Sabine's DR

[Silva Stormrage]

Just how high is it? Has anyone in the entire comic ever hurt her without cold iron weapons or magic? I really would hope that at level 15ish elan can do higher than 10 damage a round which is the normal succubus dr.

[NYCharlie212]

Elan got seriously energy drained though. That might be a reason. Roy's been the only person in comic who's able to hurt Sabine without cold iron with his star metal sword. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0355.html

Malak's also able to hurt her in this flashback: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html (Scroll down)

[thereaper]

Also keep in mind that we haven't seen Sabine in that many fights. I mean, Haley is an archer rogue (which doesn't have a lot of damage output minus sneak attack to begin with), Roy is a Fighter with a starmetal sword (which appears to make her DR moot), and now we're seeing level-drained people fighting her. It's not surprising that her DR matters more against people whose ability to deal damage is severely compromised.

[Silva Stormrage]

That is a good point, elan isn't exactly a powerhouse. I always assumed Roy's sword counted as good aligned since it is somewhat undead/demon bane and that also bypasses succubi's DR.

Though on fighting level drain enemies. Level draining doesn't reduce their damage at all. It only reduces their attack bonus. Also durkon was unable to hurt her when fighting at the inn either.

[Ron Miel]

What makes you think she's affected by pickles at all?

[The Dark Fiddler]

Malak's also able to hurt her in this flashback: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html (Scroll down)

That's magic though. Magic bypasses DR.


Though on fighting level drain enemies. Level draining doesn't reduce their damage at all.

It might affect Elan's damage output, we don't know the exact mechanics of Dashing Swordsman.

[Starbuck_II]

Also keep in mind that we haven't seen Sabine in that many fights. I mean, Haley is an archer rogue (which doesn't have a lot of damage output minus sneak attack to begin with), Roy is a Fighter with a starmetal sword (which appears to make her DR moot), and now we're seeing level-drained people fighting her. It's not surprising that her DR matters more against people whose ability to deal damage is severely compromised.

I assume Roy's power Attack matters a lot.
Assuming Sabine is DR 10/evil or Cold iron (standard for Succubus is DR 10/X) then uses 2 handed (longsword? I forget if he uses a Greatsword or not) 18 Str (4 damage comes 6) + PA (for at least 2 means he deals damage 4 damage), meaning he bypasses it on a roll of 0, he always bypasses it.
Even if he doesn't PA, he has enhancement bonus helping.
He never needed Star Metal.

Elan deals 18 Cha (4) on each pun, + 1d6 + enhancement (2: What is it at?) = So he deals on average 9 damage. So he barely hurts her unless he roll a 5 or a 6.

[Howler Dagger]

Elan deals 18 Cha (4) on each pun, + 1d6 + enhancement (2: What is it at?) = So he deals on average 9 damage. So he barely hurts her unless he roll a 5 or a 6.
CL&G puts his total CHA at 22, whihc means +6, and his rapier is +3. So on average 12. He would need to roll a 1 to not do anything. Of course, with zz-drtis(note to self: do not try to spell that ever again) return she could have a spell increasing her DR, which iirc she had when she fought roy in cliffport.

[King of Nowhere]

maybe sabine was taking some damage there. Maybe 2 or 3 damages bypassed DR. How inflouential are those to a high level demon with class levels? She can shrug them off even if they hurt a little bit.

[BlackestOfMages]

because it's a joke :smallconfused:

[Orzel]

1) Sabine's DR blocks Elan's attack because it's funny

2) Elan's attack is weak and would deal 1-3 damage to something with DR 10. Sabine should have at least 50 HP. Such damage is ignorable.

Elan is no longer useless as a warrior but he is still no more than a mook slayer and squishy killer.

Now the real question...
Why is Durkon using electric spells on a demon?
He is better of chucking rocks.

[Gift Jeraff]

Assuming each panel of Sabine's draining touch = 1 level drain, and panel 7 here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0794.html) was definitely more than 1 based on Nale's dialogue, Elan must have at least -7 to attack rolls due to all the negative levels. If I understand it correctly.

[BlackestOfMages]

Why is Durkon using electric spells on a demon?

because he's a cleric of the god of thunder, and a very devoted one. as such, he uses spells he gets from his deity in a way befiting the deity (so he blast with lightning). also, considering the clerical spell list, what else has he got other than a rare few fire spells (the type of his god's mortal enemy) and his lightning domain.

that and he mostly serves as a healer/support caster rather than primary blaster, so he probably dosen't prepare all that many damaging spells (and against most things lightning bolt is remarkably effective, especially in a palace with narow, line shaped corridors, so if it came down to a specific few blasts to chose, it'd normally be a good choice)

[Dr.Epic]

Just how high is it? Has anyone in the entire comic ever hurt her without cold iron weapons or magic? I really would hope that at level 15ish elan can do higher than 10 damage a round which is the normal succubus dr.

