E6 Tier List?

[Wyntonian]

It's a given that throughout 1-20 level play, under the majority of circumstances, certain classes, such as the "Big 5" (sorcerer, cleric, wizard, druid and something I'm forgetting), will come to be one of the most important factors in play, if not completely dominate it.

However, one of my favorite ways to play is the E6 variant. My question to the playground is how use of the E6 variant affects the comparative balance that is represented in their tier list? Clearly wizards have less game-shattering potential, and melee is not exactly obsolete this point.

Your thoughts?

[Curious]

Tier 1- Kobold Sorcerors, Mystic Wildshape Sword of the Arcane Order Rangers.

[Godskook]

The divide between the tiers diminishes, but the general tier list is still the same. The primary reason for this is that spells are simply that powerful. Simply picking the right level 1 spells makes you tons stronger than a worse tier, from level 1 onward. And feats make casters more ridiculous than they do mundanes.

Admittedly, certain classes, particularly cleric and druid, shine even brighter in E6, due to the rule-set favoring them in one way or another, while non-ACF fighter is now tier 6 with healer.

[Zaq]

For what it's worth, Sorcerers take a hit. Probably not enough to knock them all the way down to T3, but their fiercely limited number of spells known ends up being pretty painful.

Overall though, yeah, the tiers are pretty much the same. The tier list does account for most or all levels of play, after all, and E6 doesn't change the balance too much.

[Little Brother]

Ardent 1/S2P Disciplined Erudite 3/Cerebromancer 2=Tier 0.

Generally, a S2P Disciplined Erudite is the best as far as I can see. Super SAD, and LV 3 Powers and Wizard Spells. Beyond that, follow tiers as normal, with more durable being more valuable.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Tier 0 (should not be allowed in any game): Spellhoarding Kobold Loredrake (Stalwart Battle) Sorcerer (9th level Wizard spellcasting ability), Arcane Swordsage.

Tier 1 (unfairly strong, but barely permissible): Mystic Wild Shape Ranger.

Tier 2 (playable): Pretty much anything in the standard Tier 1-4 range, with maybe a few Tier 5's. Most characters that are well thought out will fall into this category.

Tier 3 (weak): The standard Tier 6's and most of the Tier 5's. If a player just picks a class and doesn't put any thought into the big picture, they'll probably be in this category regardless of class choice.

[Doug Lampert]

The divide between the tiers diminishes, but the general tier list is still the same. The primary reason for this is that spells are simply that powerful. Simply picking the right level 1 spells makes you tons stronger than a worse tier, from level 1 onward. And feats make casters more ridiculous than they do mundanes.

Admittedly, certain classes, particularly cleric and druid, shine even brighter in E6, due to the rule-set favoring them in one way or another, while non-ACF fighter is now tier 6 with healer.

The definitions change some, wizards at level 6 can't really break the game in multiple ways. (Tippyverse style reseting magical traps do still exist. But that's only 1 way.)

But level 6 is the first level the Druid can take Natural spell, he can't wildshape 24/7, but he's still a 3/4ths BAB class with decent HP and weapons in his natural form and he's still got a pet and he still casts spells. Definitely not all that much weaker than in core.

Level 6 cleric is still a cleric, good HP, good armor, decent melee, loads of spells. He can't DMM his level 4 and 5 self-buffs, but he can self buff and if he puts a 13 in Wisdom and pumps his physical abilities the buffs he has still make him more useful for mopping up than the fighter, and he can also cast spells (the 13 rather than 18 costs him 2 bonus slots, and that's it, he's not casting save dependent spells).

Wizards can't win the game by themselves at level 6, but there are still lots of spells that are very useful.

The "best" all core party of four to "win" D&D without infinite loops is still going to be something like Cleric, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.

DougL

[Hawk7915]

Yeah, my perception has been that, generally, the tiers are the same. Druid isn't quite as formidable a melee combatant (medium only creatures, although that means Fleshraker is still a go), Sorcerer takes a big hit, Clerics are slightly less 'zilla (no Divine Power, only +2/+2 from Divine Favor, and depending on DM possibly no DMM: Persist), but they're all still pretty strong. Only the sorcerer even really drops a tier in power.

