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Balor01
2011-10-17, 01:44 AM
A while ago I was asking here about tenets of Bahamut and results were very helpful. (I used that material in my campaign).
Now I would ask playgrounders to give me some summarized info on what Nerull wants? I am thinking of his cult (of course) but I have no idea what these cultists would do.
- Would they destroy undead? (they are just animated dead, their souls are already departed)
- Would they hunt those who decide to extend their life beyond "what is given them", like liches? (but liches are usually also badass casters so ... I guess there could be A SMALL FEW cultists strong enough)
- Would they just want to murder as many sentient creatures as possible? (I also think not. Nerull knows, sooner or later, even gods will die, so he does not need to rush)

tltr: What does Nerull want, what should his cultist do to please him?

Elemental
2011-10-17, 04:25 AM
Well, If I'm reading Nerull's section in Deities and Demigods correctly, Nerull likes suffering. Especially seeing as he's the God of Murder, as well as Death, Darkness and the Underworld. As a result, his clerics commit murders as sacrifices, and are ready to leave town if they're discovered.

Calanon
2011-10-17, 04:42 AM
Well, If I'm reading Nerull's section in Deities and Demigods correctly, Nerull likes suffering. Especially seeing as he's the God of Murder, as well as Death, Darkness and the Underworld. As a result, his clerics commit murders as sacrifices, and are ready to leave town if they're discovered.

They could justify there actions by saying "We are simply quickening there journey to the underworld, to serve the great Nerull's purpose" or something... but a God of Death doesn't always want... umm... Death >_> You could view it as making there job a little easier by keeping people alive, slaying undead, and the such. Needing to justifying an Evil god is a new one for me :smalleek:

Balor01
2011-10-17, 07:22 AM
@Calanon
Why would they kill the undead? They are just mindless husks with souls departed.

Except maybe vampires?

And I am sort of streched between "they do not murder" and "they murder en masse" approach. I like first one more.

Sydonai
2011-10-17, 08:43 AM
Think about how a Healer views Undead, that is how Nerull views life. Nerull is not the God of "The Dead", he is the God of "Death", cruel, bloody, violent, murder. A living Nerull cultist is either insane, stupid, or nihilistic Becuase Nerull's only goal is the destruction of all living things as soon as possible.

Balor01
2011-10-17, 08:53 AM
@Sydonai
But Nerull is a god. He knows that if all life dies, death is over too. I see him not as one who thrives on un-life, but on death in process. In order to have death, you have to have living things. Thats why I think his cultists would not go around killing. Just preventing "unnatural" prolongement of life.

Tanuki Tales
2011-10-17, 09:07 AM
@Sydonai
But Nerull is a god. He knows that if all life dies, death is over too.

Except, as a god, he also knows that life probably won't ever truly be gone. It's a great Big Wheel out there.

flumphy
2011-10-17, 09:10 AM
Well, if you go by Deities & Demigods, it's pretty cut and dry.


....every living thing is an affront to the reaper, and every death brings a spark of joy to his long-dead heart.


Those that kill in his name shall be rewarded (or so Nerull promises.)


Nerull's clerics commit murders as offerings to their deity.


Most temples are stocked with undead creatures and others that spread or celebrate death....


So yeah, at least if you go by the default fluff, he's cool with undead, and his cultists really do go around killing when they can get away with it. Of course, given that people generally aren't okay with this except maybe in the most depraved of regions, Nerull's followers don't exactly worship openly.

Sydonai
2011-10-17, 09:12 AM
Yeah, Nerull explicitly wants to kill everything. His home plane is Carcera for crying out loud, if you lived there then you would want to kill everything to.

Hyudra
2011-10-17, 09:59 AM
I don't think, or particularly see why, Nerull would be so against undead. Undead generate more death.

One of Nerull's cults is the White Kingdom, which is affiliated with Doresain, the King of Ghouls, and is apparently the one who generates Drowned Ones.

I'd say Tenets would include:
They will go unquietly into the endless night -- Nerull's adherents murder. Mercy isn't a factor, and unpleasant deaths are stock in trade.

This is one of the most cut and dry parts of a Nerullite's faith. In a majority of instances, it would be blasphemy against Nerull to save the life of someone that is dying.

