as a Third Level Spell. If the DM is counts that as being able to cast Third level spells, the extra slot you get from extra slot will be a second level slot.

Now you have an empty second level slot that you can use for a heightened cantrip (and I'd argue that your Precocious Apprentice slot can be used for any spell now that you have another second level spell slot)

Level 20: combat feat

So, 20 levels of fighter won't do it.

Level 21: Extra Slot

Okay, this time, if your DM allows it, heighten spell takes your cantrip to level 2, Earth Spell takes it to level 3, and sanctum spell takes it to level 4, so Extra Slot gets you a 3rd level spell slot.

Level 22: combat feat
Level 24: Extra Slot, combat feat

Heighten to 3, Earth spell to 4, sanctum to 5, gets a 4th level spell slot.

Level 26: combat feat
Level 27: Extra Slot

Heighten to 4, Earth spell to 5, sanctum to 6, gets a 5th level spell slot.

And by this pattern, you'll get a 9th level spell slot at level 39.

I'm sure it'd go much faster if you could take general feats as fighter bonus feats. It'd go slightly faster if you could take metamagic feats as fighter bonus feats, but I didn't see any feats that allowed you to do either of those.

[Qwertystop]

Okay, at first level you take Magical Training (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-1834-magical-training.html) (to get access to a school of magic), you take Practiced Spellcaster (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-2231-practiced-spellcaster.html) (to get arcane caster level 1 (and eventually 4)), and you take Precocious Apprentice (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-2236-precocious-apprentice.html).

Except... none of those three feats is a combat feat, so you can't take all three.

So, choose two. If you drop Magical Training, you don't get access to a school of magic, so Precocious Apprentice gets you nothing. You cannot choose a spell from a school of magic you have access to without a school of magic you have access to.

If you drop Practiced Spellcaster, you don't meet the prerequisites for Precocious Apprentice. Magical Training treats you as if your arcane caster level was 1 when casting one of those three cantrips, but it doesn't actually give you an arcane caster level of 1.

If you drop Precocious Apprentice, you can never take it.

Let's assume you've got a lenient DM. She decided that treating your arcane caster level as 1 for the purpose of casting those three cantrips counts to qualify you for Precocious Apprentice.

Requirements: Int 15, Spellcraft 4, human, (Con 13, Wis 13 for Earth Spell)
Level 1: Magical Training, Precocious Apprentice, combat feat
Level 2: combat feat
Level 3: Practiced Spellcaster
Level 4: combat feat
Level 6: Heighten Spell, combat feat
Level 8: combat feat
Level 9: Earth Sense
Level 10: combat feat
Level 12: Earth Spell, combat feat
Level 14: combat feat
Level 15: Sanctum Spell
Level 16: combat feat
Level 18: Extra Slot

Now... the problem is that we can't use Heighten Spell on the cantrip to cast it using the 2nd level spell slot from Precocious Apprentice, that slot can only be used to prepare the chosen spell.

So we use Sanctum Spell on the chosen spell, this increases the effective spell level by 1, so it is treated as a Third Level Spell. If the DM is counts that as being able to cast Third level spells, the extra slot you get from extra slot will be a second level slot.

Now you have an empty second level slot that you can use for a heightened cantrip (and I'd argue that your Precocious Apprentice slot can be used for any spell now that you have another second level spell slot)

Level 20: combat feat

So, 20 levels of fighter won't do it.

Level 21: Extra Slot

Okay, this time, if your DM allows it, heighten spell takes your cantrip to level 2, Earth Spell takes it to level 3, and sanctum spell takes it to level 4, so Extra Slot gets you a 3rd level spell slot.

Level 22: combat feat
Level 24: Extra Slot, combat feat

Heighten to 3, Earth spell to 4, sanctum to 5, gets a 4th level spell slot.

Level 26: combat feat
Level 27: Extra Slot

Heighten to 4, Earth spell to 5, sanctum to 6, gets a 5th level spell slot.

And by this pattern, you'll get a 9th level spell slot at level 39.

I'm sure it'd go much faster if you could take general feats as fighter bonus feats. It'd go slightly faster if you could take metamagic feats as fighter bonus feats, but I didn't see any feats that allowed you to do either of those.

Take 2 flaws for 2 more feats at first level. That pushes the required level back by 6, if I'm working it out correctly.

