More Gish. Man do I love my Gishes

[Snowbluff]

OK! So can some explain the gish sorcX/Pal2/Marshal1?/fightermageprcidr to me?The Paladin levels make sense for saves I quess, but Marshal is beyond me, and I don't remember the last component.

Edit: ALso, what kind of spells and feats do you choose with this?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Sorcadins (Sorcerer X/Paladin 2) work by virtue of getting their massive CHA to all saves on top of their other stats. Usually, they dip into Sacred Exorcist for Turn Undead attempts before jumping over to better Gish PrCs like Abjurant Champion.

Your typical Sorcadin goes Paladin 2/Sorcerer X/Sacred Exorcist Y/Abjurant Champion 5, where X is the minimum number of levels needed to qualify for either Sacred Exorcist or Abjurant Champion (I forget which is easier to qualify for from this set-up) and Y is whatever you want it to be after you take all of Abjurant Champion.

Sorcadin-style gishes add Marshal (sometimes) for getting their CHA mode on whatever auras you can nab at Marshal 1, usually more skills, maybe some saves, possibly save DCs for spells.

[Keld Denar]

Um, the typical Sorcadin build doesn't have the Marshall dip. Its:

Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/AbjurantChampion5/SacredExorcist8

Paladin2 gives you the martial weapon proficiencies you need for Spellsword. It also gives you Cha to saves, which is nice.

Sorcerer4 gives you 2/4 BAB (blech), but gets you started on the spellcasting you need. Gives 2nd level spells, which you need for Spellsword.

Spellsword1 is there literally as a segue into AbjChampion. You don't have the BAB yet to get in, but you don't want to lose more caster levels with another full BAB level and you don't want to lose any more BAB with 2 more Sorc levels. Plus, the -10% reduction in ASF is handy. Mostly, though, +1 BAB and +1 spellcaster level.

AbjChamp is your bread and butter. This is THE gish class. It turbocharges your shield spell, gives 5/5 BAB, d10 HD, and 5/5 spellcasting. The only sad thing is that it only has 1 strong save, but whatever. The Quickened Abjurations ability is HOT, since action economy is a pain for a gish.

Sacred Exorcist is the finisher. Its got a nice chassis (3/4 BAB, d8 HD, full casting), and a host of nice class features. Turn Undead is the biggest. You are a Cha based spellcaster, so its safe to say you have a lot of Cha. Turn Undead lets you swing it like a sword. Divine Might gives you +Cha to damage for a round (stacks with Arcane Strike for nova damage). Law Devotion gives you a huge boost to hit, which channels into Power Attack damage. If you are Illumian, you can use the NaenHoon rune combo to pretty much DMM Persist 2 buffs on you. Lots of goodies!

So, yea...not really any room for a Marshall dip in there. If you did include it, it would be for the Motivate Dex aura, which gives your team a bonus of your +Cha to initiative, among other things. More Cha synergy, but at the cost of BAB and spellcasting. Not worth it, IMO.

EDIT:

Common feats:
Power Attack (duh, winning)
Arcane Strike
Divine Might
Law Devotion (assuming normal Pally, rather than Freedom)
Minor Shapeshift

and then some metamagic like Extend + Persist

Common gear:
+X Spellstoring Bloodstone weapon. Action nova!
+Cha
+Con
+Str
Circlet of Rapid Casting
Mithril Chain Shirt with abilities like Soulfire

Common spells:
SHIELD
Heart of X (Fire, Water, Air, Earth, Heart)
Wraithstrike
Whirling Blade
Greater Mighty Wallop
Greater Mirror Image
Elemental Body
Greater Invisibility
Blade of Blood
Dragonskin/Spiderskin
Greater Luminous Armor (assuming you take Arcane Preperation)
Enlarge Person
Vampiric Touch (something to load in your Spellstoring weapon)

[Snowbluff]

Um, the typical Sorcadin build doesn't have the Marshall dip. Its:

Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/AbjurantChampion5/SacredExorcist8

Paladin2 gives you the martial weapon proficiencies you need for Spellsword. It also gives you Cha to saves, which is nice.

Sorcerer4 gives you 2/4 BAB (blech), but gets you started on the spellcasting you need. Gives 2nd level spells, which you need for Spellsword.

Spellsword1 is there literally as a segue into AbjChampion. You don't have the BAB yet to get in, but you don't want to lose more caster levels with another full BAB level and you don't want to lose any more BAB with 2 more Sorc levels. Plus, the -10% reduction in ASF is handy. Mostly, though, +1 BAB and +1 spellcaster level.

AbjChamp is your bread and butter. This is THE gish class. It turbocharges your shield spell, gives 5/5 BAB, d10 HD, and 5/5 spellcasting. The only sad thing is that it only has 1 strong save, but whatever. The Quickened Abjurations ability is HOT, since action economy is a pain for a gish.

Sacred Exorcist is the finisher. Its got a nice chassis (3/4 BAB, d8 HD, full casting), and a host of nice class features. Turn Undead is the biggest. You are a Cha based spellcaster, so its safe to say you have a lot of Cha. Turn Undead lets you swing it like a sword. Divine Might gives you +Cha to damage for a round (stacks with Arcane Strike for nova damage). Law Devotion gives you a huge boost to hit, which channels into Power Attack damage. If you are Illumian, you can use the NaenHoon rune combo to pretty much DMM Persist 2 buffs on you. Lots of goodies!