With a rapier and a bard's str, he still probably couldn't get past a DR 10 even with his puns.

[Zmflavius]

With a rapier and a bard's str, he still probably couldn't get past a DR 10 even with his puns.

I thought the puns let him substitute his charisma for his strength, making his strength irrelevant?

[The Dark Fiddler]

I thought the puns let him substitute his charisma for his strength, making his strength irrelevant?

It could be a replacement, or it could just add Charisma on top of Strength; we don't really know either way.

I didn't think Elan had a Stength penalty, though :smallconfused:

[Howler Dagger]

It replaces, see second to last panel. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html)

The "blocked because its funny" has more crediblity than any other theory on this thread IMO. I doubt the Giant would calculate Elans average damage (which he cant because he said there is nn CS for the Order) just for the purpose to see whether or not it would do enough damage for sabine to notice. He has said that he doesnt let adhering to the rules get in the way of the plot/jokes, so I dont see why he would stop here.

[Orzel]

because he's a cleric of the god of thunder, and a very devoted one. as such, he uses spells he gets from his deity in a way befiting the deity (so he blast with lightning). also, considering the clerical spell list, what else has he got other than a rare few fire spells (the type of his god's mortal enemy) and his lightning domain.

that and he mostly serves as a healer/support caster rather than primary blaster, so he probably dosen't prepare all that many damaging spells (and against most things lightning bolt is remarkably effective, especially in a palace with narow, line shaped corridors, so if it came down to a specific few blasts to chose, it'd normally be a good choice)

But but.. if Sabine is a demon, she's immune to electricity. He's a cleric. He should know that. Heck Nale should know that and figure out Durkon was stalling.

But back on topic. Elan's melee damage is pathetic and is a threat to no one with DR 10. One doesn't need to do the math to know that his damage only scares squishies.

Plus it's funny. Poke poke.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I thought the puns let him substitute his charisma for his strength, making his strength irrelevant?
Even then, we are looking at, say 1d6+6 damage on a successful hit. Against DR 10, that will do no damage 67% of the time.

It is also possible that Sabine has enough hit points that doing only 1 or two damage merits nothing more than a “poke”.


But but.. if Sabine is a demon, she's immune to electricity. He's a cleric. He should know that.
Knowledge (the planes) may be a cleric class skill, but the cleric has scant skill points to spend. Knowledge (religion), Concentration, and Spellcraft are usually the top priorities. And I don’t think Durkon gets much in the way of bonus skill points.

I am guessing that Rich may have forgotten that Sabine is immune to electricity, because she didn’t really need to engage in the “Double Evasion”. Only in-character reasons to evade rather than suck it up:
She was worried it might have a status effect along with the damage
She wants Durkon to keep trying to hit her in order to get him to waste future actions trying to hit her. He would not do so if he knew she was immune.
She and Nale have been waiting a long time to use “Double Evasion” and they finally got a chance, even if only Nale actually needed to evade.
Sabine generally doesn’t seem forward-thinking enough to engage in the first two strategies, so I’m gonna go with the third for personal canon (until such a time that official canon confirms or conflicts with it, anyway).

[Kazyan]

Notice that, in panel 4, Elan forgets to use puns, so he doesn't get his CHA bonus. It's plausible that he rolled a 1 with the only pun attack, dealing no damage.

[Douglas]

You're all forgetting something - Elan's charisma-to-damage ability requires him to spout a witty pun or catch phrase, which he didn't do. Thus, he's got nothing but base + weapon's bonus for his damage, which for a +3 keen rapier (I believe that's what Mr. Scoundrel said it was) is just 1d6+3.

[GSFB]

I am rusty with 3.5 and am primarily used to 3.0 - but since Elan's rapier is +3, shouldn't it bypass the DR regardless of if it is cold iron or not? I know in the case of Haley's attacks, they were all with arrows, and the arrows were probably not magic - with missile attacks, the magic of the bow is irrelevant and only the arrows count with regards to DR. But not so with the rapier - right?