[Baroncognito]

And it nicely solves my "Three required feats at first level" problem.

[dextercorvia]

Which magazine is this? I couldn't find it easily with Google.

#305


Okay, at first level you take Magical Training (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-1834-magical-training.html) (to get access to a school of magic), you take Practiced Spellcaster (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-2231-practiced-spellcaster.html) (to get arcane caster level 1 (and eventually 4)), and you take Precocious Apprentice (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-2236-precocious-apprentice.html).

Except... none of those three feats is a combat feat, so you can't take all three.

So, choose two. If you drop Magical Training, you don't get access to a school of magic, so Precocious Apprentice gets you nothing. You cannot choose a spell from a school of magic you have access to without a school of magic you have access to.

If you drop Practiced Spellcaster, you don't meet the prerequisites for Precocious Apprentice. Magical Training treats you as if your arcane caster level was 1 when casting one of those three cantrips, but it doesn't actually give you an arcane caster level of 1.

If you drop Precocious Apprentice, you can never take it.




You don't need Precocious Apprentice. As I said above, you can start the piggy back process with just Magical Training, Heighten, Earth Spell, Sanctum Spell, and Improved Sigil (Krau). Of those only Magical Training is 1st level only. Furthermore, Practiced Spellcaster does not help you, because you don't belong to a spellcasting class. You have to raise your CL another way. I recommend Bead of Karma for starters.

[Morph Bark]

You don't need Precocious Apprentice. As I said above, you can start the piggy back process with just Magical Training, Heighten, Earth Spell, Sanctum Spell, and Improved Sigil (Krau). Of those only Magical Training is 1st level only. Furthermore, Practiced Spellcaster does not help you, because you don't belong to a spellcasting class. You have to raise your CL another way. I recommend Bead of Karma for starters.

And if I got it right, you don't even need Improved Sigil (Krau) all that bad, but it helps speed it up.

If you don't want to spend tons of stuff raising CL, you could otherwise just choose non-CL-dependant spells. Or take Cooperative Spell and cast together with other Fighters for massive caster levels/DCs. :smalltongue:

[Baroncognito]

Furthermore, Practiced Spellcaster does not help you, because you don't belong to a spellcasting class.

It doesn't require that you belong to a spellcasting class, it requires that you posses a spellcasting class, which you do. You chose to cast as a wizard or as a sorcerer. You don't possess levels as a wizard or a sorcerer, but doesn't say it requires levels.

[Morph Bark]

It doesn't require that you belong to a spellcasting class, it requires that you posses a spellcasting class, which you do. You chose to cast as a wizard or as a sorcerer. You don't possess levels as a wizard or a sorcerer, but doesn't say it requires levels.

"You belong to a spellcasting class" is the same as "you possess a spellcasting class".

You're thinking of "you possess casting as a spellcasting class", which is just a bit different.

It also proves to be a problem when Magical Training, where your casting is derived from, doesn't give you casting as any spellcasting class. It just gives you a few cantrips that you can each cast 1/day.

[Baroncognito]

And if I got it right, you don't even need Improved Sigil (Krau) all that bad, but it helps speed it up.

If you don't want to spend tons of stuff raising CL, you could otherwise just choose non-CL-dependant spells. Or take Cooperative Spell and cast together with other Fighters for massive caster levels/DCs. :smalltongue:

You don't have it right, you need Improved Sigil, you don't need Earth Spell.

With his method:

Start with a zero level spell, Improved Sigil (Krau) makes it first level, Sanctum Spell makes it second level, Extra Slot gives you a first level spell slot.

Start with a zero level spell, heighten it to first level, Improved Sigil (Krau) makes it second level, Sanctum Spell makes it third level, Extra Slot gives you a second level spell. Repeat.

So, with his build:

Illumian (human)
Level 1: Magical Training, Improved Sigil (Krau)
Level 3: Heighten Spell
Level 6: Sanctum Spell
Level 9: Extra Slot

This is much faster.

However, I don't see how a bead that gives you +4 to caster level for 10 minutes allows you to meet the requirements for a feat. I mean, casting Bear's Endurance on someone doesn't allow them to take Toughness if they normally have a constitution of 10.

[Baroncognito]

"You belong to a spellcasting class" is the same as "you possess a spellcasting class".

You're thinking of "you possess casting as a spellcasting class", which is just a bit different.