So, yea...not really any room for a Marshall dip in there. If you did include it, it would be for the Motivate Dex aura, which gives your team a bonus of your +Cha to initiative, among other things. More Cha synergy, but at the cost of BAB and spellcasting. Not worth it, IMO.

EDIT:

Common feats:
Power Attack (duh, winning)
Arcane Strike
Divine Might
Law Devotion (assuming normal Pally, rather than Freedom)
Minor Shapeshift

and then some metamagic like Extend + Persist

Common gear:
+X Spellstoring Bloodstone weapon. Action nova!
+Cha
+Con
+Str
Circlet of Rapid Casting
Mithril Chain Shirt with abilities like Soulfire

Common spells:
SHIELD
Heart of X (Fire, Water, Air, Earth, Heart)
Wraithstrike
Whirling Blade
Greater Mighty Wallop
Greater Mirror Image
Elemental Body
Greater Invisibility
Blade of Blood
Dragonskin/Spiderskin
Greater Luminous Armor (assuming you take Arcane Preperation)
Enlarge Person
Vampiric Touch (something to load in your Spellstoring weapon)

This is way different than I heard, and just seems wrong. I won't pick it apart, but I will say the -10% ASF reduction is useless if you are using a spell that gives an armor bonus to AC, like Luminous Armor. Also, were is Combat Casting? I thought it was a stable for this kind of thing.

[Hirax]

That wasn't an all inclusive list of feats. The reasons for taking spellsword were pointed out, it's a net win for the build for earlier entry to ab champ, even if you're getting luminous armor somehow.

[Curious]

This is way different than I heard, and just seems wrong. I won't pick it apart, but I will say the -10% ASF reduction is useless if you are using a spell that gives an armor bonus to AC, like Luminous Armor. Also, were is Combat Casting? I thought it was a stable for this kind of thing.

How is it wrong? This is the same build I've seen touted around the forum for quite a while now, and it works fantastically. You don't need combat casting because almost everything you cast is going to be either a persisted buff, or a quickened combat spell.

[Hirax]

How is it wrong? This is the same build I've seen touted around the forum for quite a while now, and it works fantastically. You don't need combat casting because almost everything you cast is going to be either a persisted buff, or a quickened combat spell.

Pre req for ab champ is the reason.

[Curious]

Pre req for ab champ is the reason.

Ah, didn't remember that. I'm sure Keld was just tossing out feats that would be good once you had your prerequisites.

[Keld Denar]

Its a prereq, but its hardly a highlight of the build. It doesn't make as big of a difference as say...Arcane Strike or Minor Shapeshift. Its just kinda there, cause it has to be. I also didn't list Practiced Spellcaster, which is pretty much a gimme for any non-Krau Illumian. I didn't list it because its not special.

If you had asked for a full build, and I left it out, shame on me. You asked for highlights and suggested feats. I gave them.

Even if you are rocking the GLA, its good to wear a Mithril Chain Shirt with it. You won't benefit from the AC, but you can stack enchantments on top of it, things like Soulfire that you can't reliably duplicate with spells. Its basically a free body slot for you to stack on some cheap enhancements where you don't have to worry about the enhancement bonus going to your AC.

Thats the gold standard for Sorcadin. If you don't believe me, thats fine. Do a couple of google searches yourself for Sorcadin, and tell me which builds come up. MOST of them are gonna be that, or something involving Sublime Chord. Its the most Cha-erific gish build period, and its been that way ever since Complete Mage was released 5-odd years ago.

[Hirax]

Just a quick note that luminous armor isn't worth it in my opinion. It's only 2 more armor than greater mage armor, but you get GMA for free.

[Eldariel]

This is way different than I heard, and just seems wrong. I won't pick it apart, but I will say the -10% ASF reduction is useless if you are using a spell that gives an armor bonus to AC, like Luminous Armor. Also, were is Combat Casting? I thought it was a stable for this kind of thing.

To be clear, Spellsword is mostly there because it requires BAB +4 and grants casting, while Abjurant Champion requires BAB +5. So you take one level of Spellsword which qualifies you to finish off with Abjurant Champion.

As for Combat Casting, the checks to cast defensively are trivially easy later on anyways even without it. I don't even use it in Pathfinder where Defensive Casting was made a tad harder. In 3.5, Skill Focus: Concentration would be better (and it's awful). However, yes, you need to take it as a prerequisite for Abjurant Champion.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Just a quick note that luminous armor isn't worth it in my opinion. It's only 2 more armor than greater mage armor, but you get GMA for free.

Greater Mage Armor is conjuration.

[Hirax]

Bah, I'm used to playing with a houserule where it's abjuration. Otherwise getting luminous armor is a pain in the neck for sorcerers, wands being the easiest option.

[Snowbluff]

Probably my biggest problem is sacred exorcist. You know who else gets 3/4 BAB and d8 HD? Monks. I don't have Defender of Faith, so I'll have to take your word on those class feature. If they aren't amazing, isn't there a full BAB, full casting alternative? I think Arcane Strike is based on BAB, and I know Power Attack is based on BAB. SE just sounds like gimping the set up too much.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Probably my biggest problem is sacred exorcist. You know who else gets 3/4 BAB and d8 HD? Monks.