.
Death eternal -- Resurrection is a blasphemy against Nerull's portfolio. Favored targets of Nerull include clerics of other faiths who are capable of resurrection, and preventing the resurrection of a great hero or a lord might be a task a small cult cell sets for themselves, or one that they go to great lengths to prepare for (having a member of the cult infiltrate a temple of St. Cuthbert, for example).

.
We foster death / Stay your hand only when it sharpens the scythe. -- Nerull's followers aren't obligated to kill every living soul they encounter, but every time they don't, they're calculating why it makes more death possible. They will avoid killing if it means staying undetected, allowing for more murder at a later date. A blackguard follower of nerull might have a child because they can raise that child to be a consummate killer.

This tenet can serve as an excuse for a cleric of Nerull to violate pretty much any other tenet. It's ok to save a life, if you're posing as an initiate priest of Pelor and putting yourself in a position to end a hundred lives, for example. A cleric of Nerull might willingly allow herself to be resurrected if the killing she could bring into the world would outbalance the act of resurrection. By doing this, though, they put themselves into debt, as Faith goes, and obligate themselves to follow through. Failure to do so means a particularly unpleasant afterlife in Nerull's domain. Success means being one of Nerull's favored.

This tenet is a good half of the reason why a follower of Nerull wouldn't destroy undead, and why they have the Rebuke ability. (Most) Undead are simply tools to create more death. The other half of the reason, naturally, is that undead are already dead... so why bother with (re-) killing them?

Fact is, a follower of Nerull might seek to become undead so they can continue to kill well beyond the point they might have died.

.
Death is Inevitable -- This is a surprisingly complex idea, but there's two major aspects to it.

First, as a code for how a Nerull worshiper should act, it counsels patience, biding one's time for a particular event. A given individual is going to die... it's just a question of when. As such, a cleric of Nerull probably isn't going to walk into a village market and start murdering (That's more Erythnul's thing). Rather (especially in keeping with the above tenet) it would be better to figure out how and when to kill so it creates hysteria, fear, and suspicion. Rather than just indiscriminately murder in the market, a cleric might kill one person in a gruesome way so the entire village is pointing fingers, threatening one another and sleeping with knives under their pillows. A powder keg ready to blow at the slightest provocation (such as adventurers passing through town).

The second aspect of 'Death is Inevitable' is that priests of Nerull will strive to seek out and kill immortals. Undead don't matter, but someone who has found a way to gain eternal life, or living things that would never die under normal circumstances would be a major target for a Nerullite, in the same way a follower of Hextor would go out of their way to corrupt or kill paladins. A major task for a temple or particularly powerful clerics would be killing a god.

.
Death mastered. -- Followers of Nerull seek to master death. Not control or make undead, necessarily, but perfecting the technique of killing. Strangulation, poison, burning, stabbing, plague, impalement, etc.

This can go one of two ways, typically. The first is that a cleric of Nerull might take a particular method and perfect it, trying myriad permutations, crafting the tools by hand for that mote of deeper knowledge into how that tool works. They study and explore the psychology of what the victim experiences, perhaps write diaries or religious tracts on each murder with the chosen tool.

The second is that a cleric of Nerull might explore every possible method, seeking always to find new ways to bring death to the Prime Material.

MlleRouge
2011-10-17, 03:20 PM
@Calanon


And I am sort of streched between "they do not murder" and "they murder en masse" approach. I like first one more.

I'm currently running a game based on this interpretation.

By the books (and the second approach above), I think Hyudra has it spot-on. I honestly can't add much; Nerull doesn't place any value on life and isn't concerned with much aside from death. I've used a similar set of tenants for Nerullian cultists before, and with great success. I generally had his followers believing that flesh is flawed and life is temporary. Why not kill? Most people deserve it, and the ones who don't will be better off.

If you're interested in developing that first approach, though, there is good potential to use Nerull as a neural 'judge' type deity primarily concerned with balance. In the game I'm running, I'm focusing on a 'new' sect of Nerullians who follow tenants based around honoring the dead, providing death counselling for the living, and preserving the balance of life and death (destroying liches/vampires, preventing murders, etc). They spend their time tending to graveyards, preparing people for the transition to the other side, and perpetuating the idea that death is both natural and an adventure.