It also proves to be a problem when Magical Training, where your casting is derived from, doesn't give you casting as any spellcasting class. It just gives you a few cantrips that you can each cast 1/day.


You can cast three 0-level arcane spells per day as either a sorcerer or wizard (your choice, so long as you have a score of at least 10 in the ability that controls the spellcasting for that class).

I cast spells as a sorcerer, or I cast spells as a wizard. I possess a spellcasting class. When I cast spells, I cast as a certain class.

[Morph Bark]

However, I don't see how a bead that gives you +4 to caster level for 10 minutes allows you to meet the requirements for a feat. I mean, casting Bear's Endurance on someone doesn't allow them to take Toughness if they normally have a constitution of 10.

Actually, it does allow them to do so. Feats don't care how you meet the prerequisites. The problem is that Bear's Endurance only lasts a little while, which won't be long enough to get Toughness (other than through casting Heroics) and even if you get it it won't last long (only as long as Bear's Endurance).

[dextercorvia]

It doesn't require that you belong to a spellcasting class, it requires that you posses a spellcasting class, which you do. You chose to cast as a wizard or as a sorcerer. You don't possess levels as a wizard or a sorcerer, but doesn't say it requires levels.

You can take the feat, but you can't benefit from it. You may cast as a Wizard or Sorcerer, but you don't actually possess class (levels).


@Morph: You don't need Improved Krau, but it dramatically increases the rate that you get to nines. Counting the feat for Improved Sigil Krau -- you reach 9s 6 feats after the [Magical Training, Heighten Spell, Sanctum Spell, Earth Sense, Earth Spell] ground work is laid, rather than 9 feats later.

Being a Krau Illumian also helps with bumping CL.

[Zeta Kai]

I think that this is an amusing theoretical exercise, but I'm with Candycorn on this one. It doesn't work well enough to allow it at my table (which is ultimately what counts), except as a one-off. A player choosing a Fighter should stick to non-caster options, & I would not allow them to bend the rules far enough to let this fly. Sorry to be a party-pooper, but this is one party that deserves pooping on. :smallwink:

[dextercorvia]

However, I don't see how a bead that gives you +4 to caster level for 10 minutes allows you to meet the requirements for a feat. I mean, casting Bear's Endurance on someone doesn't allow them to take Toughness if they normally have a constitution of 10.

You aren't using it to qualify -- since you don't want to lose the benefit of the feat. You are using it to raise CL after the fact.

To qualify, you are looking for things like +3 from Enhanced Power Sigil Krau on top of your 1 from Magical Training. Or, to skip a feat, just 1 +2(Krau) +1(Ring of Arcane Might)

[dextercorvia]

I think that this is an amusing theoretical exercise, but I'm with Canycorn on this one. It doesn't well enough to allow it at my table (which is ultimately what counts), except as a one-off. A player choosing a Fighter should stick to non-caster options, & I would not allow them to bend the rules far enough to let this fly. Sorry to be a party-pooper, but this is one party that deserves pooping on. :smallwink:

No one is claiming this should work at a table. But, the RAW isn't even shaky.

[Baroncognito]

When cast by a 10th level cleric, it lasts just as long as the bead would.

In Pathfinder, at least, yes, if you have a strength of 12 and you put on a +2 belt of strength, after 24 hours, it counts as a permanent buff and you can count your strength of 14 for qualifying for feats, but less than 24 hours and it won't be counted when trying to meet prerequisites. I'll admit that I'm not sure if things work that way in 3.5, but if I were DM, I wouldn't allow it.

[Morph Bark]

I think that this is an amusing theoretical exercise, but I'm with Canycorn on this one. It doesn't well enough to allow it at my table (which is ultimately what counts), except as a one-off. A player choosing a Fighter should stick to non-caster options, & I would not allow them to bend the rules far enough to let this fly.

You're a third party that I agree with in the sense that I would not allow this in any serious game. The way the feats are, it works, but there are other things that work that just should not be used in DnD play (well, in general, I'd say this would be better to use than playing Pun-Pun, an Omniscificer, Cheater of Mystra, Twice-Betrayer of Sharn and all the other big names thrown around occassionally).

Of course, this is all just theoretical exercise, and the only way I'd be using it would be as an NPC. COMMONER, ho!