Beguiler and most ToB classes get a boost in power, on the other side of things: Beguiler is like sorcerer but knows all the spells, and is one of the strongest casters in E6 as a result. You have tons of versatility, tons of spells/day, and you aren't yet at the level where the majority of foes are immune to your magic. As for ToB, at 6th level other melee have just barely gotten their first iterative and thus usually can't quite mass the firepower needed to out-dps a Tome of Battle class.

Still, these are minor shifts. Avoid obviously broken cheese, and E6s goal of having slightly less disparity between the strongest and weakest classes seems fairly well maintained.

[gorfnab]

Beguiler and most ToB classes get a boost in power, on the other side of things: Beguiler is like sorcerer but knows all the spells, and is one of the strongest casters in E6 as a result. You have tons of versatility, tons of spells/day, and you aren't yet at the level where the majority of foes are immune to your magic.
Beguiler 5/ Mage of the Arcane Order 1 is an awesome casting build for E6.

[Godskook]

The definitions change some, wizards at level 6 can't really break the game in multiple ways. (Tippyverse style reseting magical traps do still exist. But that's only 1 way.)

A chained empowered split CL 11 scorching ray is doable, even by wizards, in E6. And most other forms of +3 or less metamagic abuse as well. Higher ones would come online immediately if arcane thesis RAW was followed, but no sane DM would allow that.


But level 6 is the first level the Druid can take Natural spell, he can't wildshape 24/7, but he's still a 3/4ths BAB class with decent HP and weapons in his natural form and he's still got a pet and he still casts spells. Definitely not all that much weaker than in core.

Its E6 not level 6, so yeah, he most certainly can wildshape 24/7. He can even do it while having several wild feats up and running 24/7 as well.


Wizards can't win the game by themselves at level 6, but there are still lots of spells that are very useful.

Considering that at high-TO, wizards were winning encounters by themselves as early as level 1, what is it that changes in E6 to cripple them in your eyes?

[Yora]

Admittedly, certain classes, particularly cleric and druid, shine even brighter in E6, due to the rule-set favoring them in one way or another, while non-ACF fighter is now tier 6 with healer.
How is that? With more feats, a fighter becomes more versatile. And regardless of that pure melee characters are better in E6 than regular campaigns, since casters can't run on ahead so fast.

[Knaight]

How is that? With more feats, a fighter becomes more versatile. And regardless of that pure melee characters are better in E6 than regular campaigns, since casters can't run on ahead so fast.

Having more feats for everyone makes the whole "more feats" advantage turn irrelevant quickly. When everyone has 10 feats, is having 14 and no class features really advantageous?

[Godskook]

How is that? With more feats, a fighter becomes more versatile. And regardless of that pure melee characters are better in E6 than regular campaigns, since casters can't run on ahead so fast.

+4 feats is basically worthless in E6 compared to actually class features, when every other class is simply going to get the feats you've got eventually anyway. Other melee, like Monk and Paladin, enjoy a bit of a buff in this setting, but Fighter is basically nerfed out of play by the open-ended feat options.

[Big Fau]

Having more feats for everyone makes the whole "more feats" advantage turn irrelevant quickly. When everyone has 10 feats, is having 14 and no class features really advantageous.

Exactly. Feats are a strong testament to the "Quality, not Quantity" saying.

@OP: The Big 5 are Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Archivist, Artificer. It's commonly accepted that this is out of date, as the Convert Spell to Power variant Erudite is capable of replicating the abilities of every other Vanican spellcaster in the entire system in a way similar to the Artificer.

There's even a strong argument for the normal Erudite and the Spirit Shaman to be considered Tier 1, although in practice they fall in between Tier 1 and Tier 2.

And in E6, the Sword of the Arcane Order variant Ranger, coupled with the Wildshape variant Ranger, is considered to be Tier 1.

I've honestly never understood the E6 mindset: It doesn't balance the game, it just using a different set of scales to weigh everything.

[Godskook]

@OP: The Big 5 are Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Archivist, Artificer. It's commonly accepted that this is out of date, as the Convert Spell to Power variant Erudite is capable of replicating the abilities of every other Vanican spellcaster in the entire system in a way similar to the Artificer.

1.The big 5 are the big 5 cause they're that powerful out of the box while still being able to see play. Erudite is, in my experience, an exception, in that almost nobody I've heard off would allow that in their games.