[Starbuck_II]

You're all forgetting something - Elan's charisma-to-damage ability requires him to spout a witty pun or catch phrase, which he didn't do. Thus, he's got nothing but base + weapon's bonus for his damage, which for a +3 keen rapier (I believe that's what Mr. Scoundrel said it was) is just 1d6+3.

Right, so he can't hurt her unless he get a Critical.
Seems logical.


I am rusty with 3.5 and am primarily used to 3.0 - but since Elan's rapier is +3, shouldn't it bypass the DR regardless of if it is cold iron or not?
That is a Pathfinder rule not a D&D rule.
In D&D, you need correct type to bypass (cold iron/etc), Pluses don't help overcome except increasing damage.


I know in the case of Haley's attacks, they were all with arrows, and the arrows were probably not magic - with missile attacks, the magic of the bow is irrelevant and only the arrows count with regards to DR. But not so with the rapier - right?
Magic bows make arrows magical in D&D (for all purposes) but they don't stack.
So a +3 Frost bow with nonmagical arrows= +3 frost arrows, but +3 frost Bow with +2 arrows = +3 Frost arrows.

[Douglas]

That is a Pathfinder rule not a D&D rule.
In D&D, you need correct type to bypass (cold iron/etc), Pluses don't help overcome except increasing damage.
No, that's a 3.0 rule. 3.5 changed it so you need the specific material/alignment/whatever no matter what because the 3.0 rule made anything but DR/magic pointless since even basic magic bypassed it and everybody got magic.

Pathfinder changed it to a tiered system, where magic can beat the more specific kinds of DR but it needs a high bonus to do it. +3 beats cold iron or silver, +4 beats adamantine, and +5 beats alignment-based DR.

[Toofey]

I think elan lost the level in dashing swordsman

[Ancalagon]

I assume as well that Elan lost his charisma bonus due to the (temporary) loss of his Dashing Swordsman Levels.

He has a +3 Keen Rapier (given by Julio Scoundrel). He lost a lot of levels due to Enervation and kissing Sabine/getting drained by her, so his BAB probably sucks pretty much by now as well.
So the "Does not do damage" could also reflect he does not even hit her in a damaging way (a low BAB also means the "keen" ability of his rapier fades away).

A rapier does 1d6 damage + 3 enhancement bonus + str (as Elan cannot substitute Str for Cha without his PrC).

An "average" succubus has an AC of 19, I think we can throw more dex and at least a very decent, magical leather armour for Sabine on top of that. A +6 does not seem unlikely, it probably is more. No matter where Elans BAB is exactly, it's unlikely he hits with less than a 16 or 17. There go most attacks.
(Sabine does not seem to be even moving, so you can assume she does not have her dex bonus in some of the panels, yet that still leaves a 10 or so Elan needs to hit - 50% miss chance).

Even if he hits and assuming a str that gives him +1 or +2 he does 1d6+3+2 dmg per hit, that is 6 to 11 dmg. If Sabine has a DR of 10/x, he will only do damage on a six - and that is assuming a Str of +2 (12/13), which Elan probably does not have. If he only has a bonus of +1 or less (10/11), he cannot do damage at all besides on a critical hit (which are unlikely as Elan's BAB should be pretty bad at he moment).

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I assume as well that Elan lost his charisma bonus due to the (temporary) loss of his Dashing Swordsman Levels.
Negative Levels don’t affect class abilities other than high-level spellcasting. Other than the highest-level available spell slots, the only penalties are to skill and ability checks, attacks, saves, hit-points, and level-based die rolls. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) As long as the Charisma-to-damage ability doesn’t figure class level into the calculation (like, say, actually being Charisma-bonus or Dashing Swordsman level, whichever is lower), then he retains his ability.

So if we assume for a moment that that is not the case and that Elan has 7 negative levels, he faces the following penalties:
-7 penalty to skill and ability checks
-7 penalty to attacks and saving throws
-35 hit points
-7 penalty to level checks and other die-rolls that include his level in the calculations (such as spell-resistance checks or level-checks against Intimidate)
Lost his seven highest available spell slots, as if he had cast them.
This is all he has lost. He retains his full complement of bardic music and any dashing swordsman abilities that do not require a +1 or higher level to be calculated into a die roll.

[SmartAlec]

Why is Durkon using electric spells on a demon?

Maybe he's using electric spells on Nale.

[BlackestOfMages]

Maybe he's using electric spells on Nale.

that works too. sabine is carry nale, and energy resistance dosen't pass on

[Ancalagon]

Negative Levels don’t affect class abilities other than high-level spellcasting.