And druids, bards, clerics, and swordsages. Your argument is invalid. :smallannoyed:

[Hirax]

Sacred exorcist is worth it for 1 level for turning, if nothing else.

[Snowbluff]

And druids, bards, clerics, and swordsages. Your argument is invalid. :smallannoyed:

I was kidding. In other new, SS are considered inferior to their d12 counterparts, Druids are d8 since it makes turning into animals easy. Following that logic, bears, fleshrakers, and piranhas have d8s, too. And that kinda says nothing. Don't know where I was going with this. I did not know ADOLS could apply to thoughts. I think the lousiness of Monks outweighs the power of 2 Tier 1s, a Tier 2, and a Tier 3.

I didn't know bards had d8, though. The more you, I guess.

Oh, right! Not full BAB was my problem, too. Argument never lost validity.


Sacred exorcist is worth it for 1 level for turning, if nothing else.

Paladins don't get turning yet! Taking 2 levels worth it though? At that point you do get another BAB, which is the best you could hope for from any other gish class.

Still looking for alternatives though. How does more Spellsword sound? I don't have that book either.

[Curious]

I was kidding. In other new, SS are considered inferior to their d12 counterparts, Druids are d8 since it makes turning into animals easy. Following that logic, bears, fleshrakers, and piranhas have d8s, too. And that kinda says nothing. Don't know where I was going with this. I did not know ADOLS could apply to thoughts. I think the lousiness of Monks outweighs the power of 2 Tier 1s, a Tier 2, and a Tier 3.

I didn't know bards had d8, though. The more you, I guess.

Oh, right! Not full BAB was my problem, too. Argument never lost validity.



Paladins don't get turning yet! Taking 2 levels worth it though? At that point you do get another BAB, which is the best you could hope for from any other gish class.

Still looking for alternatives though. How does more Spellsword sound? I don't have that book either.

Full BAB is not so terribly imperative, as you already have a +16 total, plus your large number of buff spells.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I I didn't know bards had d8, though. The more you, I guess.

*facepalm*

I was thinking of PF bards.

But full BAB is overrated compared to spells or maneuvers.

[Hirax]

Paladins don't get turning yet! Taking 2 levels worth it though? At that point you do get another BAB, which is the best you could hope for from any other gish class.

Still looking for alternatives though. How does more Spellsword sound? I don't have that book either.

What? I'm not saying to get turning from paladin. Sacred exorcist grants you turning all on its own, which is a reason it's so commonly used.

Spellsword misses caster progression on all even levels, and is rarely taken beyond first level.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Probably my biggest problem is sacred exorcist. You know who else gets 3/4 BAB and d8 HD? Monks. I don't have Defender of Faith, so I'll have to take your word on those class feature. If they aren't amazing, isn't there a full BAB, full casting alternative? I think Arcane Strike is based on BAB, and I know Power Attack is based on BAB. SE just sounds like gimping the set up too much.

As has been mentioned, the good things about Sacred Exorcist are turn undead, no lost caster levels, greater than 1/2 BAB, and d8 HP. Going Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8 gets you to the gold standard of 16 BAB and 9th level spells pre-epic.

[Keld Denar]

Yea, unless you are consistantly PAing for your full BAB, its not that hard to increase your attack rolls. Really, in 8 levels of SacEx, you only lose 2 BAB. That, combined with the 2 BAB you lose with Sorc4 means you finish with 16/20 BAB. Its not THE best BAB (some Gish builds get to to 17 or 18 and still get 9th level spells), but you can't get 9th level spells with 2 Pally levels if you lose another caster level.

Sure, Spellsword gives you full BAB, but its only 5/10 casting. That means that if you finish with Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword9/AbjChamp5, you'll only have 14 spellcaster levels. Thats 7th level spells, and only at level20. For the bulk of your gishy career, you'll be behind on spellcasting, missing out on high level buffs like Elemental Body. Also, your CL will suffer, making you vulnerable to dispels (the bane of buff and beat casters).

Also, not having Turn Undead means you lose out on one of the biggest ways to use your Charisma in combat. Even if you only take 4 levels of SacEx (the lost BAB is on the first, so the next 3 are fulll BAB)

Also, Spellsword is d8 HD, and Eldritch Knight is a d6. You aren't gonna get much better than Sacred Exorcist, trust me, we've all looked.

[Snowbluff]

What? I'm not saying to get turning from paladin. Sacred exorcist grants you turning all on its own, which is a reason it's so commonly used.

Spellsword misses caster progression on all even levels, and is rarely taken beyond first level.

Yeah, that was a sudden realization. I was wondering why you were suggesting a class feature already available to one of the base classes.


As has been mentioned, the good things about Sacred Exorcist are turn undead, no lost caster levels, greater than 1/2 BAB, and d8 HP. Going Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8 gets you to the gold standard of 16 BAB and 9th level spells pre-epic.


*facepalm*

I was thinking of PF bards.

But full BAB is overrated compared to spells or maneuvers.