The forgotten realms deity Kelemvor is similar. I'm having a lot of fun with that particular interpretation, but but there's nothing wrong with the 'by the books' kill 'em all style, too. He IS the god of death, after all. Whatever works for the game you're running.

Hyudra
2011-10-17, 04:36 PM
I am sort of streched between "they do not murder" and "they murder en masse" approach. I like first one more.

Why not both? Or it differs depending on the cultist or cult.

I like using the serial killer differentiations to sort of mark out differences between clerics of different evil gods. There's the cold, calculating killer, methodical, dangerous because they can be so clever, so careful. Flawed in that they're prone to routine and patterns.

There's the killer who murders in sprees. They're dangerous because they're so unpredictable, you never know where or how they're going to strike. Their critical flaw is that they're prone to mistakes.

It's important to note that the former isn't necessarily smarter or better, just more about patterns and premeditation than impulse.

How do these guys fit into the D&D mold? Lawful Evil, Chaotic Evil. The spree killers are most fitting to Erythnul. Nerull's followers can be one or both types of killer (They're neutral, so they fit in the middle ground). Like I said, it just depends on the individual cultist or cell.

Balor01
2011-10-18, 02:30 AM
Since some people here are quite familiar with Nerull ... how would you improve death domain (spells lvl 1-5) ? If you would ...



Death Domain
Granted Power

You may use a death touch once per day. Your death touch is a supernatural ability that produces a death effect. You must succeed on a melee touch attack against a living creature (using the rules for touch spells). When you touch, roll 1d6 per cleric level you possess. If the total at least equals the creature’s current hit points, it dies (no save).
Death Domain Spells

Cause Fear: One creature of 5 HD or less flees for 1d4 rounds.
Death Knell: Kill dying creature and gain 1d8 temporary hp, +2 to Str, and +1 caster level.
Animate Dead M: Creates undead skeletons and zombies.
Death Ward: Grants immunity to death spells and negative energy effects.
Slay Living: Touch attack kills subject.

Trekkin
2011-10-19, 04:06 AM
Since some people here are quite familiar with Nerull ... how would you improve death domain (spells lvl 1-5) ? If you would ...

In what way does it seem to need improving? Those all seem like powers that Nerull would bestow on his faithful to me. I suppose perhaps you could make death touch consume turn attempts in the manner of a divine feat (each daily use after the first consumes N attempts) but that seems like change for the sake of change to me.

Balor01
2011-10-19, 04:52 AM
I find Death knell and Death Ward sort of lame. I think these clerics would need some more of a "kick".

Hyudra
2011-10-19, 08:32 AM
It's not one of the Uber domains, but it's not terribad either.

If I did anything, it would be saying Cause Fear affects foes of a CR of up to the Cultist's ECL -2. Just to keep it relevant.

Death Knell is sorta lame at first glance, but it's really a fairly easy way to give yourself +1 caster level, especially after you've stopped using 2nd level spells as much. Keep an animal or animals (such as stray cats, dogs) in cages as you adventure. Injure said animal with the lowest damage weapon you can find to bring it to -1 hp or less. Death knell it. Boom, 10 minutes of +1 caster level before you go into the final antechambers of the tomb of spoony. Awesomely flavorful behavior for a disciple of Nerull.

Calanon
2011-10-21, 12:48 AM
@Calanon
Why would they kill the undead? They are just mindless husks with souls departed.

Except maybe vampires?

And I am sort of streched between "they do not murder" and "they murder en masse" approach. I like first one more.

KILL THE LICH! >:D SHOW THAT LICH TRUE DEATH! MUWHAHAHAHAHA!

Set
2011-10-21, 01:34 AM
If you want to go for a strange 'enemy of my enemy' situation, have the local church of Nerull sponser a genocidal campaign against a race that the locals kinda want dead anyway, like goblins or orcs or whatnot.

The Nerullites found out that Baron Whatshisface offered up a bounty on orc heads, and have flocked here to practice their skills at murder. Some use undead, sending them forth to make more undead (or just more corpses, that they can turn into undead and order deep into orcish territory before releasing control and letting them rampage around). Others quest to find the headwaters to some of the main rivers in the Pomarj, to poison them (or foul them with contagion, etc.).