Apparently, such a drastic minunderstanding of the rules seems a bit unlikely so it seems more likely the poster Ancalagon meant the "ability to add Cha to the attacks". Please re-read with that information in the mind.

I'd not put it beyond rich to remove class-features entirely in level drains, since that is what actually makes more sense than the simplified rules for level drains. You have 13 bard levels, 1 dashing swordsman, 1 bard and lose 4 levels, I makes sense to subscract from top.

What the comic shows indicates to mit it actually worked this way here instead of how the rules propose it.


But but.. if Sabine is a demon, she's immune to electricity. He's a cleric. He should know that.
I assume he simply does not know that and uses one of his Favourite Spells.
And why should he know about demons? Clerics get knowledge about Undead with Knowledge(Religion) (and Durkon does not seem to have too much of that). There's no mechanic that teaches them about demons.

Of course, by now someone should have read stuff about Succubi, simply because one their their recurring enemies is one. I bet Vaarsuvius would have know, but that's nothing that'd be helping Durkon by now.

[Douglas]

Apparently, such a drastic minunderstanding of the rules seems a bit unlikely so it seems more likely the poster Ancalagon meant the "ability to add Cha to the attacks". Please re-read with that information in the mind.
That changes precisely nothing in Shhalahr's point. Negative levels, per the rules, would have no effect whatsoever on Elan's ability to add charisma to damage.


I'd not put it beyond rich to remove class-features entirely in level drains, since that is what actually makes more sense than the simplified rules for level drains. You have 13 bard levels, 1 dashing swordsman, 1 bard and lose 4 levels, I makes sense to subscract from top.

What the comic shows indicates to mit it actually worked this way here instead of how the rules propose it.
It is possible that Rich would ad hoc treat it as actually removing levels and all the abilities that come with them temporarily, but that's straying far enough from the actual rules that I think it's unlikely. He does break the rules fairly frequently, but it's almost always deliberate for a specific reason (a joke or better plot) or an honest mistake where he forgot or didn't know the actual rule. I don't think either is likely to be the case here.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

It is possible that Rich would ad hoc treat it as actually removing levels and all the abilities that come with them temporarily, but that's straying far enough from the actual rules that I think it's unlikely. He does break the rules fairly frequently, but it's almost always deliberate for a specific reason (a joke or better plot) or an honest mistake where he forgot or didn't know the actual rule. I don't think either is likely to be the case here.
This. All this.

The whole point of negative levels working the way they do is so that characters affected by them don’t have to stop in the middle of combat to figure out which class abilities they may or may not retain. They do not have to worry about it until they roll their save 24 hours later. It was a pretty big change from 2nd edition, where you did lose the level immediately, and is a big enough deal for a not-too-uncommon situation that I doubt the subtleties here were lost on Rich.

[Ancalagon]

That is correct but note that the rules are made for a "game" while we are facing a "story" here.

The rules in the game are made so the drained character does not become totally useless, the story might work differently. And from a story-point-of-view it makes much more sense for the Energy Drain to remove the levels entirely. You lose your level 14 that was a dashing swordsman? No, you do not just get -1 to BAB and saves, you lose your dashing swordsman entirely.

The comic does show Elan to be totally ineffective in the fight - despite his puns! - so I still interpret it the way I do. You can do it your way, sure. But I think that what we see in the comic does not reflect the actual rules (which make lost levels more harmless than they *should* be).

[Zherog]

And why should he know about demons? Clerics get knowledge about Undead with Knowledge(Religion) (and Durkon does not seem to have too much of that). There's no mechanic that teaches them about demons.

Knowledge (the planes) called. It wants to talk to you about demons.

(now, granted, it's unlikely Durkon has ranks in it. But my point is just that there is a mechanic to teach a cleric (and everybody else) about demons.)

[Ancalagon]

Knowledge (the planes) called. It wants to talk to you about demons.

Ahh, here hit the rules again.

Clerics, at least in my interpretation, are people who have clue on things, who know some things about undeath, the planes, theology, maybe philosophy (even if only from their god's point of view). I think their main stat supports that view. Wis. Which is nothing but "clue on stuff".
But, alas, how to do that with 2 + Int skillpoints?