2.I don't think it is out of date cause, other than the Erudite, there's not many classes contesting for tier 1, even now.


There's even a strong argument for the normal Erudite and the Spirit Shaman to be considered Tier 1, although in practice they fall in between Tier 1 and Tier 2.

1.Erudite is tier 1, on Jaronk's original list even.

2.Spirit Shamans are not listed, but there's a strong argument for them being tier 1s as well, and are the only spontaneous full casting base class to make the claim.


And in E6, the Sword of the Arcane Order variant Ranger, coupled with the Wildshape variant Ranger, is considered to be Tier 1.

Mystic Rangers maybe, but without that, low-power wildshape isn't enough to drag them out of tier 3, nor is 1st level spells.

And besides, Jaronk's list *IGNORES* almost all build specifics and tries to evaluate classes as close to a whole as possible.


I've honestly never understood the E6 mindset: It doesn't balance the game, it just using a different set of scales to weigh everything.

While its easy to break the game at level 20, with borken prestige classes and such, it is actually quite a bit more challenging to break the game at level 6.

In addition, the format offers a different feel to fighting the stronger monsters. Instead of steadily progressing past challenges, such that the Manticore you fought 3 months ago is now no longer a threat, in E6, for most of the campaign, monsters remain roughly just as powerful against you as they were when you first fought them. This allows for longer stories within the same settings without breaking versimilitude.

[Zonugal]

+4 feats is basically worthless in E6 compared to actually class features, when every other class is simply going to get the feats you've got eventually anyway. Other melee, like Monk and Paladin, enjoy a bit of a buff in this setting, but Fighter is basically nerfed out of play by the open-ended feat options.

Fighters can do somewhat okay in E6 when using alternate class features like Dungeoncrasher, Thug and Zhentarim substitution levels.

We can get rid of those four extra feats and instead get skills, intimidation and the ability to seriously wreck folks in tight quarters.

[Big Fau]

1.Erudite is tier 1, on Jaronk's original list even.

No it wasn't. I saw the original list back when it was on Gleemax, and he didn't even list the Erudite class until someone pointed it out. Even then, he originally listed it as Tier 2, and it stayed that way until the BG guys found out that the UPD mechanic wasn't nearly as bad as people thought it was, and that StP was absurdly overpowered.

[dextercorvia]

The definitions change some, wizards at level 6 can't really break the game in multiple ways. (Tippyverse style reseting magical traps do still exist. But that's only 1 way.)

Most T1 casters can gain access to extremely high level spells, and E6 has a feat that works better than extra slot, in that it grants an equal level slot to your highest.

Extra feats make metamagic mitigation, and CL boosting very feasible.

Even without breaking the (imagined) spell limits in E6 (they are never spelled out -- it is just assumed), Lesser Planar Ally is available from an E6 feat for a cleric and others so inclined (Arcane Disciple). That opens up the realm of Mirror Mephit Simulacrum abuse.

Some of the best 1st - 3rd level spells are Save or X, and there are many good ones. As mentioned, Scorching Ray is very efficient if you need damage, and full fledged fire immunity is rare at that level. Fell Draining Sonic Snap is still perfectly viable with the proper metamagic.

[Hazzardevil]

For everyone talking about the SotAO Ranger, they probably mean the mystic ranger. Which is basically Ranger with wizard casting up to level 5, SotAO just gives you full wizard casting with only 2 stats required.



For what it's worth, Sorcerers take a hit. Probably not enough to knock them all the way down to T3, but their fiercely limited number of spells known ends up being pretty painful.
Extra Spell from complete arcane would like to have a word with you.
Overall though, yeah, the tiers are pretty much the same. The tier list does account for most or all levels of play, after all, and E6 doesn't change the balance too much.

It changes it enough so that most tier 1 casters can't end encounters by themselves as much, but they can still do it.

[Godskook]

Fighters can do somewhat okay in E6 when using alternate class features like Dungeoncrasher, Thug and Zhentarim substitution levels.

We can get rid of those four extra feats and instead get skills, intimidation and the ability to seriously wreck folks in tight quarters.

You'll note that this tangent was talking about the ACF-less fighter, i.e., the one without those options.

[Connington]

I've honestly never understood the E6 mindset: It doesn't balance the game, it just using a different set of scales to weigh everything.