Well shame on you. I guess. :smallredface:

I am not asking for full BAB, but more is definitely better. And since most of your spells are buffs, which don't normally scale past CL15 (if I recall correctly), or if they do, they don't get another improvement until CL20. And you are already short 2 CL, which could be fixed with a feat (I do not remember which one), but you are not getting the spells back. Also, pre-epic 9th level spells is the best you could hope for, so I think you are still free a caster level.

Also, Sorcerer past 1 sounds bad. Could anyone think of a PRC that only requires 1st spell, that would also qualify you for the other PRC? Their has to be at least one, and you would get a class feature out of it at least. :smallconfused:

[Keld Denar]

You can get away with only one Sorc level, but you'd probably lose more BAB.

You could use Human Paragon, or Elven Paragon (if you were like, a Star Elf) and you could totally do something with that. You're losing another caster level, though.

Besides, 9th level spells aren't just 9th level spells. They are metamagic'd 6th-8th level spells.

Really, there isn't much better than that. Trust me. The CharOp forums have been playing with this for years. Short of going with something like Beholder Mage, or even Incantatrix (at which point, you aren't a gish, you are a wizard with a sharp stick), or switching to a Wizard base, the classic Sorcadin as presented above is pretty much as good as it gets.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Yeah, that was a sudden realization. I was wondering why you were suggesting a class feature already available to one of the base classes.





Well shame on you. I guess. :smallredface:

I am not asking for full BAB, but more is definitely better. And since most of your spells are buffs, which don't normally scale past CL15 (if I recall correctly), or if they do, they don't get another improvement until CL20. And you are already short 2 CL, which could be fixed with a feat (I do not remember which one), but you are not getting the spells back. Also, pre-epic 9th level spells is the best you could hope for, so I think you are still free a caster level.

Also, Sorcerer past 1 sounds bad. Could anyone think of a PRC that only requires 1st spell, that would also qualify you for the other PRC? Their has to be at least one, and you would get a class feature out of it at least. :smallconfused:

While you are still loosing two spell levels with Abjurant Champion Martial Arcanist and Practiced Spellcaster you can have CL 20 (MA sets your CL to your BAB then you apply PS and you get a nice even CL 20) and it isn't that difficult yo increase your CL higher. For example since you are a paladin and thus a divine spellcaster (you can activate divine scrolls and wand so yeah)you can activate a Bead of Karma which gives you +4 CL for 10 minutes or so, more than enough time to cast all the long duration buffs, like say the Heart of xxxx line and other goodies.

Also technically Abjurant Champion only requires 1 spellcasting level :smallwink:

[Snowbluff]

You can get away with only one Sorc level, but you'd probably lose more BAB.

You could use Human Paragon, or Elven Paragon (if you were like, a Star Elf) and you could totally do something with that. You're losing another caster level, though.

Besides, 9th level spells aren't just 9th level spells. They are metamagic'd 6th-8th level spells.

Really, there isn't much better than that. Trust me. The CharOp forums have been playing with this for years. Short of going with something like Beholder Mage, or even Incantatrix (at which point, you aren't a gish, you are a wizard with a sharp stick), or switching to a Wizard base, the classic Sorcadin as presented above is pretty much as good as it gets.

Well, if you take Sor2 then a PRC until 2, you will come out with the same BAB. Just found it off-putting that Sorc was taken past 2. The only time I would do that would be if you are incredibly limited in Classes and PRCs allowed, like my fighter/sorc buddy.

Still, thanks for the input. My quest for gish perfection goes on. I could not have gotten this far without your help.

[Eldariel]

Also, Sorcerer past 1 sounds bad. Could anyone think of a PRC that only requires 1st spell, that would also qualify you for the other PRC? Their has to be at least one, and you would get a class feature out of it at least. :smallconfused:

Such PRCs don't really exist and definitely not with full spellcasting advancement. Generally PRCs force you to be character level 5-6 before you can enter without shenanigans (few exceptions like Master Specialist exist but they need not apply here). Incidentally, this is why people take Sorcerer 4. Spellcasting is a stronger base class feature than anything any non-caster gets, so 4 levels of casting is better than 1 level of casting and 3 levels of random crap.

And indeed, the game's strongest Gish-spells, Shapechange & Time Stop (aka. Free Buffs Wille), are 9th level spells, so you definitely want to get there ASAP.

[herrhauptmann]

Just a quick note that luminous armor isn't worth it in my opinion. It's only 2 more armor than greater mage armor, but you get GMA for free.

So a level 2 spell is only just a little bit better than a level 4 spell, and thus not worth it? :smallconfused:
Don't forget that -4 attack people suffer for hitting you in melee. And if you're a gish, you should be in melee a bit.
Big downside? Luminous Armor and GLA require a sorc to spend a feat or two to 'prepare' it as a spell.


