Two Weapon Fighting feats

[Obahai]

I'm trying to find all of the necessary feats for a 10th lvl dwarf fighter, to be able to use 2 dwarves war axes. Other than the feats listed in the PhB, what other feats should i focus on?

[Mockingbird]

Multiattack.

I'm not sure if it's natural attacks only or with weapons, too, but since I focus on natural attacks, it really helps me.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Multiattack.

I'm not sure if it's natural attacks only or with weapons, too, but since I focus on natural attacks, it really helps me.

Natural attacks play by different rules.

[Urpriest]

For two Dwarven Waraxes you'll need Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (Complete Adventurer) to not take pretty substantial penalties. Even then, damagewise it's not really worth it. You're sacrificing accuracy for damage, but you could already do that with Power Attack and Power Attack gives a better trade. What's your motivation for wielding two Dwarven Waraxes, if I may inquire?

[skycycle blues]

You could also move into the Tempest PrC from Complete Adventurer. It reduces the penalties for TWF. Although it isn't a very good class, as TWF in general isn't very good. I wish it was. It is very cool.

[gallagher]

i do not recall where, but there are feats, i think called dual strike and two weapon attack of opportunity, which let you attack with both weapons as a standard action and attack with both on an AoO, respectively.

Standard ToB plug, take martial study and martial stance. and while we are on the subject, have you thought of going warblade instead?

also consider dipping barbarian for some rage goodness

[suhkkaet]

CW has improved and greater TW-defence and Pin Shield,
PHBII there's TW-Rend, TW-Pounce,
CA has Dual Strike, and Oversized TWF (which you need to reduce ridiculus penalties)

Might I add that TWF is best if you get to have more damage per hit? Such as Sneak Attack.
This is an older article that goes through it, but it's still pretty good/relevant for TWF; Analysis of Attacking with Two Weapons (http://homepage.mac.com/guyf/DnD/AttackingWithTwoWeapons.html).

Edit;
Also, since you're a Dwarf, take a quick look at the Exotic Weapon Master PrC (CW).

[Gwendol]

Other than oversized TWF it depends on what the fighter wants to do.

[Darrin]

I'm trying to find all of the necessary feats for a 10th lvl dwarf fighter, to be able to use 2 dwarves war axes. Other than the feats listed in the PhB, what other feats should i focus on?

"Fighter 20" Feats:
1) TWF, Oversize TWF (Complete Adventurer)
2) Power Attack
3) Travel Devotion* (Complete Champion)
4) Combat Reflexes
6) Improved TWF, Double Hit* (Miniatures Handbook)
8) Weapon Focus: Dwarven Waraxe
9) Weapon Specialization: Dwarven Waraxe
10) Melee Weapon Mastery: Slashing (PHBII)
12) Robilar's Gambit*, Two-Weapon Rend (PHBII)
14) Slashing Flurry (PHBII)
15) Greater Weapon Focus: Dwarven Waraxe
16) Greater Weapon Specialization: Dwarven Waraxe
18) Weapon Supremacy (PHBII), Skill Focus: Basketweaving

Note: You may get a lot of criticism and sneering if you go this route, particularly around these boards, because it's "poor optimization" and a lot of those feats are considered to be very weak choices. The Weapon Focus/Specialization line of feats in particular are particularly lousy, considering you get very little payout from them, generally only a +1 or +2 bonus somewhere. TWF is generally considered to be inferior to two-handed weapons, because it requires so many feats and can't keep up with the damage output of Leap Attack/Shock Trooper/Valorous/etc. However, if you're going Fighter 20, you've got feats to burn, so you might as well get the whole Melee Weapon Mastery/Weapon Supremacy shebang and see how it goes.

If you want a slightly more optimized fighter, then I'd recommend skipping the Weapon Focus/Specialization/Melee Weapon Mastery/Supremacy stuff and focusing more on mobility (getting Pounce, taking Travel Devotion 3-4 times) and status effects (Tripping/Knockdown, Staggering Strike, Wounding weapons, Torturous weapons, Fear/Intimidation/Frightful Presence effects, etc.). This would probably involve dipping outside of Fighter to pick up things like Pounce, Sneak Attack, and so on.

If Tome of Battle is available, then take Warblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) 10 and forget I even mentioned the F-word, does not exist, la-la-la-la-la....

[Cog]

You're sacrificing accuracy for damage, but you could already do that with Power Attack and Power Attack gives a better trade.