I think you're missing out on a large part of the E6 mindset by focusing on player vs player dynamics. There's also a huge player vs setting dynamic. Level six wizards are powerful, but they aren't demigods that can rewrite reality like their higher level cousins can. Standard D&D leveling can easily force you into a strict Sorting Algorithim of Evil, where the threats have to constantly increase in order to pose a challenge to the PCs.

[JaronK]

I've honestly never understood the E6 mindset: It doesn't balance the game, it just using a different set of scales to weigh everything.

The game was primarily playtested in the low levels (almost never above level 10, and mostly between 1-5). As such, up to level 6 really is a relatively balanced level range. Sure, you can still break the heck out of it (Loredrake Dragonwrought Kobold with Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, Arcane Thesis: Wings of Flurry, and a bunch of metamagic, whee! And Animate Dead for fun!) but in general you have to actually put a little effort into it to break it wide open (shut up, Druids don't exist, I'm not listening la la la). Basically, it's too level for most of the truly world shattering tricks to come online.

JaronK

[Little Brother]

Sorry, dumb question in regards to that: What do level 5 spells have that level fours don't?

[JaronK]

Sorry, dumb question in regards to that: What do level 5 spells have that level fours don't?

E6 has very limited access to even level 4s, which cuts out quite a lot. But IIRC this leaves out the Planar Binding line (cutting out most wish loops), most of the long term creation spells (like Fabricate), and so on. Meanwhile, at level 6 the Fighters and such at least have two attacks, while no one else does, so BAB really matters.

This is not to say that Wizards can't go nuts if they really want to. Heck, a Cleric is already able to make armies of the dead. It's just not so blatant, and doesn't tend to happen accidentally.

JaronK

[dextercorvia]

Sorry, dumb question in regards to that: What do level 5 spells have that level fours don't?

In addition to Lesser Planar Binding, there is also Teleport, Contact Other Plane, Magic Jar, and to a lesser extent Permanency and Break Enchantment.

I'm only looking at the Wizard list, but this is where stuff starts to get real. It's hard to have Scry and Die tactics without hard core divination, or a long range BAMF. Magic Jar opens up Commodore Guff shenanigans. Permanency and Break Enchantment are rather the pivot point between when Magic is something that happens to the PCs and when PCs really are Magicking everything else.

On the divine list, 5th level is the lowest level for return to life spells.

[ranagrande]

On the divine list, 5th level is the lowest level for return to life spells.

Not quite; Reincarnate is 4th level.

[sreservoir]

Not quite; Reincarnate is 4th level.

so returning to life is only available to epic characters, and even then they might come back wrong.

[dextercorvia]

Not quite; Reincarnate is 4th level.


so returning to life is only available to epic characters, and even then they might come back wrong.

My mistake. I should rather have said reliable return to life spells.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Sorry, dumb question in regards to that: What do level 5 spells have that level fours don't?

What others have said, plus Cloudkill.

Anyway, most casters become tier 2 without tricks that truly increase CL. Druid is the exception, and maybe StP erudite.

SR: yes spells become worse, since you may effectively reach level 20 with enough feats, but you still have only +6 to the check, +10 with Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration.

Monks become tier 5 (tier 4 with some ACF I don't know about that replaces bonus feats), fighters become tier 6, fighter ACFs that replace feats make it tier 4.

[dextercorvia]

What others have said, plus Cloudkill.

Anyway, most casters become tier 2 without tricks that truly increase CL. Druid is the exception, and maybe StP erudite.

SR: yes spells become worse, since you may effectively reach level 20 with enough feats, but you still have only +6 to the check, +10 with Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration.

Monks become tier 5 (tier 4 with some ACF I don't know about that replaces bonus feats), fighters become tier 6, fighter ACFs that replace feats make it tier 4.

I lingered over Cloudkill, because it is a good spell. But when it comes down to it, it is just another way to kill stuff. In that regard, it isn't any better for its level than the better 4th level kill stuf spells are at their level.

As far as SR goes, you will fight fewer enemies with high SR, and you have the feats to take things like Arcane Mastery, which help a great deal. There are many feats that increase your ability to overcome SR. In the E6 vs. Balor challenge, I was able to overcome its SR 28 without ever rolling.