Alternate gish, one i've been working on a little:
It suffers a little in total number of spells known, and per day compared to the sorcadin, but I think it should still be fun.
Bard 1/Pal2/Full Bab 4/ Suel Arcanamach1/Abjurant Champion3 (advance S.A.)/ Sublime Chord 1 (stacks CL on top of S.A)/Abjurant Champ +2 (advance S.C.)/Sacred exorcist 6 (advance SC)
Or:
Bard 1/Pal2/Full Bab 4/ Suel Arcanamach4/ Sublime Chord 1 (stacks CL on top of S.A)/Abjurant Champ 5 (advance S.C.)/Spellsword 1 (advance SC)/Sacred exorcist 2 (advance SC)
It does give you level 9's by 20th level. You get some odd abilities that MIGHT be worth the oddball caster list you'll have.
It gets better if the DM allows Harmonious Knight ACF to count as 'bardic music' for purposes of prereqs.
Also, you'll really want Suel 3 for free extend on ALL of your buffs you cast on yourself and tenacious dispelling.

But when it's done, you'll have a CL=BAB. Enemies will dispel your spells at a CL of BAB+6. All of your buffs will be freely extended (at least when cast on yourself). If you can work in some swiftblade, it gets even nicer, but that pretty much requires epic.
If I'm right, haste in a 6th level slot will then give you an extended timestop (SA: Spells cast on self last for double duration), or 4 rounds of timestop. As a quickened spell too (swiftblades get to freely quicken castings of Haste)
And all those free metamagics? Don't even cost extra time.

[Coidzor]

Druids are d8 since it makes turning into animals easy. Following that logic, bears, fleshrakers, and piranhas have d8s, too.

You don't seem to understand how wildshape works. The Druid having a d8 HD or a few d6s or d4s from multiclassing has no interaction with wildshaping, except in that if the druid multiclassed, then he wouldn't progress his class features with those other classes.

[Godskook]

Marshal really only shows up in gestalt Sorcadin builds. For regular play, it just doesn't offer enough.

And as for Spellsword, it not only gives access to Abjurant Champion, but also to Sacred Exorcist with the skill pre-requisites. An oft-over-looked portion of the build.

[Keld Denar]

Well, if you take Sor2 then a PRC until 2, you will come out with the same BAB. Just found it off-putting that Sorc was taken past 2. The only time I would do that would be if you are incredibly limited in Classes and PRCs allowed, like my fighter/sorc buddy.

About the only PrC you can qualify for at that point is Master Specialist, which, surprise surprise, loses the same point of BAB that Sorc3 would and a Sorcerer can't even take. Other than that, racial paragons and...Survivor?

[Eldariel]

Marshal really only shows up in gestalt Sorcadin builds. For regular play, it just doesn't offer enough.

And as for Spellsword, it not only gives access to Abjurant Champion, but also to Sacred Exorcist with the skill pre-requisites. An oft-over-looked portion of the build.

In other words, the other classes are the flashy good stuff while Spellsword is the silent workhorse; the enabler that makes the whole build possible without much in the way of thanks.

[Psyren]

In other words, the other classes are the flashy good stuff while Spellsword is the silent workhorse; the enabler that makes the whole build possible without much in the way of thanks.

Rather like the Binder dip in the iconic Eldritch Hellfire TheUrpriest Warlock build. Not only is his Naberius letting you Hellfire every round without burning your vitality to ash, he also gives you the fort save you need to get into Ur-Priest on time.

[Andreaz]

Speaking of gishes, could I get a little help for an arcane or psionic gestalt?

Game's Pathfinder
Weapon Finesse is baseline, and all feats that required it in the past require BAB 2+ instead
Two-Weapon Fighting is baseline (that is, standard penalty is -4/-4 with the -2 alleviation for a light off-hand), and the single TWF feat gives your offhand iterative attacks identical to the main hand
Stats are 18 18 17 16 15 14 (not assigned)
All 3.5 material is allowed, save that converted material may not be taken in the 3.5 form
Only 1 side of the build can Multiclass at all, the other base class must be taken all the way to 20

While I'd rather have an armored character for style, it is not necessary.

[Kaje]

Rather like the Binder dip in the iconic Eldritch Hellfire TheUrpriest Warlock build. Not only is his Naberius letting you Hellfire every round without burning your vitality to ash, he also gives you the fort save you need to get into Ur-Priest on time.

Sort of. Difference is, Binders are awesome and add even more awesome flavor to an already awesome build. Spellsword's just there.


Speaking of gishes, could I get a little help for an arcane or psionic gestalt?

Game's Pathfinder
Weapon Finesse is baseline, and all feats that required it in the past require BAB 2+ instead
Two-Weapon Fighting is baseline (that is, standard penalty is -4/-4 with the -2 alleviation for a light off-hand), and the single TWF feat gives your offhand iterative attacks identical to the main hand
Stats are 18 18 17 16 15 14 (not assigned)
All 3.5 material is allowed, save that converted material may not be taken in the 3.5 form
Only 1 side of the build can Multiclass at all, the other base class must be taken all the way to 20

While I'd rather have an armored character for style, it is not necessary.

Beguiler 4 / Rainbow Servant 10 / Mindbender 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 // Duskblade or Magus 20

[Snowbluff]

You don't seem to understand how wildshape works. The Druid having a d8 HD or a few d6s or d4s from multiclassing has no interaction with wildshaping, except in that if the druid multiclassed, then he wouldn't progress his class features with those other classes.

This might be some gamer-wanking, but Druids have the same HD and BAB as animals, and when you wild shape, you become and animal. It says animals have d8 HD and BAB 3/4 of HD, so when you transform, these can be the same while keeping the animal flavor and nothing has to change.