They live in their own shanty communities on the border, just *over* the official border (since the locals don't want them anywhere near them), and wreak state-sponsored havoc on the local humanoids, bringing heads aplenty for the bounty, finding it pleasing that they are getting paid by the good guys to commit acts of wanton genocide.

Not only is this encampment a training ground, it's also a recruitment center (locals who've lost kin to the orcs, and support the destruction of the race, are recruited as rangers and whatnot, with the hopes that their love of killing orcs can eventually blossom into a love of just plain old killing) and part of a Nerullite push to show their value to society in general, as there will *always* be races that the namby-pamby good guys want dead, and a Nerullite is built for making stuff dead.

The quiet goal is for the Nerullites to make a grand sacrifice to Nerull. It's not enough to kill a thousand orcs, it's not enough to rid the Pomarj of humanoid monsters, the end-game is to destroy an entire *race* in his name. Orcs, goblins, hobgoblins? Whatever. Other groups are working on smaller and less commonplace races, like tasloi or beastmen or whatever, but, to make a real impression, a charismatic Nerullite priest-lich has set himself a goal of genociding a prominent humanoid race, in his own bid for being found worthy of becoming a direct servitor of the Reaper.

If the 'good' races not only cheer him on, but actually provide him aid and support in this 'kill alla kobolds' task, so much the sweeter, the dark irony will be.

And if such campaigns grow and become successful, with orcs and goblins and kobolds so rare as to be all-but forgotten, there will *always* be new foes. Those darned elves, who seized the Lendore Isles and evicted all the human natives, who stood aside and closed their borders when Iuz and the Scarlet Brotherhood brought ruin to many good human kingdoms? Who would miss them? Those dwarves, always undercutting human commerce, keeping the best of the world's resources for themselves, like leeches, taking and taking from the community, but never giving back. Halflings, scurrying about underfoot, like vermin, taking anything that isn't nailed down and spreading their lies. You know the Shaking Scarlet Pox started in the halfling district, right? Because of their unsanitary ways, thousands died...

Oh yes. The campaign will never end...

Balor01
2011-10-21, 02:57 AM
Ok, this is awesome. Just sayin'.

Hyudra
2011-10-21, 07:52 AM
If you want to go for a strange 'enemy of my enemy' situation, have the local church of Nerull sponser a genocidal campaign against a race that the locals kinda want dead anyway, like goblins or orcs or whatnot.

The Nerullites found out that Baron Whatshisface offered up a bounty on orc heads, and have flocked here to practice their skills at murder. Some use undead, sending them forth to make more undead (or just more corpses, that they can turn into undead and order deep into orcish territory before releasing control and letting them rampage around). Others quest to find the headwaters to some of the main rivers in the Pomarj, to poison them (or foul them with contagion, etc.).

They live in their own shanty communities on the border, just *over* the official border (since the locals don't want them anywhere near them), and wreak state-sponsored havoc on the local humanoids, bringing heads aplenty for the bounty, finding it pleasing that they are getting paid by the good guys to commit acts of wanton genocide.

Not only is this encampment a training ground, it's also a recruitment center (locals who've lost kin to the orcs, and support the destruction of the race, are recruited as rangers and whatnot, with the hopes that their love of killing orcs can eventually blossom into a love of just plain old killing) and part of a Nerullite push to show their value to society in general, as there will *always* be races that the namby-pamby good guys want dead, and a Nerullite is built for making stuff dead.

The quiet goal is for the Nerullites to make a grand sacrifice to Nerull. It's not enough to kill a thousand orcs, it's not enough to rid the Pomarj of humanoid monsters, the end-game is to destroy an entire *race* in his name. Orcs, goblins, hobgoblins? Whatever. Other groups are working on smaller and less commonplace races, like tasloi or beastmen or whatever, but, to make a real impression, a charismatic Nerullite priest-lich has set himself a goal of genociding a prominent humanoid race, in his own bid for being found worthy of becoming a direct servitor of the Reaper.