Impossible, I say. D&D totally fails when you try to create a cleric who actually knows some stuff. Even if you afford Int 14 (which is not cheap in point buy if you consider clerics also need some melee-capability and maybe some charisma if you want him to talk to people about his god and right and wrong from a certain point of view) your non-human will get puny 4 skillpoints per level. One goes in Concentration.
Leaves 3 per level to distrubute. No sense motive, no bluff, no ride, no knowledge(x) (if you are fancy you afford knowledge(religion), what a gross idea for a cleric). And that is with a grossly high Int 14 (wave your melee-damage or your hitpoints byebye for this).

And no need for the aggresive undertone. Clerics do not get knowledge(the planes) for free, they are not required to get it, etc pp. et al. So some might have it but that Durkon does not have it is the norm. Also OotS is strongly centered on the prime material plane, so I'd consider knowledge(the planes) more some niche-knowledge and not something everyone who is half learned has in this world. Call Disconnected.

The rules totally fail to build a cleric who has clue (and still can do stuff). And beware if you want your character to have some "non-class-required knowledge" or "non-class-required skill" as "my character can also dance").

In this regard, the rules utterly suck so much that I only can cry. But they explain nicely why Durkon has no clue what "Hilgya is a cleric of Loki" or what "Sabine is a Demon" could mean. D&D clerics are pretty clueless due to their lack of skillpoints. Wizards at least can counter their sucky class by having a high Int to invest into something.

And no need for the aggresive undertone. Clerics do not get knowledge(the planes) for free, they are not required to get it, etc pp. et al. So some might have it but that Durkon does not have it is the norm. Also OotS is strongly centered on the prime material plane, so I'd consider knowledge(the planes) more some niche-knowledge and not something everyone who is half learned has in this world. Call Disconnected.

[rewinn]

:durkon: Me lightnin' whar directed 'gainst Nale, since if he be disabled, Sabine will take him to safety rather than continue tha combat.

:sabine: When Elan said "suck a bus" he thought it was some sort of joke, but for me, it's just another housekeeping task, so no bonus to his attack. He just doesn't have sort of dirty mind needed to make a succubus laugh.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I assume he simply does not know that and uses one of his Favourite Spells.
And why should he know about demons? Clerics get knowledge about Undead with Knowledge(Religion) (and Durkon does not seem to have too much of that). There's no mechanic that teaches them about demons.

Of course, by now someone should have read stuff about Succubi, simply because one their their recurring enemies is one. I bet Vaarsuvius would have know, but that's nothing that'd be helping Durkon by now.

Knowledge: The Planes on the Cleric skill list likes a word with you.

[VanBuren]

That is correct but note that the rules are made for a "game" while we are facing a "story" here.

The rules in the game are made so the drained character does not become totally useless, the story might work differently. And from a story-point-of-view it makes much more sense for the Energy Drain to remove the levels entirely. You lose your level 14 that was a dashing swordsman? No, you do not just get -1 to BAB and saves, you lose your dashing swordsman entirely.

The comic does show Elan to be totally ineffective in the fight - despite his puns! - so I still interpret it the way I do. You can do it your way, sure. But I think that what we see in the comic does not reflect the actual rules (which make lost levels more harmless than they *should* be).

Well that's fine and all, but if you're trying to make the case that the comic isn't following the rules on this point, then just be aware that the burden of proof is on you.

[thereaper]

Wizards at least can counter their sucky class by having a high Int to invest into something.

I would have taken you seriously if you had not said this.

[KillianHawkeye]

(a low BAB also means the "keen" ability of his rapier fades away)

Um... what?? :smallconfused:

No it doesn't.

[Ancalagon]

Um... what?? :smallconfused:

No it doesn't.

It does. To score a critical hit, you must hit with your threat range. You only hit automatically with a natural 20. So even if you have a range of 15-20, you only create a thread on a 20 OR if you would normally (BAB) hit with a 15 (16, 17, 18, 19).
You also have to confirm the threat into a critical hit by doing another attack roll and if you would hit that, it becomes a critical.

Now, if your BAB drops you can lose your ability to score critical hits, starting at the highest extra-threat-range (19 and goes down over 18, 17, 16, 15, ...) as you keep losing BAB.

Elan's BAB is not that high that he can afford to lose -7 and still expect to have a decent chance for criticals. Therefore, the more you lose BAB, the less you benefit from an extended threat-range of your weapon/feats, therefore the Keen-ability of your weapons fades and becomes less and less powerful as you lose levels.

That is what I said and that is what is true. It fades, I said. Not it is instantly dispelled.

[KillianHawkeye]

It does. To score a critical hit, you must hit with your threat range. You only hit automatically with a natural 20. So even if you have a range of 15-20, you only create a thread on a 20 OR if you would normally (BAB) hit with a 15 (16, 17, 18, 19).
You also have to confirm the threat into a critical hit by doing another attack roll and if you would hit that, it becomes a critical.