Multiclassing kinda throws a wrench in the works. I do not know how wild shape scales, but 1 interpretation (if Wildshape HD doesn't scale with other, no WS classes) that if you MCed into Sorc, then you become an animal with Druid levels as an animal, with levels in Sorc.

[Andreaz]

Beguiler 4 / Rainbow Servant 10 / Mindbender 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 // Duskblade or Magus 20

Shiny! I forgot about the beguiler and rainbow servant almost completely. Suggestions to replace mindbender, though? I prefer thrallherds...and I don't like thrallherds :p

[Keld Denar]

This might be some gamer-wanking, but Druids have the same HD and BAB as animals, and when you wild shape, you become and animal. It says animals have d8 HD and BAB 3/4 of HD, so when you transform, these can be the same while keeping the animal flavor and nothing has to change.

Multiclassing kinda throws a wrench in the works. I do not know how wild shape scales, but 1 interpretation (if Wildshape HD doesn't scale with other, no WS classes) that if you MCed into Sorc, then you become an animal with Druid levels as an animal, with levels in Sorc.

No. As Coidzor mentioned, you aren't understanding how Wildshape works.


Wild Shape (Su)
At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the alternate form special ability, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Each time you use wild shape, you regain lost hit points as if you had rested for a night.



A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume one or more specific alternate forms. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using alternate form reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template. Assuming an alternate form results in the following changes to the creature:

The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well.

The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature).
The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.
The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form.
The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or attacks of its new form.
The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.
The creature retains its hit points and save bonuses, although its save modifiers may change due to a change in ability scores.
Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.
The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components.
The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and it gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise.
Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and vice versa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.


When you Wildshape, you're HP don't change. At all. Regardless of what HD size you have, or what HD size you change into. Druids have d8 HD because thats what WotC figured they should have for balance purposes (they CLEARLY undervalued Wildshape and spellcasting). You don't actually gain the animal's HD. If you have non-druid HD, you don't get those HD on top of the creature you WS into. At all.

If you are a 15th level druid with 150 HP, and you WS into a 3 HD leopard, you still have 150 HP. If you are a Druid10/Sorcerer5 with 130 HP, and you Wildshape into a 12 HD Dire Bear, you'll still have 130 HP. If you get Blasphemy'd by a Balor while WSed into a leopard, its based on your actual HD, not the HD of the creature you WS into.

If you take a feat like Dragon Wildshape, which allows you to WS into a Dragon, you don't gain a d12 HD. Your HD don't change. Period.

[darksolitaire]

Also, you'll really want Suel 3 for free extend on ALL of your buffs you cast on yourself and tenacious dispelling.


I just read those parts in Suel Arcanamach, and I think that those benefits only apply to arcanamach spells. But your build does look very interesting. I'll have to check how it compares to standard Sublime Chord...:smallbiggrin:

[Snowbluff]

No. As Coidzor mentioned, you aren't understanding how Wildshape works.





When you Wildshape, you're HP don't change. At all. Regardless of what HD size you have, or what HD size you change into. Druids have d8 HD because thats what WotC figured they should have for balance purposes (they CLEARLY undervalued Wildshape and spellcasting). You don't actually gain the animal's HD. If you have non-druid HD, you don't get those HD on top of the creature you WS into. At all.

If you are a 15th level druid with 150 HP, and you WS into a 3 HD leopard, you still have 150 HP. If you are a Druid10/Sorcerer5 with 130 HP, and you Wildshape into a 12 HD Dire Bear, you'll still have 130 HP. If you get Blasphemy'd by a Balor while WSed into a leopard, its based on your actual HD, not the HD of the creature you WS into.

If you take a feat like Dragon Wildshape, which allows you to WS into a Dragon, you don't gain a d12 HD. Your HD don't change. Period.

Everything else that has alternate form has d8 and 3/4 BAB too.

[Keld Denar]

Dragons would like a word with you.

Also, Outsiders.

[Snowbluff]

Meh. Twas fan wank anyway. Though I doubt it was not a coininkidink, I will take your word for it.

Edit: This doesn't seem to work with outsiders. Quasits and Hound Archons both turn into animals with Alternate form and have d8 HD. I also don't see where it says dragons have Alternate Form, either. Can you refer me to where it says they do?

EDIT2: d12 Dragon forms were added after-the-fact, before, druids only had d8 HD forms. Unless my search for plants with different HD comes up.

[Keld Denar]

Alternate Form (Su)
A young or older bronze dragon can assume any animal or humanoid form of Medium size or smaller as a standard action three times per day. The dragon can remain in its animal or humanoid form until it chooses to assume a new one or return to its natural form.


Alternate Form (Su)
A gold dragon can assume any animal or humanoid form of Medium size or smaller as a standard action three times per day. The dragon can remain in its animal or humanoid form until it chooses to assume a new one or return to its natural form.


Alternate Form (Su)
A silver dragon can assume any animal or humanoid form of Medium size or smaller as a standard action three times per day. The dragon can remain in its animal or humanoid form until it chooses to assume a new one or return to its natural form.

The higher power dragons have the ability. I think Reds and Blues do, too.

Also, while Outsiders DO have d8 HD, they are also full BAB, which doesn't fit your mold.