Also, since you're a Dwarf, take a quick look at the Exotic Weapon Master PrC (CW).
That PrC actually solves the first problem entirely. One of the abilities lets you A) get 2x Strength when holding a one-handed weapon in two hands, or B) get two-handed Power Attack returns even when holding it in one hand. You still get the to-hit penalties and have the weapon cost issues of TWF, admittedly.

Dwarf Fighter has racial sub levels in Races of Stone. The first of them gets you weapon focus with all axes and starts you off with a d12 HD, but it's the only one that really does much of anything for you, I think.

[Urpriest]

That PrC actually solves the first problem entirely. One of the abilities lets you A) get 2x Strength when holding a one-handed weapon in two hands, or B) get two-handed Power Attack returns even when holding it in one hand. You still get the to-hit penalties and have the weapon cost issues of TWF, admittedly.


Both of those abilities only work when wielding the weapon in two hands, which rather defeats the purpose.

[Keld Denar]

Uncanny Blow gives you 2 different abilities.

First, if you are holding a 1 handed exotic in both hands, you get 2x your Str bonus, instead of the normal 1.5x. This won't benefit him.

Second, if you are wielding an exotic 1 handed weapon, you can get 2:1 Power Attack.

Since you NORMALLY get 2:1 PA from holding a 2handed weapon, you wouldn't gain any bonus. If you hold it in one hand, however, you still get 2:1.

[Urpriest]

Uncanny Blow gives you 2 different abilities.

First, if you are holding a 1 handed exotic in both hands, you get 2x your Str bonus, instead of the normal 1.5x. This won't benefit him.

Second, if you are wielding an exotic 1 handed weapon, you can get 2:1 Power Attack.

Since you NORMALLY get 2:1 PA from holding a 2handed weapon, you wouldn't gain any bonus. If you hold it in one hand, however, you still get 2:1.

Is there errata? I can't see any reason why the "when wielding a one-handed exotic weapon in two hands" clause doesn't apply to the whole paragraph. Yes it grants you an ability that you already had, but it certainly seems plausible that the writers thought that PA returns were based on the handedness of the weapon and not how it is wielded. They've made more serious mistakes.

[Cog]

It's hard to even call Uncanny Blow's description a paragraph. It's merely two sentences with nothing that seems to be introductory material for the entire ability; each just reads like a self-contained benefit to me.

[Keld Denar]

There is a "paragraph" break, there, IIRC. That would change how you read it, I think. At least thats the reading I remember reading. Do a google search, this very fact is something that's been debated in the past MANY times. You could get both sides pretty quickly.

[Provengreil]

Also, since you're a Dwarf, take a quick look at the Exotic Weapon Master PrC (CW).




Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.


doesn't this disqualify them, since they don't actually have proficiency, but instead treat the weapon as martial?(you could, of course, just eat the feat cost and take it anyway)

that said, there may actually be something to the weapon focus/specialization lines here. since you're wielding the same weapon, and mounting up the hits (in theory), the +2 damage would get a lot more use and the hit bonuses could offset the attack penalties of dual wielding. not a normal course, but this isn't a "normal" character.

[Hiro Protagonest]

doesn't this disqualify them, since they don't actually have proficiency, but instead treat the weapon as martial?(you could, of course, just eat the feat cost and take it anyway)

By RAW, maybe, but I'd punch out the DM if he made that restriction. Or show him the true power of RAW.

And besides, it's only MAYBE.

Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.

[FlyingScanian]

doesn't this disqualify them, since they don't actually have proficiency, but instead treat the weapon as martial?(you could, of course, just eat the feat cost and take it anyway)

I actually went and checked, and dwarves still qualify for it (as do gnomes with their crazy hammers etc). The explaining example even mentions dwarves...

As for Power Attack and Uncanny Blow... it can go either way. Ask your DM is probably the recommended way (unless someone finds an errata).

[Darrin]

By RAW, maybe, but I'd punch out the DM if he made that restriction.

By RAW, weapon familiarity counts. From the Exotic Weapon Master requirements:

"Special: Races that have familiarity with an exotic weapon (such as the dwarf’s familiarity with the dwarven waraxe and the dwarven urgrosh) are considered to have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat for the purpose of meeting the requirements for this class."

[Provengreil]

thanks for clarifying, i don't have that book so i couldn't check it myself.

[Obahai]

For two Dwarven Waraxes you'll need Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (Complete Adventurer) to not take pretty substantial penalties. Even then, damagewise it's not really worth it. You're sacrificing accuracy for damage, but you could already do that with Power Attack and Power Attack gives a better trade. What's your motivation for wielding two Dwarven Waraxes, if I may inquire?