Now, if your BAB drops you can lose your ability to score critical hits, starting at the highest extra-threat-range (19 and goes down over 18, 17, 16, 15, ...) as you keep losing BAB.

Elan's BAB is not that high that he can afford to lose -7 and still expect to have a decent chance for criticals. Therefore, the more you lose BAB, the less you benefit from an extended threat-range of your weapon/feats, therefore the Keen-ability of your weapons fades and becomes less and less powerful as you lose levels.

That is what I said and that is what is true. It fades, I said. Not it is instantly dispelled.

Well, okay. Sure, he may not be able to capitalize on the effects of having a keen rapier, but that is entirely different from saying that the effect "fades away." The operative term being on the person wielding it rather than on the weapon itself.

[Ancalagon]

In practice and below the bottom line: Is the effect with drained levels as useful (or even available!) as with those levels?

[ ] Yes
[ ] No

Make your mark whereever you wish. The rest is argueing about semantics and personal interpretation of them that will not lead to anything and has no point at all.

But as last word for "argueing about semantics", one of the two of us simply wrong in regard to what "fade" means*. Unless you put your mark at "Yes" above, of course.
http://thesaurus.com/browse/fade

* And that is not me. :smallbiggrin:

[MesiDoomstalker]

In practice and below the bottom line: Is the effect with drained levels as useful (or even available!) as with those levels?

[ ] Yes
[ ] No

Make your mark whereever you wish. The rest is argueing about semantics and personal interpretation of them that will not lead to anything and has no point at all.

But as last word for "argueing about semantics", one of the two of us simply wrong in regard to what "fade" means*. Unless you put your mark at "Yes" above, of course.
http://thesaurus.com/browse/fade

* And that is not me. :smallbiggrin:

I think your wording was confusing. Something along the lines of "His Keen ability on his rapier would become less and less effective as he accumulates more Negative Levels." Using the word "fade" implies the magic itself is dissapearing along with Negative Levels, which is obviously not true.

[KoboldRevenge]

Well this is all combined with Sabine's Plot armor too right? :smalltongue:

But really it could be any number of things to logically explain it.

[KillianHawkeye]

I think your wording was confusing. Something along the lines of "His Keen ability on his rapier would become less and less effective as he accumulates more Negative Levels." Using the word "fade" implies the magic itself is dissapearing along with Negative Levels, which is obviously not true.

This is what I was trying to say. Just because something is not useful doesn't mean it isn't there.

[Psyren]

We don't know much about Dashing Swordsman, but we do know this; He gets to add Cha to damage IF he makes a witty remark or pun (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html) as part of the strike.

Given that he has a chance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0438.html) of failure (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0506.html) in doing so, this suggests that there is either a skill check or ability check involved - likely Perform (Comedy.) And skill checks/ability checks ARE affected by negative levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) even if vanilla damage rolls are not.

[Ancalagon]

Well this is all combined with Sabine's Plot armor too right? :smalltongue:

I would not bother about her plot armour, last time I looked, she did not have that much of it on. :smallbiggrin:

[VanBuren]

We don't know much about Dashing Swordsman, but we do know this; He gets to add Cha to damage IF he makes a witty remark or pun (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html) as part of the strike.

Given that he has a chance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0438.html) of failure (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0506.html) in doing so, this suggests that there is either a skill check or ability check involved - likely Perform (Comedy.) And skill checks/ability checks ARE affected by negative levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) even if vanilla damage rolls are not.

I assume it's based on whether or not the DM finds it funny.

[hex0]

Anyone think that Thor's Lightning also deals Good (or Sacred) aligned damage or Durkon has a feat that would let him do that?

[Gift Jeraff]

I'm thinking diabolic/daemonic/demonic immunities might be swapped around in the OOTSiverse. Lee is a confirmed devil (who have immunity to fire) yet shows signs of fire but not electrical damage in #668 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html). Granted there are several other ways to explain that (a goddess can overcome immunities, some of the burn marks are from her lightning breath, he simply didn't get hit by her lightning or acid gas attacks or she didn't use them, Lee's species of devil is an exception, etc.), but I wouldn't be at all surprised if devils are immune to electricity and demons are immune to fire in OOTS.

[Psyren]

I assume it's based on whether or not the DM finds it funny.

The DM plays the monsters, so in a way you are correct.