[Snowbluff]

The higher power dragons have the ability. I think Reds and Blues do, too.

Also, while Outsiders DO have d8 HD, they are also full BAB, which doesn't fit your mold.

So, Dragons don't turn into animals but have d12 HD? Humanoids do have d8 HD though, but to say that PC does not work differently as intended with animal form is a large leap imo.

[Keld Denar]

All I was proving with that is that there is NO correlation between the HD (or BAB, or saves, or any other HD related statistic) of the base creature vs the creature you become. Just because there are some similarities doesn't make it a rule. Druids have a d8 HD because druids have ALWAYS had a d8 HD. Wizards have ALWAYS had a d4 HD. Fighters have ALWAYS had a d10 HD You know what? Prior to 3.0, ALL monsters had d8 HD as well.

I cited the rules for Alternate Form. The things listed in Alternate Form change. The things that aren't listed in Alternate Form don't change. HP totals don't change, even if the creature you WS into has a different size HD than you, or a different Con score than you. Your BAB stays the same as well. If you have a +10 BAB and you WS into the form of a 3 HD leopard with a +2 BAB, you retain your +10 BAB. If you have a +2 BAB and you WS into the form of a Dire Bear with +9 BAB, you still only have +2 BAB.

I guess I don't understand what you are insinuating. Any correlation between the fact that druids have a d8 HD and an animal has a d8 HD is purely coincidental, as the HP you get from form to form remain constant regardless of HD size.

[Eldariel]

All I was proving with that is that there is NO correlation between the HD (or BAB, or saves, or any other HD related statistic) of the base creature vs the creature you become. Just because there are some similarities doesn't make it a rule. Druids have a d8 HD because druids have ALWAYS had a d8 HD. Wizards have ALWAYS had a d4 HD. Fighters have ALWAYS had a d10 HD You know what? Prior to 3.0, ALL monsters had d8 HD as well.

Yeah, originally Mages were d4, Thieves d6, Priests d8 and Warriors d10. All this carried to 3.0, largely (Bard = type of Thief, Druid = type of Priest, etc. - only real exceptions are Warriors that range from d8 to d12 now). Of course, back then Warriors got way more HP from high Con than any other class so the HP differentials were bigger than that.

[Snowbluff]

Yeah, originally Mages were d4, Thieves d6, Priests d8 and Warriors d10. All this carried to 3.0, largely (Bard = type of Thief, Druid = type of Priest, etc. - only real exceptions are Warriors that range from d8 to d12 now). Of course, back then Warriors got way more HP from high Con than any other class so the HP differentials were bigger than that.

See, why couldn't someone say this? Instead I get a bunch of arguments that lacked fact checking.

And a fighter doesn't learn Alternate Form last time I checked.

Edit: I never said this was a rule, but that it was gamer-fan-wank. Also, being undead makes you have a d12 HD, but I don't see how Fighter always having d10 HD has anything to do with this. Druids, sans/before dragon wildshapes, can only become creature with d8 for HD and 3/4 BAB.

You are taking this much too seriously.

[Eldariel]

See, why couldn't someone say this? Instead I get a bunch of arguments that lacked fact checking.

And a fighter doesn't learn Alternate Form last time I checked.

Edit: I never said this was a rule, but that it was gamer-fan-wank. Also, being undead makes you have a d12 HD, but I don't see how Fighter always having d10 HD has anything to do with this. Druids, sans/before dragon wildshapes, can only become creature with d8 for HD and 3/4 BAB.

You are taking this much too seriously.

This was just a history lesson on hit dice, my dear. It was only tangentially related to your earlier discussion in that Keld brought the older editions up.

[Keld Denar]

What arguements lacked fact checking?

I dunno, maybe I'm misinterpretting you. I don't know what a "gamer-fan-wank" is, but it doesn't sound appealing.

And nobody ever said that Fighters get Alternate Form.

I guess I don't understand what happened. You seemed to imply that a Sacred Exorcist's d8 HD wasn't that good. It is, compared to just about anything else you can get with full casting. Even Eldritch Knight is only 9/10 casting and a d6 HD (although it is full BAB), but is completely devoid of class features other than its basic chassis. Spellsword is also only a d8 HD. AbjChamp is the only "gish" PrC I can think of that has a d10. Unfortunately, AbjChamp is only 5 levels long, so you can't really extend it past that short limit.

I guess that the point I'm trying to get with here, is that Sacred Exorcist is pretty good for ANY gish, and REALLY good for a Cha based gish because of the Cha synergy you get from Turn Undead. You can choose not to believe me, thats fine.

Anyway, the difference between d8 and d10 HD is only about 1 HP per level. Over half of your HP should be coming from Con, and you should have plenty of bonus temp HP from things like Hero's Feast, False Life, Vampiric Touch (from a Spellstoring weapon), Minor Shapeshift, and Heart of Earth. A d8 might be worse than a d10, but its better than a d6!

[Coidzor]

See, why couldn't someone say this? Instead I get a bunch of arguments that lacked fact checking.