If the 'good' races not only cheer him on, but actually provide him aid and support in this 'kill alla kobolds' task, so much the sweeter, the dark irony will be.

And if such campaigns grow and become successful, with orcs and goblins and kobolds so rare as to be all-but forgotten, there will *always* be new foes. Those darned elves, who seized the Lendore Isles and evicted all the human natives, who stood aside and closed their borders when Iuz and the Scarlet Brotherhood brought ruin to many good human kingdoms? Who would miss them? Those dwarves, always undercutting human commerce, keeping the best of the world's resources for themselves, like leeches, taking and taking from the community, but never giving back. Halflings, scurrying about underfoot, like vermin, taking anything that isn't nailed down and spreading their lies. You know the Shaking Scarlet Pox started in the halfling district, right? Because of their unsanitary ways, thousands died...

Oh yes. The campaign will never end...

This. I like it.

I think it would work best if the Nerull worshipers masked this goal under a new name. The Winnowing, perhaps. Whether they hid the Nerull aspects would be up to the cult/DM, but I expect they could get some fanatical support from Peasants who only heard about Nerull from good-aligned clerics (and could thus be convinced he's 'misunderstood') before things were revealed.

It's funny, but my favorite way to use Hextor (my favorite god) is as the 'necessary evil' angle. Different in execution (genocide isn't the goal, for example), but the essential idea is the same. Build a temple/fortress between yourselves and the vulnerable village(s). Hold off the savages who like to raid towns.

The temple sustains itself by recruiting more soldiers from prison cells and the streets (thieves, street urchins, robbers, murderers) and brainwash them with 18 hour days of weapons training, preaching, limited food rations and all the torture/grief that clerics of evil gods can provide. Todren, the innkeeper who killed his wife and child in a rage, is taken from prison, given to the Hextorites (as a death penalty of sorts) and becomes a rank and file soldier with unerring to-the-death obedience and a cold stare that leaves you wondering if the killer is still in there. To the locals, it's hard to deny that the towns and villagers are safer, that crime is down or virtually nonexistent.

The modus operandi of the church would involve spreading word of 'heroes' among the Temple of Hextor, propaganda, worming their way into small governments and town councils, and using that to bring about change. The end goal is tyranny, domination, slavery of the weak, recruitment of the strong.

JohnnyCancer
2011-10-21, 08:29 AM
Unlike some death gods, Nerull gets his jollies from the fear of death; especially violent death.

Dire Moose
2011-10-23, 02:54 AM
It's not one of the Uber domains, but it's not terribad either.

If I did anything, it would be saying Cause Fear affects foes of a CR of up to the Cultist's ECL -2. Just to keep it relevant.

Death Knell is sorta lame at first glance, but it's really a fairly easy way to give yourself +1 caster level, especially after you've stopped using 2nd level spells as much. Keep an animal or animals (such as stray cats, dogs) in cages as you adventure. Injure said animal with the lowest damage weapon you can find to bring it to -1 hp or less. Death knell it. Boom, 10 minutes of +1 caster level before you go into the final antechambers of the tomb of spoony. Awesomely flavorful behavior for a disciple of Nerull.

The looks on the other players' faces when they finally realize what the kitten was for would be awesome.

Hyudra
2011-10-23, 08:55 AM
The looks on the other players' faces when they finally realize what the kitten was for would be awesome.

"Anything?" the knight asked.

The ranger pointed, "The tracks lead into this cave. I think this is where the Direst Wolf makes her lair."

"Good. Everyone ready?"

"No," Millicent Zur replied, her voice soft. She retrieved the kitten that had made itself cozy atop her backpack. For a moment, she stroked it.

"Hah!" Tolly crowed. The halfling spellthief pointed at Millicent, "I told you! You care! You care about the kitten!"

With a deft motion, Millicent stuck her dagger into the kitten's midsection. Tolly's mouth dropped.

"You killed her!"

Millicent shook her head, touching her holy symbol. "No... Rest assured, it is only dying, yet. Nerull! Concedo tibi immitis! Nex morte!"

The holy symbol flared black and the cat yowled, a long, drawn out sound that was swallowed up by the trees. A white wisp of spirit rose from the cat's mouth and flowed into Millicent's own.

"Now it is dead."