[Baroncognito]

You can take the feat, but you can't benefit from it. You may cast as a Wizard or Sorcerer, but you don't actually possess class (levels).


@Morph: You don't need Improved Krau, but it dramatically increases the rate that you get to nines. Counting the feat for Improved Sigil Krau -- you reach 9s 6 feats after the [Magical Training, Heighten Spell, Sanctum Spell, Earth Sense, Earth Spell] ground work is laid, rather than 9 feats later.

Being a Krau Illumian also helps with bumping CL.

If your caster level when casting certain spells counts for determining caster level for taking feats, then


Thereafter, you have an arcane spell failure chance if you wear armor and are treated as a sorcerer or wizard of your arcane spellcaster level (minimum 1st) for the purpose of determining level-based variables of the spells you cast.

I am treated as a first level wizard at a minimum.

[Tanuki Tales]

No one is claiming this should work at a table. But, the RAW isn't even shaky.

This.

It's a RAW discussion with RAI or RAIWT (I'm using RAIWT because I can't remember the proper term :smallredface:) trying to kind of butt in here and there from certain folks.

[dextercorvia]

If your caster level when casting certain spells counts for determining caster level for taking feats, then



I am treated as a first level wizard at a minimum.

You are correct. The error was in my memory. The feat actually grants you the ability to 'belong' to the class. Practiced Spellcaster does work, which is good -- that is a nice bump to CL.

[noparlpf]

Cool, thanks.


As for Practiced Spellcaster, it's unnecessary anyway. Magical Training gives you a caster level with a minimum of 1. Even without any spellcasting levels you have a caster level of 1.

[Baroncognito]

With the Pathfinder version of Dragon Disciple on my mind, I thought it would be interesting to use this to make a Pure fighter to class into Dragon Disciple, after all, you only need to be able to spontaneously cast a first level spell, which would be doable without any tweaking of the rules:

Magical Training for the ability to spontaneously cast cantrips
Precocious Apprentice to get a second level spell
Practiced Spellcaster to get caster level 4
which opens up Extra Slot and Extra spell, which, thanks to Precocious Apprentice, we get both as first level slot and spell without any trickery.

And, it'd be really cool with the Pathfinder version, because you'd gain spells as if you had gained a level or sorcerer.

But after looking at the 3.5 edition:
Well, the good part is that the only feat a fighter would need to get access is Magical Training.
The bad part is that you'd only get extra castings of the two cantrips you had.

[dextercorvia]

Cool, thanks.


As for Practiced Spellcaster, it's unnecessary anyway. Magical Training gives you a caster level with a minimum of 1. Even without any spellcasting levels you have a caster level of 1.

You need CL 4 to be able to take Extra Slot.

[Zeta Kai]

Of course, this is all just theoretical exercise, and the only way I'd be using it would be as an NPC. COMMONER, ho!

I'd let a player do this at the table IF they chose to play a straight (no multi-classing) Commoner, & squared the plan with me from the get-go. It would interesting to see if that build could out-perform a straight Truenamer.

[Morph Bark]

I'd let a player do this at the table IF they chose to play a straight (no multi-classing) Commoner, & squared the plan with me from the get-go. It would interesting to see if that build could out-perform a straight Truenamer.

At levels prior to getting higher-level spell slots (3+), the Truenamer would likely do better due to at-will-ness. At level 20, gate will solve everything...


Are there ways to get higher-level psionic powers as well in such a way? Assuming Hidden Talent is allowed of course.

[Tyndmyr]

I outlined the basics in your commoner challenge. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8753936&postcount=35)

Essentially, you use Magical Training to get spellcasting, and then use some of the heighten like effects to count them as higher level, and then take Extra Slot a few times as well as some way of getting spells known -- I'd use Mother Cyst, or a Bloodline feat for starters.

Alternatively, you can play a Naenhoon Illumian with Planar Touchstone: Catalogs of Enlightenment (Sun Domain from DLCS), for Turn Undead, Earth Spell (and its prereqs), Extra Turning, to jump straight to 9th level slots from your first Extra Slot.

Magical Training is an SLA, right? And SLA doesn't fulfill the prereq for Extra Slot by a strict reading, correct?

[Darrin]

Magical Training is an SLA, right? And SLA doesn't fulfill the prereq for Extra Slot by a strict reading, correct?

Nope, not SLAs. Near as can be determined, they appear to be actual 0-level spell slots.