I'm always seen as "that power gamer" and I'm trying to not go too overboard with this one. For example my last character was a warlock who had vitriolic blast, earlier than possible b/c of Complete Mage.

I don't think anyone mentioned this yet, but my DM does allow mithral weapons to be one size category lighter, with less durability, but I'm trying to not go that route just yet

[Gavinfoxx]

Vitriolic Blast is powergaming?

...

Wow, your group sets the bar really low for 'powergaming'. Yea, go ahead, just build a fighter using suboptimal tactics like two weapon fighting with the aforementioned build...

[JaronK]

Mobility will be a big issue for you, since you need to full attack to do anything useful. A dip into Barbarian would give you pounce, and pouncing charge is available from some Warblade levels if that would fit your character. Also consider Zhentarium Fighter substitutions, which grant potent intimidate bonuses (including swift action intimidation, which is amazing with Imperious Command). If being mounted wouldn't be "undwarfy" consider doing so, as it would boost mobility even further.

JaronK

[hex0]

Dwarf Fighter has racial sub levels in Races of Stone. The first of them gets you weapon focus with all axes and starts you off with a d12 HD, but it's the only one that really does much of anything for you, I think.

If you take that sub level you could do a Waraxe and a Handaxe (or throwing axe) in your offhand. Not too bad. Weapon Focus for both gives you a little penalty reduction, at least.

[Urpriest]

I'm always seen as "that power gamer" and I'm trying to not go too overboard with this one. For example my last character was a warlock who had vitriolic blast, earlier than possible b/c of Complete Mage.

I don't think anyone mentioned this yet, but my DM does allow mithral weapons to be one size category lighter, with less durability, but I'm trying to not go that route just yet

This is unlikely to help then. What you need is not a build that is weak, but one that looks weak, and many inexperienced players will think of TWF with very big weapons as strong and munchkiny.

[Gavinfoxx]

This is unlikely to help then. What you need is not a build that is weak, but one that looks weak, and many inexperienced players will think of TWF with very big weapons as strong and munchkiny.

^THIS^

You have to go for the appearance of not doing munchkiny things... whether or not by the math, you are or not...

[Elric VIII]

Play a Gnome Barbarian/Fighter charger with Shock Trooper, Leap attack ans a 2-handed valorous weapon. When you one-shot everything just mention how you are a weak little Gnome. Completely inconspicuous. :smallcool:


Seriously, though...
Maybe a few levels in Rogue. By taking 4 levels you only get -1 BAB (compared to 4 more levels of Fighter), 2d6 SA, along with Uncanny Dodge and Evasion. Plus, this will let you have a few extra skill points for EWM prerequisites without having to invest in Int.

I would also definately second the recommendation to take either Travel Devotion or Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian for pounce.

[Keld Denar]

If you don't want to be too conspicuous, I'd avoid Oversized TWF. Go with a nice safe Bard. Amp up your Inspire Courage, and you'll do more damage than anyone else in the party, only vicariously through the weapons of others. Don't go too all out (no Words of Creation), but get a few of the staples to get the +4 IC, and the damage will stack up.

[Elric VIII]

If you don't want to be too conspicuous, I'd avoid Oversized TWF. Go with a nice safe Bard. Amp up your Inspire Courage, and you'll do more damage than anyone else in the party, only vicariously through the weapons of others. Don't go too all out (no Words of Creation), but get a few of the staples to get the +4 IC, and the damage will stack up.

Can a Bard TWF with Snowflake Wardance?

Because a Dwarven Bard/Warchanter, with Perform (Oratory) would be pretty cool. Just imagine him chanting in dwarven, inspiring allies and striking fear into the hearts of his enemies, while cutting them to ribbons with his twin battleaxes.

[Keld Denar]

Thats...a matter of contention. SFWD uses singular verbage, and whether or not that could be extrapolated to singular in each hand (as opposed to a 2hander in both hands).

You could do like, Bard4/Fighter2/Warchanter10. 15/16 BAB, all the Warchanter goodies, qualifies for Songs of the Heart, has Combine Songs so you could twist Inspire Courage together with Inspire Legion. Has the bonus feats you need to get your TWFing game going, especially if you change up the order you take the classes. Might be kinda a slow start, I'd recommend putting a Bard level first to get the tasty skill points, but that leaves you without Waraxe proficiency until level 2 at least, which may not be "fun" for your concept.