...How, exactly, does citing the rules to explain to you how wild shape works when you demonstrate that you do not understand how it works count as an argument that lacks fact checking? :smallconfused:

[herrhauptmann]

I just read those parts in Suel Arcanamach, and I think that those benefits only apply to arcanamach spells. But your build does look very interesting. I'll have to check how it compares to standard Sublime Chord...:smallbiggrin:

The part that makes me think it could work with spells beyond what you get from Suel, is that Sublime chord stacks its casting on top of what casting you've already got. So a Bard 10/Sublime 5 has a CL of 15, rather than 10 bard and 5 SC.
So if you stack SC onto the Suel levels, your Bard1/Ftr6/Suel4/Sublime5 has a bard CL of 1, and a Suel (and sublime) CL of 9. And then he takes 5 levels in abjurant champion, and sets one of those equal to his BAB anyway, so the CL addition matters a little less than it does for a normal sublime chord.

If I'm wrong, well, there's still a number of good spells in levels 1-3 for buffs (haste), and in the case of the suel swiftblade, that enervated haste spell still came from his Suel levels, just that the 6th level slots came from something else.
Giving a second (though slightly more limited in scope) argument for why he can get a 4 round timestop from a 6th level spell slot.

[Snowbluff]

...How, exactly, does citing the rules to explain to you how wild shape works when you demonstrate that you do not understand how it works count as an argument that lacks fact checking? :smallconfused:

He suggested that Outsiders with Alternate form (for animals) had anything other than d8s for HD.


What arguements lacked fact checking?

I dunno, maybe I'm misinterpretting you. I don't know what a "gamer-fan-wank" is, but it doesn't sound appealing.

And nobody ever said that Fighters get Alternate Form.

I guess I don't understand what happened. You seemed to imply that a Sacred Exorcist's d8 HD wasn't that good. It is, compared to just about anything else you can get with full casting. Even Eldritch Knight is only 9/10 casting and a d6 HD (although it is full BAB), but is completely devoid of class features other than its basic chassis. Spellsword is also only a d8 HD. AbjChamp is the only "gish" PrC I can think of that has a d10. Unfortunately, AbjChamp is only 5 levels long, so you can't really extend it past that short limit.

I guess that the point I'm trying to get with here, is that Sacred Exorcist is pretty good for ANY gish, and REALLY good for a Cha based gish because of the Cha synergy you get from Turn Undead. You can choose not to believe me, thats fine.

Anyway, the difference between d8 and d10 HD is only about 1 HP per level. Over half of your HP should be coming from Con, and you should have plenty of bonus temp HP from things like Hero's Feast, False Life, Vampiric Touch (from a Spellstoring weapon), Minor Shapeshift, and Heart of Earth. A d8 might be worse than a d10, but its better than a d6!


This was just a history lesson on hit dice, my dear. It was only tangentially related to your earlier discussion in that Keld brought the older editions up.

Okay, I'll just sum up everything relevant :smalltongue: I was kidding about the d8 being bad, just wondering if their was a better alternative, since I did not know anything about the class or had the book. Someone pointed out SE had some good features. I dropped it.

Fan Wank is when a fanfic writer fixes something nonsensical from the original material to serve his needs. I used the term to describe me finding the correlation, and quite possibly the causation, of the druid's HD and BAB.
Then I suggested that Druid had d8 HD. You went crazy. I apologize for the confusion.

I'll say this though. If a druid had d4 HD and 1/2 BAB, and turned into a Bear, the fact that she would not be a good fighter or as tough would ruin the effect and most of the druid's gish potential.

[Keld Denar]

He suggested that Outsiders with Alternate form (for animals) had anything other than d8s.

No, you insinuated that there was the d8 AND the 3/4 BAB connection. While outsiders and animals have the same HD, outsiders are full BAB, as are Dragons (who also have d12 HD). I knew what HD size they had, and I figured you would understand what I was getting at. Again, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

[Snowbluff]

No, you insinuated that there was the d8 AND the 3/4 BAB connection. While outsiders and animals have the same HD, outsiders are full BAB, as are Dragons (who also have d12 HD). I knew what HD size they had, and I figured you would understand what I was getting at. Again, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

I wasn't being clear either then :P
I was suggesting their was a HD BAB for Druids and their animal Wild Shapes, and that any other HD BAB would produce a Wild Shape inconsistent with the animal rules, and that the Wild Shape rules were tailored for Druids, who already shared HD BAB with their forms.

For the record, some Outsiders who don't turn into animals have different HD. i think Balors are d10.

[herrhauptmann]

Nope, balors are still d8...
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor

[Eldariel]

For the record, some Outsiders who don't turn into animals have different HD. i think Balors are d10.

All Outsiders have d8 HD; that's a feature of Outsider hit dice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#outsiderType). To get anything else they'd have to change type (through e.g. Templates) or gain class levels (any creature uses the class's HD over its racial HD when taking class levels).

Balor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor) has 20d8 Hit Dice; it has (relatively) a lot of them but they're still all D8s.

[Snowbluff]

All Outsiders have d8 HD; that's a feature of Outsider hit dice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#outsiderType). To get anything else they'd have to change type (through e.g. Templates) or gain class levels (any creature uses the class's HD over its racial HD when taking class levels).

Balor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor) has 20d8 Hit Dice; it has (relatively) a lot of them but they're still all D8s.

Twas Retrievers I was thinking of, they have d10, but they are actually constructs, despite being demons.